Spider-Man PS4's Puddle Drama Is An Absolute Embarrassment

You've got to laugh, you couldn't make this kind of "drama" up.

And people wonder why CDPR was hesitant to show Cyberpunk 2077.

Pre Order canncceelllled

I thought it was just because the game was shown on PS4 Pro a lot and base PS4, naturally, would lack the fidelity and some effects.

Either way, yes, this is embarrassing. How dare a game not look as good as your mind wants it to. What is this, the Wii?

They changed a puddle?! How dare they? This is no longer the game I've been most excited for this year and is now firmly on my 'don't buy' list...

Ladies and gentlemen, it is finally time to dust off the hashtags and get #puddlegate trending, let Insomniac know we'll only take massive puddles in our AAA video games!

Or, you know, stop judging the quality of video games based entirely off of Youtube's compression algorithm and pre-release footage in an age where games have had graphics and framerate changes as a result of day-one patches.

Insomniac downgrading team at work:

My God this is embarrassing whoever is doing this type of stuff a puddle🦆🤔 😂😂😂

Sad trolls looking for straws to clutch. Nuthin to see here.

Wouldn't be an embarrassment if Insomniac didn't downgrade the whole damn scene.

@get2sammyb please tell me you're joking. The retail release definitely doesn't have the same shine as the 2016 trailer. Stop making excuses for Insomniac for them downgrading just because this is a PS exclusive. The scene got downgraded, has nothing to do with """""compression""""".

@DLB3 It happens every time. There are still people who swear on their lives that Uncharted 4 was downgraded.

OH MY GOD, THE PUDDLES ARE SMALLER

There's no doubt that the top one looks loads better, but it just looks like the bottom one is one a base ps4, nowt to cry about.

Like it's going to affect the gameplay?

@CK97's outrage is over 9000!

But seriously, who cares? Even if true, does it make the game less fun? Puddles? I'll be too busy saving that guy with some sick web-slinging action to care about the water on the floor.

Oh internet, you silly today.

i don't exactly know what kind of people are shouting that BS but i would not be wrong for saying it is the typical xbox and pc crowd.

on 1 hand it's a shame that they fall so low but at the other hand it's almost inspiring how "envy" can lead to spreading such low level dribble.

@get2sammyb just further proof of how dumb people can be, plus how easily and quickly some BS like this gains unnecessary exposure. The fact that Insomniac has to defend themselves is embarrassing. #therealfakenews

Am I the only one who kind of likes the release screenshot better? I can see more detail out the window in that shot, like the trees because there's less light glare.

In that E3 shot Spider-man looks greased up. Like he's got to save this guy fast and then get to a tanning booth to recharge his spandex.

God things like this annoy me so much, always makes me wonder just how many games/consoles these type of people miss out on over their obsession to only buy/play the most graphically impressive titles, god forbid they put gameplay before graphics lol

@get2sammyb I thought this was a joke at first haha. People are so paranoid and gullible

OmG DoWnGrAdE pre order cancelled and buying an xbox!

But seriously the first one does look a bit better, in particular in Spidey himself, and I'm sure it's not just the time of day that made it change! Probably 4k pro vs a base ps4 or the second screenshot is compressed and ofc not official!

@Toadie you just discribed the hardcore pc crowd

no offense to them but they are the kind of people who would give a game only a 6 because it doesn't have 60fps or because it doesn't have the hyper visuals and 8k.

We live in a graphics-obsessed age. Look at some of the backlash after the Cyberpunk demo was released: people saying it didn't look as good as they hoped/imagined, graphically (with no thought to the gameplay). It's childish and I'd frankly welcome a ban on early game footage

@jdv95 Just look at steam reviews. I've seen games downvoted because they happened to experience a crash (without detailing their specs for comparison)

@ShadowofSparta
also the reason why i don't rely on metacritic to tell me the overall score.
way to many people are trolling and giving a game a low score because it is not on their platform.

This is what i had about gaming in the 2000's. Its all about the puddles. In the 1980's we were lucky if a game had a puddle. A 16bit puddle.

@NoxAeturnus but they promised real-time dynamic puddle effects in 24K at a precise 92fps. Clearly this has been reduced to a pathetic 76fps.

Spiderman himself looks a bit crap, so do a lot of the details look different. Oh well.

...I mean there is a clear difference in the screenshots you have provided? The E3 one clearly has more shadows enabled, much better lighting effects, and the puddles do reflect more than in the second screenshot. It's not really a matter of opinion, the screenshots are vastly different. It's nothing to do with compression.

7.8/10
Not enough Water.

@jdv95 haha yeah i guess, i don't understand the mentality myself, but then i regularly jump from console to console, i'm currently playing Doom on Switch, Sly 2 on PS3 and Secret Agent Clank on the PSP lol

I find it funny that for some that would be impossible to do, probably the same people who immediately ditch a console the second a next gen machine launches haha

@adf86 Well said, that certainly puts all this into perspective

While I'm not too fussed as the game doesn't interest me, the 'release' image does look terrible compared to the E3 version. Zero reflections, less shadows, cheap murky fog to hide draw distances and poorer colours.

The bloke is talking absolute tripe about that being identical besides a puddle size.

Look at the wire mesh under spider mans armpit, nothing to do with the puddle or time of day, the texture is poorer.

Wish I had a fraction of some peoples free time, I choose content and campaign length over visuals everytime. What a bunch of lifeless dong bongers.

@get2sammyb Atleast ps4 owners have a game to complain about......

@ShadowofSparta Cyberpunk's gameplay looks pretty unoriginal honestly! Press that saw the gameplay made it sound waaaay better

@mantralux
I'm no expert but it's common sense that changes =/= downgrade. At the time Insomniacs did publicly say the suit was way too shiny and it will change. Light, reflection obviously change too with time of day.
Like people believe less water would improve performance maybe too? I personally found weird there was so much water to start with.
Point is most people have no idea what their talking about and should check out DF report on the full game rather than judging a picture

@JJ2 This article was the first I heard about it...I'm just talking about the screenshots being vastly different, I'm not really fussed about the size of the puddles. There is definitely a reduction in graphics quality, especially when it comes to shadows and lighting.

Fans can be real dangerous when it comes to this stuff.

@CK97 @get2sammyb pretty sure I’m going to take insomniacs word over some rando who has no clue what he’s talking about. For arguement sake let’s say the game was downgraded does it really matter when it still looks absolutely phenomenal

@Omnicron saying it looks terrible is absolute hyperbole and why developers don’t like showing games off because everyone is an armchair developer who are all master game developers who just so happen to be out of a job atm lol

If the biggest complaint about the game is puddles, then this game is going to be fantastic.

They're probably salty Xbone fans that are trying to make the game look bad

Wonder if the same people still play Minecraft and 16-bit games.

And that's why CDPR didn't want to show us the Cyberpunk demo

With great puddle comes great responsibility

@GKO900 I guess xbox fans know puddles better than anyone considering they've spent the last five months playing in one.

People don't realize game is even more realistic than what they are asking for..... the puddle evaporated I mean, come on it's been sitting there since E3.
I'm still buying the game !

Gamers are pathetic.

@mantralux you do realize that if the developer changed the time of day for this part of the game that the shadows and lighting effects will change as well. And compression can make a difference since we don’t know what device the “downgraded” pic could have been captured and reproduced with. People need to just calm the F down and wait until Sept 7th and find out for themselves.

This is terrible. I might as well just play Spiderman 2 on my Gamecube. How can game companies get away with these DAMN LIES. I'm taking some paracetamol and going to have a lie down.

Too bad everyone who's been shouting were driven by their inner fans, and fans are as antonymous to the feeling of shame as they are to any other facets of human decency and morality. A person can come to regret their words and actions; addiction, greed, parasitic entitlement and the mentality they combine to spawn never will.

And as for embarrassing sights, indeed, the only sight more embarrassing than fans spamming fanbrained pseudocritique is fans pretending to have knowledge of and competence in the matter they're addressing while at it. And their only reaction to the exposure of this inconsistency is abusing the Bernard Shaw quote with typical zero regard for its context, meaning and applicability.

Thanks for common sense in this article, at least, and for the reports of the team standing up for their work and kicking the card houses of this "visual downgrade analysis" down. Cry them a puddle, gamers.

It's obvious I'd just be talking to a bunch of sheep if I kept an argument going, so here's the second to last thing I'ma say on this before I call it quits.

The scene got downgraded, plain and simple, and no amount of Insomniac damage controlling will fix that. I don't care too much the downgrading or the Puddlegate conterversy, as the rest the game looks great visually and it still looks fun to play, I'm just pressed that Insomniac are lying to y'all faces and you're all going along with it. But hey, that's what being a fanboy is all about, so have fun living in your own little world's guys. Hope you don't end up hating the game before you even finish.

It is a big downgrade on a technical level. It may just be a change in puddle size but it's also a change in the amount of reflections on screen as well. If you look at the top image, you see how the buildings and men are reflected in puddles which adds a LOT more complexity to the scene and therefore by removing a LOT of that, this is a downgrade!!!

Spider-man's suit is also more matte and that also makes the image look a lot more flat - along with the lack of the puddle and reflections too. That also makes the image look like quite a downgrade...

I'll wait to see the game for myself, but comparing the top photo to the bottom just from a phone, the top photo looks drastically better in multiple areas.

@get2sammyb I don't need a damn access code to the game to know it's been downgraded lmao. My eyes work just fine and the screens, compressed or not, paint a clear image that Insomniac were too ambitious in 2017 and had to scale back on that scene. But you'll never admit that– that's why you work here.

From sh!t like this, to the Madden incident, to whining about SJWs, I swear the gaming community at large has become a complete joke and parody of itself.

Puddle doesnt botger me thst much but looks like less polygons on spiderman. In thr first imsge he looks bigger and muscular. Either that or its a crap photo.
Sane as always thlou gsmes are rsn thtough pc to look better but to be graphics are fourth. More importsnt is gameplay and story

well the weathers been hot maybe the puddle dried up

@CK97 why are you attacking @get2sammyb? He didn’t attack you. There is no need to take a personal shot at someone because they disagree with you and agree with the developer, who in this case has a great reputation and likely don’t want it tainted.

@adf86 don't respond.

when they have to resort to terms like that you know they have nothing of worth to add to the discusion anymore.

@Sarfa

But that’s not the point. Gamers are spoiled AF nowadays. These “gates” pop up constantly as the gaming community finds every little thing to cry about. I don’t get how a puddle can cause controversy. Hell, if Insomniac had kept the puddle in the fight scene but didn’t add an effect of someone slipping while fighting that too would have cause an uproar.

One great game. Full stop.

I feel bad for Stevenson. I seen him reply to so many people and they talk to him like he has no idea what he's doing, when he worked on the game.

@kyleforrester87 opinions and stuff.

@adf86 oh but i don't think it's the playstation crowd making that stupid downgrade claim,and i don't think that CK97 is a playstation gamer either since he just goes allong with that false stupid claim and even insulted a PS site staff member by saying that sammy's argument is idiotic and that's why he works on a PS site.

i think he is just xbox fan or pc fan.

I've seen plenty of games that look average one minute then look amazing the next. Insomniac's own InFAMOUS Second Son is an example...the flat, dull look of a foggy day can suddenly transform into the shimmering beauty of a light- and water-drenched sunset.

@keihtg Just a quick point, Sucker Punch made Infamous. Not Insomniac.

@Enuo DAMMIT! I did it again, haha...thanks for pointing that out. I keep getting those two devs mixed up because of the outward similarities between this game and InFAMOUS (namely just that nice-lookin' open world cityscape).

At first it seems like a bit of a downgrade for us with no insights on game code/inner workings. Ligthing does not look as good in the release shot. Even accounting for "different time of day" and "puddle size"... the difference is there. Anyway, if the change is just an artistic choice , then the release game will at some point look as good as the early shot. Games are not good because of graphics, but this kind of talk is commonplace , remember Uncharted4 that had similar differences with lighting etc. In the end gameplay is king.

What exactly is the subject? Today's gaming community is so dull. My son complains about fps. I enjoyed bioshock dead island wolvenstein and teraway recently. He plays fortnite. Enough said

In fairness, the trickery from Aliens: Colonial Marines demo to actual may have a few people skeptical about whether this downgrade stuff happens, I would say it has happened here, but Aliens had massive differences compaired to the bit of lighting and shadows difference we see before us.

As a Nintendo fan, I can't really argue about graphics, I perfer gameplay anyway and this looks like it's going to be one hell of a ride!

@AFCC yeah I agree. It looks fine, nothing mind blowing like people made it out to be.

A game with dynamic weather and lighting is just going to look different from playthrough to playthrough.
THAT'S WHAT DYNAMIC MEANS!!!

The people who started this crap are mostly Xbox fanboys, they have done this for every big ps4 exclusive. Trying to disrupt or downplay the game just before its release, but time and time again they have been proven wrong. Quite pathetic.

@Cordeceps it’s all they have since there’s nothing for them to play 😂

@shafedog247 So true.

@Cordeceps
I think you’re correct about that. Like, the people I saw making the most fuss about the cross-play thing were people who play games on Switch and XBOX One. It’s done to stir up controversy and hatred for the competition.

It's usually system war, there's downgrade controversy for every big ps4 exclusive before launch, horizon have it, god of war have it, and its always wrong. Sony is on a roll this year and some people just can't take it lol.

And yeah, the second pic is clearly from youtube compression, I don't think I ever see that kind of blurry low resolution pic on ps4 games.

@jdv95 Yeah, james stivenson (from insomniac games) on twitter even say there's collaboration to spoil spider-man on reddit that plan to spoil spider-man story, its kind of sad that some people go to great lenght to spoil others people fun. If you look on forums it always ps4 exclusive that have this controversy, and its always wrong.

@3MonthBeef Insomniac already come clean though, there are no downgrade, it's different time of the day (they change the sun placement in that scene), spider-man have less "shiny" texture because people think the 2017 spider-man is too shiny, and lastly, the second pic is a low res pic from youtube. You can make any game looks bad if the source is blurry youtube video.

Sadly, it’s no surprise nowadays that fanboys harass gaming developers on Twitter, even so some of them already left the social media. The trolls are attacking Insomniac and even Marvel because they can’t play the game, I really don’t need to say what fanbases are doing this. The pc community is also attacking Rockstar because Red Dead Redemption 2.
That’s another reason why many really don’t want crossplay, I would never want to play online with these scum.
It’s also no surprise that the usual suspects are attacking Spider-Man here since the release trailer announced weeks ago. They always like to remember us that they aren’t interested in the game, but they are always bashing the game in every article related to it. Trolls gonna troll, I guess.

@jdv95 Xbot trolls are really fast to claim downgrade when a new exclusive made by Sony is coming, but they ignore facts like their own weak line-up of “exclusives” (these games are really not exclusives because it’s also on PC).
Imagine seeing another device having Spider-Man and you can only play...Crackdown? 😅

Xbox games are so irrelevant that nobody cares about it, even MS needs to push them on their monthly service because people don’t buy it.

I thought this game has a dynamic rain system and if so would not every scene look different every time after it rained? Spider-Man looks damp in one pic and dry in the other.

PUDDLES!!!!

@get2sammyb I don't believe that they are lying but whatever the reasons were, there is definitely a variance in the two scenes and I feel being let down a bit. I would really want the same polish they showcased in E3. Its a game breaker for me until Insomniac makes some improvements.

I got bigger problems than puddles. Like 1 ply toilet paper.

@CK97 Go away mate you are just a sad troll. 😁

I know you played the final build already you did not get your stuff of YouTube ofcourse. 🤫

@BAMozzy
The idea that they removed some puddles to improve the performance based on this single scene is ridiculous. It would need to be demonstrated on the full game with many examples and I know there r lots of water in the game.
The whole blown out based on a single pic is just silly. Besides, why would you want so much water in this scene? Was there a flood or something? Should it be looking like a swimming pool?

Also it was explained many times that the suit is different and in no way is a downgrade.

Downgrade or not, I don't care. The game looks awesome and I can't wait to play it.

@lixei32 Its a sad time for gaming Indeed. 😢

@get2sammyb
It's not the greatest source because it's just a small sample in the grand scheme of things but once the game was made available to pre-order on Amazon U.S. it shot straight to no. 1 on the best sellers. It's probably going to sell a few copies.

@BAMozzy To be fair everything that is negative about Playstation its something you jump on.

You can compare puddles while i play game the good day sir. 😜

@PS_Nation
I think a lot of people are just not using their brains and think less pleasant to their eyes means downgrade. Attacking the devs thinking they know better based on a scene is just plain idiotic though.
For my part I trust the professional at DF and their expertise. I'm sure the game looks sensational.

Drama is not being able to feed your family not a video game some people need to reassess their priorities

@JJ2 Regardless, it is still a technical downgrade over the original scene. Whether its more realistic or not, whether its more in keeping with the time of year or whether it was downgraded specifically for performance is debatable and NOT what my point was about!

My whole point - hence I used the word 'technical' downgrade, was that it is a 'downgrade' on the complexity and demand on resources than the previous scene because of the more complex reflections that the puddles give. As for whether the suit is different or not, the less shiny it is, the more flat and plain this scene looks - especially without the reflective puddles.

@Flaming_Kaiser to be fair, the only time you ever comment on anything I say, its to defend Sony like an over-zealous fanboy whenever my 'non-bias' posts have something you see as a 'negative' on Sony. Believe it or not, they are not perfect and certainly not the 'best' in EVERY area, so there are areas and things that can be improved.

As I said, this is a big technical downgrade on this scene compared to the original presentation. Whether its 'better' for the overall game or not, or just 'artistic' changes rather than necessary for performance, its still a downgrade on the original. Its not because this is a Sony game as I would say the same regardless of whether its a Sony, MS, Nintendo or 3rd party studio game. However you would defend Sony games and criticise MS if this was a MS Exclusive because you have double standards.

It won't stop me playing my Collectors edition either and you won't stop me from being unbiased and impartial - which may mean that some comments will be negative to Sony some times!!

I don't get the drama and wouldn't have bought it up unless an article like this did....so..it does look downgraded. If both images are compressed, then they are both being judged fairly. Doesn't bother me, but its hard to argue that the release image is at the same level of fidelity.

@Flaming_Kaiser You're right, he is the same guys who thinks that Xbox "exclusives" (also available on PC) are great. So, yeah...xD

@BAMozzy
Nope.
Less demanding scene, if ever it is which I'm not convinced anyway, does not mean downgrade which is something purposely made on the whole game. You d have to use another term than 'technical' downgrade.

Just let the game speak for itself.

All the trolls and haters Will shut up when they See how good the game sells.

Also it is because of this hatred and elitism that rockstar does not want to release red dead redemption 2 On pc since they and take 2 realy don't like their master race and modding policy. So let them keep hating and trolling,maybe they Will end up having no dev wanting to support them anymore.
(Ps4 brings in the most money anyway)

The two images do have noticable differences but it's quite clear that the second image is of a lower quality compared to the first. It's definetly more pixelated. Either way the game looks fantastic and I can't wait to play it. Maybe the first image is a PS4 Pro image? I actually don't know but either way I shall be getting this day one regardless. Also the position of the enemie shadows could indicate that it's a different time of day. So we could be looking at a morning screenshot vs afternoon. Again just guessing.

@kyleforrester87 meh.

could say the same for you for acting like you are better then us because you are not interested in spiderman and Will play a classic/Jrpg instead. (Don't say it was a joke because you have been mocking this game before)

So we all have Some flaws about us and so do xbox/pc fans and you.

@kyleforrester87
How can you know Spider man game is not that good? How can you even form an opinion?
On a side note, in my experience the first guys calling others fanboys are often very biased themselves, and sometimes the very thing they call others for

This comment section also gets a pushsquare seal of quality

@LaNooch1978 What the hell are you talking about? At least explain it properly or send a link, because I really don't know what you are talking about.
I don't even know you to be honest.

@kyleforrester87 Oh, again trying to bash the game? For someone not interested, you sure spend a lot of time commenting in articles related to Spider-Man.

@LaNooch1978 Seriously? I can't believe that you really believe that I was serious when I said "wanna fight bro, come at me bro" to @Enuo. lol! This is a meme mocking the dudebros, come on now. I talked to Enuo recently here on the comments and it's always friendly conversations. Btw, he is also excited for the game.

Now you are talking about my avatar. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Insomniac, so what?
You're really reaching trying to protect your buddy.

@kyleforrester87
Oh well. Good talk haha

@JoeBlogs I really don't know where you drew that conclusion from at all. All I said that the scene complexity and technical requirements for the first scene is much more demanding and that the 2nd is a downgrade from that. The fact that the puddle is much smaller and therefore reduces the amount of reflections - which are much more demanding than just a textured floor, is a downgrade on the demands on the CPU and GPU.

Whether that was done to improve performance in that area or done for more artistic reasons is debatable but it still doesn't mean that the scene itself isn't a technical downgrade regardless. I never once said that this affects the game-play and now the game is 'rubbish' because of this too - in fact, if it was done to improve performance - especially in combat where the extra reflections will be demanding in motion, it will be better to have a locked (or at least very consistent) 30fps rather than be far more inconsistent with bigger drops as its much more important to have that consistency in frame rate than whether or not their is more/less reflections.

As I also stated, I am still looking forward to getting my Collectors Edition that I pre-ordered. I never once said that visual downgrades - regardless of whether its for technical reasons, over ambition in the early stages of development or even just for artistic reasons mean that a game is suddenly gone from being a 'must have' to being 'rubbish' so I really don't know where you are drawing those conclusions from. Yet again another 'fanboy' defending everything 'Sony' and taking everything personally instead of looking at was actually said. I also never accused Insomniac from lying either as they could have just changed the scene to be more in keeping with the season the game is set so that the amount of water is more realistic to that time of year rather than to maintain consistency in frame rates but its still a technical downgrade on the scene complexity compared to the original.

The Witcher 3 also had a visual downgrade over the initial presentations compared to the final release - it certainly didn't stop it becoming a great game and my favourite game this generation. Other games, like Watchdogs, the Division etc also had visual downgrades too - some certainly for technical reasons and over ambition at the start - others maybe more for artistic reasons - like time of day which affects lighting, shadows and even atmosphere but these are incredibly minor in the overall scheme of things. The game-play is far more important and I am sure that every gamer would accept these downgrades if the game itself delivers on consistency, story and playability - things that are far more important than the amount of reflections/puddles in a scene changing...

@LaNooch1978 I'm sorry but can't drink a Coke, because I'm preparing for the big fight against Enuo. /facepalm

I think it's a graphical change like how Xenoblade Chronicles 2 had, not necessarily a downgrade. Although, the change would be kinda the opposite: XC2 was shinier and Spiderman is less shiny. XC2 has more detail to the characters in a anime-esque way. I don't know how to post pictures, but I'd post the shot I have if I did.

@jdv95 Exaclty, it's also funny the usual suspects calling us and even comparing us with the people who HARASSED developers on social media. It shows well their priorities too.

Regardless of this particular case, by now gamers should be well aware that due to various reasons games may end up looking slightly different (often for the worse) than during earlier stages of development. This downgrade hunting is really getting old and unless it's a blatant case of false advertising we should all just move on with our lives, especially since most of the "downgraded" games end up looking amazing anyway.

Preorder cancelled????? Never preorder software just hardware. But any wayyyy
Resistance: Fall of Man trilogy veteran here I expect the sane quality from this game! That is pure AWESOMENESS!!! THANKS

Downgrade or not, it's still a great-looking game. Besides, one single screenshot is not enough to claim the developers are lying about their explanation. Too many gamers today have a habit of jumping to conclusions.

Who I blame for generating this pointless drama? click-bait journalism, "game critics", hyped-up console kids and teens, and the ever-present PC Masterrace folk.

@get2sammyb kudos for taking a stand. Wish the social media whiners would get a life. Its pathetic.

well devs only have themselves to blame for years we have screen shots from different versions on case not the one your buying fake trailers and screen shots. Games being bugger all like the demos etc etc. So maybee we are all sick of being screwed over by the gaming industry. So maybee they should stop being a lying bunch of money grabing ffffffffffffffff C%$^$%^£ts

... every Insomniac game has been burned, PS4 thrown out of the window, every pre-order cancelled - I'm only playing on my Panasonic 3DO and 'escape from monster manor' from now on... quality you can trust.

OMG OLOLOL
Pre-order NOT canceled

@JoeBlogs They could be saying its not a downgrade because it was an artistic choice rather than 'needing' to change the scene's complexity, resolution or geometry for performance reasons - which is often the reason that downgrades occur and are seen as 'negative'. It still doesn't stop it being a 'technical' downgrade on scene complexity though which is what I am saying. They could be saying its not a downgrade because its their decision to change the scene for whatever reason and may even improve the way the game plays because its now less complex and therefore not a 'downgrade' but an optimisation of that area. Downgrade has implications of being overall worse but if their decision actually improves performance then its not a 'downgrade' in their eyes.

Even if its a change due to the seasonal weather that the game is set in, and therefore not a 'downgrade' because its now much more in keeping with the time of year and more 'accurate', its still a 'technical' downgrade over the originals complexity. Point is both Insomniac and I could still both be correct without accusing the other of lying. I am not insinuating that Insomniac are lying as they may have their reasons for stating its not a downgrade (because its more accurate to the season, because its enhanced the playability of that area, because it was an artistic rather than necessary change etc), but that still doesn't stop it being a 'downgrade' on scene complexity which is all I said. Therefore both of us can be correct without accusing the other of lying. I am sure if you were to ask any dev whether the original is more complex and demanding because of the extra reflections - especially in motion when the point of view and therefore reflections would need to be recalculated to maintain the accuracy of the scene, they would agree that the later is less complex and less demanding and therefore a technical downgrade over the original. You also don't have to worry about 'splashes' and ripples during any combat in those so it is a technical downgrade - whether or not it was needed for performance reasons.

As I keep stating, its not affecting my desire to play the game, not affecting my decision as to whether or not I keep my pre-order - something I have had on pre-order now for over 15months. Its not changed my decision at all but that still doesn't stop this from being a 'downgrade' on the original scene.

I fully understand that Games change over the development time and that sometimes things are 'downgraded' because they add more complexity in other areas. For example, you may get a downgrade in a 'street' scene because the buildings haven't been 'developed' and accessible - just 'shells' and by developing the interiors and accessibility means that the original is now too 'complex' for the game to run as intended so needed to be downgraded to enhance the overall performance and playability - much more important than having a few extra reflections or higher polygonal count on some windows on a building off in the distance....

I dont think i've ever seen a screenshot represent my actual on screen display in any game over the past thirty cocking years

so its all a load of nonsense...

Reminds me of the tire shadow row in Driveclub...

And as for this bickering and "calling out" users, just because they have a different take on things...

Grow up...

Probably just the Vita version....relax.

Who the heck has the time to get all worked up about something so trivial? Oh, found him.@CK97

Don’t you mean “those gamers should be ashamed.....”

@CK97 @get2sammyb my favourite thing about this is “really? You haters are still salty?” This is all just jealously right? Cos it’s not being released on their preferred platform? And yes, I’m anticipating that some of these guys has ps4’s Too.......

7.8 / 10 not enough water

Well my daughter is toilet training and left a puddle on the kitchen floor this morning. I wish Insomniac were able to downgrade that puddle.

Downgrade is such an over the top word for so little evidence. No one is going to really know until they play them side by side and guess what, if the game is good, no one is going to care. Just don't get it.

I only came to this thread for the usual fat Spiderman pic from @kyleforrester87
I wasn't disappointed.

@JoeBlogs There could be many reasons - including a dynamic weather system and the latter just happens to be on a drier day but that still doesn't mean that the latter isn't a 'technical' downgrade on the previous, wetter scene comparatively. I have never said this is a 'negative' but that it is technically less demanding and less complex and therefore a 'downgrade' on the original - not that it really matters if the game itself lives up to expectation in terms of game-play, consistency and story.

I am not however going to be all fanboy and state that this is not a downgrade when it clearly is. I was merely making the point that it is technically less complex and less demanding based purely on the 'static' image comparison between the original and latter version - not on the game-play and action that takes place there or any 'context' (such as dynamic weather variation that may occur).

I could use Project Cars as an example of scene complexity and weather impact too as that game, with its dynamic weather and unlocked frame rate shows how racing in the wet, with rain, puddles, splashes etc are more complex and affects the frame-rate because of this - a direct correlation between scene complexity and performance. Whilst racing in the dry is less complex and in some ways is a visual downgrade on racing in the dry because of the lack of the complexity, reflections, water behaviour etc that rain/water adds.

I cannot lie and will not say something isn't a 'downgrade' just because its a 'Sony' (or any other for that matter) game or get all 'fanboy' over something. As I said, its not affecting my decision to buy or desire to play either. My point though was to explain why its a downgrade over the original for all those that are blindly defending this but it is only in the context of the two static images and not in the context of the situation or game-play.

If you (or others) can't see how much more complex the original is, how much more those reflections add to the overall scene in general and how much easier it is to render and how much easier it will be in combat, without having to calculate the changing reflections or distortions due to different perspectives and points of view, ripples, splashes etc as you fight on the rooftop, then there is something wrong.

To reiterate, the scene is a technical downgrade on the previous in the context of just a straight comparison between the two static images only - not that it really matters in the whole context of the game at this point in time where none of us have played it through. Not that it matters if it was done to improve the overall performance or complexity in other areas - like having more enemies (some that may join the fight soon after this static shot) or more going on and better draw distance from a different angle etc. Like I said, there are far more important aspects that could benefit from this 'technical' downgrade but denying its not a downgrade - at least on a scene complexity just because its a Sony exclusive is ridiculous and only in the context of two static images in a side by side comparison - not in the context of the overall game.

Of course I prefer the former as it adds a lot more to the scene but I would rather take the latter if it was done to improve the overall game-play and/or performance.

I am looking forward to getting my Collectors edition and think the game looks like it will be fun - with or without the extra puddles and reflections. I have enjoyed a lot of Insomniacs games over the years and a fan of Spider-Man too so this 'Puddlegate' is not going to detract from that at all but I cannot 'lie' and state that the latter is not a technical downgrade just because its a Sony Exclusive. I would rather be honest and unbiased. I would also hope that others would be honest too and that they aren't so shallow as to let a minor thing like this detract from their decision to purchase too.

Anyway, hope you enjoy the game too as that is far more important in context than a static image comparison.

The last Ratchet and Clank game was a real looker, different games i know but R&C had alot going on at stages and it still looked great.

Pretty sure Spiderman is in good hands

@SuperSilverback Are u serious? If u are then u really shouldn't game because every game that releases changes from the 1st reveal. The game looks absolutely beautiful and the pre-order of Spiderman ps4 pro bundle is gonna look great on my cabinet and on my Samsung 4k TV. Have u not seen any of the youtubers who have had the chance to play this blockbuster? Well not one of them came away from that demo with anything negative to say about the game! Infact it was the exact opposite! They were coming away from the demos saying the game looks and plays amazing and has a chance of GOTY with God Of War, Red Dead Redemption 2. So if u are serious then see ya. I bet u didn't even pre-order but u think u saying what u have said is gonna some-how make everybody think, " well if SuperSilverback has cancelled it then it must be bad, so we are all gonna cancel😂😂😂😂 Cannot wait for this game. Still going through every bit of GOW, gonna download GOW 3 remastered when we get it with September's PSN game's for the month and complete that again but on my PS4 because I have only eva played it on PS3. I honestly don't get the mindset of grown-arse men-children who say they are gamer's! Even Cyberpunk 2077 are having people say that if they can't play the game in 3rd person they won't buy it? So their mentality is they won't play a game that has a very good chance of being great just because it isn't exactly how they want it. Why is it only gaming that has these spoilt immature adults that think they are some-how entitled! Giving gamer's a bad reputation with your crying, salty immature behaviour, stamping your feet because it isn't exactly what u wanted. Grow up😭😭😭😭😭😭

@JoeBlogs No company will say they 'downgraded' something as that implies that the product is somehow worse than it was - even if it is downgraded on 1 minor aspect that enables other things to be improved - like frame-rate, draw distances, more enemies, more areas to explore or any other things that could benefit from a downgrade in one area - such as a single areas puddles and complexity.

As I explained before, Insomniac could also see it as an optimisation and/or improvement because the game now plays much better because of this change or maybe see it as more in keeping with the 'climate' and season the game is set in so its not a 'downgrade' in the context of the whole game and its setting but its still a downgrade in that specific static image complexity.

There are numerous reasons that Insomniac will not want to say its a 'downgrade' even if it actually was downgraded for performance reasons and often will try to put a positive spin on something. Its not exactly going to put the Playstation in a good light if Insomniac came out and said they had to downgrade it because the PS4 couldn't handle the complexity of their original vision. As I said, there are many reasons that companies wouldn't openly admit to downgrading and will deny it or put some 'positive' spin on it. After all, its also wanting to keep sales high, keep Sony execs happy etc and not say (or at least imply) their console is too weak to handle a larger puddle...

Ubisoft too were adamant that Watchdogs wasn't downgraded from its initial presentation to the final release - same with the Division too - these were design changes to benefit the game and/or ambience but were still downgrades on the original concept.

Those that play the game aren't comparing side by side game-play of the before and after, they are playing the game they had access too and, I assume, too wrapped up in the action, the actual game-play to worry about whether or not the puddles were 'missing from what they remembered seeing originally. There are people that don't notice the fact that the shadows only resolve themselves only a few feet away from their character that beyond that, they are low res or even not there at all when playing. In Rise of the Tomb Raider for example, in the Geothermal valley, the leaves are completely missing on shadows on the XB1 version yet many people didn't notice - not even when they had a side by side with the visually enhanced version - until its pointed out and then can't miss it. Games like Tomb Raider that offer 'enhanced' visuals (not resolution boosted) options on Pro/X often can't see much difference when swapping back and forth between the two modes - its more obvious when side by side and can be compared. That doesn't mean that Shadow quality for example is not downgraded though on the non-enhanced version.

We are not going in circles at all - at least I don't think. At the end of the day I am sure both you and I don't care that much whether its been 'downgraded' through necessity or whether it was changed for artistic reasons because we both want to play the game and enjoy it for what it is in its released format - not some initial concept that hasn't yet been optimised or fully realised. I am sure we both agree that for whatever reason its been changed/downgraded, its been done to benefit us the gamer and our overall enjoyment of the 'whole' so its not exactly a big deal or a negative. I doubt it will be the last game either that has to compromise on initial ambition and concept designs by the time its fully realised and released on console - whether we get to see these downgrades/changes or not - depends on the time between initial reveal and release.

Everyone arguing over visual downgrades, let's play the bloody game then judge, rather than take our cue from compressed social media photo. Yes they look different, happy days to those whose life is so unfilled with true issues that this causes them outrage!! Witcher 3 got a visual downgrade but it's still one of the best games ever. Let's wait till someone gets there hands on the final version before we go mad

I can not say I have any interest in this game. Even if it had big puddles that that spiderman could go into.

@Lloydeeee If you read the comment i posted just above yours you would realise i was joking when i said Pre Order Cancelled 😂😂😂

I'm more annoyed about the suit it looks terrible in comparison it looks more like a comic and not in a good way.

I'd like to add as much as this annoys me it will in no way change how much I'll love this game and i can not wait for the game to finally drop and see that start up screen load up 👌🏻👌🏻

@get2sammyb I haven’t really been following anything about this game.
The first screenshot looks cool, and piques my curiosity.
The second screenshot looks dull, and bores me.

The images have dramatically, obviously different artistic merit, and it’s totally fine to say so. Ridiculing people who see that and just want to muse about it as an embarassment, or nitpickers, or pixel-counters, or drama queens who don’t understand that the code’s exactly the same, guy, geez!... comes across as p***ing on their leg and telling them it’s raining.

_{Language - get2sammyb}

The real question now is, can we make it to 200?

@JoeBlogs Yet again taking something out of context. I also said that Insomniac could have made the changes for other reasons - like in keeping with climate of the season that the game is set in so its not a 'downgrade' in context. If they see at as a positive, an optimisation and improvement to the games actual performance and playability, they could say its not a downgrade too because in context its an improvement overall to the game.

As I said, no company will want to use the word 'downgrade' or will openly say its been downgraded because of the negative connotations that has. That was the point I was making so even if Insomniac did 'downgrade' that particular area for performance reasons, they certainly wouldn't admit that. They, like any other devs would use other language - like artistic change or put some positive spin on it to insinuate that the downgrade wasn't made out of necessity because the hardware can't cope with their initial design. Therefore you can't always take a devs word as gospel. I am NOT accusing Insomniac of lying at all because I don't have all the facts. I didn't play the game when the first screenshot was taken and so can't say for definite that the downgrade was made out of necessity or whether the change was made for artistic and/or more realistic seasonal weather conditions. If its the latter, its not a 'downgrade' in that context at all even if its a downgrade on scene complexity and hardware resources needed to render it.

My post was merely to say that there could be many reasons why this has been changed, not necessarily out of 'need' to improve performance. I am NOT accusing Insomniac of lying as I don't have the facts but my post was also to say that Devs, Publishers etc won't want to admit to downgrading IF they had to do it out of necessity and certainly wouldn't want to come out and say they 'had to' because that implies the console (much more important for an Exclusive) isn't capable of delivering the game visuals they had originally intended. That's biting the hand that feeds so to speak and I am sure Insomniac would rather keep up a good relationship with Sony rather than say their hardware isn't up to the task of delivering the visuals they had hoped to bring. Its not just Insomniac either but any developer. Stating you have 'downgraded' something not only puts their name in a bad light (whether its 'forced' because of hardware limitations or not), but also the platforms its releasing on - insinuating that they are not up to the task of delivering the game at a certain level.

To reiterate, without knowing all the facts and the full context of this 'change', I am NOT calling Insomniac as lying. It could be changed for purely cosmetic reasons rather than out of necessity but that still doesn't mean that the scene isn't a downgrade on its predecessor from a technical and complexity viewpoint. I think its obvious its not as complex and resource heavy scene and therefore a 'downgrade' - although that's just in the context of comparing two static screenshots of that 1 specific scene and not in the context of the game as a whole, the setting and the environmental weather of the season its taking place in.

As I have said many times, just because this one individual frame, or even 1 individual area of the game may well be 'changed/downgraded', I doubt Insomniac did it for any other reason than our benefit as gamers looking to enjoy their game when it releases. I doubt that the game as whole will be 'ugly' because of this and will still look great in motion, be as much (if not more) fun to play - its more fun to play IF the 'downgrade' was made to ensure a locked/consistent frame-rate throughout - as nothing ruins a game like big frame rate drops because the action and scene complexity is too much for the GPU/CPU to deliver a constant frame rate - that's much more important than whether or not a scene looks better with larger puddles and reflections before the combat action combined with water effects and the reflections, ripples/splashes cause big frame rate drops. Its much more important that the game as a whole is enjoyable, with a good story, good game-play, good open-world, good activities/side-quests etc than whether or not 1 very small area of the game has a smaller puddle now!

I don't know how else I can it, but this is a 'downgrade' over the previous image when taking as a static image comparison (not in the context of the 'whole' game), but its NOT indicative of a downgrade in terms of the game-play , story etc. Most, if not all visual downgrades are actually made to benefit us as the gamer so it shouldn't be seen as a 'negative' but that is just the mentality of some. That a visual downgrade means a downgrade in the experience and enjoyability of a game....

@get2sammyb Fair edit on the language, my apologies and thanks for leaving my meaning inferable.

This one single screenshot may well be the only thing I ever play of this game, though. Certainly, next to none of the people you decry as an embarassment to gamers are in the same privileged position as you of having had the opportunity to play the game themselves yet, at least.

I’m sure the game is amazing, but this screenshot just plain isn’t.

Thanks to this topic someone must have cancelled a pre-order for a collector's edition , I was able to pre-order one from Target !! LOL.
The way I look at it ... The water evaporated from sitting there for so long since E3 .Thank you Insomniac for creative such a realistic environment !!!

Almost there

200 Baby!!!

Time to add fuel to the fire...

Totally a downgrade!

@Fath
What's happening here? Most people, like you react on a single screenshot/picture. Possibly even a couple more staged pictures? We are talking about an open world game here.
In this age of fake news on social media. Don't you think with a few screenshots causing such an outrage, its a good thing that some people actually point out the ridicule of it all? Anyone can be misinformed and misguided once in a while.

@3MonthBeef Nope, insomiac already said there's no downgrade, they show another scene that have more puddle than the 2017 one. Digital foundry john linneman (dark1x) already said on resetera that there's no downgrade in that scene. Comparing sony to ubisoft is laughable, after killzone 2 controversy, sony always show real gameplay without downgrade.

Insomniac already says no downgrade, digital foundy also says so, same with the reviewers, if there's people still screaming downgrade then that people is hopeless.

Also there's pics that shows upgraded game textures, of course people still showing that blurry comparison pic. Just like uncharted 4, horizon zd, and god of war, the reviews will come out, then digital foundy will says its one of the of the best games graphically, and the people that says downgrade will go into hiding, until ghost of tsushima and tlou2 of course, its like clockwork really

Meh, will be playing this on an original PS4 and a 6 year old 32" HD Samsung tv. It will STILL look fantastic and I will be enjoying the crap out of it.

I like the version with the bigger puddle better. Looks awesome. Little puddle, not so much.

Cry me a river...or a puddle, in this case.

@get2sammyb I'm not looking to start an argument here, but do you personally have proof that no code has been altered or changed?

To be honest, the devs saying nothing has changed isn't really convincing. Look how many lies devs like Molyneux and Sean Murray told, blatant lies even while being filmed. They know we have to take their word for it and they can say what they want. Downgrading games after showing far better graphics at E3 is common, they're often not even running the game on the target machine but rather a very powerful PC. Nintendo demoed games in the past that had a Fraps watermark in the corner (and even more comically it was the trial version).

Whichever way you look at this, it is a downgrade. The screenshots are there for all to see and you can clearly see the difference, no amount of lighting from an altered time of day in-game should make that much of a difference. It’s not just the puddles, it’s the reflections, shadows, the level of detail in the environment and Spider-man himself. The release screenshot looks like it’s from last gen compared to the E3 one.

I do agree with @BAMozzy when he says it’s like a technical downgrade, we’ve seen games like Watch Dogs and The Division showcasing them at E3 looking great but when they actually came out they looked nothing like what was shown at E3, it’s most likely going to be the same story here. Stevenson is obviously not going to admit it’s a downgrade, can you imagine the backlash and negative press he and Insomniac would receive?

I’m happy to be proven wrong once the game is released, but I’m not just going to take some devs word for it when I can clearly see the evidence of the two screenshots at the top of this article.

@MaccaMUFC
As you are a Manchester United fan, I will respect your opinions and experience on downgrades over time and managers trying to tell you the worse experience you are witnessing with your very eyes is infact totally brilliant because remember "they've done a great job in the past".

When I see controversies like this I always first think that there's some shady stuff behind it or to put it bluntly, someone getting a benefit out of creating controversies... Then I remember how dissapointing the human race is at times and I laugh at myself for thinking there's actually some thinking behind the whole thing

sigh And here we go again..... 🙄
People still haven’t learned, that one of the reasons that a good number of games are “disappointing”, is their own TOO HIGH EXPECTATIONS!!!
Personally, I couldn’t care less about “drawdistance”, “focal depth” or the size of waterpuddles, or if a game is 4K capable or not.
As long as a game isn’t too glitchy, runs fluidly, AND (actually most important!!!) is FUN TO PLAY(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), I’m happy!!! 😉👍

@Cutepuppy351 Sony have the rights to the Spider-Man IP and have done for years but they only just got the rights to make games since Activisions ran out, they are the ones who made all those "bad Spider-Man" games as you called them NOT Sony

Sony are making a game from an IP they currently own on their system so yes it's perfectly fine it's a PS4 exclusive

if you think an IP owner should release a game on systems other then their own then Nintendo better start releasing Mario on other systems then or MS better start doing it with Halo

it's a Sony IP on a Sony system, what's so hard to understand about that?

@Cutepuppy351 they didn't "snatch" the rights, they got them BACK after Activisions term ended

and by the way YES i do have a PS4, i also have a XBOX ONE, a P.C and a Switch because i like to play games so i go where the games are, i NEVER assume they will come to me, these are a business after all and they are going to do what's in the best interest for them, not for you and not for me and if that means SONY commissioning a company to make a game FOR THEIR SYSTEM then so be and stop complaining about something that has been part and parcel of gaming since the 1980's

and don't you dare assume what kind of person i am, if your angry because a game MADE FOR SONY is only on PS4 then boo hoo and go cry a river and the next time the P.C or XBOX gets and exclusive game like Halo you know SOMETHING MS HAVE THE RIGHTS TO SO IT WILL BE AN XBOX EXCLUSIVE AND NOT ON PS4 remember how much of a prat you have been

and before you say anything Halo was originally going to be a PS2 game but i don't see you moaning that MS STOLE a Sony game do i

@Cutepuppy351 SPOILED BRAT! HOW BLOODY DARE YOU, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME

growing up i had NOTHING, i was going to school in my older brothers 3 year old school clothes because my parents could only afford to buy one set, i lived on 2 meals a day and that was only because i got one free at school, i never got pocket money because they couldn't afford it and the only way we got a family holiday is when my grandparents let use use their caravan which i might add only happened 3 times in my entire life and the only reason i got a PS1 was because i got a paper round and saved all year for it

i can afford all the console now because i WORK FOR IT and that is my damn right, you call me a spoiled brat but the only one that is one is you because YOU believe your entitled to everything WELL YOUR NOT, A game you want isn't on a system you own well tough, that's the nature of the business and i bet when you got all those P.C and XBOX exclusive games you didn't complain about PlayStation or Nintendo gamers not getting them did you but now the shoe is on the other foot your outraged well that means your acting like a spoiled cry baby AKA a PRAT

don't your DARE assume you know who i am and what i have been through you know nothing, i have scraped and clawed to get where i am and if i want to use MY HARD EARNED MONEY buying the things i was never able to have when i was young then that's what i'll spend it on

you need to grow up, nothing has ever been for the consumer in this game, it's business and they don't care about you and what you think all they care about is getting your money

understand your pain, WHAT BLOODY PAIN, you can't play the latest Spider-Man so what, stop being so self entitled

when you have to sit in the freezing cold during winter because you can't afford to buy food and pay for your heating or are wearing shoes held together with sellotape then maybe, MAYBE you can talk about being hard up but judging by the way your acting over a game i bet you had your parent pay your way through life and no nothing, NOTHING of the real hardships out there

i say again GROW UP