So, I've gone back to Danganronpa V3. Played for several hours, from early second case to right before the class trial.
The victim this time was surprising. I was sure it was going to end up being Kaito. I guess that would have been too telegraphed, though.
Nothing much seemed to happen in this chapter. You talk to a few people, find a casino, Gonta forces you to interact with insects, and then the magic show happens. DR2's second chapter introduced a ton of intriguing mysteries to the equation, but it feels like nothing is being set-up here (other than the obligatory stage dressing for the chapter ending trial, of course).
With one exception: I'm getting increasingly creeped out by Angie and her ability to influence others with her weird beliefs. I definitely could see her being a murderer in a future chapter.
Also, I've noticed there's almost none of the constant babbling about hope and despair in this one. That felt like one of Danganronpa's trademarks, and I'm sad to see it gone.
Predictions for the trial:
1) The motive is probably going to involve something in one of the motive videos. Unless those are a red herring, which is always possible.
2) Considering the rope in the gym, the tennis net cable in Ryoma's lab, the scuffing on the windows, and the missing handcuffs, my first inclination is to think that Ryoma was killed in his room and then somehow transported over the pool to the gym. My guess is that they slid Ryoma over those ropes using the handcuffs.
3) This doesn't explain how the body ended up in the tank where the magic trick took place, though. There was water leaking out of the staircase next to it, so maybe the stairs are hollow and the body was stored there.
4) This implicates mage girl, though, and I don't think she's the culprit. Another guess is that the body was somehow stored in the piranha tank and hidden using a panel of some sort. The item description for it says that only the front is visible, which is suspicious.
5) The problem with all of this, though, is that, if it was committed at nighttime, I don't see how they could have put the body in either of those places. Maybe they cut a whole in their clothes and slid down the rope themselves?
6) Regarding culprits... my first instinct is to suspect Kaito, considering how the game is trying to make me trust him. This would seem a bit too derivative of the first trial for my tastes, though. Other possibilities are Maki (where was she even?) and Kirumi (although, considering she seems willing to take any possible request, perhaps someone killed Ryoma and then instructed Kirumi to take the fall? Perhaps like the second trial of DR2, but played straight this time). I don't think it will be Kokichi, solely because of how much of a source of conflict he's turning out to be.
7) That's what I'm going with: Maki or Kaito contracted with Kirumi to take the fall for their actions. Maybe blackmailing her? Or maybe she's just that committed to her duties.
Watch me be completely off-base with all of this.
I'll play the trial soon. Hoping to finish this up in the next few weeks.
@KratosMD A lot of the moments where they would have started going on about hope and despair, they talk about truth and lies instead. Like in the text right before the trial (right before you're prompted to save). Also, given the apparent ability to lie in this game, it seemed to me like the thematic focus had shifted.
Holy crud! That trial, the execution, and the conclusion of the chapter were a whole lot to process. This is the sort of drama, twistiness, and mystery I've been wanting from this game! So much to talk about.
1) Wow, I was... surprisingly close with my predictions. Not really spot on with any of them, but a few degrees adjacent to the truth. I was really surprised by the identity of the killer in the first trial, so I guess this one was more predictably written?
2) Kokichi and Miu's interactions here are disturbingly similar to DR2 and the way Hiyoko bullied Mikan. Interesting parallel. Also humanizes Miu a bit, I guess, but she's still gross.
3) When did Tenko get such a girl boner for Himiko? I always knew she had a crush on her, but she's taking it to extremes here. I do feel a little bad watching Himiko shoot her down over and over.
4) Is the Prime Minister of Japan Donald Trump? NISA certainly wants us to think so.
5) Kirumi being the de facto Prime Minister is... interesting. Not sure how much I believe it, though. Since Monokuma is able to mess with a person's memories, who is to say that he can't implant false ones?
6) It seems like the Ultimate Hunt is one of the big primary mysteries of this game, alongside whatever this so-called End Wall is.
7) Things got... intense with Kirumi at the end there. Her spiral power was really off the charts!
8) Is this the first time someone has tried running from an execution? It's nice to see a character really rebel against their fate for once.
9) Kirumi's execution is brutal and incredibly bleak while also being perfect to show off her most distinctive character traits. I love it!
10) I love this apparent subplot where Monodam keeps murdering his siblings.
11) I knew Maki was sketchy, especially considering her ostensible ultimate talent, but that reveal that she's apparently the "Ultimate Assassin" was really well done.
12) Kokichi is the best character in the game, by far. He inherits Togami's sense of cruel individualism and Komaeda's penchant for trouble-making and unpredictability and mixes those with an almost childlike malicious glee and a piercing intellect.
While I don't like this trial quite as much as the second trial in DR2, it still blows away anything in DR1. Very fun, dramatic, brutal, and occasionally surprising.
1) Seems like I was right to question Angie's religious fanaticism, considering a cult seems to have quickly formed around her. She sure seems a lot more like an Ultimate Supreme Leader than Kokichi, considering the ease with which she has brainwashed half of the cast. Kokichi is as much a supreme leader as Maki is a child caregiver.
2) Oh man, Maki sure became a more interesting character once she opened up. Her backstory is horrifying, but, despite her cold exterior, she really is sweet on the inside. It's just sad that she has to keep her distance from everyone out of fear of betrayal. I've completed 4 of her FTE's now, and I really just want to give her a hug. The tsundere assassin character isn't terribly original, of course, but Danganronpa has a way of taking tropes and making them interesting.
3) Gotta love all the weird, pointless fanservice this chapter. Only solidifies those Mikan/Miu parallels further.
4) I like how Tenko is actually trying to protect Himiko from this insanity, even if she doesn't know how to reach out to her. I'm liking her more now that they're not pushing the constant man-hating nonsense in my face.
5) And... Angie's dead. Well, I figured she'd either die or kill, so it didn't come as much of a shock. Is this a short chapter, or did it just go by quickly because it was actually interesting and focused as opposed to meandering and dull like most of the last chapter?
I think that's enough for today. Tomorrow I'll move on to the investigation phase again.
@KratosMD I'm only able to proceed at this pace because I'm playing on a Vita. If I had to use my PS4 to play this, I wouldn't have even started the chapter yet. If any more of these games are made, hopefully they get a Vita or Switch version instead of going exclusively to PS4/PC.
But yeah, I've heard this game has a... divisive ending, to put it mildly. Makes me very curious to see what happens. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably gets po-mo near the end, which seems to be an easy enough way to freak out the audience, especially if it starts deconstructing established lore.
Although if it retcons Junko's reign of terror or something, I'm going to cry.
Blazed through the investigation and the first half of the class trial for Ch. 3. I won't post any predictions as I accidentally got spoiled on the identity of the killer.
1. Tenko dying was sad, but not unexpected. The only unexpected aspect was another murder happening during an investigation. Two people ALWAYS die in the third chapter of these games. Also, Tenko was raising mucho death flags right before she started the ritual.
2. I love how scruffy Monokuma was just a stand-in all along.
3. "You can make the impossible possible." Kaito is doing his best Kamina impersonation. I'm convinced he's actually the Ultimate Motivational Speaker at this point.
4. Kokichi bloodies his head, so the first thing that occurs to him is to scare the crud out of Shuichi and co. when they open the door by pretending to be dead. I absolutely love this character!
5. "It's like you get less likable every time you open your mouth." Kiyo telling Miu how it is.
6. Miu is so gross. Why does she randomly sound like she's climaxing half the time you talk to her? No kindness in her heart, either. She has to be the worst character in the franchise to this point... which means she'll probably be one of the Final Students.
7. Oh, and while I'm not a huge fan of the scrum debate mechanic, the track for that minigame is awesome. These games have God-tier soundtracks.
Ah, so Korekiyo is nuts and thinks he's sharing a body with the soul of his dead sister. Reminds me of a certain RE character. Well, anyway, I don't find this sort of villain to be particularly compelling, but I did like Korekiyo's spiel at the end of the trial about the unfairness of the human condition and living with an orientation towards death.
Kiyo's sister betraying him after death during the execution was a nice touch. Even in death, these people can't escape the horror Monokuma visits upon them.
Monodam's desperate suicide was an interesting end to his character arc. He was utterly rejected by the rest of his "family," leading him to his own kind of despair. Of course, knowing Monokuma (or, more exactly, the crazy lady who is always behind him), it wouldn't surprise me if this was the plan all along.
Aha, so Danganronpa is doing that thing where it goes meta and condemns the audience for enjoying the misery and horrifying violence being visited upon its characters.
Loved the raw expression of emotion from Himiko at the end of the trial. It's too bad Tenko went out that way, but she did an absolutely fantastic job of both protecting and instructing the girl she crushed on.
Kaito is dying? Geez, this game is becoming a bit of an emotional rollercoaster.
This chapter was way better than the last one. Hopefully this quality keeps up.
Seriously, how much more demented can Kokichi's expressions get? I also get the distinct impression that he and Monokuma are planning something TERRIBLE for Gonta.
Going into this Virtual World was an obvious mistake. Although it'll make for an intriguing mystery.
This game has some intriguing parallels with previous games. In this case, even though it's clearly different, the "Neo World Program." I wonder what sort of crazy connections this game has to the previous two...
Miu was murdered! Someone decided to give me a present and save me from any more of her horrible sex jokes.
Pure speculation time!
1) Gonta is going to end up being the blackened, but he won't realize it. Kokichi was clearly talking about him when he was scheming with Monokuma earlier.
2) Those memory and consciousness cables are going to wind up having been tampered with, and will tie into the murder somehow.
3) Perhaps the key card Kokichi had allowed him to manipulate the Neo World Program somehow. The appearance of avatars? Perhaps the rules governing this world.
4) I think when "Miu" made the board fall in the water, she was already dead, and her avatar was being controlled by someone else.
5) Kaito's physical condition is going to come up in this trial at some point. Probably to exonerate him of wrong doing, as this is clearly set up to make him seem suspicious.
6) In the program, Shuichi heard Keebo, even though he was on the other side of the map. Which makes me think that there's some connection between the two overworld screens. Perhaps they loop around once you reach "the end of the world" or something?
@KratosMD I have come to enjoy the friendship between Kaito, Maki, and Shuichi (and even the possible romance blooming between Kaito and Maki), which makes me dread the inevitable thing that'll tear them apart all the more.
Ehhhhhh... I guess I can see some parallels between Himiko and Fuyuhiko, but they feel very shallow. Fuyuhiko lost a person who had been with him literally all of his life, almost died trying to save her from her execution, and decided to come back and worth together with everyone, defying years of antisocial conditioning brought on by being born to people in the Yakuza. His story is trumphant.
Himiko acts lazy, ignores the one person who keeps trying to reach out to her until that friend literally dies in her place, and, as a result, decides to... try being less lazy.
I respect that the character is trying to improve herself somewhat, but her story and character aren't nearly as compelling as Fuyuhiko's.
Maki, though? Maki's great. It must take incredible courage to open yourself back up to people after having been beaten down by life like she has (when she talks about how people try to kill her when they discover her talent, you really get a sense for how much hurt and betrayal she must have endured in her life).
So, of my predictions, 1 turned out to be mostly right (Gonta did realize what he was doing: I was thinking more along the lines of him being tricked), 2 was right on the money (although I guess that should have been obvious, given that cables controlling memory and consciousness practically had big glowing "CRUCIAL TRIAL EVIDENCE" signs pointed at them from the beginning), 3 and 4 were completely wrong, and 5... the issue of his health did come up, but not as evidence, and not in the trial, so I consider that a miss. 6 was also pretty accurate.
While we're probably supposed to hate Kokichi after this... I'm not buying his big, edgy monologue at the end there. If he really craved suffering like he claimed, he wouldn't have tried to comfort Gonta at all at the end of the trial. He's clearly a very damaged and deranged individual, but he's not a complete monster like Junko. I think a lot of that villain speech was him lying, as usual. Perhaps to unify the remaining cast against him? He definitely seemed somewhat taken aback at the end, when Shuichi called him pitiful, and was trying to reach out to Shuichi throughout the trial.
With that said, he is still turning out to be an absolutely amazing villain. He brings a lot of the same tension to V3 that Komaeda brought to DR2.
With that said... why on Earth haven't they restrained him yet? The DR2 cast was smart: they dealt with Komaeda immediately after his involvement in the first trial was revealed. I realize he has revealed himself to not be as weak as he initially seemed, but it should be a trivial matter for Maki to tie him up and store him somewhere. Clearly he's a danger to everyone there.
The outside world being likened to "hell" is disconcerting. I wonder what the twist will be here, as they pulled the "outer world is destroyed" card in the first game, so I doubt they'll repeat it.
I... feel bad for Gonta, but not nearly as bad as I thought I would. At the end of the day, Gonta made a clear, conscious decision to try and wipe out the rest of the cast, regardless of his motives or however Kokichi manipulated him. There was no compulsion involved, and Gonta made the decision after having been exposed to the motive. I realize that Kokichi was likely manipulating Gonta's gullible nature, but I don't think he's so innocent that he didn't realize the gravity of the sin he was committing (clearly not, given his despairing reaction to the events of this trial).
The Gonta version of Alter Ego was an interesting callback to the first game. There are a TON of callbacks to the first two games, come to think about it.
The rest of the cubs dying was... weird. Although this entire soap opera going on with them has been amusing, to say the least. It was interesting to see genuine emotion from Monotaro about Miu.
Speaking of Miu, it turned out that she was just trying to murder everyone to get out. She didn't even have a real reason, other than being a piece of trash that only cares about herself. And she ended up being so pathetic that she couldn't even carry out the murder she had planned from the start. Good riddance.
EDIT: Oh, and Monokuma's depression and channeling of Doctor Eggman were both pretty funny.
So, my eyes are burning, and I'm only going to get a few hours of sleep, but I managed to clear the entirety of the fifth chapter today and, good lord, was that pure insanity!
Best trial in the series, bar none.
Probably the best chapter in the series. I can't see the next one topping this, but, who knows? * I knew Kokichi was a deeper and more interesting character than he was putting on, and he proved it with his absolutely brilliant plan to foil Monokuma. At the end, despite his willingness to commit cruelty, you can't really fault him for doing what he felt like he needed to do to keep everyone else from dying in the killing game. He has managed to one-up Nagito, and I really didn't expect that to happen. * But was he really a Remnant of Despair? Either way, probably the most awesome character in the game. * I guess I should have expected something like this, considering all of the trials have been callbacks to previous cases in the first two games. Strong echoes of Nagito's scheming and death. * Let's not forget Kaito, whose marvelous acting made for an utterly memorable try, and who awesomely went out on his own terms. * I loved that Maki finally got to confess her feelings to Kaito, even under the tragic circumstances. I really feel like her character came full circle here. Maki's problem from the beginning has been The Hedgehog's Dilemma, but she's finally willing to allow others to get close to her. * Junko is back?! I can't help but feel like this is a red herring. * And Keebo is destroying the academy. I guess this'll make for a pretty intriguing setup in the final chapter. * And, oh yeah, the Earth is apparently uninhabitable now. That blows. I was disappointed early on when I thought that this "Earth is destroyed!" twist was the big surprise in Ch. 5. Oh, how wrong I was.
Threw out my back yesterday while I was at a con, meaning I had to stay pent up in my hotel room for most of it.
Decided: hey, since I'm stuck in bed anyway, I might as well finish Danganronpa V3.
Welp.
So... thoughts...
1) Let's get this out of the way: the central twist of the final chapter and, thus, of the game at large makes most of the game's more intricate plotting and character building feel meaningless. What's the point of building up a hundred mysteries and intriguing character backstories, only to say "lol actually none of this really happened" at the end?
2) The game's twist re-contextualizes the events of every other entry in the series, and not in a particularly good way.
3) With that said... even though this sort of thing has been done before in isolated projects (Spec Ops: The Line, Undertale, etc.), I've never seen the latest entry in a reasonably popular series decide to target its own audience and spectacularly nuke its own mythology in this way. It's... daring. Infuriating, but certainly a bold take.
4) While I still think the borderline incoherent "hope vs despair" theme in previous games did a lot to lend a unique identity to the series, it was interesting to see V3 deconstruct it so thoroughly.
5) The sheer ferocity with which the game goes after its own fanbase (in terms of telling them hard truths they need to hear and mercilessly dissecting the "sacred texts" of the series' lore) reminds me of Hideaki Anno's similarly infuriating and post-modern masterpiece, The End of Evangelion.
6) While it probably tipped too far in the direction of lecturing for my tastes, I thought the thematic focus on the potency of narrative (called "fiction" in this game) to affect human life and society more broadly was interesting, if somewhat under-developed.
7) While I found Tsumugi's reveal as the "mastermind" to be somewhat underwhelming, I can't deny that the shape-shifting hob-goblin she turned into made the last trial unique.
8) I kind of feel like the epilogue was a cop-out, a way to pull back from the severity of Danganronpa V3's finale. Until that point, the game felt like it wasn't pulling any of its punches, and was ripped characters, established lore, and plot points apart left and right. Why chicken out in the end to try and force a "happy ending?"
9) More than anything, the authorial intent feels incredibly strong here. Kodaka doesn't want to make any more of these games, and, instead of letting the series go on and on until it became a parody of its former self, decided to destroy the foundations of the series itself. I can respect that, and I feel like, even if we get any more of these games, this will still be the point where the actual series stopped. They can try and act like this game was just an alternate universe or something, but its self-critique was simply too potent to ignore. There's no going back from this, in my opinion. At least, not for any self-respecting company.
10) I'm going to miss this series.
In the meantime, however, V3 has an absurd amount of post-game content for people going for the platinum trophy. I don't usually bother with trophy hunting, but I've platinumed all of the other games in the series, so it would be unthinkable not to do the same here, even if it means struggling to get an S rank on some of these infuriatingly difficult minigames, or grinding content over and over.
In terms of how I'd rank the chapters, I'd probably go:
Ch. 5 (seriously, it's so well-plotted and executed) > Ch. 4 (really ingenious mystery and setting in this chapter) > Ch. 6 (mind-blowing, but... yeah, I'm still not sure how much I actually liked it as a conclusion) > Ch. 1 (Fantastic trial, but somewhat bloated running time otherwise) > Ch. 3 (Great set-up, and some good character moments for Tenko, Himiko, and Angie, but the actual identity of the murderer was pretty disappointing. Also feel like the cult plotline wasn't developed enough) > Ch. 2 (OK trial, but this chapter felt like a waste otherwise)
@KratosMD Hey, have you tried going for the platinum in this game? I've spent the last half week trying to S-rank all of the arcade games on mean difficulty. Outlaw Run and the fishing one weren't too bad, but Treasure Hunter! Monolith is seriously the most despair-inducing thing I've ever encountered in a Danganronpa game. I've probably played it hundreds of times now trying to go for that S-rank. And that music loop is the most repetitive thing I've ever heard. And there's not even a quick restart option for these games!
@Ralizah I sort of agree with the your thoughts about the ending. I had mixed feelings but I ended up hating it and wrote about it in the this topic sometime ago.
As for the Platinum I really suck in those minigames, I ended up giving up.
@belmont I somehow missed your posts on it completely!
I'm impressed you remembered about the bathroom in the first chapter. I guess it didn't help that I got so bummed out by the Ch. 1 ending plot twist and the overall mediocrity of chapter 2 that I quit the game halfway through that chapter for a few months.
The ending chapter has definitely been growing on me over time.
The ending is the culmination of themes and ideas that have been developing over the course of the game. Is there a difference between facts and truth? Can lies lead to the truth? What does it even mean for something to be "true?" There's also a lot of material on pure rationality, faith, and where they intersect. It's easy to see the ending as a fourth wall-breaking a*spull at first, a cheap parlor trick that ruins, not only the drama of the rest of the game, but the lore and mystique developed by the entire series. I... don't think this reading is entirely accurate though. For a few reasons:
The game explicitly addresses this when it talks about "lies becoming truth" based on how they impact reality. It ultimately doesn't matter if these characters objectively experienced the events that made them who they are. What matters is how it turned them into the people they became, and how they responded to it. Does it REALLY matter if Maki wasn't actually raised as an assassin if she has all of the memories of someone who was?
There's no actual fourth wall break. I think this is the biggest misconception. I mean, I do think there is some metacommentary on the nature of fandom at large, but what's easy to miss is that the game isn't directly addressing itself toward the player as a video game. Instead, it takes place in an alternate universe where the Danganronpa games became so popular that they morphed into a kind of heightened reality show once technology developed to the point where human minds could be completely overwritten. This was done because human society has become so bored and complacent in its utopian privilege that people will deliberately have their identities erased and engage in a killing game to give their lives a sense of purpose or direction. There's probably a commentary on alienation, boredom, and capitalism in there, but I won't get into that now. Also, an interesting ethics piece about whether or not pre-Danganronpa Kaede, Shuichi, etc. could realistically consent to take part in the killing game if their post-Danganronpa personalities turn them into entirely different people.
This should mean that Danganronpa V3 takes place in a universe where Danganronpa 1, 2, 3, and UDG were always anime and manga. If that's the case, it doesn't really impact the lore of those series at all, anymore than them being fictional in our universe impacts their lore.
The ending is less important for its revelations about previous Danganronpa games being fiction, then, and more important for the elaborate metaphor it constructs to analyze humanity in a post-modern condition where nothing is certain and life is objectively meaningless. When they say "Danganronpa is fiction," think "God is dead." The ending becomes less about "lol previous games didn't actually happen" and more about humans learning to construct their own meaning and purpose in a post-meaning, post-purpose context. It's essentially an existentialist narrative.
Just as someone who's never tried this series before, but has the Ace Attorney games as his favourite gaming series ever, I was just wondering if you would recommend these games to me? In what ways are they similar, what ways are they different, and mainly do they have as engrossing a plot as those games do?
@BranJ0 I haven’t played Ace Attorney before, but I have heard Danganronpa compared to it. Perhaps someone who has played both series will comment. But I will say, the story of the Danganronpa games is the very essence of an “engrossing plot.” The gameplay and the trials are fun in their own right, with the relationship building and mini games added on, but the plot and it’s twists and turns is top notch for sure. They do need to be played in order, so run, don’t walk, to obtain the first game and get started on this awesome series!
Edit: in full disclosure, I haven’t played V3 yet, partly because I know it will take over my life when I do, but the first two games as well as the spin off, Ultra Despair Girls, are just outstanding for those who like a good story.
@BranJ0 Both series have a wonderfully absurd sense of humor, and both feature massive, hours-long trials where you present evidence you've collected to destroy contradictions and find the truth about a crime. There's also a similarity in the general gameplay loops.
AA: VN story segments --> Murder and investigation --> VN story segments --> Trial
Danganronpa: VN story segments --> Free time where you can spend time with different characters (think something akin to the social links in Persona games) --> VN story segments --> Free time --> Murder and investigation --> Class trial
With that said, there is some overlap between the two fanbases. I and several of my real life friends are massive fans of both series, even as different as they are. I'd absolutely recommend trying Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc out, and if you like it, look forward to an series of games, anime, and light novels that elaborate on those themes, characters, lore, etc.
The plots are compelling, dark, and complex in these games. There's, as I said, some absurdity, but if it doesn't bother you in Ace Attorney, it probably shouldn't bother you here.
The games are on PC, Vita, and PS4, so it shouldn't be too hard to find something to play them on.
@Ralizah Thanks for the reply and the input. I really loved the discussion on this topic.
@BranJ0 As the other friends noted if you love Ace Attorney you will also like Danganronpa.
I also personally consider AA as one of my favourite series due to story and characters. I played the first Danganronpa by luck and liked it. The main difference is the mini games Danganronpa has during trials that most people like but I personally find them out of place and boring.
If you play Danganronpa you should get them in the order they were released because they make no sense otherwise.
To everyone who is keeping this topic alive: you discussing the game in this topic got me into the series in the first place, and today the discussion got me back into Danganronpa 2 again (it fell of my radar for a bit).
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