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Topic: The Chit Chat Thread

Posts 8,741 to 8,760 of 8,801

RogerRoger

@Th3solution Just another grim reminder that, as you say, gaming is an industry. We look at games as works of art; we get caught up in their spectacle and immersed in their stories, but the sad truth is that each game is a product, with its sales targets set by financial executives and middle managers interested in pleasing shareholders and, as we all know, middle managers can't possibly make mistakes about such things, so when a game doesn't meet their lofty expectations, we get statements about its "disappointing" performance shifting blame to the developers or consumers, or both.

It's a stupid kind of business logic at work. "Well, since Avengers Endgame made a billion bucks at the box office with ten buck tickets, then a sixty-buck Guardians of the Galaxy game should make us six times the profit, right?" "Er... yeah, right!" "Awesome! Let's go yacht shopping!" And then suddenly it's a problem that everybody who watched a Marvel movie isn't also interested in playing a Marvel game.

The statement from Embracer is worrying, given that they've just purchased Tomb Raider. Back in 2013, Squeenix said that the first reboot was similarly "disappointing" because it topped the charts for weeks and shifted a million copies within 48 hours, rather than topping the charts for months and shifting two million copies overnight. I was hoping Lara would be safe in more patient hands. Oh well.

Sorry. That turned into a bit of a rant. Games are still awesome, and we'll always have plenty to play!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Th3solution

@RogerRoger The comments about Tomb Raider underperforming actually came to my mind also. I was perplexed and bothered by them when they were spoken years ago, because the series reboot was on a lot of people’s GOTY lists and it seemed fans were well pleased with the game.

I agree — unreasonable expectations is much of the issue. Businesses hitting some arbitrary profitability mark can create goals so lofty that even wildly successful games fall short.

Ah well, I’ve never had much of a business acumen, and I shall die poor because of it I’m sure. But hey, you can’t take it with you.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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Forum Megapoll 2020 - Best Video Game Box Art: Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Special Edition

RogerRoger

@Th3solution You most certainly can't, so spend your time and energy on things you enjoy, and are good at. Let everybody else chase "success" (whatever that even means) and be happy with what you can do, rather than what others think you should be doing.

That, and play plenty of awesome games. Always make time for awesome games!

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

mookysam

@Th3solution @RogerRoger I know it's easy for us to scoff at Square-Enix being disappointed with Tomb Raider 2013's 4.5 million sales figures, but that game allegedly cost $100million to make, so it was not enough to break even at that point. Although it eventually made a profit, it's worth pointing out that later sales were for heavily discounted copies of the game. Even where a game makes its development budget back, the question for a publisher will surely become "would that $100million have been better spent on other, less risky, but potentially more profitable projects?" Some projects are woefully mismanaged, wasting time and resources, and that's absolutely on producers and managers, and others have entirely unrealistic expectations to begin with. Gamers themselves are arguably part of the problem, because of the demand for detailed, technically proficient visuals and motion-capped cinematics in modern AAA games.

@RogerRoger Embracer seem more interested in buying up studios and IP than actually releasing quality software, so who know what they expect. 😂 There's no question that Crystal Dynamics and the other old Eidos studios lost money, so we'll see.

Black Lives Matter
Trans rights are human rights

Th3solution

@mookysam Yeah, you raise some valid points. I look at Tomb Raider and I see a well made game and AAA quality, but I don’t know that it looks far and away more expensive to make than its peers, like Assassin’s Creed games at the time or Uncharted. Those games sold better so it’s maybe not a perfect comparison, but maybe the inFAMOUS games or Batman Arkham games — all considered wildly successful. So there seems to be clearly production management issues at Square-Enix, with the way they throw around their assets, money, and IP. I mean for goodness sake— Babylon’s Fall… what in the world is going on there? Especially after they sounded off about how much money they’ve lost on Avengers. Then they go and do it again with another live-service debacle? Perhaps Avengers taught them it would be best to cut bait quickly rather than try to nurse the game along on life support. And yet… Final Fantasy XIV exists.

With Guardians of the Galaxy it was really weird how quickly the game was discounted. If memory serves, I saw it’s price plummet within the first few weeks of release and way before I heard about it being a failure. So I wonder, if they would have just had some patience and let word of mouth work for them if they could have recouped more revenue rather than putting it on a fire sale so quickly and calling it a disappointment. And yet, I’ve been wondering why they keep the struggling Avengers behind a paywall, when it seems like F2P might give it some life. At least it’s on PS+ now so I plan to give it a whirl soon.

Square-Enix just frustrates me. They produce really good games in general. But for every delightful surprise like Life is Strange or Nier Automata on top of consistent heavy hitters like FF, Dragon Quest, Kingdom Hearts, etc… there’s a Balan Wonderworld, Babylon’s Fall, The Quiet Man, or a fumbled Chrono Cross Remaster. Forspoken is making me nervous too.

Anyways, not complaining. It’s not of my concern how S-E or any of these companies run their business, but it’s just interesting how executives are discussing the financial performance of their games lately.

Edited on by DreamlandGem

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

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Forum Megapoll 2020 - Best Video Game Box Art: Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Special Edition

Gremio108

@Th3solution No Man's Sky is another one. How is that game still making a profit, given the resources which are presumably being poured into its various updates? Always baffles me.

Good job, Parappa. You can go on to the next stage now.

PSN: Hallodandy

mookysam

@Th3solution Tomb Raider took over 4 years to make, so I wonder if the scope of the project kept changing, or if there were numerous prototypes that led to development being restarted multiple times. Something, somewhere was amiss. The money poured into it was certainly abnormal given average AAA development costs were around $20million on the 360 and PS3. BioShock Infinite is another one. I absolutely adore the game, but it seems to have been in development hell, with the consoles of the time holding back its technical scope. It's not unusual for content to be cut and things to change, but it ended up causing long delays and the game being quite different to initial trailers and previews. It just goes to show how important good project management is and proper allocation of funds. No idea what went on with Babylon's Fall though. It looks like a disaster on every level, and Sony execs are probably feeling a bit silly given they paid for exclusivity. Square-Enix are releasing a huge amount of games over the next few months, and surely they will not all sell well. Hopefully they've learnt their lesson and budgeted appropriately.

Yeah, with Guardians of the Galaxy, it's weird just how quickly it (and other games, like Far Cry 6) were discounted last year. It wasn't even given a chance at full price. Things do seem to be written off very quickly, and publishers almost go into headless chickenesque panic mode if sales expectations are not met. I think I once read that most game purchases occur within the first week of sale, so perhaps that tiny window really is make make or break for most AAA games.

Black Lives Matter
Trans rights are human rights

RogerRoger

@mookysam Well yeah, that's a good point but, as you say, that's still the fault of Squeenix and Crystal Dynamics for poor resource management and chucking wheelbarrows of cash down a bottomless pit. In terms of copies shifted and chart performance, the game was a huge success; the fault still lies with the executives who kept writing cheques to cover (amongst other things) Cory Barlog's arrogant experimental demands that ultimately went nowhere and achieved nothing.

I think the biggest problem is that the gaming press, and by extension the gamers who read it out of genuine interest and passion, assume that these kinds of statements are released for their benefit. They're not. They're carefully crafted and timed to inform and appease shareholders.

Also, I'd be careful blaming gamer's expectations. If a publisher or developer thinks all of those AAA bells and whistles are needed for market success, then their product is weak, because they're not.

***

@Gremio108 The thing with No Man's Sky is that its pre-release hype was so unreal, it had already made a staggering profit before it even launched. The fact that it was (and I believe still is) made by a dozen people in a roadside café helped to keep its costs down, which in turn maximised those profit margins, but it's the same kinda thing you see with pre-planned season passes for AAA games. Ubisoft know that the next Assassin's Creed is gonna make X amount regardless, so they can afford to promise to spend Y amount on making more content for it, which will then generate Z amount.

Nevertheless, massive respect to Sean Murray and Hello Games for taking all of those millions and pouring them back into No Man's Sky. They were under no contractual or legal obligation to make the game work, let alone expand it so greatly. They could've just bought a tropical island and naffed off.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

Gremio108

@RogerRoger It's an incredible package at this point. My kids are still playing it and I wouldn't mind a playthrough myself, but I'd need a good month or two set aside for it, with minimum distractions. In fact I'd need to naff off to a tropical island, as you put it.

Anyone who buys the game now is getting a ridiculous amount of intergalactic bang for their buck. Perhaps the updates are fuelled by a sense of duty to fulfil the promise which sold so many copies in the first place. If that makes sense.

Good job, Parappa. You can go on to the next stage now.

PSN: Hallodandy

kyleforrester87

@Gremio108 NMS was made by around 10 people and from what I can see it’s sold around 800,000 in 2016 alone, bringing in $43 million. Apparently development costs were under 10 million. God knows what it’s made 2017>date but you at least have to assume it’s $100+ including PC, Switch, Xbox?

Ultimately they’ve supported it as a result of low development costs and I assume Sony covered all the advertisement at launch?

Edited on by kyleforrester87

kyleforrester87

PSN: WigSplitter1987

RogerRoger

@Gremio108 I keep meaning to return to it, too. It's sat on my PS4 Pro and there's an update for it every time I turn the console on, and I feel bad for ignoring it. It's just so daunting now!

And yeah, what you said makes total sense. It was the honourable thing to do. What's amazing is that they finished delivering on all the wacky pre-release promises three or four updates ago; everything since has been even more new content, game modes, player requested features, etc. so whatever's going on, it's working for them, and generating a heck of a lot of goodwill, which is great.

@kyleforrester87 I saw something saying that No Man's Sky gained a million new players in 2020. Even if you consider cheap sale prices and the pre-owned market, that's a crazy number, but I'm beyond pleased to see that the dedication of the developers is paying off.

"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."

PSN: GDS_2421
Making It So Since 1987

zracer20

any chance the vote your favorite ps4 games thread could be sorted alphabetically at the bottom instead of just numbers to better find your games to vote on? I was just thinking about what mine were the other day and then saw this and wanted to contribute.

Edited on by zracer20

zracer20

Kairu

@zracer20 Pretty sure there’s a search bar you can type the name of them into.

Can usually be found doing something. Often seen wearing clothes.

Just wants to play Silksong...

PSN: NotQuiteKairu | Twitter:

zracer20

Yeah I missed it. Thanks.

zracer20

nessisonett

Watched Federer’s last match. Proper emotional stuff, he’s been around my entire life. I always preferred the more boisterous players when he was first dominating but I appreciated his style of tennis a lot more as I got a bit older. One of the greatest of all time for sure.

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

Thrillho

@nessisonett Yeah, I always preferred Nadal’s pure aggression at the time as I always thought Fed was such a bland character (I mean, he used to come onto court in his own fashion range.. which was beige!) but enjoyed him much more later on.

That Wimbledon final between the two of them was immense though (2009?).

Thrillho

JohnnyShoulder

@Thrillho Nadal and his Bionic arm!

We are now in a world of people being offended for other people who they think should be offended, who arent offended.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

PSN: JohnnyShoulder

nessisonett

@Thrillho The very famous Wimbledon final was 2007, became we went on holiday to Italy that day and when we finally arrived at where we were staying, we saw Nadal’s victory speech at the bar. Missed one of the greatest matches of all time!

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

Thrillho

@nessisonett It’s hard to remember which one it was as they had a few humdingers around that time!

Thrillho

nessisonett

Wonder if anything special will happen if the pound goes below the dollar. Like organ music playing in the streets or something. I’m sure blind faith will work, just look at how it’s totally worked for those cryptobros who kept on buying the dip.

Plumbing’s just Lego innit. Water Lego.

Trans rights are human rights.

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