"On PS5 Pro in particular, the title is immaculate on a technical level. You can cap the frame rate at 30 or 60 frames-per-second, or uncap all the way to 120 (assuming your TV is up to the task)."
Exactly what all games should be, but Capcom have REALLY impressed with their technical standards, particularly Pro implementations, this year.
I've always been interested in this game, even though the demo didn't 'wow' me like I hoped it might, but supporting this sort of technical care just adds to my interest.
@ButteredCrumpet Just going on basics, I found it very interesting that when going up against framerate struggles, the PS5 managed to dip less and 'recover' faster than the Series X, with the Pro being not just able to achieve a higher framerate line (which you would expect), but to again dip less noticeably and 'recover' much easier than Base. To my experience, where PS5 took the significant lead over Series X (which as you say happened more often than not in the DF type videos I saw) it was in games needing more constant data streaming, but I'm sure there was a bit more to it than that!
I found all that you wrote interesting. I for one don't think the future lies simply in more 'grunt' - its a similar thing to manufacturing lines in that it doesn't matter how fast individual machines work, it only matters where your bottlenecks are, and where problems can occur.
It's nice to hear the other side, because I have always thought that Mark Cerny had the right ideas, and he has talked (at length lol) about a lot of what you have said.
PS I never disliked the look of PS5 - Though I do prefer the Pro and Slim model refinements (I don't know about slim as I never owned it, but heat removal from the Pro is a vast improvement too, and I am sure this heavily impacts the physical design). I certainly much preferred them to the 'black box", or old VCR look.
@ButteredCrumpet "an aim isn't a target always hit with anything in life" Lol - I think on one article I sarcastically said - Well I am aiming to be a multi millionaire next year, but it isn't going to happen!
I read what you said regarding framerate of the presentation and yes, I think this is a great cause for concern for those who think it will be acceptable. As you say, things will improve before launch, but if you are seeing all this on a curated video, when video naturally hides frame rate and pacing issues (as you are seeing the video not the raw game), then it does put a big question mark over what the game will look like at launch, even at 30fps.
"I think it's a gorgeous work of artistry, I don't feel this will play the way it was intended until PS6." Very well said - I get exactly what you mean.
Interesting what you say about PS6 launch date, but I respect what you have said and won't press further.
As to the rest - yes, I think you are 100% correct and the PS5 (maybe even Pro) is being treated like a Series S here. If PS6 was actually released (or close), I would not have an issue with this, and I think this will be what happens throughout an elongated Cross gen period, with low PS6 adoption due to the price.
I am by no means doing anything more than pure Layman guesswork from a few bits of information we know about PS6 - particularly info from Mark Cerny himself - but whilst PS6 does not seem to be a real 'powerhouse' on the face of it (from specs) compared to Pro, it really sounds like it may well work on a completely different level. I found MC's comments very interesting, and they have made sense with a few things you and others have said, that the main goal of the PS6 architecture is about running things FAR more efficiently, with less bottlenecks and things getting in the way. I think one area he highlighted was memory speed and throughput (discussing VRAM cost and limitations), and you (and others) have highlighted CPU usage (particularly efficiency with background work).
I was always a supporter of the existence of the Series S - from a selfish point of view I thought it helped keep a more 'premium' experience for PS5 and Series X. But, I do wonder how well a PS5 will cope in this sort of position once PS6 is out.
I just hope that PS6 has been designed with Framerates foremost in mind, and that 30fps only, is something we don't have to hear again. I have seen firsthand how big a difference PS5 Pro makes compared to PS4 Pro, and particularly the amount of heavy lifting PSSR2 seems capable of (most don't appreciate I also have a base PS5 still in my household), so I have a fair bit of faith in Mr Cerny.
@ButteredCrumpet I think you have very ably described how I feel.
If this was a tech demo, I would watch a 1hr presentation by DF with interest. But it's not - its a high profile game, released 1-2 years before PS6, and a form of hubris seems to have overtaken the project - a "look what we can do" attitude. I love to see lots of graphical touches, but only when they don't impact the enjoyability of a game - ie 60fps+, and a decent image quality (though I will say that PSSR v2 seems to me to be able to do an enormous amount of heavy lifting in regards IQ).
As I have said, this is bad precedent for other devs/publishers (and probably more the latter) to say "Well GTA6 was 30fps only".
I also think a LOT are going to be disappointed here - when they realise they can't tolerate 30fps as well on their new TV's; or buy the game, not knowing what fps is, and start to play it wondering why it feels like an unresponsive slideshow. But you can't be seen to be complaining about the all mighty GTA, can you?
However, there have been far too many rude, and bad faith individuals here recently, all over this subject and others, and it isn't the first time. (I am NOT referring to my interactions with @wildcat_kickz here).
People who enjoy 60fps are not the minority - 30fps is. Mark Cerny made it quite clear 75% of people CHOOSE performance modes (I said 70% off memory yesterday but checked after and I was 5% out). I'm not saying a lot won't make an exception, but it is not their preferred choice to do so.
If people can enjoy 30fps, I'm pleased for them, and hope they enjoy the game, but it boggles the mind why some come to comments sections to effectively insult people who want more than 30fps. As I have said (many times lol), 60fps isn't even a choice for a growing % of gamers.
One moment people want consumer choice with discs etc, but the next they are effectively campaigning to lose 60fps as an option - something that can only be damaging to every PS5 owner, particularly those who cannot upgrade to PS6 because of price.
Even 30fps players should beware, because I still think the chances of every game being a stable 30fps on PS5 once PS6 launches, have just dropped significantly. I'm not even convinced this game will be close to a stable 30fps (as you have described).
Finally, and definitely not directed at yourself, I think it truly outrageous when a few BLAME the PS5 / Pro hardware on this one. Only well over 100 million current gen consoles share a very similar CPU - IF you are going to release on console THAT is the hardware until PS6 arrives. End of story. I could not care less what PC CPU's are out there when it comes to games released on console - that is a different market.
PS I only understand the basics of how graphics and games work, and wouldn't profess to know more - I don't know the names for various techniques (or more than the very basics of how they work), but I do know how to look at a game and tell if I think it looks good. However, one thing that, to me, shows just how good a developer really is, is how well they can use much 'lower cost' techniques, but make it look like they are doing something far more impressive (just without the cost / hit to fps/IQ). Yes, you can always break the illusion if you look close enough, but that is what real 'magic' is.
@ButteredCrumpet @wildcat_kickz I am going to add though that my first comment was probably a bit short, but unfortunately that's how I am feeling on here today.
I might even give this site / comments sections a rest for a while as the behaviour of some is starting to ruin it in my opinion.
Too many with a "Well its OK for me so it must be OK for everyone else" type of attitude - I mean, some comments have clearly been written by people pleased that others who can only play/enjoy 60fps can't play the game.
There has also been a lot of name calling / completely unnecessary rudeness. Just across this and the article discussing performance we have had "snobbery" (I mean we are only talking 60fps here), "Posers", "virgin" (as a direct insult), "get a grip", "pompous pricks", and "losers" (not all directed at me I might add). I have reported most of these but none have been taken down as I write, which I find really sad to be honest.
I suppose I could have just written posts that said "Anyone who thinks 30fps is acceptable is a loser", but thats not how I think, or behave.
I'm not even getting started on how many PC and Xbox fanboys seem to come into the comments sections at times, or the behaviour from some in the articles regarding discs (I'm not talking about those genuinely upset by Sony's decision).
@wildcat_kickz
I don't mean this in a nasty way (that is not my intention at all), but you probably couldn't easily see how 'offensive' this is, as you can play it at 30fps, if you want to if course.
In terms of precedent, I am talking about this gen. Yes, games were 30fps in previous gens.
@ButteredCrumpet
You raise some good points as usual. I just don't think that any of the realism mechanics you pointed out in your previous post, which I had read, are worth the cut to framerate, particularly things like hair and cloth mechanics.
Unlike some, I do understand the very basics of what a CPU does (maybe not as well as yourself of course lol), and that we are not talking about simple resolution and tweaking of visual settings / fps optimisation here.
I was very interested as to what you had to say about the PS6 - my principal concern for PS6 is that the CPU will be capable enough to cope. Preferably, I would like to see at least 90fps become the norm next gen, reducing to 60fps as we enter the later years.
I understand the basics of what you say about reducing load from standard operations the CPU carries out, to allow it to focus more on other things, and I believe I watched an interview with Mark Cerny where he mentioned a bit about that.
Both
Now, if this was a cross gen title, which it probably should have been, I wouldn't be complaining (providing the PS6 version runs at 60fps of course) - in fact quite the opposite. From what I have read, the visuals need cleaning up a bit, but I imagine PSSR will do this very nicely.
@wildcat_kickz Yes, Sony analysed the data and found was it 70% pick performance modes, and that was some time ago now.
I'm also all for options - ie games having 30fps, 40fps, 60fps modes (with uncapping for 60fps), so that people can choose their preference. The only people who have their preference here are those that play 30fps modes.
If this game was released as a cross gen title, at 30fps on PS5, and 60fps+ on PS6 then I wouldn't have a problem with it, because the choice is there to upgrade to PS6.
I also think that 1) more people (than know it now) will have a problem with this when they actually start playing it, and 2) it sets a dangerous precedent for lazy developers / publishers who want to force a game out early (well GTA6 was 30fps only wasn't it so thats now acceptable).
@AI-Generation Yeah, it really does sound like this game should have released on PS6, where the hardware can hopefully handle all that they are trying to achieve (at 60fps or above).
@wildcat_kickz
I'm not arguing there - I think it likely is CPU related (though I haven't watched the footage as until it can run at 60fps I would be wasting my time).
This is a case where the dev teams ambition has exceeded their ability on current hardware (which includes well over 100 million consoles all running approximately the same CPU).
In other words, they have included too much that impacts the CPU, and knowing the limitations of those CPU's (which again, are all similar) they should have held back on some of the things they have decided to include.
For example Insomniac had to cut back on crowd and vehicle density before they added RT to the performance mode of SMMM and SM1Rm. They (R*) could also have used simpler mechanics that rely far more on approximation for things like crowd behaviour etc. Also, if the game includes RT, they could have used non RT lighting for a performance mode.
60fps as a standard (for current gen hardware) should never be broken, particularly with newer TV's, and they did this by failing at the planning stage most likely.
@Glider8 Its not you - the display tech on newer TV's including OLED''s makes lower framerates look worse/ more noticeable. Older TV's tend to hide the issue better, particularly older CRT sets. It's one of the reasons why I think that going back to 30fps in 2026 is unacceptable.
@RoomWithaMoose I don't know the names or types of art direction, but I do prefer it when games actually have an art direction (if that makes sense). I think it has to match the game.
Like you, I am not the biggest fan of hyper realism - though it can look good in racing games.
@TDHorizon I have owned Snes, Mega Drive, Jaguar, PS1, PS2, Xbox360, PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, PS5 Pro.
I used to be OK with 30fps as long as the framerate was stable (still much preferred if you got a game with higher), but that changed, over a very short space of time towards the end of last gen. I will add I knew very little about framerate back then. I nearly gave up on console gaming altogether until PS5 set its standard at 60fps.
@IllusiveMan R&C RA could run at approx 80fps a lot of the time, with RT (including reflections), and in a resolution window of 1080p to 1440p, all on a base PS5 if I remember correctly.
And if its not 60fps, none of those pretty visuals matter...
(And to anyone who thinks this doesn't matter if the graphics look nice, you could well be opening the door for other lazy devs to not bother with 60fps for the rest of this generation - and even worse than that after PS6 launches)
@rjejr Fair enough - it was a thought. I tend to prefer longer games, but sometimes you get a bit shorter game that has loads of replayability, and it sounds like this may be the case here (whereas excessively long games tend to have limited replayability, at least for me).
Why should I "blame" you for an all digital future? - I haven't bought a disc all generation. In fact I only just bought my Pro a disc drive because I managed to get one new at a VERY good price, and the only discs that will see is DVD's / Blu ray movies!
@Boucho11 I don't need to "listen to myself" - I am explaining something to you, politely (so that the moderators don't need to step in), in the hope that you are able to understand. Sadly, it looks like I was wasting my time in your case.
@Boucho11 @DETfaninATL @The_Jobbo
People don't need to "get a grip", and they aren't "posers" or "snob(s)".
Some people - myself and several people I know included, not to mention a large number of people I have discussed online with, CAN'T tolerate less than 60fps.
30fps causes headaches, and/or feeling very sick, with no adjustment possible.
Seeing as I used to be able to tolerate 30fps, it could easily be that you yourselves lose tolerance at some point (I am assuming you have tried 30fps recently so do actually know that you can still tolerate it, for now)...
Even if someone can tolerate it, doesn't mean they should - 30 (and 40) fps can still seriously reduce the feel and enjoyment of a game. Games are a hobby, to enjoy, and not inexpensive!
That said for a lot of people, including myself, you could give it to them for free, and they still wouldn't be able to play it.
I do agree with the point that people really should be consistent, and not give certain games a 'pass' - I won't be (giving this or any game a pass).
@cainhurst94 I agree with you. The gameplay reveal was a necessary first step, but this was by far the video that has me more excited.
I sort of wish the gameplay reveal had been released before the last SOP, leaving this for the SOP, or even included both - 1 at the start, and 1 at the end.
This is the number 1 game I'm looking forwards to this year. Onimusha I'm somewhat undecided upon yet.
(GTA6 can wait until hardware is released that can actually play the game at an acceptable frame rate, though by then there will probably be games I want far more.)
30fps (and 40fps) can literally be unplayable for some, and it is not as uncommon as some like to think, in fact I have spoken to a lot of people who are the same.
@zebric21 notes above that they will get headaches. I get headaches and feel sick less than 10 minutes in. There is no 'adjustment' to it.
60fps has been THE Standard for 6 years now - some will be affected by this who don't even know. I went from being able to tolerate 30fps to unable to tolerate anything less than 60fps over a short amount of time - and I knew very little about framerates. I have helped others, including what you would call 'casual' gamers - 1 was ready to pack in gaming altogether because it caused them headaches - they didn't know what framerate was and I changed their game to performance mode and problem solved.
The main causes appear to be newer TV display tech, age / life experience, and exposure to higher framerates.
@b1zarr0 There are some that I believe genuinely can't see much above 30fps, but it is rare.
However, I 100% agree with you that 60fps is the bare minimum that should be acceptable on current gen hardware.
There will however be those who think they can tolerate 30fps, but won't be able to, including some who don't even know what framerate really is. And what happens when 30fps becomes unstable 30fps? This is where developers with ambition above their capability with current gen hardware gets you.
@rjejr No game would get a 'pass' from me at less than 60fps - it is literally unplayable as far as I am concerned.
I went from being able to tolerate 30fps to not being able to tolerate anything less than 60fps in a short period of time - I wonder how many of those who play at 60fps and think they can still tolerate 30fps are wrong??
Also, how many of those who don't know what framerate is, will not be able to play this game?? (I didn't know much about framerate when I became intolerant to less than 60fps, and I know a few people who were the same)
The only thing I can remember having bought on 'credit' is my first house (ie mortgage). Otherwise, if I can't afford something (particularly something like a console or mobile) I go without. My first car cost less than a console does these days.
Buying on credit doesn't make non essentials like consoles and the latest phones 'affordable', it just shifts you into debt you need to repay later.
@Foxhound
No problem - I hope you enjoy the game - it is one of this generations underrated gems imo.
Also, the old 'get good' ( 'git gud' ) adage associated with Soulslikes isn't the whole story for modern games like Lies of P. Your build and tactics / exploiting enemy weaknesses can be just as important.
Edit: removed unintentional emoji (one day I will learn)
Hmm, not getting excited over this one until we see performance analysis. That said they did a great job with Cyberpunk on Pro, but they (once again) seem to be pushing things too far.
@Divergent95 Oh, don't get me wrong, some can be a bit painful to use or have lots of silly options (eg hair) but few sensible ones, but I still prefer (in a lot of game types, but not all) to have a character creator. I think it adds to the experience, and can make you more invested in YOUR character - something that can be lacking otherwise.
"who can be coaxed towards being a nice guy or a... well, a bit of a *****"
Hopefully a bit of both is also possible, without penalty. Ie some games hold back rewards for being either a saint or completely evil.
Sadly, from what I have seen, it looks like this game follows the tired trend of 1 or other.
@Oram77 Well, RE7 was in certain ways continued in RE8, so you may get your wish. Also RE9 ended with that unfinished business feel - though we will have to see if that is picked up in DLC.
@8th_Observer
I can see framerates very easily up to about 90fps, and can notice even 2fps drops. 5fps drops are very noticeable to me, and can make a game unplayable if sustained.
Unfortunately, video footage can have a tendency to hide the detail as what you will see predominantly is the framerate of the video, not the game. Games in real life look can look much worse than video footage of the same game.
@8th_Observer Recent gameplay footage is not useful for determining performance / framerate though (unless it's disasterously bad and hitches or stutters). Framerate analysis updates are really the only way to tell if issues have been fixed from a performance point of view. Bug fixing is sometimes easier as written confirmation is sufficient, and sometimes patch notes articles will have comments.
One of the funniest things you see if you read up is that when people ask 'Has X game's performance been fixed?' , some answer along the lines of 'I never saw a problem' or 'it was perfect for me' - probably the least helpful answers possible as those giving these answers have just proven they can't see performance issues in the first place!
@Voltan Sometimes, and this is more of a general point as opposed to being directed at this game, updated information is hard to come by.
If a game I'm interested in doesn't reach a certain standard of performance I won't buy it - I put it on a list and might look at it again if I find I have a gap and/or it goes on decent sale.
The problem is though that very few places re-analyse / reevaluate, and probably in over half of cases I end up clearing the game off of my list after its been there a while without ever knowing one way or another.
@HonestHick You have an awful lot of faith in Bethesda given their recent history - as I said, my guess is that they stand a good chance of being just another studio shuttered by Xbox once ES6 is released. I hope I'm wrong.
@HonestHick @ButteredCrumpet You know, there was a time I thought of Bethesda as one of the best studios, even though I lost hundreds of hours to a game breaking bug back in Skyrim way back on 360 - as hilarious as it sounds the bug was that 1 of the elder scrolls failed to work! (And they never fixed it).
But they have sunk so low in my opinion (both before and after Xbox bought them) that I just don't think there is any future for them. I watched reviews and analysis (eg Digital Foundry) of Starfield and just thought it sad that it was in the state it was in. I have no clue how much involvement they had in the Oblivion remaster, but that was a total train wreck.
Sadly, I think the fact they are working on Elder Scrolls 6 is the only thing keeping them open at the moment, and its release (and likely its dire state (bugs/performance) at release) will be their final act before closure.
I have started to wonder if the reason they have taken so long to make ES6 is thar they know they will be closed after (and if thats the case I can't really blame them).
Will it be exclusive - probably not, unless Xbox are desperate to lose a large chunk of its development cost - but at this point I don't think I would care, and I spent a LOT of time playing Oblivion and Skyrim back in their day.
@get2sammyb When we get there, please can you confirm in the review if this has the original and very iconic music! He-man just isn't He-man without it!
@NathanUC You can disagree all you like - I have directly quoted what Sony said in their announcement.
You will have an alternative on PlayStation - Sony have confirmed this, and they have to conform to the numerous anti monopoly laws. All this monopoly talk sounds almost like paranoia to me at this point.
I said nothing about PC and if you are using this subject to try and push PC, then you are wasting your time.
Comments 4,111
Re: Wolverine PS5 Is One of the Lowest Rated First-Party Sony Games of the Generation
Just read the review here, and watched the DF review, and that is all I need to know - Day 1 purchase (Pre order) for me.
Re: Onimusha: Way of the Sword (PS5) - Capcom Delivers a Masterclass in Samurai Action
"On PS5 Pro in particular, the title is immaculate on a technical level. You can cap the frame rate at 30 or 60 frames-per-second, or uncap all the way to 120 (assuming your TV is up to the task)."
Exactly what all games should be, but Capcom have REALLY impressed with their technical standards, particularly Pro implementations, this year.
I've always been interested in this game, even though the demo didn't 'wow' me like I hoped it might, but supporting this sort of technical care just adds to my interest.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@ButteredCrumpet
Just going on basics, I found it very interesting that when going up against framerate struggles, the PS5 managed to dip less and 'recover' faster than the Series X, with the Pro being not just able to achieve a higher framerate line (which you would expect), but to again dip less noticeably and 'recover' much easier than Base.
To my experience, where PS5 took the significant lead over Series X (which as you say happened more often than not in the DF type videos I saw) it was in games needing more constant data streaming, but I'm sure there was a bit more to it than that!
I found all that you wrote interesting.
I for one don't think the future lies simply in more 'grunt' - its a similar thing to manufacturing lines in that it doesn't matter how fast individual machines work, it only matters where your bottlenecks are, and where problems can occur.
It's nice to hear the other side, because I have always thought that Mark Cerny had the right ideas, and he has talked (at length lol) about a lot of what you have said.
PS I never disliked the look of PS5 - Though I do prefer the Pro and Slim model refinements (I don't know about slim as I never owned it, but heat removal from the Pro is a vast improvement too, and I am sure this heavily impacts the physical design).
I certainly much preferred them to the 'black box", or old VCR look.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@ButteredCrumpet
"an aim isn't a target always hit with anything in life"
Lol - I think on one article I sarcastically said - Well I am aiming to be a multi millionaire next year, but it isn't going to happen!
I read what you said regarding framerate of the presentation and yes, I think this is a great cause for concern for those who think it will be acceptable.
As you say, things will improve before launch, but if you are seeing all this on a curated video, when video naturally hides frame rate and pacing issues (as you are seeing the video not the raw game), then it does put a big question mark over what the game will look like at launch, even at 30fps.
"I think it's a gorgeous work of artistry, I don't feel this will play the way it was intended until PS6."
Very well said - I get exactly what you mean.
Interesting what you say about PS6 launch date, but I respect what you have said and won't press further.
As to the rest - yes, I think you are 100% correct and the PS5 (maybe even Pro) is being treated like a Series S here. If PS6 was actually released (or close), I would not have an issue with this, and I think this will be what happens throughout an elongated Cross gen period, with low PS6 adoption due to the price.
I am by no means doing anything more than pure Layman guesswork from a few bits of information we know about PS6 - particularly info from Mark Cerny himself - but whilst PS6 does not seem to be a real 'powerhouse' on the face of it (from specs) compared to Pro, it really sounds like it may well work on a completely different level.
I found MC's comments very interesting, and they have made sense with a few things you and others have said, that the main goal of the PS6 architecture is about running things FAR more efficiently, with less bottlenecks and things getting in the way. I think one area he highlighted was memory speed and throughput (discussing VRAM cost and limitations), and you (and others) have highlighted CPU usage (particularly efficiency with background work).
I was always a supporter of the existence of the Series S - from a selfish point of view I thought it helped keep a more 'premium' experience for PS5 and Series X. But, I do wonder how well a PS5 will cope in this sort of position once PS6 is out.
I just hope that PS6 has been designed with Framerates foremost in mind, and that 30fps only, is something we don't have to hear again.
I have seen firsthand how big a difference PS5 Pro makes compared to PS4 Pro, and particularly the amount of heavy lifting PSSR2 seems capable of (most don't appreciate I also have a base PS5 still in my household), so I have a fair bit of faith in Mr Cerny.
Re: New Marvel's Wolverine PS5 Trailer Breaks Down Gameplay Features, Accessibility Options, More
@rjejr
Well then, I will hope Santa (or 1 of his elves) brings you a copy of Wolverine for Xmas.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@ButteredCrumpet
I think you have very ably described how I feel.
If this was a tech demo, I would watch a 1hr presentation by DF with interest.
But it's not - its a high profile game, released 1-2 years before PS6, and a form of hubris seems to have overtaken the project - a "look what we can do" attitude.
I love to see lots of graphical touches, but only when they don't impact the enjoyability of a game - ie 60fps+, and a decent image quality (though I will say that PSSR v2 seems to me to be able to do an enormous amount of heavy lifting in regards IQ).
As I have said, this is bad precedent for other devs/publishers (and probably more the latter) to say "Well GTA6 was 30fps only".
I also think a LOT are going to be disappointed here - when they realise they can't tolerate 30fps as well on their new TV's; or buy the game, not knowing what fps is, and start to play it wondering why it feels like an unresponsive slideshow.
But you can't be seen to be complaining about the all mighty GTA, can you?
However, there have been far too many rude, and bad faith individuals here recently, all over this subject and others, and it isn't the first time. (I am NOT referring to my interactions with @wildcat_kickz here).
People who enjoy 60fps are not the minority - 30fps is. Mark Cerny made it quite clear 75% of people CHOOSE performance modes (I said 70% off memory yesterday but checked after and I was 5% out).
I'm not saying a lot won't make an exception, but it is not their preferred choice to do so.
If people can enjoy 30fps, I'm pleased for them, and hope they enjoy the game, but it boggles the mind why some come to comments sections to effectively insult people who want more than 30fps. As I have said (many times lol), 60fps isn't even a choice for a growing % of gamers.
One moment people want consumer choice with discs etc, but the next they are effectively campaigning to lose 60fps as an option - something that can only be damaging to every PS5 owner, particularly those who cannot upgrade to PS6 because of price.
Even 30fps players should beware, because I still think the chances of every game being a stable 30fps on PS5 once PS6 launches, have just dropped significantly.
I'm not even convinced this game will be close to a stable 30fps (as you have described).
Finally, and definitely not directed at yourself, I think it truly outrageous when a few BLAME the PS5 / Pro hardware on this one. Only well over 100 million current gen consoles share a very similar CPU - IF you are going to release on console THAT is the hardware until PS6 arrives. End of story.
I could not care less what PC CPU's are out there when it comes to games released on console - that is a different market.
PS
I only understand the basics of how graphics and games work, and wouldn't profess to know more - I don't know the names for various techniques (or more than the very basics of how they work), but I do know how to look at a game and tell if I think it looks good.
However, one thing that, to me, shows just how good a developer really is, is how well they can use much 'lower cost' techniques, but make it look like they are doing something far more impressive (just without the cost / hit to fps/IQ).
Yes, you can always break the illusion if you look close enough, but that is what real 'magic' is.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@ButteredCrumpet @wildcat_kickz
I am going to add though that my first comment was probably a bit short, but unfortunately that's how I am feeling on here today.
I might even give this site / comments sections a rest for a while as the behaviour of some is starting to ruin it in my opinion.
Too many with a "Well its OK for me so it must be OK for everyone else" type of attitude - I mean, some comments have clearly been written by people pleased that others who can only play/enjoy 60fps can't play the game.
There has also been a lot of name calling / completely unnecessary rudeness. Just across this and the article discussing performance we have had "snobbery" (I mean we are only talking 60fps here), "Posers", "virgin" (as a direct insult), "get a grip", "pompous pricks", and "losers" (not all directed at me I might add).
I have reported most of these but none have been taken down as I write, which I find really sad to be honest.
I suppose I could have just written posts that said "Anyone who thinks 30fps is acceptable is a loser", but thats not how I think, or behave.
I'm not even getting started on how many PC and Xbox fanboys seem to come into the comments sections at times, or the behaviour from some in the articles regarding discs (I'm not talking about those genuinely upset by Sony's decision).
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@wildcat_kickz
I don't mean this in a nasty way (that is not my intention at all), but you probably couldn't easily see how 'offensive' this is, as you can play it at 30fps, if you want to if course.
In terms of precedent, I am talking about this gen. Yes, games were 30fps in previous gens.
@ButteredCrumpet
You raise some good points as usual. I just don't think that any of the realism mechanics you pointed out in your previous post, which I had read, are worth the cut to framerate, particularly things like hair and cloth mechanics.
Unlike some, I do understand the very basics of what a CPU does (maybe not as well as yourself of course lol), and that we are not talking about simple resolution and tweaking of visual settings / fps optimisation here.
I was very interested as to what you had to say about the PS6 - my principal concern for PS6 is that the CPU will be capable enough to cope. Preferably, I would like to see at least 90fps become the norm next gen, reducing to 60fps as we enter the later years.
I understand the basics of what you say about reducing load from standard operations the CPU carries out, to allow it to focus more on other things, and I believe I watched an interview with Mark Cerny where he mentioned a bit about that.
Both
Now, if this was a cross gen title, which it probably should have been, I wouldn't be complaining (providing the PS6 version runs at 60fps of course) - in fact quite the opposite. From what I have read, the visuals need cleaning up a bit, but I imagine PSSR will do this very nicely.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@wildcat_kickz
Yes, Sony analysed the data and found was it 70% pick performance modes, and that was some time ago now.
I'm also all for options - ie games having 30fps, 40fps, 60fps modes (with uncapping for 60fps), so that people can choose their preference. The only people who have their preference here are those that play 30fps modes.
If this game was released as a cross gen title, at 30fps on PS5, and 60fps+ on PS6 then I wouldn't have a problem with it, because the choice is there to upgrade to PS6.
I also think that 1) more people (than know it now) will have a problem with this when they actually start playing it, and 2) it sets a dangerous precedent for lazy developers / publishers who want to force a game out early (well GTA6 was 30fps only wasn't it so thats now acceptable).
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@AI-Generation
Yeah, it really does sound like this game should have released on PS6, where the hardware can hopefully handle all that they are trying to achieve (at 60fps or above).
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@wildcat_kickz
I'm not arguing there - I think it likely is CPU related (though I haven't watched the footage as until it can run at 60fps I would be wasting my time).
This is a case where the dev teams ambition has exceeded their ability on current hardware (which includes well over 100 million consoles all running approximately the same CPU).
In other words, they have included too much that impacts the CPU, and knowing the limitations of those CPU's (which again, are all similar) they should have held back on some of the things they have decided to include.
For example Insomniac had to cut back on crowd and vehicle density before they added RT to the performance mode of SMMM and SM1Rm. They (R*) could also have used simpler mechanics that rely far more on approximation for things like crowd behaviour etc. Also, if the game includes RT, they could have used non RT lighting for a performance mode.
60fps as a standard (for current gen hardware) should never be broken, particularly with newer TV's, and they did this by failing at the planning stage most likely.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@Glider8
Its not you - the display tech on newer TV's including OLED''s makes lower framerates look worse/ more noticeable. Older TV's tend to hide the issue better, particularly older CRT sets.
It's one of the reasons why I think that going back to 30fps in 2026 is unacceptable.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@RoomWithaMoose
I don't know the names or types of art direction, but I do prefer it when games actually have an art direction (if that makes sense). I think it has to match the game.
Like you, I am not the biggest fan of hyper realism - though it can look good in racing games.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@TDHorizon
I have owned Snes, Mega Drive, Jaguar, PS1, PS2, Xbox360, PS4, PS4 Pro, PS5, PS5 Pro.
I used to be OK with 30fps as long as the framerate was stable (still much preferred if you got a game with higher), but that changed, over a very short space of time towards the end of last gen. I will add I knew very little about framerate back then.
I nearly gave up on console gaming altogether until PS5 set its standard at 60fps.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@Northern_munkey
"but mainly due to the fact I just don't want to"
And that is as good a reason as any - and no one should tell you otherwise.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@Steve_BTW
I would also add Horizon FW (same engine), and anything made by Insomniac this gen which have all managed 60fps or over with RT.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@IllusiveMan
R&C RA could run at approx 80fps a lot of the time, with RT (including reflections), and in a resolution window of 1080p to 1440p, all on a base PS5 if I remember correctly.
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
@DennisReynolds
Good for them - 30fps (or should I say not having 60fps) is still unacceptable in my book.
Edit: and according to Sony's own data 75% (probably higher now) CHOOSE performance if available. Why celebrate the removal of choice?
Re: Tech Experts Call GTA 6 'the Most Impressive Example of Real-Time Rendering We've Ever Seen'
And if its not 60fps, none of those pretty visuals matter...
(And to anyone who thinks this doesn't matter if the graphics look nice, you could well be opening the door for other lazy devs to not bother with 60fps for the rest of this generation - and even worse than that after PS6 launches)
Re: New Marvel's Wolverine PS5 Trailer Breaks Down Gameplay Features, Accessibility Options, More
@rjejr
Fair enough - it was a thought. I tend to prefer longer games, but sometimes you get a bit shorter game that has loads of replayability, and it sounds like this may be the case here (whereas excessively long games tend to have limited replayability, at least for me).
Why should I "blame" you for an all digital future? - I haven't bought a disc all generation.
In fact I only just bought my Pro a disc drive because I managed to get one new at a VERY good price, and the only discs that will see is DVD's / Blu ray movies!
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@Boucho11
I don't need to "listen to myself" - I am explaining something to you, politely (so that the moderators don't need to step in), in the hope that you are able to understand. Sadly, it looks like I was wasting my time in your case.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@Boucho11 @DETfaninATL @The_Jobbo
People don't need to "get a grip", and they aren't "posers" or "snob(s)".
Some people - myself and several people I know included, not to mention a large number of people I have discussed online with, CAN'T tolerate less than 60fps.
30fps causes headaches, and/or feeling very sick, with no adjustment possible.
Seeing as I used to be able to tolerate 30fps, it could easily be that you yourselves lose tolerance at some point (I am assuming you have tried 30fps recently so do actually know that you can still tolerate it, for now)...
Even if someone can tolerate it, doesn't mean they should - 30 (and 40) fps can still seriously reduce the feel and enjoyment of a game. Games are a hobby, to enjoy, and not inexpensive!
That said for a lot of people, including myself, you could give it to them for free, and they still wouldn't be able to play it.
I do agree with the point that people really should be consistent, and not give certain games a 'pass' - I won't be (giving this or any game a pass).
Re: New Marvel's Wolverine PS5 Trailer Breaks Down Gameplay Features, Accessibility Options, More
@rjejr
If it were 20 hours with a good NG+ mode, thats 40 hours, so $2 per hour - does that count?
Re: New Marvel's Wolverine PS5 Trailer Breaks Down Gameplay Features, Accessibility Options, More
@cainhurst94
I agree with you. The gameplay reveal was a necessary first step, but this was by far the video that has me more excited.
I sort of wish the gameplay reveal had been released before the last SOP, leaving this for the SOP, or even included both - 1 at the start, and 1 at the end.
Re: New Marvel's Wolverine PS5 Trailer Breaks Down Gameplay Features, Accessibility Options, More
This is the number 1 game I'm looking forwards to this year. Onimusha I'm somewhat undecided upon yet.
(GTA6 can wait until hardware is released that can actually play the game at an acceptable frame rate, though by then there will probably be games I want far more.)
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@HotGoomba
Sadly, it is not quite that simple.
30fps (and 40fps) can literally be unplayable for some, and it is not as uncommon as some like to think, in fact I have spoken to a lot of people who are the same.
@zebric21 notes above that they will get headaches.
I get headaches and feel sick less than 10 minutes in. There is no 'adjustment' to it.
60fps has been THE Standard for 6 years now - some will be affected by this who don't even know.
I went from being able to tolerate 30fps to unable to tolerate anything less than 60fps over a short amount of time - and I knew very little about framerates.
I have helped others, including what you would call 'casual' gamers - 1 was ready to pack in gaming altogether because it caused them headaches - they didn't know what framerate was and I changed their game to performance mode and problem solved.
The main causes appear to be newer TV display tech, age / life experience, and exposure to higher framerates.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@KawakiisaFraud
"We will never see anything like this again, because no other developer has the money and time to create such a mammoth project."
The problem is that SOME devs will look at this as an excuse that 30fps is acceptable so they don't have to put the work in...
What will all those who can't afford to upgrade to PS6 be getting out of their PS5's (once PS6 launches)? Will they even get stable 30fps?
This is a 'can of worms' no one really should want opening.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@b1zarr0
There are some that I believe genuinely can't see much above 30fps, but it is rare.
However, I 100% agree with you that 60fps is the bare minimum that should be acceptable on current gen hardware.
There will however be those who think they can tolerate 30fps, but won't be able to, including some who don't even know what framerate really is.
And what happens when 30fps becomes unstable 30fps?
This is where developers with ambition above their capability with current gen hardware gets you.
Re: GTA 6 Targeting 30fps on PS5, Undecided on Performance Mode
@rjejr
No game would get a 'pass' from me at less than 60fps - it is literally unplayable as far as I am concerned.
I went from being able to tolerate 30fps to not being able to tolerate anything less than 60fps in a short period of time - I wonder how many of those who play at 60fps and think they can still tolerate 30fps are wrong??
Also, how many of those who don't know what framerate is, will not be able to play this game??
(I didn't know much about framerate when I became intolerant to less than 60fps, and I know a few people who were the same)
Re: GTA 6 Netflix Extended Look Live Now - Here Are All the New Things We've Learned
@Theamazing1
I would prefer it to look like a PS4 game, using PSSR to clean up the image quality, and have it run at 60fps.
Re: GTA 6 Netflix Extended Look Live Now - Here Are All the New Things We've Learned
Still not interested in the slightest if its not 60fps.
If it's not, I will wait until its analysed on PS6.
Re: GTA 6 Extended Look Will Show Nearly 30 Minutes of Gameplay, Captured on PS5
@Enuo
Heard about this a short while ago - very sad.
Peter Cullen was a genius voice actor, and a very fun guy.
Re: Next-Gen Xbox Prioritises 'Affordability' as Rumours of Stupidly Expensive PS6 Continue
The only thing I can remember having bought on 'credit' is my first house (ie mortgage).
Otherwise, if I can't afford something (particularly something like a console or mobile) I go without.
My first car cost less than a console does these days.
Buying on credit doesn't make non essentials like consoles and the latest phones 'affordable', it just shifts you into debt you need to repay later.
Re: Protesting PS5 Players Now Plan Permanent Blackout, Meaning No GTA 6 or Wolverine
@Foxhound
No problem - I hope you enjoy the game - it is one of this generations underrated gems imo.
Also, the old 'get good' ( 'git gud' ) adage associated with Soulslikes isn't the whole story for modern games like Lies of P. Your build and tactics / exploiting enemy weaknesses can be just as important.
Edit: removed unintentional emoji (one day I will learn)
Re: Massively Upgraded The Witcher 3 Remaster Comes to PS5 in September, Free for Existing Players
Hmm, not getting excited over this one until we see performance analysis. That said they did a great job with Cyberpunk on Pro, but they (once again) seem to be pushing things too far.
Re: Crimson Desert Enhanced Edition Out Now on PS5, Featuring Story Improvements
@asdfghjklz
With those framerates I wouldn't say it's a particularly good demo lol.
Re: Exodus, the Promising Mass Effect-Style RPG, Takes Aim at April Release on PS5
@Divergent95
Oh, don't get me wrong, some can be a bit painful to use or have lots of silly options (eg hair) but few sensible ones, but I still prefer (in a lot of game types, but not all) to have a character creator.
I think it adds to the experience, and can make you more invested in YOUR character - something that can be lacking otherwise.
Re: Exodus, the Promising Mass Effect-Style RPG, Takes Aim at April Release on PS5
@Divergent95
I don't so much have a meltdown, but I do FAR prefer when games include a character creator. Personally, I think they add a lot.
Re: Exodus, the Promising Mass Effect-Style RPG, Takes Aim at April Release on PS5
"who can be coaxed towards being a nice guy or a... well, a bit of a *****"
Hopefully a bit of both is also possible, without penalty. Ie some games hold back rewards for being either a saint or completely evil.
Sadly, from what I have seen, it looks like this game follows the tired trend of 1 or other.
Re: PS5's Tides of Annihilation Replaces Jennifer English with Resident Evil Actress
@Oram77
Well, RE7 was in certain ways continued in RE8, so you may get your wish. Also RE9 ended with that unfinished business feel - though we will have to see if that is picked up in DLC.
Re: 'It Will Not Be Easy': Marvel Tokon Producer Talks Winning Back Burned PC Players
@8th_Observer
I can see framerates very easily up to about 90fps, and can notice even 2fps drops. 5fps drops are very noticeable to me, and can make a game unplayable if sustained.
Unfortunately, video footage can have a tendency to hide the detail as what you will see predominantly is the framerate of the video, not the game. Games in real life look can look much worse than video footage of the same game.
Re: 'It Will Not Be Easy': Marvel Tokon Producer Talks Winning Back Burned PC Players
@8th_Observer
Recent gameplay footage is not useful for determining performance / framerate though (unless it's disasterously bad and hitches or stutters).
Framerate analysis updates are really the only way to tell if issues have been fixed from a performance point of view.
Bug fixing is sometimes easier as written confirmation is sufficient, and sometimes patch notes articles will have comments.
One of the funniest things you see if you read up is that when people ask 'Has X game's performance been fixed?' , some answer along the lines of 'I never saw a problem' or 'it was perfect for me' - probably the least helpful answers possible as those giving these answers have just proven they can't see performance issues in the first place!
Re: 'It Will Not Be Easy': Marvel Tokon Producer Talks Winning Back Burned PC Players
@Voltan
Sometimes, and this is more of a general point as opposed to being directed at this game, updated information is hard to come by.
If a game I'm interested in doesn't reach a certain standard of performance I won't buy it - I put it on a list and might look at it again if I find I have a gap and/or it goes on decent sale.
The problem is though that very few places re-analyse / reevaluate, and probably in over half of cases I end up clearing the game off of my list after its been there a while without ever knowing one way or another.
Re: 'It Will Not Be Easy': Marvel Tokon Producer Talks Winning Back Burned PC Players
"It was so bad at launch that the game was quickly torn apart across social media"
These days, being 'torn apart' across social media just seems to be one of those things.
'Its the worse thing ever!!' Until 5 minutes time...
Re: Xbox 'Heard You', Purges PS5 Logos from Multiformat Game Trailers
@HonestHick
You have an awful lot of faith in Bethesda given their recent history - as I said, my guess is that they stand a good chance of being just another studio shuttered by Xbox once ES6 is released.
I hope I'm wrong.
Re: Xbox 'Heard You', Purges PS5 Logos from Multiformat Game Trailers
@HonestHick @ButteredCrumpet
You know, there was a time I thought of Bethesda as one of the best studios, even though I lost hundreds of hours to a game breaking bug back in Skyrim way back on 360 - as hilarious as it sounds the bug was that 1 of the elder scrolls failed to work! (And they never fixed it).
But they have sunk so low in my opinion (both before and after Xbox bought them) that I just don't think there is any future for them.
I watched reviews and analysis (eg Digital Foundry) of Starfield and just thought it sad that it was in the state it was in.
I have no clue how much involvement they had in the Oblivion remaster, but that was a total train wreck.
Sadly, I think the fact they are working on Elder Scrolls 6 is the only thing keeping them open at the moment, and its release (and likely its dire state (bugs/performance) at release) will be their final act before closure.
I have started to wonder if the reason they have taken so long to make ES6 is thar they know they will be closed after (and if thats the case I can't really blame them).
Will it be exclusive - probably not, unless Xbox are desperate to lose a large chunk of its development cost - but at this point I don't think I would care, and I spent a LOT of time playing Oblivion and Skyrim back in their day.
Re: He-Man's Bad Ass PS5 Brawler Now Launching in 2027
@get2sammyb
When we get there, please can you confirm in the review if this has the original and very iconic music!
He-man just isn't He-man without it!
Re: 'This Is Illegal': Stop Killing Games Movement Distances Itself from GTA 6 Leaks
@solocapers
"its not had any impact other than making the hackers some money on their memecoin"
Well, until hopefully they are caught, potentially put in prison, and fined. Then we can rename them CyberTurnip, because a Leek is a vegetable!
Re: Protesting PS5 Players Now Plan Permanent Blackout, Meaning No GTA 6 or Wolverine
@XenonKnight
Essentially, yes, I believe so. Or keep taking the loss.
Re: Protesting PS5 Players Now Plan Permanent Blackout, Meaning No GTA 6 or Wolverine
@NathanUC
You can disagree all you like - I have directly quoted what Sony said in their announcement.
You will have an alternative on PlayStation - Sony have confirmed this, and they have to conform to the numerous anti monopoly laws. All this monopoly talk sounds almost like paranoia to me at this point.
I said nothing about PC and if you are using this subject to try and push PC, then you are wasting your time.