@belmont It's not hard to understand
Toys for Bob under Activision was basically COD support studio with occasional space to make their own games. By going independent they are basically waving goodbye to all COD work, but Microsoft can still pay for development of their new game on project basis. But they also can make something else alongside that project for Microsoft.
@Defcon5 And which COD game is in Game Pass or was in Game Pass day one? So how exactly could Modern warfare 3 "increase sales of Xbox consoles" or Game pass subscriptions?
Because Modern Warfare 3 still had marketing deal with Sony (hence why Sony was selling PS5 COD: MW3 bundles). And for game that "is not doing well at the moment" MW3 was still best selling game on PS5 in January
@MrMagic Since 9% of Activision Blizzard revenue was accounted to Xbox (and even less of that was purchases for Call of Duty), I guess Microsoft will be more than fine...
@Jamesblob What?
1. Microsoft haven't ordered Sony to created bloated first-party games that costs 300 million dollars to make. But that's what you need to spend to create huge open world game with 10 hours of cinematics and other unnecessary ***** included.
2. Since OG Call of Duty deal with Activision was abolished, Sony will earn even more from Call of Duty, because Sony got only 20% cut from every purchase based on deal with Activision. That is now reverting back to standard 30%.
3. It's not Microsoft's problem that Sony can't afford it. No business in the world should care if XYZ competitor can create something to compete with them.
4. Nobody ever asked Helldivers 2 to come to Game Pass. Are there requests for Xbox port? Absolutely. But not for Game Pass.
So yeah. Sony will basically fund ability of Microsoft to put Call of Duty into Game Pass. So...thanks in advance
Problem for Sony is that they just can't scale back with scope of their AAA single-player games.
They trained audience to expect best visuals, no microtransactions, plenty of features and smorgasboard of cutscenes. So the most expensive features of their game development are exactly the things that audience expects from them as a standard.
I honestly wonder what the want to do with that. I expect PC day one releases are matter of "when" not "if." Because as Spencer said. Either you find a way to extract more money from same audience or you will find a new audience.
@SJBUK They subsidized sales of PSVR2 so they can later recoup that investment through software sales. How exactly do you want to do that if you allow PSVR2 to work with PC where people wouldn't give you single dollar though software purchases?
Like. Nobody actually believes that Sony is doing that from kindness of their heart. They are doing it to salvage their investments into device. They stopped reporting sales numbers of headset, they slashed manufacturing of the device.
Whole proposition of PSVR2 was insane from beginning. You have 550$ VR device that needs 500$ console to work properly. While your competition is offering similarly priced device that can work on it's own.
Considering what Totoki said about inability of Sony to drop prices of PS5 permanently because of low margins I fully expect this Pro console to cost 650$ at best.
@guitarpete987 But here is the kicker. Nobody gamer has any idea about "sustainability" of this type of service. On one hand you have Jim Ryan saying it is unsustainable, on other hand you have Phil Spencer saying that Game Pass is not only sustainable, but also profitable.
And both of them HAVE to say things that they are saying, because of their corpo strategy regarding sub services.
It's hilarious to be talking about sustainability, when whole concept of console making with subsidized console manufacturing is unsustainable. But still people don't want to pay 700$ for consoles...
@dark_knightmare2 This is exactly what people said about possibility of PlayStation releasing their games on PC few years ago. And look where we are now.
And then goalposts shifted towards "but no PlayStation game will be on PC day one." And look where we are now.
Current goalpost is "but no PlayStation story-driven game on PC day one." Just wait for that
Sony is just boiling frog same way as Microsoft. Only difference is that Microsoft started boiling process in 2016, while Sony started it in 2020.
@Fyz306903 ??? It really doesn't matter. Because whenever you will bring next generation we will have another 3-4 cross-gen period. Because that's how long game takes to develop. Cutting budgets have nothing to do with shortening of generation. It has everything to do with bloat in AAA games (every game has to have skill trees, crafting, huge open world, 2 hours of cutscenes etc.) and excessive marketing spend.
@themightyant I honestly think that idea of "Pro" consoles in this gen is stupid. I get why it was obvious during last gen. PS4 and Xbox One were ancient by the time they released with pathetic laptop-grade CPU's. Also there was surge of 4K TV, so Pro consoles "made sense."
But they don't make sense currently. It would be honestly way better just to cancel Pro consoles, and maybe shorten current gen to 6 years.
@themightyant No. PS4 Pro sold 14,3 million consoles using 2020 data (thanks to Insomniac leak). So it's 14,3 million of Pro vs. around 102,5 base PS4 consoles.
Even after Pro launched, console never outsold base PS4 outside of it's launch window.
Also, problem is that even if you are selling great number of PS5 Pro consoles, there is huge chance, that you are selling that console to the same people that bought base PS5 years ago. So you subsidized base PS5 when you sold the console in 2020 to the customer, and now you are subsidizing sale of PS5 Pro. So you lost on two hardware SKU's sold to the customer in span of 4 years.
How exactly does that make business sense?
Second option is to not subsidized PS5 Pro, but from what Totoki said recently, they can't even bring PS5 down in price because margins are razor thin. So you are looking at 600$ - 700$ console. And good luck selling that...
@GeeEssEff Well. Since new CEO of PlayStation is finance guy and since PS Plus already hit it's ceiling (so much so that Sony stopped reporting PS Plus numbers), I fully expect that they will go to the second phase of lifecycle of service "pulling more money from one customer" so I don't expect that those "good deals" lasting very long tbh.
@GeeEssEff Okay. I'm not arguing that Sony have to do "day and date" first-party games. But. If they are not willing to do that, it would be nice, if price of PS Plus Extra reflected that.
Currently, PS Plus Extra is 13,99€ in my region, while Game Pass Ultimate is 14,99€. For one € extra I have access to "day and date" games.
I'm currently subscribed to both Xbox Game Pass Ultimate and PS Plus Extra and it's not even a contest between those two services. Not only through "day and date" first-party games, but also third-party games that are coming to Game Pass day one/EA Play inclusion and access to streaming.
Only reason why I'm not fully regretting subscribing to the PS Plus Extra is because I managed to snag a deal for 12 months of PS Plus Extra for 72€. Which is exactly the price where you can say "it's worth it." But I can't imagine to continue my subscription for full price.
@Suppressed Sony already knows about release of PS5 Pro and they still expect gradual decline in sales.
So it's pretty clear that PS5 Pro wouldn't move a needle that much. It will be either brutally expensive (600$+), or heavily subsidized by Sony, or both.
And considering fact that only 14,3 million of 117+ million of PlayStation 4 was Pro consoles, everybody who thinks that Pro will bring reversal of fortune is setting themselves up for disappointment.
I'm kinda baffled with these types of articles. Instead of requesting as much value as possible from corporation, people are cheerleading getting less value for same price as competition.
It's pretty obvious where things are heading long term. To everybody who isn't a dumb fanboy.
Even new PlayStation president said that - console market isn't growing and Microsoft and Sony needs to find new audience ie. PC market and "other consoles" market. Which is obvious since big AAA games are increasingly becoming unsustainable and things will only become worse and worse.
Sony is effectively mirroring Microsoft's strategy, but because they have higher instalbase of console players, they have a cushion of doing that slowly. At first it was staggered PC releases. Then it was day one PC releases and last step is staggered "other consoles" releases or "you don't ned a console, because we have streaming service."
So yeah. Starfield will eventually end up on PlayStation 5. Several years after Xbox release when nobody from Xbox audience will even care anymore. But I think that by the end of this gen, same thing will be true even for games like Spider-Man 2.
Sony is basically currently in position where Xbox was in 2016-2017. And they are following almost each step except first-party games in sub service day one.
I mean. He is right.
Game is already on PC day one. So you don't need PlayStation to play it. And it isn't a system seller. So if Xbox port existed, nothing would have happened. Except Sony having more money. Which they kinda need.
@truerbluer If you expect Nixxes to be responsible for bigger workload because you want to port your games on PC day one, you can just staff it up accordingly. "Studio is too small" is just stupid excuse. Especially since releasing your game on PC will bring you way way way more sales. Just look at Helldivers 2.
Spider-Man 2 was buggy, because Sony forced it to release in october, because Insomniac exceeded budget and all marketing (and release of PS5 Slim) was tied to release of that game. If PC was supposed to be released day one, then they would obviously throw more people into mix during development to have both versions ready...duh?
Devs are setting hardware requirements. If they want to do stuff with their game that needs to use XYZ GB/s transfer speeds, they can just put "NVMe gen 4." in requirements. Pretty simple if you ask me. Loading times in PC version are usually slower, because not many devs are using DirectStore, which will be resolved as time passes.
Xbox gamers don't care in slightest that they have to pay to play online in Sea of Thieves while PC players don't need to. Because , they can burn through 1000$ to build a PC instead buying 450$ console if they want to. It's about choice. You know what consequences, advantages and disadvantages each choice has. Yeah, they bitched about it at first, but now they don't care.
We can talk about it more, but facts are that console market is stagnant, and currently PS5 is on pace to not even sell as many consoles as PS4 did. And development costs are ballooning. Sony knows that, Microsoft knows that. Nintendo doesn't care currently because they are not making graphically intensive games, so they don't cost that much to develop.
It's pretty clear that 115 million PS owners is absolute roof that Sony can count on. They need to have PC audience if they want to throw 300 million dollars into development of one game whether you like it or not.
@truerbluer Lol. Why would be a development time longer? Like I get that optimising game for PC takes a time, but sales will be way higher so you can put more people on the project. Sony even has Nixxes (PC port studio) that can be thrown from project to project to optimise PC versions before release.
Same for "games will be worse." Spider-Man 2 was pretty buggy (for standard of PS Studios games) and it was PS5 release only.
And that "build around PS5 SSD" argument is just laughable. You know that PC currently boasts way higher transfer speeds for SSD then PlayStation 5, right?
And I mean, yeah. PC version will probably be cheaper and won't require PS Plus for online play. But I don't understand why it is a problem. You have choice - spend less on hardware (console), but pay more for online play and games or spend way more on hardware and pay less for game with free online.
It's just obvious that sooner or later, first-party games will be transformed into "timed exclusives."
Dev budgets are ballooning like crazy and you can't just ignore 50 million Xbox owners and ***** of PC gamers that could buy your game and bring you higher ROI.
We are living in age when Insomniac had to sell 7,2 million copies of Spider-Man 2 at full price just to break even. And since new CEO of PlayStation is financial guy, I fully expect him to chase as high ROI as possible.
Just imagine world where Xbox will port their games on PlayStation 12 months after release and Sony will do the same with their games. Both companies would fight on merits of hardware and services. Wouldn't be world a better place?
@AdamNovice So what? Helldivers 2 was released on PC day one and it hit 200k concurent on Steam. There is no way that those players didn't pay for port and added into ROI.
@themightyant No, they are talking about slowdown in sales for next fiscal year ie. from april 2024 to march 2025. Which just isn't good no matter, how you slice it.
If PS6 is slated for 2028, we are still in first half of PS5 lifecycle and Sony is already expecting dropof in sales, which didn't happen in 4th year of PS4 on the market while PS5 is already lagging behind PS4.
And I mean. I don't even need to argue about "is situation fine?" Totoki already hinted during Q&A that they are looking at multiplatform releases for first-party games, that studios needs to reign in spending and they need to raise their margins. He is basically saying that business is not growing in console space and they need to cut costs while expanding towards new audience.
in my first post was to demonstrate, that Sony predicted that PS5 will surpass sales of PS4.
And I argued that slowing sales of PS5 are a problem specifically, because SIE management forecasted exact oposite. Worst thing in business is not hitting your expectations.
Yes, PS5 is currently "only" 2,4 million behind PS4. But since Sony is already hinting at slowdown of sales, while PS4 hit it's peak during 4th year on the market, it is the problem only exaggerated by ballooning investments. Also, slowdown is strange since they are supposed to be releasing PS5 Pro. And with Switch 2 launch their position may be even worse.
@themightyant It matters hugely. Because Sony management wants to see growth. Not selling same amount or even less consoles as in previous gen.
And it's pretty clear, that console market is just limited and it's not growing. So Sony needs to find new growth vector if PlayStation 5 is selling worse than PlayStation 4.
I mean. Just look at the numbers. They have 10 billion in revenue with 6% operating margins. That's just pitiful.
Or look at that in this way. Spider-Man was developed at 100 million budget, sold at 60$ to audience of 115 million PlayStation 4 users Spider-Man 2 was developed at 300 million budget, sold at 70$ to an audience of decreasing PlayStation owners.
Do you see the problem? Their investment into development of game tripled, they are only selling game with 10$ price increase to a decreasing audience.
@get2sammyb "It’s also lost a little pace on the PS4 launch aligned, which had an install base of 57.1 million units at this point in its lifecycle. Obviously, the PS5 had crippling stock shortages for its first few years on the market, though."
Sony predicted that once PS5 surpass sales of PS4 in Year 4, it will stay ahead. But Sony said that they are expecting dropoff in PS5 sales, so it doesn't look like it will surpass PS4 at all.
They are not even hitting that. They are currently at 16,4 million during fiscal year so they need to sell 4,6 million PlayStation 5 consoles during january-march to hit 21 million.
FY Q4 (january-march) is historically worst period for console sales (last year was an exception because it was first quarter when PS5 supply addressed demand) and even with slashed prices I really doubt will hit that number.
They also fell behind PS4. And without major first-party games until march 2025 I really doubt that PS5 will sell as good as PS4. Which is kinda big problem.
It makes sense, since that Taiwanese business web informed, that Sony had to cut production of PS5 because they have full warehouse of consoles, because they oversupplied during holiday.
I really doubt that they will hit 25 million during current fiscal year.
Lol. So we went from Indiana Jones and Starfield to Pentiment, Sea of Thieves and Hi-Fi Rush?
Like, don't get me wrong, both Hi-Fi Rush and Pentiment are great. But it will hardly hurt Microsoft's position on console market when they will port those games. They were not a system sellers and they were not supposed to be one. Not to mention Sea of Thieves which is 6 years old.
It's literally like if Sony decided to port Concrete Genie to Xbox.
I wonder what will be Sony's response in future in terms of releasing their games on PC day one.
Because Helldivers 2 has way more players on PC then on PlayStation 5, so game clearly benefited from linked marketing push.
@naruball Because as I already told you, Microsoft already IS third party publisher, so even if his bio was left intact it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
He had his profile like that for month and nobody cared, until one Twitter user pointed it out and people connected it to recent events.
@naruball This article is exact reason why.
Because especially since this week's events, people are literally grasping for any straw to fit their narrative.
And I'm not saying that rumors about Microsoft porting their games on PlayStation are not true.
I'm just saying that Microsoft is already third-party publisher in some cases (Minecraft, TESO, F76, Call of Duty, Diablo, Overwatch etc.), so it's obvious that they need to take care about all platforms in Asia. But people will read it and immediately put it alongside other rumors from last several days.
@naruball Hogwarts Legacy is cross-gen game. And it also took almost one year to develop functioning port that is so constrained that I'm baffled somebody bought it.
Switch sold 140 million consoles and is largely ignored by big third parties. Ports are either late or non-existent. So let's not pretend that every big multiplatform game is on Switch.
People rejected PS3 with high price, because they had alternative. Xbox 360 that was cheaper and ran majority of games better. It took Sony to make cheaper and better Slim model to put up fight. So you exactly proved my point that competition is needed.
@naruball Switch 2 is rumored to be even less powerful then Series S. So I bet AAA game devs will have just a great time porting their games on system when they are already complaining about Series S power...
You are literally proving my point. Yes, Sony currently can take a risk with games, because they are competing to create ecosystem that people will prefer over competition. With competition (in hardware space) gone, there is no incentive to bet on projects that doesn't have 100% chance of being successful and bringing huge ROI.
Same thing with consoles. When there is competition (Series X), Sony have incentive to price their console in line with competition and therefore taking loss on hardware. In market where isn't any competing hardware, there is no reason for Sony to take a loss on hardware. So I hope, people are prepared for 700$ PS6
@naruball People will buy console, because they want consoles. They don't want PC. And if their only option for playing AAA multiplatform games would be PlayStation (Switch can't run 99% of AAA multiplatform games), they will buy PlayStation even without exclusives.
And I'm not talking about Spider-Man, because that's somehow safe bet. I'm talking about risky projects like new IP's, studios like Sony Bend that isn't making 100% hits etc.
It's about ROI. If you can spend your investment $ in thing that will bring you more money, you will do that. Instead of giving 300 million dollars to a studio that will bring you back 400 millions.
And let's stop dreaming about "another company entering space." Only two companies have money that are required to enter gaming industry as a platform holder. Apple and Google. And Google already tried.
Competition is crucial. If there wasn't an Xbox 360, Sony wouldn't be in position of need to nurture first-party studios. If there wasn't a PS4, Microsoft would get away with Xbox One DRM policies. If it wasn't for Game Pass, Sony wouldn't make PS Plus Extra/Premium which are 100x better then old PS Now offerings.
Just remember what happened last time when Sony felt that their position on the market is untouchable.
Every month of delay is 200+ devs (in big AA projects) on payroll without any ROI. And game budgets for big AAA SP games are already on verge of being unsustainable.
Xbox is in no way, shape of form pressuring Sony to release their games in shape that they are not ready. Financial reality of game development is doing that. Spider-Man 2 was released in buggy state (for standards of PlayStation Studios) not because of Xbox, but because game already exceeded it's budget, it was tied with release of PS5 Slim (through bundles), and millions of dollars on marketing was already invested and slated for October release.
Ehh. Nobody is questioning "complacency" of devs to create great games. But if Xbox really leaves console making, what reason would Sony have to invest in 300+ million big budget SP games? Currently it's huge risk which we saw with Spider-Man 2 that has to sold 7,5 million copies to at least break even.
Answer is none. Currently, Sony is using exclusives to draw people into their ecosystem where people then spend money on third-party stuff where Sony is getting 30% from every transaction. That's basically how consoles are working in past 4 generations. But with Xbox consoles gone, investing 300+ million into SP game is just pitiful investment with low ROI, because your console will be "console of choice" even without those games.
@GamingFan4Lyf Well, audience decides what system seller is. Sony found out that their audience likes third-person action adventure games so they steered in that direction. Microsoft has Game Pass so they are betting on variety of content.
Nintendo is showing that "system seller" can be game from almost any genre. Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario, Pikmin, Xenoblade etc.
I would dare to say that Starfield was system seller, because it pushed Xbox consoles and also Game Pass, which is it's job and despite not really stellar reviews. And I expect Indiana Jones to move good number of consoles despite fact that game is first-person. And then you have Forza Horizon which is staple of racing genre and is always moving consoles. And I expect Fable (third person RPG), Perfect Dark (FPS) and Quake (FPS) to do the same if they will be quality titles.
I see no drawback for Microsoft.
It's small niche game. It wasn't system seller and it was never supposed to be one. It's an equivalent of Sony porting Concrete Genie to Xbox and Switch.
Microsoft will get additional money from Sony/Nintendo players (like in case of Ori on Switch) and players will get to experience one of the best games from 2023.
Yeah. There is no way that this new game will be done before 2030.
Even if Death Stranding 2 won't suffer from any delays (which is always a possibility) and will release in 2025, you are looking at 5-6 years AAA development (which is standard currently). Not to mention fact that Kojima is also working on OD for Xbox.
Comments 751
Re: Crash Bandicoot, Spyro Dev Toys for Bob Becomes Independent Studio, May Partner with Microsoft
@belmont It's not hard to understand
Toys for Bob under Activision was basically COD support studio with occasional space to make their own games. By going independent they are basically waving goodbye to all COD work, but Microsoft can still pay for development of their new game on project basis. But they also can make something else alongside that project for Microsoft.
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@Defcon5 And which COD game is in Game Pass or was in Game Pass day one? So how exactly could Modern warfare 3 "increase sales of Xbox consoles" or Game pass subscriptions?
Because Modern Warfare 3 still had marketing deal with Sony (hence why Sony was selling PS5 COD: MW3 bundles). And for game that "is not doing well at the moment" MW3 was still best selling game on PS5 in January
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@MrMagic Good for you.
See you until then (probably in year 2100)
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@MrMagic Since 9% of Activision Blizzard revenue was accounted to Xbox (and even less of that was purchases for Call of Duty), I guess Microsoft will be more than fine...
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@Jamesblob What?
1. Microsoft haven't ordered Sony to created bloated first-party games that costs 300 million dollars to make. But that's what you need to spend to create huge open world game with 10 hours of cinematics and other unnecessary ***** included.
2. Since OG Call of Duty deal with Activision was abolished, Sony will earn even more from Call of Duty, because Sony got only 20% cut from every purchase based on deal with Activision. That is now reverting back to standard 30%.
3. It's not Microsoft's problem that Sony can't afford it. No business in the world should care if XYZ competitor can create something to compete with them.
4. Nobody ever asked Helldivers 2 to come to Game Pass. Are there requests for Xbox port? Absolutely. But not for Game Pass.
So yeah. Sony will basically fund ability of Microsoft to put Call of Duty into Game Pass. So...thanks in advance
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@MrMagic It more looks like PlayStation players with their COD purchases will be funding ability of Xbox Game Pass members to play COD in Game Pass
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@MrMagic You know that Game Pass isn't going anywhere right?
Currently it seems like Microsoft will put Call of Duty into Game Pass day one. Which speak for itself.
Re: Sea of Thieves Players on PS5 Will Need a Microsoft Account to Play
@MrMagic "sooner it dies the better"
Ehh. Sea of Thieves was released 6 years ago. It's really taking it's time to die
I would not be surprised if it sold 2-3 additional millions copies on PlayStation.
Re: Reaction: The Problem with PlayStation Right Now
Problem for Sony is that they just can't scale back with scope of their AAA single-player games.
They trained audience to expect best visuals, no microtransactions, plenty of features and smorgasboard of cutscenes. So the most expensive features of their game development are exactly the things that audience expects from them as a standard.
I honestly wonder what the want to do with that.
I expect PC day one releases are matter of "when" not "if." Because as Spencer said. Either you find a way to extract more money from same audience or you will find a new audience.
Re: Video: One Year Later, Is PSVR2 Doing Enough?
@SJBUK They subsidized sales of PSVR2 so they can later recoup that investment through software sales. How exactly do you want to do that if you allow PSVR2 to work with PC where people wouldn't give you single dollar though software purchases?
Like. Nobody actually believes that Sony is doing that from kindness of their heart. They are doing it to salvage their investments into device. They stopped reporting sales numbers of headset, they slashed manufacturing of the device.
Whole proposition of PSVR2 was insane from beginning. You have 550$ VR device that needs 500$ console to work properly. While your competition is offering similarly priced device that can work on it's own.
Re: Video: One Year Later, Is PSVR2 Doing Enough?
Even Sony doesn't think PSVR2 is doing enough. Hence why they are working on PC support...
Re: Xbox May Need to Familiarise Itself with PS5, PS4's Platinum Trophies
@xDD90x And Obsidian wasn't even responsible for Pentiment port on PlayStation. All recently announced ports were outsourced to third-party studios.
Re: Upgraded PS5 Pro Planning to Be the Best Place to Play GTA 6
Considering what Totoki said about inability of Sony to drop prices of PS5 permanently because of low margins I fully expect this Pro console to cost 650$ at best.
Re: Sony May Have Made the Right Call Not Copying Xbox Game Pass with PS Plus
@guitarpete987 But here is the kicker. Nobody gamer has any idea about "sustainability" of this type of service. On one hand you have Jim Ryan saying it is unsustainable, on other hand you have Phil Spencer saying that Game Pass is not only sustainable, but also profitable.
And both of them HAVE to say things that they are saying, because of their corpo strategy regarding sub services.
It's hilarious to be talking about sustainability, when whole concept of console making with subsidized console manufacturing is unsustainable. But still people don't want to pay 700$ for consoles...
Re: Reaction: Xbox Is Bringing Some Great Games to PS5, But Rumours Will Remain Rampant About What's Next
@dark_knightmare2 This is exactly what people said about possibility of PlayStation releasing their games on PC few years ago. And look where we are now.
And then goalposts shifted towards "but no PlayStation game will be on PC day one." And look where we are now.
Current goalpost is "but no PlayStation story-driven game on PC day one." Just wait for that
Sony is just boiling frog same way as Microsoft. Only difference is that Microsoft started boiling process in 2016, while Sony started it in 2020.
Re: Sony Shares Drop Sharply After Prediction PS5 Growth Has Peaked
@Fyz306903 ???
It really doesn't matter. Because whenever you will bring next generation we will have another 3-4 cross-gen period. Because that's how long game takes to develop.
Cutting budgets have nothing to do with shortening of generation. It has everything to do with bloat in AAA games (every game has to have skill trees, crafting, huge open world, 2 hours of cutscenes etc.) and excessive marketing spend.
Re: Sony Shares Drop Sharply After Prediction PS5 Growth Has Peaked
@themightyant I honestly think that idea of "Pro" consoles in this gen is stupid. I get why it was obvious during last gen. PS4 and Xbox One were ancient by the time they released with pathetic laptop-grade CPU's. Also there was surge of 4K TV, so Pro consoles "made sense."
But they don't make sense currently. It would be honestly way better just to cancel Pro consoles, and maybe shorten current gen to 6 years.
Re: Sony Shares Drop Sharply After Prediction PS5 Growth Has Peaked
@themightyant No. PS4 Pro sold 14,3 million consoles using 2020 data (thanks to Insomniac leak). So it's 14,3 million of Pro vs. around 102,5 base PS4 consoles.
Even after Pro launched, console never outsold base PS4 outside of it's launch window.
Also, problem is that even if you are selling great number of PS5 Pro consoles, there is huge chance, that you are selling that console to the same people that bought base PS5 years ago. So you subsidized base PS5 when you sold the console in 2020 to the customer, and now you are subsidizing sale of PS5 Pro. So you lost on two hardware SKU's sold to the customer in span of 4 years.
How exactly does that make business sense?
Second option is to not subsidized PS5 Pro, but from what Totoki said recently, they can't even bring PS5 down in price because margins are razor thin. So you are looking at 600$ - 700$ console. And good luck selling that...
Re: Sony May Have Made the Right Call Not Copying Xbox Game Pass with PS Plus
@GeeEssEff Well.
Since new CEO of PlayStation is finance guy and since PS Plus already hit it's ceiling (so much so that Sony stopped reporting PS Plus numbers), I fully expect that they will go to the second phase of lifecycle of service "pulling more money from one customer" so I don't expect that those "good deals" lasting very long tbh.
Re: Sony May Have Made the Right Call Not Copying Xbox Game Pass with PS Plus
@GeeEssEff Okay. I'm not arguing that Sony have to do "day and date" first-party games. But. If they are not willing to do that, it would be nice, if price of PS Plus Extra reflected that.
Currently, PS Plus Extra is 13,99€ in my region, while Game Pass Ultimate is 14,99€. For one € extra I have access to "day and date" games.
I'm currently subscribed to both Xbox Game Pass Ultimate and PS Plus Extra and it's not even a contest between those two services. Not only through "day and date" first-party games, but also third-party games that are coming to Game Pass day one/EA Play inclusion and access to streaming.
Only reason why I'm not fully regretting subscribing to the PS Plus Extra is because I managed to snag a deal for 12 months of PS Plus Extra for 72€. Which is exactly the price where you can say "it's worth it." But I can't imagine to continue my subscription for full price.
Re: Sony Shares Drop Sharply After Prediction PS5 Growth Has Peaked
@Suppressed Sony already knows about release of PS5 Pro and they still expect gradual decline in sales.
So it's pretty clear that PS5 Pro wouldn't move a needle that much. It will be either brutally expensive (600$+), or heavily subsidized by Sony, or both.
And considering fact that only 14,3 million of 117+ million of PlayStation 4 was Pro consoles, everybody who thinks that Pro will bring reversal of fortune is setting themselves up for disappointment.
Re: Sony May Have Made the Right Call Not Copying Xbox Game Pass with PS Plus
I'm kinda baffled with these types of articles. Instead of requesting as much value as possible from corporation, people are cheerleading getting less value for same price as competition.
truly strange.
insert "but what about a corporation" meme
Re: Reaction: Xbox Is Bringing Some Great Games to PS5, But Rumours Will Remain Rampant About What's Next
It's pretty obvious where things are heading long term. To everybody who isn't a dumb fanboy.
Even new PlayStation president said that - console market isn't growing and Microsoft and Sony needs to find new audience ie. PC market and "other consoles" market. Which is obvious since big AAA games are increasingly becoming unsustainable and things will only become worse and worse.
Sony is effectively mirroring Microsoft's strategy, but because they have higher instalbase of console players, they have a cushion of doing that slowly. At first it was staggered PC releases. Then it was day one PC releases and last step is staggered "other consoles" releases or "you don't ned a console, because we have streaming service."
So yeah. Starfield will eventually end up on PlayStation 5. Several years after Xbox release when nobody from Xbox audience will even care anymore. But I think that by the end of this gen, same thing will be true even for games like Spider-Man 2.
Sony is basically currently in position where Xbox was in 2016-2017. And they are following almost each step except first-party games in sub service day one.
Re: Rumour: Xbox Has Considered Microsoft Flight Simulator, Gears of War, and DOOM for PS5
Yeah. More rumors. Like those, that Starfield is hiting PlayStation 5 this year.
Re: Xbox Is Bringing Four Exclusives to PS5, But It Won't Say Which
@Kraven Yeah. Microsoft is responsible for people kneejerk reactions base on words of "insiders"
Jesus.
Re: Microsoft Exec on Helldivers 2: I'm Not Sure Who It Helps By Not Being on Xbox
I mean. He is right.
Game is already on PC day one. So you don't need PlayStation to play it. And it isn't a system seller. So if Xbox port existed, nothing would have happened. Except Sony having more money. Which they kinda need.
Re: Sony Plans to Improve Profit Margins with 'Aggressive' PC Release Strategy
@truerbluer
If you expect Nixxes to be responsible for bigger workload because you want to port your games on PC day one, you can just staff it up accordingly. "Studio is too small" is just stupid excuse. Especially since releasing your game on PC will bring you way way way more sales. Just look at Helldivers 2.
Spider-Man 2 was buggy, because Sony forced it to release in october, because Insomniac exceeded budget and all marketing (and release of PS5 Slim) was tied to release of that game. If PC was supposed to be released day one, then they would obviously throw more people into mix during development to have both versions ready...duh?
Devs are setting hardware requirements. If they want to do stuff with their game that needs to use XYZ GB/s transfer speeds, they can just put "NVMe gen 4." in requirements. Pretty simple if you ask me. Loading times in PC version are usually slower, because not many devs are using DirectStore, which will be resolved as time passes.
Xbox gamers don't care in slightest that they have to pay to play online in Sea of Thieves while PC players don't need to. Because , they can burn through 1000$ to build a PC instead buying 450$ console if they want to. It's about choice. You know what consequences, advantages and disadvantages each choice has. Yeah, they bitched about it at first, but now they don't care.
We can talk about it more, but facts are that console market is stagnant, and currently PS5 is on pace to not even sell as many consoles as PS4 did. And development costs are ballooning. Sony knows that, Microsoft knows that. Nintendo doesn't care currently because they are not making graphically intensive games, so they don't cost that much to develop.
It's pretty clear that 115 million PS owners is absolute roof that Sony can count on. They need to have PC audience if they want to throw 300 million dollars into development of one game whether you like it or not.
Re: Sony Plans to Improve Profit Margins with 'Aggressive' PC Release Strategy
@truerbluer Lol. Why would be a development time longer? Like I get that optimising game for PC takes a time, but sales will be way higher so you can put more people on the project. Sony even has Nixxes (PC port studio) that can be thrown from project to project to optimise PC versions before release.
Same for "games will be worse." Spider-Man 2 was pretty buggy (for standard of PS Studios games) and it was PS5 release only.
And that "build around PS5 SSD" argument is just laughable. You know that PC currently boasts way higher transfer speeds for SSD then PlayStation 5, right?
And I mean, yeah. PC version will probably be cheaper and won't require PS Plus for online play. But I don't understand why it is a problem. You have choice - spend less on hardware (console), but pay more for online play and games or spend way more on hardware and pay less for game with free online.
Re: Sony Plans to Improve Profit Margins with 'Aggressive' PC Release Strategy
It's just obvious that sooner or later, first-party games will be transformed into "timed exclusives."
Dev budgets are ballooning like crazy and you can't just ignore 50 million Xbox owners and ***** of PC gamers that could buy your game and bring you higher ROI.
We are living in age when Insomniac had to sell 7,2 million copies of Spider-Man 2 at full price just to break even. And since new CEO of PlayStation is financial guy, I fully expect him to chase as high ROI as possible.
Just imagine world where Xbox will port their games on PlayStation 12 months after release and Sony will do the same with their games. Both companies would fight on merits of hardware and services. Wouldn't be world a better place?
Re: Sony Plans to Improve Profit Margins with 'Aggressive' PC Release Strategy
@AdamNovice So what?
Helldivers 2 was released on PC day one and it hit 200k concurent on Steam. There is no way that those players didn't pay for port and added into ROI.
Re: PS5 Sales Touch 55 Million As Sony Breaks Revenue Records
@themightyant No, they are talking about slowdown in sales for next fiscal year ie. from april 2024 to march 2025. Which just isn't good no matter, how you slice it.
If PS6 is slated for 2028, we are still in first half of PS5 lifecycle and Sony is already expecting dropof in sales, which didn't happen in 4th year of PS4 on the market while PS5 is already lagging behind PS4.
And I mean. I don't even need to argue about "is situation fine?" Totoki already hinted during Q&A that they are looking at multiplatform releases for first-party games, that studios needs to reign in spending and they need to raise their margins. He is basically saying that business is not growing in console space and they need to cut costs while expanding towards new audience.
Re: PS5 Sales Touch 55 Million As Sony Breaks Revenue Records
@themightyant The reason why I sent this link
https://www.gameinformer.com/sites/default/files/styles/body_default/public/2022/05/26/90660446/sony_page.jpg
in my first post was to demonstrate, that Sony predicted that PS5 will surpass sales of PS4.
And I argued that slowing sales of PS5 are a problem specifically, because SIE management forecasted exact oposite. Worst thing in business is not hitting your expectations.
Yes, PS5 is currently "only" 2,4 million behind PS4. But since Sony is already hinting at slowdown of sales, while PS4 hit it's peak during 4th year on the market, it is the problem only exaggerated by ballooning investments. Also, slowdown is strange since they are supposed to be releasing PS5 Pro. And with Switch 2 launch their position may be even worse.
Re: PS5 Sales Touch 55 Million As Sony Breaks Revenue Records
@themightyant It matters hugely. Because Sony management wants to see growth. Not selling same amount or even less consoles as in previous gen.
And it's pretty clear, that console market is just limited and it's not growing. So Sony needs to find new growth vector if PlayStation 5 is selling worse than PlayStation 4.
I mean. Just look at the numbers. They have 10 billion in revenue with 6% operating margins. That's just pitiful.
Or look at that in this way.
Spider-Man was developed at 100 million budget, sold at 60$ to audience of 115 million PlayStation 4 users
Spider-Man 2 was developed at 300 million budget, sold at 70$ to an audience of decreasing PlayStation owners.
Do you see the problem? Their investment into development of game tripled, they are only selling game with 10$ price increase to a decreasing audience.
Re: PS5 Sales Touch 55 Million As Sony Breaks Revenue Records
@get2sammyb "It’s also lost a little pace on the PS4 launch aligned, which had an install base of 57.1 million units at this point in its lifecycle. Obviously, the PS5 had crippling stock shortages for its first few years on the market, though."
Sony predicted that once PS5 surpass sales of PS4 in Year 4, it will stay ahead. But Sony said that they are expecting dropoff in PS5 sales, so it doesn't look like it will surpass PS4 at all.
https://www.gameinformer.com/sites/default/files/styles/body_default/public/2022/05/26/90660446/sony_page.jpg
Re: Sony Slashes PS5 Forecast to 21 Million for Fiscal Year
They are not even hitting that. They are currently at 16,4 million during fiscal year so they need to sell 4,6 million PlayStation 5 consoles during january-march to hit 21 million.
FY Q4 (january-march) is historically worst period for console sales (last year was an exception because it was first quarter when PS5 supply addressed demand) and even with slashed prices I really doubt will hit that number.
They also fell behind PS4. And without major first-party games until march 2025 I really doubt that PS5 will sell as good as PS4. Which is kinda big problem.
Re: PS5 Goes for the Kill with New Discounts in Europe
It makes sense, since that Taiwanese business web informed, that Sony had to cut production of PS5 because they have full warehouse of consoles, because they oversupplied during holiday.
I really doubt that they will hit 25 million during current fiscal year.
Re: Pentiment Pegged for PS5 Amid Ongoing Xbox Strategy Shift Rumours
Lol. So we went from Indiana Jones and Starfield to Pentiment, Sea of Thieves and Hi-Fi Rush?
Like, don't get me wrong, both Hi-Fi Rush and Pentiment are great. But it will hardly hurt Microsoft's position on console market when they will port those games. They were not a system sellers and they were not supposed to be one. Not to mention Sea of Thieves which is 6 years old.
It's literally like if Sony decided to port Concrete Genie to Xbox.
Re: Helldivers 2 Is 'Blowing Through Estimates', Around 1 Million Sales In Less Than a Week
@Voltan CEO of Arrowhead said that game hit 220k CCU at the time when Steam was peaking at 156k. So I'm going from his info...
Edit: okay. my bad. I didn't read most recent tweet.
Re: Helldivers 2 Is 'Blowing Through Estimates', Around 1 Million Sales In Less Than a Week
I wonder what will be Sony's response in future in terms of releasing their games on PC day one.
Because Helldivers 2 has way more players on PC then on PlayStation 5, so game clearly benefited from linked marketing push.
Re: Microsoft Employee Inadvertently Adds More Fuel to the Xbox Multiplatform Fire
@naruball Because as I already told you, Microsoft already IS third party publisher, so even if his bio was left intact it doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means.
He had his profile like that for month and nobody cared, until one Twitter user pointed it out and people connected it to recent events.
Re: Microsoft Employee Inadvertently Adds More Fuel to the Xbox Multiplatform Fire
@naruball This article is exact reason why.
Because especially since this week's events, people are literally grasping for any straw to fit their narrative.
And I'm not saying that rumors about Microsoft porting their games on PlayStation are not true.
I'm just saying that Microsoft is already third-party publisher in some cases (Minecraft, TESO, F76, Call of Duty, Diablo, Overwatch etc.), so it's obvious that they need to take care about all platforms in Asia. But people will read it and immediately put it alongside other rumors from last several days.
Re: Microsoft Employee Inadvertently Adds More Fuel to the Xbox Multiplatform Fire
Last time I checked, Minecraft is on all platforms and COD will be too. So this is probably weakest "proof" or "hint" in existence of universe.
Re: PS5, PS4 First-Party Devs Won't Get Complacent Even if Competition Degrades
@naruball Hogwarts Legacy is cross-gen game. And it also took almost one year to develop functioning port that is so constrained that I'm baffled somebody bought it.
Switch sold 140 million consoles and is largely ignored by big third parties. Ports are either late or non-existent. So let's not pretend that every big multiplatform game is on Switch.
People rejected PS3 with high price, because they had alternative. Xbox 360 that was cheaper and ran majority of games better. It took Sony to make cheaper and better Slim model to put up fight. So you exactly proved my point that competition is needed.
Re: PS5, PS4 First-Party Devs Won't Get Complacent Even if Competition Degrades
@naruball Switch 2 is rumored to be even less powerful then Series S. So I bet AAA game devs will have just a great time porting their games on system when they are already complaining about Series S power...
You are literally proving my point. Yes, Sony currently can take a risk with games, because they are competing to create ecosystem that people will prefer over competition. With competition (in hardware space) gone, there is no incentive to bet on projects that doesn't have 100% chance of being successful and bringing huge ROI.
Same thing with consoles. When there is competition (Series X), Sony have incentive to price their console in line with competition and therefore taking loss on hardware. In market where isn't any competing hardware, there is no reason for Sony to take a loss on hardware. So I hope, people are prepared for 700$ PS6
Re: PS5, PS4 First-Party Devs Won't Get Complacent Even if Competition Degrades
@naruball People will buy console, because they want consoles. They don't want PC. And if their only option for playing AAA multiplatform games would be PlayStation (Switch can't run 99% of AAA multiplatform games), they will buy PlayStation even without exclusives.
And I'm not talking about Spider-Man, because that's somehow safe bet. I'm talking about risky projects like new IP's, studios like Sony Bend that isn't making 100% hits etc.
It's about ROI. If you can spend your investment $ in thing that will bring you more money, you will do that. Instead of giving 300 million dollars to a studio that will bring you back 400 millions.
And let's stop dreaming about "another company entering space." Only two companies have money that are required to enter gaming industry as a platform holder. Apple and Google. And Google already tried.
Competition is crucial. If there wasn't an Xbox 360, Sony wouldn't be in position of need to nurture first-party studios. If there wasn't a PS4, Microsoft would get away with Xbox One DRM policies. If it wasn't for Game Pass, Sony wouldn't make PS Plus Extra/Premium which are 100x better then old PS Now offerings.
Just remember what happened last time when Sony felt that their position on the market is untouchable.
Re: PS5, PS4 First-Party Devs Won't Get Complacent Even if Competition Degrades
@UltimateOtaku91 I really doubt that.
Every month of delay is 200+ devs (in big AA projects) on payroll without any ROI. And game budgets for big AAA SP games are already on verge of being unsustainable.
Xbox is in no way, shape of form pressuring Sony to release their games in shape that they are not ready. Financial reality of game development is doing that. Spider-Man 2 was released in buggy state (for standards of PlayStation Studios) not because of Xbox, but because game already exceeded it's budget, it was tied with release of PS5 Slim (through bundles), and millions of dollars on marketing was already invested and slated for October release.
Re: PS5, PS4 First-Party Devs Won't Get Complacent Even if Competition Degrades
Ehh. Nobody is questioning "complacency" of devs to create great games.
But if Xbox really leaves console making, what reason would Sony have to invest in 300+ million big budget SP games? Currently it's huge risk which we saw with Spider-Man 2 that has to sold 7,5 million copies to at least break even.
Answer is none. Currently, Sony is using exclusives to draw people into their ecosystem where people then spend money on third-party stuff where Sony is getting 30% from every transaction. That's basically how consoles are working in past 4 generations. But with Xbox consoles gone, investing 300+ million into SP game is just pitiful investment with low ROI, because your console will be "console of choice" even without those games.
Re: Evidence of Rockin' Xbox Exclusive Hi-Fi Rush Coming to PS5 Continues to Mount
@GamingFan4Lyf Well, audience decides what system seller is. Sony found out that their audience likes third-person action adventure games so they steered in that direction.
Microsoft has Game Pass so they are betting on variety of content.
Nintendo is showing that "system seller" can be game from almost any genre. Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario, Pikmin, Xenoblade etc.
I would dare to say that Starfield was system seller, because it pushed Xbox consoles and also Game Pass, which is it's job and despite not really stellar reviews. And I expect Indiana Jones to move good number of consoles despite fact that game is first-person. And then you have Forza Horizon which is staple of racing genre and is always moving consoles. And I expect Fable (third person RPG), Perfect Dark (FPS) and Quake (FPS) to do the same if they will be quality titles.
Re: Evidence of Rockin' Xbox Exclusive Hi-Fi Rush Coming to PS5 Continues to Mount
I see no drawback for Microsoft.
It's small niche game. It wasn't system seller and it was never supposed to be one. It's an equivalent of Sony porting Concrete Genie to Xbox and Switch.
Microsoft will get additional money from Sony/Nintendo players (like in case of Ori on Switch) and players will get to experience one of the best games from 2023.
Re: Could Sony, Hideo Kojima's Physint Be the First Announced PS6 Game?
Yeah. There is no way that this new game will be done before 2030.
Even if Death Stranding 2 won't suffer from any delays (which is always a possibility) and will release in 2025, you are looking at 5-6 years AAA development (which is standard currently). Not to mention fact that Kojima is also working on OD for Xbox.