Ok, this has to be one of the of the most stupid things i have ever seen. EVERYTHING that has a fan has a margin of coil noise, its basic aerodynamics, yes some are louder than others, but in this instance its a non issue. Consider for a second that ALL consoles made within the last 15 years have had this noise, however, this generation there has been a major focus on advanced cooling systems. The noise has always been there, its nothing new at all, its just now the cooling solution is so quiet you can actually hear the coil whine. If anything its a testament to how well the cooling works. Honestly, people will be complaining its not made of solid gold next.
You do realize these are the same companies that are/have released titles such as Resident Evil 3 and The last of us Part II during a global pandemic right? Where was the morality then?
@3Above Im running a 2700X, a second gen Zen processor. I dont have any issue running a PS3 emulator. Given the PS5 is an 8 core-16 thread third gen Zen soc, it should be able to handle it just fine with room to spare, especially if the emulator is optimized by the original architects.
Im 100% certain they can do it, hell even PSNow runs PS3 games on sonys own in house emulator. Its just a case of weather they believe it to be worth the hassle
@ED_209 I understand why they postponed, even if they didn't want too, some Social Justice Warrior would just call them heartless if they didn't so they didn't have a choice.
But it does raise the question of will there ever be a good time? Postponed due to Corona, Postponed due to Civil Unrest, next month it will be something else. There will always be something going on in the world, at this rate the PS5 will fall into Myth and Legend :S
@3Above Very true. That stupid cell processor in the PS3 is still coming back to bite us in the proverbial. I know that PS3 emulation is avilable on PC, and for the most part it works ok, but given the developers didnt have access to the source code, its quite impressive.
As sony have the original source/micro code, it would be relativly easy for them to make an emulator. The only down side is your not using variable frequency to match the PS3, quite the opposite, you would be using all of those 16 cores to brute force a software solution, kinda like trying to swat a fly with a bulldozer heh.
On thinking about it, it would actually take more processing power to make PS3 games run on a PS5 than PS4 Pro games, which is crazy now i think about it lol. The PS4 wouldnt have had the raw grunt to do somthing like that, which is probably why we never got back compat with it.
So yeah, its possible, realativly easy with the new chipset, but i guess its a case of wether they think its cost effective.
@Stocksy Yeah true. I Think that given this gen has been sony's best yet, it would be foolish not to incorporate some kind of back compat. I mean, they already have the audience/fan base, this is how you keep it i guess.
@3Above Im 99% sure that Mark Cerny has confirmed this. The PS5 will be back compatible with PS4 games. Its not a hardware solution per sey, that just ups the cost of the machine.
Im pretty sure he said that the way the variable frequency chip works, it can essentially "upscale" or "downscale" its performance depending on what it needs to do. So, in this case lowering its own specs to match that of a PS4. I guess its technically both hardware and software back compat, but without the need for extra hardware.
As for the PS1, 2 and 3, its certainly possible to do it through software, from a marketing standpoint you would be taking away Microsofts only benifit over the PS5. I could see sony doing it for that reason alone. But if im 100% honest, i dont think it will happen, it would be nice if it did, but we have to be realistic here.
@3Above True, but you have to consider this is the PS5. FIVE being the key word here. By that logic i would need to keep 5 consoles under my TV, its getting kinda cramped.
Ok that was a hypothetical, and the reality is games and hardware have to move on, but at least 1 or 2 generations of back compatibility should be considered when designing a console just to ease the transition.
Now dont get me wrong, when designing a console, next gen should always be a priority, back compatibility should NEVER come at the expense of reducing the power of functionality of a new machine, but it SHOULD be taken into account. This is exactly what we are seeing with the PS5. The full extent of backwards compatibility is still unknown, until i see it in black and white on the Playstation Blog i think we all just have to be patient
"Imagine a hypothetical sequel to Horizon Zero Dawn: the SSD could allow for flying mounts, but if Guerrilla Games had to support the PS4 as well, it might have to remove that feature"
Really? C'mon man, a game is a game, changing mechanics and features just to suit a platform is never a good idea. You are effectivly changing the experience from one console to another, but still trying to sell the same game. That would never work in a million years.
I dont even know why this is a topic? Its brand new hardware with brand new features, of course there are going to be games that will be designed for this console only. If that wasnt the case, why would you upgrade?
I love Push Square but this post really is grasping at straws for something to talk about.
Are you annoyed that The Order 1886 wasnt avilable on PS3 when the PS4 launched? Of course not lol. So Stupid lol
@Tharsman Yeah man, its always good to take inspiration from other games, i mean if it works dont fix it right? I loved the AC games, glitches and all, but GoT seems to be copying a little too much for my liking. Playstation has always been the goto system for open world games, especially this generation. I never give a final opinion on a game until i have completed it, so lets just hope it offers something more on top of the AC formula. As long as they build on it rather than copy paste im sure we will all enjoy it
Really? RDR is the inspiration? Ok im going to have to play it fully myself to be able to criticize properly, but c'mon man. It was clearly influenced by Assassins Creed. So much so, if you told me Ubi was suing for copy write, id probably believe you lol.
The only issue i have with it is that its affecting pre-orders for future games. Take AC Valhalla for example, if its due out the end of the year, and the PS5 is allegedly releasing holiday 2020, why on earth would i pre-order the ps4 version? Im planning on buying a PS5, and because we have had no information from sony i have no idea if they are following MS lead with cross gen upgrades. Thats hitting Ubisofts wallet in the short term.
@Flaming_Kaiser If you think the game looks good then buy it day one like you say. No one is stopping you and i genuinely hope you enjoy it. But at the same time dont discredit those who aparently "nitpick". Creative criticism is just as important to a developer as sales (i said developer, not publisher ). Im almost 100% sure it will be better than AC, its a first party title and by that alone says alot. But given that it looks (UI Elements, screen prompt etc) and appears to play very similar to AC, we are mearly saying that there is little innovation here, we have a 100 games like this, we were just hoping for something a little more diverse.
@Steel76 Sadly i agree with you bud. Saw the original trailer and was looking forward to something new. But this game play reveal? Nah, iv got 20+ games like this to play already, think im gonna pass on this one. Sure its a gorgeous looking game no doubt, but im really not seeing any innovation here, its an assassins creed clone set in japan. The only benifit i can see over an AC games is that it probably has less bugs, and i wont have to be tourtured with that Abstergo stuff, apart from that, nothing new here to see
@Fuzzymonkeyfunk Aww man tell me about it, my first was a 32gb Corsair SSD, if memory serves it was a little over £260. It really was a game changer though. If you wanna get nostalgic though, i remember when SDRam went down to £1 per MB, i went out and bought myself a 128mb stick (dual channel wasnt a thing then). By todays standards that would make a 8gb stick a little over £8000. Crazy stuff
@Fuzzymonkeyfunk Im fairly certain they will bud. Im sure PS5 has got there first, and the PC will be playing catch-up for a little while yet. But im certain PCI4 will be able to offer SSD speeds comparable to PS5, and within 12-18 months most likely exceed it. Its not a bad thing, far from it, it will keep the PS5 relevent way longer than i expected. Its possible that it will go even longer still if a pro model is in the works, they could yet up the PC again in the near future
@No_Cartridge That is true, thank you for correcting me. After watching the Unreal dev interview its made that much clearer. Using assets of that size and detail, and having the engine do the "scaling" (if thats an accurate description?) would obviously mean pulling huge data files from the HDD. It makes sense that PCI3 would have trouble with it in terms of bandwith, more so in realtime. Im sure it will run on PCI3 but at a vastly reduced rate, which explains why they decided to demo the hardware on a PS5 and not XBSX. Obviosuly we will be getting PCI4 on pc later in the year so it will be interesting to see similar tech running there too. Im sure MS will do well with PCI3 on XBSX, but the difference in the consoles is going to be night and day.
@Neolit people will always have alternative opinions, even in the face of proof, some people just cant stand being corrected. No one likes to be told they are wrong, myself included, but when the facts speak for themselves, sometimes we have to eat humble pie (iv done that more times that i care to admit). But still, seeing this kind of demonstration from a 3rd party, it really does up the ante for first party titles. This is going to be an amazing console generation
@parvaz1 Thats a fair point bud. Im sure they will try to emulate it on PC, but i see what your saying. Still its nice to see PC and Console fighting for tech dominance, it can only result in a better experience for both audiences
@Neolit We were both just talking about this the other day in the ps5 cost article, remember? Its nice to see a little justification, MS cannont compete at this level. Sure they will have thier own games and strengths, but they will never be able to reach the level of fidelity that this machine can pump out. In fairness this is just a tech demo, but still, its hammering home the point we were making about that SSD being the killer tech needed to stay ahead.
That's not entirely true, AMD have already announced that their next system boards support PCI4 with a stupid amount of lanes. This is fueling the next generation of NVME hard drives that are expect to be the same speed as, and go beyound what the PS5 is shipping with.
Dont get me wrong though, the PC version will be stupid expensive (im talking the cost of a PS5 for a single drive, that doesnt even included the cost of the new motherboards). The fact that sony have managed to cram it into a console, even if its just months before the pc version, is insainly impressive.
Xbox Series X is locked into PCIE3, a technology that is going to be replaced before the year is out (around next gen launch time). Before they ever get off the starting podeom, its going to be outdated tech.
This is exactly why Mike Cerney spent so much time on it in the deep dive, and iv been saying it for months. All that bluster from MS about having a more powerful machine, it counts for nothing when your machine is using half its power decompressing assets.
Sony's foresight in anticipating and including true next gen tech is going to pay off big time, and this demo show exactly why. That ending sequence where she is flying? Not possible on PCIE3. Well, maby you could run it, but it would stutter like crazy.
This is Ubisoft we are talking about, their engine has always been in favor of single core performance. Granted Odyssey was a little better but it was still restricted by single core performance.
As its unlikely that there is a single core PC still being used today, and consoles have suppoerted multicore since the PS3/360 era, its really sad to see this being carried over to next gen.
I have a 2080, and a 1st gen 2700x, i have no issues hitting 60fps at 4k in the majority of games, Odyssey included. Due to the single core limitation i needed a small overclock on the CPU to get it, but its still possible. All other games did not require the overclock. This was also true of FarCry5.
With the XBOXSX having a GPU that is very close to a 2080 in terms of TF, and the CPU being 2nd gen ZEN2 bassed, there is zero excuse for this other than piss poor optimization of the engine.
So i get the option of 1080p 30fps on current gen, or 4k 30fps on next gen, that is no where near enough of a jump to justify a £500 console. The experience will be identical.
And by the way "gaurentee 30fps minimum"? are you kidding me? was there a point during development that sub 30fps was a possibility? Jesus, get it together Ubisoft.
Agreed, i believe sonys console will speak for itself, the proof as they say is in the pudding. Its no longer about which is the more powerful console, but who has the best experience. Cross platform games give the same exprience on the PS4 Pro as they do on the Xbox One X, give or take a minor resolution bump, but they play the same. Its 1st party titles that will decide this one, and sony have got that in spades.
In terms of pricing, im still on the fence on that. While sony did sell the PS3 at considerable loss, they still lost that generation to xbox 360, it was very much a MS dominated time. 360 was much easier to program for, and as such had a bigger library of games initially. By the time PS3 caught up, it was too late, people were already invested in another system. Clearly they pulled that back for current gen with the ps4. And one could argue that it wasnt the most powerfull consoles that won it, but rather the quality of the games, something that MS clearly overlooked this time round.
Im sure MS have realised thier mistake, and will take a great deal of care when producing software/IP for the next generation, which can only be a good thing for people who decided to buy xbox. But ultimately they are still playing catch up in innovation, that sony SSD is really going to hurt them in terms of game quality and experience.
This is pure speculation, but if i had to make a prediction based on all available information as of today, i would say sony will continue to do what they do best, produce high quality games on an affordable, albeit a less powerful machine. While microsoft will do what they do best, provide a service and start edging towards an "alternative" experience rather than trying to beat them outright.
I predict they will make a push to become the dominant digital platform. We have seen them take the first step with the "all digital" xbox one s, they were testing the water. With the changes to xbox gold, and the subscription services they now provide. Its easy to see that they are heading for a different direction rather than direct like for like competition. Coulple that with what microsoft said recently, namley that they dont see sony as competition, would suggest that they are planning to seperate the experience.
As always i could be wrong, but im calling this the Console Cold War
Its true. At least MS are moving in the right direction, getting rid of gold etc, but we are still a long way away from it being anything resembling value.
It certainly appears that its going to go all digital in the future, but i can honestly say i dont think it will ever truly be 100% digital, they would loose too much money. Dont get me wrong, they will try, and in most cases will succeed, but not without pitfalls.
1) Its 100% internet enabled, unless someone is willing to cough up the cash to give every 3rd world country full fiber access, physical discs will always be needed or you loose those sales.
2) By going all digital, you are effectively killing off any competition, retailers wont be able to compete, pre order bonuses from different outlets will be a thing of the past, and technically you would have a Monopoly on the market. Not only is that anti-competitive, im pretty sure its illegal to deliberately create a monopoly (your country may vary).
3) Finally, all those £200/$200+ collectors editions? Gone. No steel book or figurine for you, just a promise that you can always access a game that you have never actually seen or held.
I think the best solution is already being implemented right now, a form of subscription service whilst retaining physical media. But it has to remain affordable and give value to the customer, somthing that its currently lacking.
Take movies for example, the vast majority of people consume thier media online (e.g Netflix, Hulu, Disney+), but there is always a market for personal copies, a sense of ownership, hence Bluray Discs.
If the games industry went all digital, and the sole marketplace for buying games was through the console manufacturer (PSStore, MSStore), that would be like taking away all blurays, and saying the only place you can get a movie is from netflix. You would be at the mercy of netflix and have no option but to pay what thier asking.
I could be wrong, the future is always full of suprises, i just sinceerly doubt people would accept such a system, if it was even legal in the first place
You make a great point about the gamepass/gold live issue. If im being 100% honest, its the one thing i would strongly urge sony to change. Basic network access to play with friends should always be free.
I have seen arguments saying that it costs money to run those servers, but with all due respect its absolute rubbish. Basic network access is incredibly cheap. So cheap infact that on PC i cant think of a single digital platform that charges for this, not a single one. Uplay, Origin, Steam and Epic Games Store to name but a few, all free to play online. Why? because it so cheap you cannot possibly justify adding it as a cost.
You use more bandwidth downloading game patches (which are free no less) than you ever would in a lifetime of online gameplay.
The main issue i have with PS Plus is that i am forced to buy games i dont nessesarly want (you dont get free games each month, think about it, you really are paying for them), on a digital format that i dont use (i buy all my games physical, why would i want digital as a collector?).
So, if i want to play with my friends, i have to pay for all these extras that i dont want or need. It almost feels as though network play is being held for ransom unless you are willing to buy things you dont want.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to call myself a stingy person, but its certainly far from the truth. In my above comment i mentioned that i own a little over 110 physical games, for the ps4 alone, as well as both a PS4 and a PS4 Pro. But not once, since the console has released have i paid for PS Plus, and nor will i. Its the only way i can protest it.
If sony want a re-occuring monthly subscription service, thats fine, but it should be catered to those who use the platform in that way, and not penalize every single customer.
RDR2 is the perfect example of this, on rockstar PC games app, its 100% free to play online, but if you bought it on PS4, the entire online experience is locked behind a monthly paywall. I paid £60 for a pre-order on that game, only to find that half the content was going to be locked behind a subscription. Rockstar use thier own servers, it litrilly costs sony nothing to allow passthough traffic, yet it still remains a chargable service.
Game streaming (aka PS Now) is completly different, it uses a stupid amount of bandwith and is costly in terms of processing power, that i fully understand. But basic online gameplay should always be free.
No worries bud, im all for being put straight when sony does the big reveal, for all i know the cooling system could be coal powered :S
Cost is always a factor when designing a system, even more so for mass production, there has to be a concession somewhere. For xbox, clearly they have traded size, cooling and heat production for performance, hence the need for the elaborate cooling system. Sony on the other hand, will certainly not need such powerfull cooling purely on the basis of how the soc functions. Its very nature, lower power = lower thermals, hence a less elaborate cooling system is needed.
Its the ultimate question though isnt it? How cheaply can you make an effective cooling system for a variable frequency chip, and is it enough to offset the price of that (i suspect expensive) SSD. Will it be enough to remain competitive? Or are they going to need to take that financial hit just to get the machines out there.
Xbox has its cards on the table, heres our chip, heres how it runs, heres how its cooled. Sony, either call or fold, the clocks ticking
I love a good discussion as much as the next person but you are commenting on speculation, not fact. We know what the SSD is, and its capability, that information was provided to us, as such it is open for in depth analysis. The result of which is, its vastly superior to anything else on the market right now, including pc's, and shows clearly what the potential is for the system. Ultimately it is upto developers to make use of said tech. If you wanted to cut down a tree and all you had was a pocket knife, you would be limited by time and energy constraints, sony havent just handed you a chainsaw for the job, they have give you a bulldozer.
What we don't have is solid information on the cooling system, Sony has yet to reveal the full information. I agree that if the cooling system is subpar then they very well may have an issue, but if we are speculating here, i sincerely doubt that it inst effective. Again it was addressed in the deep dive that the current cooling system is noisy, and it was a main concern going forward. You cannot possibly say that it isnt a "robust cooling system" without even knowing how it works, or indeed some performance stats. Speculation is one thing, but dont try to discredit something we know very little about. Xbox is different, they literally took the case off and showed us the components, reserve judgment until sony do the same thing
Variable cpu frequencies are considered standard in the pc world, boost clocks and over/under volts have been tried tested and almost perfected in recent years. Take at look at AMD's precision overdrive for example, it turns ryzen users into pro overclockers without event having to touch a single setting. It really isnt surprising that this is included in the PS5 being a Ryzen based system. If sony and amd have found a way to include this in the PS5 APU and managed to cool it effectivly, then i would say that gives developers ever more freedom. Why have a CPU running at max speed when you only want 60% of it for the scene you are rendering? Its a waste of energy and cpu cycles.
It makes perfect sense that microsoft have over engineered thier cooling system, its running at max frequency 100% of the time. The real question is why, if the new xbox is also ryzen based, didnt microsoft opt for ajustable frequencies like sony? Again my point stands, its lack of foresight and innovation in the architecture.
I have no doubt that you will disagree with me, and of course thats your right, but please don't present speculation as fact, and the fact is, a variable frequency system doesn't require NASA grade engineers to cool it
But bringing the discussion back to the core, iv never know Microsoft to sell anything at a loss, maby at cost to be competitive, but never at a loss. Sony on the otherhand have been known to do it, the PS3 was a great example, they lost so much money on those machines selling them at less that cost, but they made it all back and more in software/games.
Given the sheer amount of people who own a ps4, and a reasonable sized game library, id say sony already has a headstart via loyalty alone. My personal collection is topping a little over 110 physical games. It would be a tough to ask anyone in a similar situation to abandon back comparability and swap from sony to microsoft, thats a really hard sell.
Hangist, as a software developer you should know full well that what @Neolit is saying is 100% accurate. We are not talking about SATA III or NVMe speeds here, we are talking PCIE 4.0 and beyond, something that even the PC scene is just seeing now.
As a developer you obviously know In terms of gaming, when you stream assets from storage to memory 99% of the time it needs to be decompressed first, which in turn takes up valuable CPU cycles. At these SSD speeds, no decompression will technically be needed, although in the future it may become a factor, it all depends on where the industry goes. We are talking open worlds that are not limited by texture size, asset size and more importantly available memory. Assuming of course that LOD is implemented correctly, the only limit i can see in this case would be hard drive space to store said assets. To be able to stream and drop assets in realtime, the possibilities are almost endless.
Infact i would argue that while on paper the xbsx may be the more powerful machine in terms of raw performance, the ps5 will be capable of producing visuals far surpassing that of the xbox, all thanks to that little SSD. What good is a slightly faster CPU when half of its performance is taken up by decompressing and moving assets around?
Raw performance alone doesnt make a console good, if it did then the one x would have outsold both the PS4 Pro and the Swich. As it stands, its the complete opposit, both sony and nintendo are thrashing microsoft at the moment. Why? Because they are making 100% use of what they have avilable to them. Im not trying to bash MS, but there does seem to be a serious lack of imagination in thier upcoming design.
Sadly they have made this fatal mistake yet again, raw performance over innovation. Yes MS may have an SSD as well, but it is 100% proprietary and that is their second mistake that will cost them dearly. Any system that has used this type of external proprietary storage system in the past has done very poorly.(memory stick duo anyone?).
While the PS5 does have a proprietary internal SSD (and and insainly fast one at that) you at lease have the option to expand with custom storage from 3rd parties when PCI 4 is more widely available. You will have no such option with xbsx, its microsofts way or the highway, and that will annoy alot of people in the long term.
As for crossgen games, yes the loading times will be faster, and texture pop in will be improved, but it really isnt a farcry to patch a game to use uncompressed assets. Ofcourse, this does vary from title to title but in general its not the hardest thing to do.
As a developer im sure you know most of this anyway, i just think that the importance and ingenuity of that SSD is seriously overlooked at times. There is a reason why Mark Cerney spent so much time on it in the deep dive
Comments 32
Re: PS5 Coil Whine Complaints Intensify as System Launches in Europe
Ok, this has to be one of the of the most stupid things i have ever seen. EVERYTHING that has a fan has a margin of coil noise, its basic aerodynamics, yes some are louder than others, but in this instance its a non issue. Consider for a second that ALL consoles made within the last 15 years have had this noise, however, this generation there has been a major focus on advanced cooling systems. The noise has always been there, its nothing new at all, its just now the cooling solution is so quiet you can actually hear the coil whine. If anything its a testament to how well the cooling works. Honestly, people will be complaining its not made of solid gold next.
Re: Bugsnax
This is why i dont do drugs, its to avoid experiences like this....
Re: Full Length Bugsnax Song to Debut on Summer Game Fest's Next Developer Showcase
BUGSNAX? See now this is why i dont do drugs, its to avoid experiences like this....
Re: Cyberpunk 2077 Night City Wire Livestream Postponed to 25th June
You do realize these are the same companies that are/have released titles such as Resident Evil 3 and The last of us Part II during a global pandemic right? Where was the morality then?
Just Sayin..
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@3Above Yeah man, wouldnt that be somthing? We can always hope
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@3Above Im running a 2700X, a second gen Zen processor. I dont have any issue running a PS3 emulator. Given the PS5 is an 8 core-16 thread third gen Zen soc, it should be able to handle it just fine with room to spare, especially if the emulator is optimized by the original architects.
Im 100% certain they can do it, hell even PSNow runs PS3 games on sonys own in house emulator. Its just a case of weather they believe it to be worth the hassle
Re: PS5 Reveal Event Scheduled for Thursday Has Been Postponed
@ED_209 I understand why they postponed, even if they didn't want too, some Social Justice Warrior would just call them heartless if they didn't so they didn't have a choice.
But it does raise the question of will there ever be a good time? Postponed due to Corona, Postponed due to Civil Unrest, next month it will be something else. There will always be something going on in the world, at this rate the PS5 will fall into Myth and Legend :S
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@3Above Very true. That stupid cell processor in the PS3 is still coming back to bite us in the proverbial. I know that PS3 emulation is avilable on PC, and for the most part it works ok, but given the developers didnt have access to the source code, its quite impressive.
As sony have the original source/micro code, it would be relativly easy for them to make an emulator. The only down side is your not using variable frequency to match the PS3, quite the opposite, you would be using all of those 16 cores to brute force a software solution, kinda like trying to swat a fly with a bulldozer heh.
On thinking about it, it would actually take more processing power to make PS3 games run on a PS5 than PS4 Pro games, which is crazy now i think about it lol. The PS4 wouldnt have had the raw grunt to do somthing like that, which is probably why we never got back compat with it.
So yeah, its possible, realativly easy with the new chipset, but i guess its a case of wether they think its cost effective.
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@Stocksy Yeah true. I Think that given this gen has been sony's best yet, it would be foolish not to incorporate some kind of back compat. I mean, they already have the audience/fan base, this is how you keep it i guess.
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@3Above Im 99% sure that Mark Cerny has confirmed this. The PS5 will be back compatible with PS4 games. Its not a hardware solution per sey, that just ups the cost of the machine.
Im pretty sure he said that the way the variable frequency chip works, it can essentially "upscale" or "downscale" its performance depending on what it needs to do. So, in this case lowering its own specs to match that of a PS4. I guess its technically both hardware and software back compat, but without the need for extra hardware.
As for the PS1, 2 and 3, its certainly possible to do it through software, from a marketing standpoint you would be taking away Microsofts only benifit over the PS5. I could see sony doing it for that reason alone. But if im 100% honest, i dont think it will happen, it would be nice if it did, but we have to be realistic here.
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
@3Above True, but you have to consider this is the PS5. FIVE being the key word here. By that logic i would need to keep 5 consoles under my TV, its getting kinda cramped.
Ok that was a hypothetical, and the reality is games and hardware have to move on, but at least 1 or 2 generations of back compatibility should be considered when designing a console just to ease the transition.
Now dont get me wrong, when designing a console, next gen should always be a priority, back compatibility should NEVER come at the expense of reducing the power of functionality of a new machine, but it SHOULD be taken into account. This is exactly what we are seeing with the PS5. The full extent of backwards compatibility is still unknown, until i see it in black and white on the Playstation Blog i think we all just have to be patient
Re: Talking Point: Do You Agree with PS5's Approach to Generations?
"Imagine a hypothetical sequel to Horizon Zero Dawn: the SSD could allow for flying mounts, but if Guerrilla Games had to support the PS4 as well, it might have to remove that feature"
Really? C'mon man, a game is a game, changing mechanics and features just to suit a platform is never a good idea. You are effectivly changing the experience from one console to another, but still trying to sell the same game. That would never work in a million years.
I dont even know why this is a topic? Its brand new hardware with brand new features, of course there are going to be games that will be designed for this console only. If that wasnt the case, why would you upgrade?
I love Push Square but this post really is grasping at straws for something to talk about.
Are you annoyed that The Order 1886 wasnt avilable on PS3 when the PS4 launched? Of course not lol. So Stupid lol
Re: Red Dead Redemption the 'Number One Inspiration' for Ghost of Tsushima, Says Dev
@Tharsman Yeah man, its always good to take inspiration from other games, i mean if it works dont fix it right? I loved the AC games, glitches and all, but GoT seems to be copying a little too much for my liking. Playstation has always been the goto system for open world games, especially this generation. I never give a final opinion on a game until i have completed it, so lets just hope it offers something more on top of the AC formula. As long as they build on it rather than copy paste im sure we will all enjoy it
Re: Red Dead Redemption the 'Number One Inspiration' for Ghost of Tsushima, Says Dev
Really? RDR is the inspiration? Ok im going to have to play it fully myself to be able to criticize properly, but c'mon man. It was clearly influenced by Assassins Creed. So much so, if you told me Ubi was suing for copy write, id probably believe you lol.
Re: Poll: Are You Happy with the Way Sony Is Handling the PS5 Reveal?
The only issue i have with it is that its affecting pre-orders for future games. Take AC Valhalla for example, if its due out the end of the year, and the PS5 is allegedly releasing holiday 2020, why on earth would i pre-order the ps4 version? Im planning on buying a PS5, and because we have had no information from sony i have no idea if they are following MS lead with cross gen upgrades. Thats hitting Ubisofts wallet in the short term.
Re: PlayStation Now More Than Doubles Its Subscriber Count in a Year
PSNow is great if you dont mind the lag, video compression artifacts and want to pay a second time for PS3 games you already own.
It may seem petty but playing PSNow is like playing a PS4 game from inside a burlap sack.
Re: Preview: Ghost of Tsushima PS4 Gameplay Blowout Reveals Combat, Exploration, Customisation, and More
@Flaming_Kaiser If you think the game looks good then buy it day one like you say. No one is stopping you and i genuinely hope you enjoy it. But at the same time dont discredit those who aparently "nitpick". Creative criticism is just as important to a developer as sales (i said developer, not publisher ). Im almost 100% sure it will be better than AC, its a first party title and by that alone says alot. But given that it looks (UI Elements, screen prompt etc) and appears to play very similar to AC, we are mearly saying that there is little innovation here, we have a 100 games like this, we were just hoping for something a little more diverse.
Re: Preview: Ghost of Tsushima PS4 Gameplay Blowout Reveals Combat, Exploration, Customisation, and More
@Steel76 Sadly i agree with you bud. Saw the original trailer and was looking forward to something new. But this game play reveal? Nah, iv got 20+ games like this to play already, think im gonna pass on this one. Sure its a gorgeous looking game no doubt, but im really not seeing any innovation here, its an assassins creed clone set in japan. The only benifit i can see over an AC games is that it probably has less bugs, and i wont have to be tourtured with that Abstergo stuff, apart from that, nothing new here to see
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@Fuzzymonkeyfunk Aww man tell me about it, my first was a 32gb Corsair SSD, if memory serves it was a little over £260. It really was a game changer though. If you wanna get nostalgic though, i remember when SDRam went down to £1 per MB, i went out and bought myself a 128mb stick (dual channel wasnt a thing then). By todays standards that would make a 8gb stick a little over £8000. Crazy stuff
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@Fuzzymonkeyfunk Im fairly certain they will bud. Im sure PS5 has got there first, and the PC will be playing catch-up for a little while yet. But im certain PCI4 will be able to offer SSD speeds comparable to PS5, and within 12-18 months most likely exceed it. Its not a bad thing, far from it, it will keep the PS5 relevent way longer than i expected. Its possible that it will go even longer still if a pro model is in the works, they could yet up the PC again in the near future
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@No_Cartridge That is true, thank you for correcting me. After watching the Unreal dev interview its made that much clearer. Using assets of that size and detail, and having the engine do the "scaling" (if thats an accurate description?) would obviously mean pulling huge data files from the HDD. It makes sense that PCI3 would have trouble with it in terms of bandwith, more so in realtime. Im sure it will run on PCI3 but at a vastly reduced rate, which explains why they decided to demo the hardware on a PS5 and not XBSX. Obviosuly we will be getting PCI4 on pc later in the year so it will be interesting to see similar tech running there too. Im sure MS will do well with PCI3 on XBSX, but the difference in the consoles is going to be night and day.
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@Neolit people will always have alternative opinions, even in the face of proof, some people just cant stand being corrected. No one likes to be told they are wrong, myself included, but when the facts speak for themselves, sometimes we have to eat humble pie (iv done that more times that i care to admit). But still, seeing this kind of demonstration from a 3rd party, it really does up the ante for first party titles. This is going to be an amazing console generation
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@parvaz1 Thats a fair point bud. Im sure they will try to emulate it on PC, but i see what your saying. Still its nice to see PC and Console fighting for tech dominance, it can only result in a better experience for both audiences
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@Neolit We were both just talking about this the other day in the ps5 cost article, remember? Its nice to see a little justification, MS cannont compete at this level. Sure they will have thier own games and strengths, but they will never be able to reach the level of fidelity that this machine can pump out. In fairness this is just a tech demo, but still, its hammering home the point we were making about that SSD being the killer tech needed to stay ahead.
Re: PS5 Will Drive the Future of PC, Sony's System Is Remarkably Balanced
@parvaz1
That's not entirely true, AMD have already announced that their next system boards support PCI4 with a stupid amount of lanes. This is fueling the next generation of NVME hard drives that are expect to be the same speed as, and go beyound what the PS5 is shipping with.
Dont get me wrong though, the PC version will be stupid expensive (im talking the cost of a PS5 for a single drive, that doesnt even included the cost of the new motherboards). The fact that sony have managed to cram it into a console, even if its just months before the pc version, is insainly impressive.
Xbox Series X is locked into PCIE3, a technology that is going to be replaced before the year is out (around next gen launch time). Before they ever get off the starting podeom, its going to be outdated tech.
This is exactly why Mike Cerney spent so much time on it in the deep dive, and iv been saying it for months. All that bluster from MS about having a more powerful machine, it counts for nothing when your machine is using half its power decompressing assets.
Sony's foresight in anticipating and including true next gen tech is going to pay off big time, and this demo show exactly why. That ending sequence where she is flying? Not possible on PCIE3. Well, maby you could run it, but it would stutter like crazy.
Re: Don't Expect Assassin's Creed Valhalla to Run at 60 Frames-Per-Second on PS5
This is Ubisoft we are talking about, their engine has always been in favor of single core performance. Granted Odyssey was a little better but it was still restricted by single core performance.
As its unlikely that there is a single core PC still being used today, and consoles have suppoerted multicore since the PS3/360 era, its really sad to see this being carried over to next gen.
I have a 2080, and a 1st gen 2700x, i have no issues hitting 60fps at 4k in the majority of games, Odyssey included. Due to the single core limitation i needed a small overclock on the CPU to get it, but its still possible. All other games did not require the overclock. This was also true of FarCry5.
With the XBOXSX having a GPU that is very close to a 2080 in terms of TF, and the CPU being 2nd gen ZEN2 bassed, there is zero excuse for this other than piss poor optimization of the engine.
So i get the option of 1080p 30fps on current gen, or 4k 30fps on next gen, that is no where near enough of a jump to justify a £500 console. The experience will be identical.
And by the way "gaurentee 30fps minimum"? are you kidding me? was there a point during development that sub 30fps was a possibility? Jesus, get it together Ubisoft.
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@Grindagger
Agreed, i believe sonys console will speak for itself, the proof as they say is in the pudding. Its no longer about which is the more powerful console, but who has the best experience. Cross platform games give the same exprience on the PS4 Pro as they do on the Xbox One X, give or take a minor resolution bump, but they play the same. Its 1st party titles that will decide this one, and sony have got that in spades.
In terms of pricing, im still on the fence on that. While sony did sell the PS3 at considerable loss, they still lost that generation to xbox 360, it was very much a MS dominated time. 360 was much easier to program for, and as such had a bigger library of games initially. By the time PS3 caught up, it was too late, people were already invested in another system. Clearly they pulled that back for current gen with the ps4. And one could argue that it wasnt the most powerfull consoles that won it, but rather the quality of the games, something that MS clearly overlooked this time round.
Im sure MS have realised thier mistake, and will take a great deal of care when producing software/IP for the next generation, which can only be a good thing for people who decided to buy xbox. But ultimately they are still playing catch up in innovation, that sony SSD is really going to hurt them in terms of game quality and experience.
This is pure speculation, but if i had to make a prediction based on all available information as of today, i would say sony will continue to do what they do best, produce high quality games on an affordable, albeit a less powerful machine. While microsoft will do what they do best, provide a service and start edging towards an "alternative" experience rather than trying to beat them outright.
I predict they will make a push to become the dominant digital platform. We have seen them take the first step with the "all digital" xbox one s, they were testing the water. With the changes to xbox gold, and the subscription services they now provide. Its easy to see that they are heading for a different direction rather than direct like for like competition. Coulple that with what microsoft said recently, namley that they dont see sony as competition, would suggest that they are planning to seperate the experience.
As always i could be wrong, but im calling this the Console Cold War
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@TheBuzz @Hengist
Its true. At least MS are moving in the right direction, getting rid of gold etc, but we are still a long way away from it being anything resembling value.
It certainly appears that its going to go all digital in the future, but i can honestly say i dont think it will ever truly be 100% digital, they would loose too much money. Dont get me wrong, they will try, and in most cases will succeed, but not without pitfalls.
1) Its 100% internet enabled, unless someone is willing to cough up the cash to give every 3rd world country full fiber access, physical discs will always be needed or you loose those sales.
2) By going all digital, you are effectively killing off any competition, retailers wont be able to compete, pre order bonuses from different outlets will be a thing of the past, and technically you would have a Monopoly on the market. Not only is that anti-competitive, im pretty sure its illegal to deliberately create a monopoly (your country may vary).
3) Finally, all those £200/$200+ collectors editions? Gone. No steel book or figurine for you, just a promise that you can always access a game that you have never actually seen or held.
I think the best solution is already being implemented right now, a form of subscription service whilst retaining physical media. But it has to remain affordable and give value to the customer, somthing that its currently lacking.
Take movies for example, the vast majority of people consume thier media online (e.g Netflix, Hulu, Disney+), but there is always a market for personal copies, a sense of ownership, hence Bluray Discs.
If the games industry went all digital, and the sole marketplace for buying games was through the console manufacturer (PSStore, MSStore), that would be like taking away all blurays, and saying the only place you can get a movie is from netflix. You would be at the mercy of netflix and have no option but to pay what thier asking.
I could be wrong, the future is always full of suprises, i just sinceerly doubt people would accept such a system, if it was even legal in the first place
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@TheBuzz
You make a great point about the gamepass/gold live issue. If im being 100% honest, its the one thing i would strongly urge sony to change. Basic network access to play with friends should always be free.
I have seen arguments saying that it costs money to run those servers, but with all due respect its absolute rubbish. Basic network access is incredibly cheap. So cheap infact that on PC i cant think of a single digital platform that charges for this, not a single one. Uplay, Origin, Steam and Epic Games Store to name but a few, all free to play online. Why? because it so cheap you cannot possibly justify adding it as a cost.
You use more bandwidth downloading game patches (which are free no less) than you ever would in a lifetime of online gameplay.
The main issue i have with PS Plus is that i am forced to buy games i dont nessesarly want (you dont get free games each month, think about it, you really are paying for them), on a digital format that i dont use (i buy all my games physical, why would i want digital as a collector?).
So, if i want to play with my friends, i have to pay for all these extras that i dont want or need. It almost feels as though network play is being held for ransom unless you are willing to buy things you dont want.
It would be the easiest thing in the world to call myself a stingy person, but its certainly far from the truth. In my above comment i mentioned that i own a little over 110 physical games, for the ps4 alone, as well as both a PS4 and a PS4 Pro. But not once, since the console has released have i paid for PS Plus, and nor will i. Its the only way i can protest it.
If sony want a re-occuring monthly subscription service, thats fine, but it should be catered to those who use the platform in that way, and not penalize every single customer.
RDR2 is the perfect example of this, on rockstar PC games app, its 100% free to play online, but if you bought it on PS4, the entire online experience is locked behind a monthly paywall. I paid £60 for a pre-order on that game, only to find that half the content was going to be locked behind a subscription. Rockstar use thier own servers, it litrilly costs sony nothing to allow passthough traffic, yet it still remains a chargable service.
Game streaming (aka PS Now) is completly different, it uses a stupid amount of bandwith and is costly in terms of processing power, that i fully understand. But basic online gameplay should always be free.
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@Hengist
No worries bud, im all for being put straight when sony does the big reveal, for all i know the cooling system could be coal powered :S
Cost is always a factor when designing a system, even more so for mass production, there has to be a concession somewhere. For xbox, clearly they have traded size, cooling and heat production for performance, hence the need for the elaborate cooling system. Sony on the other hand, will certainly not need such powerfull cooling purely on the basis of how the soc functions. Its very nature, lower power = lower thermals, hence a less elaborate cooling system is needed.
Its the ultimate question though isnt it? How cheaply can you make an effective cooling system for a variable frequency chip, and is it enough to offset the price of that (i suspect expensive) SSD. Will it be enough to remain competitive? Or are they going to need to take that financial hit just to get the machines out there.
Xbox has its cards on the table, heres our chip, heres how it runs, heres how its cooled. Sony, either call or fold, the clocks ticking
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@Hengist
I love a good discussion as much as the next person but you are commenting on speculation, not fact. We know what the SSD is, and its capability, that information was provided to us, as such it is open for in depth analysis. The result of which is, its vastly superior to anything else on the market right now, including pc's, and shows clearly what the potential is for the system. Ultimately it is upto developers to make use of said tech. If you wanted to cut down a tree and all you had was a pocket knife, you would be limited by time and energy constraints, sony havent just handed you a chainsaw for the job, they have give you a bulldozer.
What we don't have is solid information on the cooling system, Sony has yet to reveal the full information. I agree that if the cooling system is subpar then they very well may have an issue, but if we are speculating here, i sincerely doubt that it inst effective. Again it was addressed in the deep dive that the current cooling system is noisy, and it was a main concern going forward. You cannot possibly say that it isnt a "robust cooling system" without even knowing how it works, or indeed some performance stats. Speculation is one thing, but dont try to discredit something we know very little about. Xbox is different, they literally took the case off and showed us the components, reserve judgment until sony do the same thing
Variable cpu frequencies are considered standard in the pc world, boost clocks and over/under volts have been tried tested and almost perfected in recent years. Take at look at AMD's precision overdrive for example, it turns ryzen users into pro overclockers without event having to touch a single setting. It really isnt surprising that this is included in the PS5 being a Ryzen based system. If sony and amd have found a way to include this in the PS5 APU and managed to cool it effectivly, then i would say that gives developers ever more freedom. Why have a CPU running at max speed when you only want 60% of it for the scene you are rendering? Its a waste of energy and cpu cycles.
It makes perfect sense that microsoft have over engineered thier cooling system, its running at max frequency 100% of the time. The real question is why, if the new xbox is also ryzen based, didnt microsoft opt for ajustable frequencies like sony? Again my point stands, its lack of foresight and innovation in the architecture.
I have no doubt that you will disagree with me, and of course thats your right, but please don't present speculation as fact, and the fact is, a variable frequency system doesn't require NASA grade engineers to cool it
But bringing the discussion back to the core, iv never know Microsoft to sell anything at a loss, maby at cost to be competitive, but never at a loss. Sony on the otherhand have been known to do it, the PS3 was a great example, they lost so much money on those machines selling them at less that cost, but they made it all back and more in software/games.
Given the sheer amount of people who own a ps4, and a reasonable sized game library, id say sony already has a headstart via loyalty alone. My personal collection is topping a little over 110 physical games. It would be a tough to ask anyone in a similar situation to abandon back comparability and swap from sony to microsoft, thats a really hard sell.
Re: PS5's Price Could Be Undercut by Xbox Series X, Analysts Suggest
@Mince @Hengist @Neolit
Hangist, as a software developer you should know full well that what @Neolit is saying is 100% accurate. We are not talking about SATA III or NVMe speeds here, we are talking PCIE 4.0 and beyond, something that even the PC scene is just seeing now.
As a developer you obviously know In terms of gaming, when you stream assets from storage to memory 99% of the time it needs to be decompressed first, which in turn takes up valuable CPU cycles. At these SSD speeds, no decompression will technically be needed, although in the future it may become a factor, it all depends on where the industry goes. We are talking open worlds that are not limited by texture size, asset size and more importantly available memory. Assuming of course that LOD is implemented correctly, the only limit i can see in this case would be hard drive space to store said assets. To be able to stream and drop assets in realtime, the possibilities are almost endless.
Infact i would argue that while on paper the xbsx may be the more powerful machine in terms of raw performance, the ps5 will be capable of producing visuals far surpassing that of the xbox, all thanks to that little SSD. What good is a slightly faster CPU when half of its performance is taken up by decompressing and moving assets around?
Raw performance alone doesnt make a console good, if it did then the one x would have outsold both the PS4 Pro and the Swich. As it stands, its the complete opposit, both sony and nintendo are thrashing microsoft at the moment. Why? Because they are making 100% use of what they have avilable to them. Im not trying to bash MS, but there does seem to be a serious lack of imagination in thier upcoming design.
Sadly they have made this fatal mistake yet again, raw performance over innovation. Yes MS may have an SSD as well, but it is 100% proprietary and that is their second mistake that will cost them dearly. Any system that has used this type of external proprietary storage system in the past has done very poorly.(memory stick duo anyone?).
While the PS5 does have a proprietary internal SSD (and and insainly fast one at that) you at lease have the option to expand with custom storage from 3rd parties when PCI 4 is more widely available. You will have no such option with xbsx, its microsofts way or the highway, and that will annoy alot of people in the long term.
As for crossgen games, yes the loading times will be faster, and texture pop in will be improved, but it really isnt a farcry to patch a game to use uncompressed assets. Ofcourse, this does vary from title to title but in general its not the hardest thing to do.
As a developer im sure you know most of this anyway, i just think that the importance and ingenuity of that SSD is seriously overlooked at times. There is a reason why Mark Cerney spent so much time on it in the deep dive