I watch the review of this show and yeah, it seems either the author of this show didn't play even 1 minute of the game, or actually hate the game and want to make another show.
It's so tiring to see another "actually the demon is good and the human is bad", make me wonder why the author seems to sympathize with the demons. I bet he hates frieren anime lol.
One of the best ex-exclusive games for ps4, I remember cant stop smiling while playing the game, the remake is just so right, the graphics is how I imagine ff7 psone back then, the voice too, they have perfect cast for cloud, tifa, aerith, barret, etc.
I haven't play the sequel yet, I didn't like the difference between the original story and the remake in the first game, but it seems in the sequel the difference is greater with different timeline and stuff.
@PuppetMaster Sony should really provides us with cheaper $20 subs only for cloud saving and getting psn games discount, I rarely play the "free" games since I have a lot of backlog. I just want cloud saves for peace of mind, it's not worth $80
Nice, I want this, I hope other games get this too especially indie, play 4K on ps5 and 120 fps on switch 2, buy the game on both console, one on launch or near launch, the other when discounted. Playstation portal is good but the screen isn't 120hz compared to switch 2, and it's annoying if my internet goes down for 1 or 2 minutes I disconnected from the portal.
Man it's kind of surreal looking at 1080p & 120 fps and 4K & 60 fps option on switch 2 metroid 4, finally nintendo is using modern hardware again π
I'm not affected since it's not my country, psplus is cheaper in my country but I already have a lot of games on my usa account since ps3 days, but after the price hike to $80 I'm not subscribing anymore, it's not worth it since I already have a lot of backlog anyway.
Only nintendo subs is worth is since at least it's cheap, $20 for the basic (alone) or $50 for the expansion plus but using the family pack with friends at $12 peryear. And it got gamecube games for the new switch 2, finally I can play soul calibur 2 on tv with console other than wii u π
It's smart for nintendo to add camera function to their party game series rather than making camera only game like sony, I'm sure nintendo camera will be way more used for games compared to sony eye toy back then
A successful console always always make the higher-ups executive head bigger and become drunk with success, see ps2 with ps3, ps4 to ps5, switch 1 to switch 2, etc.
To them, goodwill is a currency to be spend, they become a good company to acquire goodwill when they just got up from failure console (ps3 and wii u), and spend their goodwill when making sequel to their successful console (ps4 and switch 1) π
I think the problem with switch 2 is just 2 things, the first is the $80 price (it should be max $70), and the second one is their switch 2 manual game should be included.
Really interested in switch 2 for the console exclusive games and upgrade for my old games on switch. I hope the maximum price for its games is $70 though, $80 is just too much π
I just wait for the sales, and for nintendo games I begrudgingly buy it (since they're rarely on sales) for the games that I think worth it, like new 3D mario, 3D donkeykong, etc.
It will be like nintendo 64 era I guess, where I only have a couple of nintendo games since the cartridge is so expensive compared to playstation one cd lol.
Iβm hyped about the switch 2 with the exception of its games price, forget sony $70, nintendo goes straight to $80 π
But yeah, Iβm gonna buy the $500 bundle so I can play mario kart world at $50 compared to buying it straight, and since I have nintendo subs expansion I guess I donβt have to pay $10 for zelda botw (and hopefully other games). And getting other games upgrade free is nice too, like zelda link awakening.
Itβs not that sony is better, itβs just nintendo is worse. Why nearly every successful console usually followed by bad decisions after bad decisions π
This is so stupid, at first I though it's nice nintendo make tutorial about their console, and yet they sold them?! Isn't $80 for Mario kart world isn't enough for them?
No thanks, but I'm not worried about it since I can wait for a discount, I worried about nintendo games because their games rarely discounted π
I guess my answer is "I'll wait for a discount" for 3rd party games, and for a very small set of games, "I'll only pay it for select titles, and grudgingly".
New 3D mario, donkey kong, mario kart world, elden ring 2, and maybe final fantasy 17 if it's good, yeah I'll pay $80, but for others I'll wait for a discount.
@Ainu20 It's not fraud, maybe it's true there's 3 million players but they only "rent" it by subbing to ubisoft subs for 1 month at $15 and finished the game rather than bought it at full $70.
This is microsoft strategy too using "players number" instead of sales when their exclusive games didn't sells as much as sony back then. I still remember "millions of bullet fired" stat for halo 4 or 5, lol.
Yes because nintendo have exlusive games, so of course I'm gonna buy it. I don't know about my main console, but if it can play games like elden ring and hogwart legacy at 60 fps maybe the console will be my main.
I'm hyped for this, capcom and others japanese devs are on fire this gen compared to western devs. Not to mention we've also going to get gta 6 and switch 2 this year, man 2025 will be a hype years for gaming π
I think he isn't right but if I'm in the same position I'll choose the same as joel, that's why the first game is so great, it give you question where's every players will have different answer.
There's also the possibility the organization will use it wrongly, not to heal mankind but to gain power themselves.
Handphone/tablet gaming are different than console/portable gaming, each have it's own customers, I don't think people that like to play games on phone like to play on console and vice versa.
I mean it sucked for the voice actor, but in the end of course theyβre going to be replaced if mihoyo canβt agree with sag-aftra. It sucked for the player too but thereβs no way the player will stop playing the game just because the characters voice is different.
I still remember getting annoyed that snake voice actors (david hayter) is replaced way back when metal gear solid 5 come out, lol.
@Lup My dude, japanese people like ghost of tsushima so much that their devs (fix and connel) named as tourism ambassadors for Tsushima Island, while ac shadows got japanese goverment talk about the game controversy.
I guess ghost of tsushima is made because people at sucker punch love japan, while ubisoft made ac shadows because making ac in japan seems will give them more money, they don't care about japan at all. I think ubisoft though we asian people are the same, that's why they mix china building in japan setting lol.
Oh well, I think we should just move on, let the game do the talking, will it succeed or will it fail, only time will tell.
@Lup In the end ac shadows should be a slam dunk like ghost of tsushima rather than.. this. My original point from a couple of months ago still stand, ubisoft should fired their consultant and change it to sony ghost of tsushima japan consultant instead.
@Lup Maybe japanese people respect the lady since her descendant is still living in japan. And her descendants are royal in japan, so uh, maybe they're pretty angry that the loyal lady oichi is decripted in the game as someone who's having casual s*x with foreigner.
Ubisoft should sue the heck of the japanese consultant that ubisoft hired since they're really really useless, isn't ubisoft hiring consultant is to prevent controversy like this?
Of course it's a side project, we can't have ps2 and psp remaster in this current year climate, it will be "hr approved" god of war like ragnarok I guess, lol.
@Boxmonkey It's kind of sad and tiring that's only one games store (valve steam) show good faith to gamers while all others gaming corporations are hostile to gamers. I'm still hoping for 2 hour refund on sony and nintendo store π
@glennthefrog Now I think even (usa) goverment censor is different, year 2000 era is like ages ago, back then gaming isn't big as now, especially after covid where every investors put their money into gaming.
And I think there's money and national interest to be made in the censoring business, that's why some games can show nudity (tlou 2, cyberpunk 2077, baldur's gate 3), and why I'm sure stellar blade will be made AO (adult only) if it even show smidgen of nudity, lol.
Soo players, not sold? I understand why games publishers hate steam, we the players can actually know of the game successfull or not by watching steam chart so games publishers can't lie to its investors.
@PuppetMaster Jeanne d'Arc is Good, I played and finished it on psp way back then π
In the case of this game though, I heard even fans hate this game story so it's kind of the devs fault the game isn't selling.
In the case of gow ragnarok and spider-man 2 I think it's the power of the first game that make the sequel sells a lot. I platinum ps4 gow 1 while I only played maybe 1-2 hours of gow ragnarok before getting bored, that's why although I platinum ps4 spider-man 1, I waited for a let's play of the game before buying it, and man I'm glad I didn't bought spider-man 2. Metaphor and baldur gate 3 gameplay and story is good so it sells.
Ps. It really nice of sony to honor my purchase of the game (jeanne d'arc) and make it available free on my ps5 account. I played the game on umd on psp, and bought it again digitally on psvita π
@naruball Tearaway psvita is great, tearaway on ps4 is good but lost most of it charm. Still worth playing it on ps4 though if you don't have psvita imo.
Nope, but I have fun watching the youtube video about the game. For example, I just found out the woman that yasuke can romance in the game is famous in japan as a very loyal wife that choose to be killed with his husband when they lose the war, of course ubisoft make that woman (lady oichi) make out with yasuke π
At this point I think ubisoft really hate japan and that the game story is just some fantasy of the writer lol.
Gaming is too expensive in the west to make, so publishers didn't want to take risk that can bankrupt them. I think In the end AAA games will be just too expensive to be made in usa and only be made in other country, with the exception like fortnite, cod, and gta, the rest is indie gaming and AA gaming (like robocop rogue city or Split fiction).
Yup, beside looks at western developers now, all the firing and a mess of underwhelming games, it's foolish for japanese (or any country) developers to appeal to western. Just let japanese games be japanese.
So they can censor youtubers that gave negative coverage of their game? I have never see anyone from ubisoft harassed on twitter because of this game, ubisoft just want to censor any negative news about this game, they gave youtubers a strike rather than cease & desist so youtubers didn't dare gave the game negative impression. Yeah, I'm done supporting ubisoft.
I watched the let's play of this game a couple of years ago, the story is horrifying but really good. The gameplay is typical adventure games at that time though, it's a bit confusing.
Comments 9,228
Re: Netflix's Devil May Cry Has Been Such a Hit a Second Season Has Already Been Confirmed
I watch the review of this show and yeah, it seems either the author of this show didn't play even 1 minute of the game, or actually hate the game and want to make another show.
It's so tiring to see another "actually the demon is good and the human is bad", make me wonder why the author seems to sympathize with the demons. I bet he hates frieren anime lol.
Re: Poll: 5 Years Later, How Do You Feel About Final Fantasy 7 Remake?
One of the best ex-exclusive games for ps4, I remember cant stop smiling while playing the game, the remake is just so right, the graphics is how I imagine ff7 psone back then, the voice too, they have perfect cast for cloud, tifa, aerith, barret, etc.
I haven't play the sequel yet, I didn't like the difference between the original story and the remake in the first game, but it seems in the sequel the difference is greater with different timeline and stuff.
Re: PS Plus Price Increases Confirmed for 15 Countries by Sony
@PuppetMaster Sony should really provides us with cheaper $20 subs only for cloud saving and getting psn games discount, I rarely play the "free" games since I have a lot of backlog. I just want cloud saves for peace of mind, it's not worth $80
Re: You'll Be Able to Transfer Your Cyberpunk 2077 Progress from PS5 to Switch 2
Nice, I want this, I hope other games get this too especially indie, play 4K on ps5 and 120 fps on switch 2, buy the game on both console, one on launch or near launch, the other when discounted. Playstation portal is good but the screen isn't 120hz compared to switch 2, and it's annoying if my internet goes down for 1 or 2 minutes I disconnected from the portal.
Man it's kind of surreal looking at 1080p & 120 fps and 4K & 60 fps option on switch 2 metroid 4, finally nintendo is using modern hardware again π
Re: PS Plus Price Increases Confirmed for 15 Countries by Sony
I'm not affected since it's not my country, psplus is cheaper in my country but I already have a lot of games on my usa account since ps3 days, but after the price hike to $80 I'm not subscribing anymore, it's not worth it since I already have a lot of backlog anyway.
Only nintendo subs is worth is since at least it's cheap, $20 for the basic (alone) or $50 for the expansion plus but using the family pack with friends at $12 peryear. And it got gamecube games for the new switch 2, finally I can play soul calibur 2 on tv with console other than wii u π
Re: EyeToy Era Gameplay Is Making a Comeback, And No One Really Noticed
It's smart for nintendo to add camera function to their party game series rather than making camera only game like sony, I'm sure nintendo camera will be way more used for games compared to sony eye toy back then
Re: Nintendo Is Displaying Hubris Which Would Make Even PS3 Era Sony Blush
A successful console always always make the higher-ups executive head bigger and become drunk with success, see ps2 with ps3, ps4 to ps5, switch 1 to switch 2, etc.
To them, goodwill is a currency to be spend, they become a good company to acquire goodwill when they just got up from failure console (ps3 and wii u), and spend their goodwill when making sequel to their successful console (ps4 and switch 1) π
I think the problem with switch 2 is just 2 things, the first is the $80 price (it should be max $70), and the second one is their switch 2 manual game should be included.
Re: PlayStation Is Dying to Know What You Think of Nintendo Switch 2 in Player Survey
Really interested in switch 2 for the console exclusive games and upgrade for my old games on switch. I hope the maximum price for its games is $70 though, $80 is just too much π
Re: Almost All PS5 Fans Are Against $80 Games
I just wait for the sales, and for nintendo games I begrudgingly buy it (since they're rarely on sales) for the games that I think worth it, like new 3D mario, 3D donkeykong, etc.
It will be like nintendo 64 era I guess, where I only have a couple of nintendo games since the cartridge is so expensive compared to playstation one cd lol.
Re: Shuhei Yoshida on the Switch 2 Direct: 'Underwhelming Until FromSoftware Showed Up'
Iβm hyped about the switch 2 with the exception of its games price, forget sony $70, nintendo goes straight to $80 π
But yeah, Iβm gonna buy the $500 bundle so I can play mario kart world at $50 compared to buying it straight, and since I have nintendo subs expansion I guess I donβt have to pay $10 for zelda botw (and hopefully other games). And getting other games upgrade free is nice too, like zelda link awakening.
Re: Feature: PS5's Not Perfect, But Here Are 5 Ways It's More Consumer Friendly Than Switch 2
Itβs not that sony is better, itβs just nintendo is worse. Why nearly every successful console usually followed by bad decisions after bad decisions π
Re: Nintendo Copies the Astro Bot Concept, Sells You Switch 2's Tutorial
This is so stupid, at first I though it's nice nintendo make tutorial about their console, and yet they sold them?! Isn't $80 for Mario kart world isn't enough for them?
Re: Switch 2 Goes for the Kill in Japan By Massively Undercutting PS5's Price
Smart, most of it will be scalped and sold to other country since japan console is cheaper, good for nintendo I guess.
The problem isn't the price of the console though, it's the price of it's games π
Re: Talking Point: What Are Your Thoughts on Potential $80 PS5 Games?
No thanks, but I'm not worried about it since I can wait for a discount, I worried about nintendo games because their games rarely discounted π
I guess my answer is "I'll wait for a discount" for 3rd party games, and for a very small set of games, "I'll only pay it for select titles, and grudgingly".
New 3D mario, donkey kong, mario kart world, elden ring 2, and maybe final fantasy 17 if it's good, yeah I'll pay $80, but for others I'll wait for a discount.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows a Big Sales Hit in US, Beaten Only By Monster Hunter Wilds
@Ainu20 It's not fraud, maybe it's true there's 3 million players but they only "rent" it by subbing to ubisoft subs for 1 month at $15 and finished the game rather than bought it at full $70.
This is microsoft strategy too using "players number" instead of sales when their exclusive games didn't sells as much as sony back then. I still remember "millions of bullet fired" stat for halo 4 or 5, lol.
Re: Poll: PS5 Fans, Are You Sold on the Nintendo Switch 2?
Yes because nintendo have exlusive games, so of course I'm gonna buy it. I don't know about my main console, but if it can play games like elden ring and hogwart legacy at 60 fps maybe the console will be my main.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows a Big Sales Hit in US, Beaten Only By Monster Hunter Wilds
Where's the sales number, at this point I think ubisoft just lying to investor about the game success (or lack of) so the publisher stock didn't tank.
Re: Over 70% of PS5 Fans Want Sony to License More of Its Dead Franchises Out
Sony should just give gravity rush series to bandai namco since they're not going to do anything with the series π
Re: PS5's Onimusha: Way of the Sword Is a Gory, Linear, 20-Hour Action Game, and Basically a Reboot
I'm hyped for this, capcom and others japanese devs are on fire this gen compared to western devs. Not to mention we've also going to get gta 6 and switch 2 this year, man 2025 will be a hype years for gaming π
Re: Mortal Kombat Is Koming to Fortnite This Week, Including Scorpion, Raiden, Kitana Skins
This design is way better than the MK1 version π
Re: Sony Reportedly Gearing Up to Sell You The Last of Us on PS5 One More Time
The last of remaster π
Re: Promising PS5, PS4 Action RPG Delays Its Release Date Because It's Just Too Popular
Looks good, although I kind of have backlog problem now, bought too many games at previous discount event at psn π
Usually bought this kind of games for switch but with ps portal now I bought indie/non AAA games on ps5 too.
Re: Halo Series Might Not Come to PS5 in the Way You're Thinking
That's suck, I want Halo Bungie Collection, not 343 halo. I hope this is false and microsoft will release Halo Master Chief Collection on ps5.
Re: The Last of Us Boss Answers Its Most Profound Question: Was Joel Right?
I think he isn't right but if I'm in the same position I'll choose the same as joel, that's why the first game is so great, it give you question where's every players will have different answer.
There's also the possibility the organization will use it wrongly, not to heal mankind but to gain power themselves.
Re: Analyst Firm Predicts Some Pretty Unimpressive Sales Numbers for Xbox Ports on PS5
Just give me gears of war 1-3 and halo 1-3 Microsoft, and I'll be playing it on day one on ps5 π
Re: Kids Aren't Dreaming of Owning a PS6, Says Netflix Games Boss
Handphone/tablet gaming are different than console/portable gaming, each have it's own customers, I don't think people that like to play games on phone like to play on console and vice versa.
Re: Genshin Impact Community in Flames as English Cast Turn on New Voice Actor
I mean it sucked for the voice actor, but in the end of course theyβre going to be replaced if mihoyo canβt agree with sag-aftra. It sucked for the player too but thereβs no way the player will stop playing the game just because the characters voice is different.
I still remember getting annoyed that snake voice actors (david hayter) is replaced way back when metal gear solid 5 come out, lol.
Re: Marvel Cosmic Invasion Is Your Next Must Play PS5, PS4 Beat-'em-Up
They definitely should do golden axe next, just add a little bit of blood here and there and make the game more serious
Re: Poll: Are You Playing Assassin's Creed Shadows?
@Lup My dude, japanese people like ghost of tsushima so much that their devs (fix and connel) named as tourism ambassadors for Tsushima Island, while ac shadows got japanese goverment talk about the game controversy.
I guess ghost of tsushima is made because people at sucker punch love japan, while ubisoft made ac shadows because making ac in japan seems will give them more money, they don't care about japan at all. I think ubisoft though we asian people are the same, that's why they mix china building in japan setting lol.
Oh well, I think we should just move on, let the game do the talking, will it succeed or will it fail, only time will tell.
Re: Poll: Are You Playing Assassin's Creed Shadows?
@Lup In the end ac shadows should be a slam dunk like ghost of tsushima rather than.. this. My original point from a couple of months ago still stand, ubisoft should fired their consultant and change it to sony ghost of tsushima japan consultant instead.
Re: PS Plus Essential Games for April 2025 Announced
Sigh, I just bought robocop a couple of days ago.. Oh well I've bought it discounted to $10 though.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows Gets Positive Reviews In Japan as Bayonetta Director Speaks Out
Really? It's way different from the let's play I've seen, especially the story and voice, lol.
Re: Japan's Game Industry on Impressive Rise as Western AAA Development Struggles
Let the AAA western industry burn, and hope that from it ashes rise stronger western AAA industry comparable to ps2, xbox 360, ps3 and early ps4 era.
Man I have fun playing halo, gears of war, god of war, and other great games that the western AAA developers make back then
Re: Poll: Are You Playing Assassin's Creed Shadows?
@Lup Maybe japanese people respect the lady since her descendant is still living in japan. And her descendants are royal in japan, so uh, maybe they're pretty angry that the loyal lady oichi is decripted in the game as someone who's having casual s*x with foreigner.
Ubisoft should sue the heck of the japanese consultant that ubisoft hired since they're really really useless, isn't ubisoft hiring consultant is to prevent controversy like this?
Re: Poll: Are You Playing Assassin's Creed Shadows?
@Lup You can see the japanese amazon reviews yourself to see whether japanese gamers are annoyed at this game or not, don't shoot the messanger, lol.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows Devs Thank Fans for Its 'Incredibly Heartwarming' Reception
Especially fans in japan, really heart warming, even the japanese goverment reception π
Re: Rumour: New God of War PS5 Game Returns to Greece This Year
Of course it's a side project, we can't have ps2 and psp remaster in this current year climate, it will be "hr approved" god of war like ragnarok I guess, lol.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows Now Surpasses 2 Million Players in Two Days
@Boxmonkey It's kind of sad and tiring that's only one games store (valve steam) show good faith to gamers while all others gaming corporations are hostile to gamers. I'm still hoping for 2 hour refund on sony and nintendo store π
Re: God of War Fans Gutted with Free 20th Anniversary Goodies
@glennthefrog Now I think even (usa) goverment censor is different, year 2000 era is like ages ago, back then gaming isn't big as now, especially after covid where every investors put their money into gaming.
And I think there's money and national interest to be made in the censoring business, that's why some games can show nudity (tlou 2, cyberpunk 2077, baldur's gate 3), and why I'm sure stellar blade will be made AO (adult only) if it even show smidgen of nudity, lol.
Re: Assassin's Creed Shadows Soars Past 1 Million Players at Launch
Soo players, not sold? I understand why games publishers hate steam, we the players can actually know of the game successfull or not by watching steam chart so games publishers can't lie to its investors.
Re: Life Is Strange: Double Exposure Wins GDC Social Impact Award, But Everyone Got Laid Off
@PuppetMaster Jeanne d'Arc is Good, I played and finished it on psp way back then π
In the case of this game though, I heard even fans hate this game story so it's kind of the devs fault the game isn't selling.
In the case of gow ragnarok and spider-man 2 I think it's the power of the first game that make the sequel sells a lot. I platinum ps4 gow 1 while I only played maybe 1-2 hours of gow ragnarok before getting bored, that's why although I platinum ps4 spider-man 1, I waited for a let's play of the game before buying it, and man I'm glad I didn't bought spider-man 2. Metaphor and baldur gate 3 gameplay and story is good so it sells.
Ps. It really nice of sony to honor my purchase of the game (jeanne d'arc) and make it available free on my ps5 account. I played the game on umd on psp, and bought it again digitally on psvita π
@naruball Tearaway psvita is great, tearaway on ps4 is good but lost most of it charm. Still worth playing it on ps4 though if you don't have psvita imo.
Re: God of War Fans Gutted with Free 20th Anniversary Goodies
There's no way sony california remaster god of war greek saga, it will be full of censored gaming that for sure lol.
Re: Life Is Strange: Double Exposure Wins GDC Social Impact Award, But Everyone Got Laid Off
The game isn't good then if it make the developers jobless, make good product and get rewarded, and vice versa.
Re: Poll: Are You Playing Assassin's Creed Shadows?
Nope, but I have fun watching the youtube video about the game. For example, I just found out the woman that yasuke can romance in the game is famous in japan as a very loyal wife that choose to be killed with his husband when they lose the war, of course ubisoft make that woman (lady oichi) make out with yasuke π
At this point I think ubisoft really hate japan and that the game story is just some fantasy of the writer lol.
Re: Video Game Industry Caught in a 'Vicious Circle of Death and Rebirth', Says Helldivers Boss
Gaming is too expensive in the west to make, so publishers didn't want to take risk that can bankrupt them. I think In the end AAA games will be just too expensive to be made in usa and only be made in other country, with the exception like fortnite, cod, and gta, the rest is indie gaming and AA gaming (like robocop rogue city or Split fiction).
Re: Iconic Game Maker Says Japanese Devs Should Stop Trying to Appeal to Westerners
Yup, beside looks at western developers now, all the firing and a mess of underwhelming games, it's foolish for japanese (or any country) developers to appeal to western. Just let japanese games be japanese.
Re: A New PlayStation Studio Just Got Confirmed on a Podcast
After concord I didn't care about any new sony studio, just put out your games and let gamers decide whether your games/studio is worth it or not.
Re: Saints Row Team Thrown Under the Bus: 'They Didn't Know What They Were Building'
Removed; user is banned
Re: Ubisoft Will Reportedly Fight for Assassin's Creed Shadows, Anti-Harassment Plan in Place
So they can censor youtubers that gave negative coverage of their game? I have never see anyone from ubisoft harassed on twitter because of this game, ubisoft just want to censor any negative news about this game, they gave youtubers a strike rather than cease & desist so youtubers didn't dare gave the game negative impression. Yeah, I'm done supporting ubisoft.
Re: Horror Adventure Classic I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream Is Coming to PS5, PS4 This Month
I watched the let's play of this game a couple of years ago, the story is horrifying but really good. The gameplay is typical adventure games at that time though, it's a bit confusing.