@ralphdibny Great write-up, thanks for sharing (and for the tag)!
I think you were smart to start with First Contact, because I feel that Enterprise is a sequel to it more than it's a prequel to the original series. If a deranged Romulan can justify the entire Kelvin Timeline, then I'm pretty sure Zefram Cochrane's best friend helping to fight time-travelling Borg can explain away any of the minor inconsistencies people like to berate Enterprise for.
At any rate, your focus on characters (rather than technicalities) is why I love Star Trek and you're right, Enterprise has some really memorable ones. I do love Archer, even in his darker moments, and you're not alone in highlighting Shran. He would've joined the NX-01 as a regular in the fifth season, had it gone ahead, because he was so popular and the writers enjoyed playing with him. I also applaud your mention of Soval, who is oft-overlooked because he frequently shows up opposite Shran. I reckon he's just as good, and wouldn't have minded most of the Vulcan episodes if he was consistently the primary focus. Whilst I would've liked the core crew to share more of the storylines in its latter two seasons (because I do think that the show's gradual obsession with Trip wears thin towards the end) everything works out on balance, more or less.
I also really liked Silik (played brilliantly by John Fleck) and the fact that Archer had a recurring nemesis who occasionally helped him, but openly always wanted to kill him.
Your musings on the title sequence hit home. Although I do kinda prefer the more upbeat remix of the title song (because it's cheesy and I'm me) the words are perfect, especially when combined with the montage visuals tracking the history of human exploration. It upsets me greatly that we've stopped making such imaginative and risky leaps, and settled for advancing our own comfort instead. I'm always shocked when I hear that the title sequence put off so many fans; don't get me wrong, I personally prefer the orchestral themes of Voyager and The Next Generation (and Deep Space Nine once they'd upped its tempo) but I still "get" it enough to respect it.
"Cogenitor" is a stunning episode, in every sense of the word. I completely agree with you about it, and know exactly the feeling you describe. I rarely see it talked about, but it's a big favourite of mine. For a franchise criticised for repeating itself over and over, it was a really unique (and fair) way of exploring cultural differences and the pitfalls of applying your own values to others, no matter how well-intentioned. I still don't know what the right answer would've been, and I love that the episode doesn't try to tell me what it should be (especially since today's television would definitely have an opinion).
And yes, the budget cuts. It's mostly in the music, which swaps out a full orchestra for a couple of cheaper synthetic ones halfway through Season Three. It isn't so noticeable at first, but in Season Four it becomes really quick-and-dirty work and, as a soundtrack buff, it just drags the overall atmosphere of the show down for me. There's also an abundance of re-used ship shots (which I think the serialised nature of the latter seasons makes me notice more) and the overall episode count itself, twenty-six for the first two seasons, then twenty-four for Season Three and twenty-two for Season Four.
Then there's the little things which point to a rushed production, like Trip's warp speed transfer in "Divergence" where he's coming from Columbia and yet his EV suit still has the Enterprise mission patch on it, because they forgot to repaint the prop (and after Captain Hernandez made such a big deal about his uniform when he arrived, too). There's also this moment from the episode "Bound" which is totally immersion-shattering, a crime the spin-off shows had always been careful to avoid.
I mean, I don't mind Beverly Crusher wearing a wrist-watch, and at least the black cardboard stuck over bridge displays in the early days of The Next Generation makes sense from a production standpoint, but forgetting to install an entire wall of your primary set is inexcusable.
We'll come back to your thoughts on the show's structure, as a prequel to pop culture icons everybody expects to see regardless of what the timeline demands, once you've finished it. I'll be really interested to read what you think of the final episode, "These Are The Voyages..." for reasons I won't explain yet, in case they colour your re-watch. I'm glad you've had such a blast with it regardless!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
I always thought it was interesting in Star Trek how each new series had its own 'special' character who would have very unique abilities and of course would often ask the big questions about humanity and so on.
Starting with Spock and then Data, the Doctor in Voyager and Odo. When I was younger, I was quite excited to see Odo do some of his shape shifting antics but in the end, I think he was definitely the least interesting character out of the 4. But to be fair, the other three are incredibly hard acts to follow.
Speaking of archer's darker moments, one really cool scene was at the end of season 2, I can't remember the lines verbatim but it was basically Trip declaring war on the xindi and making sure that the enterprise wouldn't be taking any names so to speak when they get out there.
There were a couple things that didn't sit well for me though, like when they pirated that ship for the warp coil. I'm almost all for it because they were in a dire situation but I really would have liked a quick scene in the final episode where they find the ship they pirated and give it back. Even if the victims weren't grateful for the return, I feel like it would've been the right thing to do. There was another dark moment that I feel was unresolved but I can't quite remember what it was now.
I think I differ with you on Trip though, I really liked his development with T'Pol. You just know from that sexy decon scene in the early episodes that there will be more between them (and I guess I knew because I'd seen it before!) But I just like how they grew together, T'Pol lightening up a lot and finding herself but still playing hard to get. It would be difficult to say they are both a pair of my favourite characters because frankly, all the characters are. Hoshi, Phlox, Malcolm, Travis, Archer and err Crewman Cutler and Sluggo š. I didn't really get on with Kelby though, but to be fair he only had about 4 episodes where he played an important role and most of the time he wasn't himself or was under suspicion.
Malcolm's "I'm fully prepared for any reprimand you may have in mind Captain" line has become a regular quote for me to say in every day life at the moment and also "the Captain will have us scrubbing plasma conduits for a month!" Like Archer would punish people with that š and they also seem to just be always scrubbing plasma conduits anyway even when it's not a punishment!
I enjoyed the episodes where Malcolm was compromised by his Section 31 responsibilities. It definitely gave him a few more layers to his personality.
Oh yeah I almost forgot about Silik, he was brilliant! He just had a really cool look to him with his big eyes and permanent smirk. I'm glad we got to see the dude without his make up on in the alternate history episodes. He's a very cool character.
I didn't notice the music swap but I guess I can understand the reused ship shots, I'm sure it's a bit of a thing in Star Trek as a whole anyway, how many different animations of a ship flying through space can there be? I also noticed the episode count but again it's a thing that happens with TV shows for loads of reasons. X files had a bunch of excruciatingly long seasons and a few shorter 20 episode ones (mainly to do with them filming the first movie). I remember the writers strike around 2008 or so, chopped ten episodes off shows I watched at the time like Lost and House. Lost was better for it as they adopted the shorter seasons for the rest of the show which made the story a lot tighter in a good way.
Haha I wonder if they had just never filmed the bridge from that angle before though. I didn't notice it, I guess production just didn't think anyone would notice due to the... intensity of the scene... There was a similar thing in the final episode of X files where you can see a runner or an AD just hiding behind a small cabinet as Skinner and Mulder walk down an FBI hall way. I quite like goofs like this though, they do make me laugh. Speaking of that bound episode, is that a PC retcon making the slave girls into the masters or did it just apply in the case of this particular Orion crew. It's a bit of a weird development for that species.
As for These are the Voyages... It's a bit of a mixed bag and I've always thought that. Just because it's a bit insulting to Enterprise to make the final episode an episode of next gen. There's good bits and bad bits. Obviously Shrans presence is a highlight, even if he's oddly characterised as toeing the line with the law as opposed to the patriotic but cautiously diplomatic commander he's always been. It was quite cool to see his half Aenar daughter though which follows up on his plotline with the Aenar girl from the Romulan episodes. It's quite funny I suppose, that Riker takes the place of the chef as you never see any more than the chef's legs up to this point. Trips inexplicable self sacrifice is a bit stupid though. Of all the close calls and scrapes they've got through together, why did Trip all of a sudden start acting like a maniac and decide to kamikaze these criminals to save Archer. Did he feel like he wouldn't have a life off Enterprise? If so then why did he make all these plans and reaffirming statements to his colleagues.
Those are just the iffy bits of the episode but there's plenty of good in it too but those parts slip my mind now that I've focused on the criticisms. One bit that did send shivers up my spine though was the dissolve transition between the three Enterprises and archival sound clips in the final shot. That was a really nice end to it.
I've always wanted to edit this episode into the Pegasus Next gen episode that it's supposed to take place during. I think the differing aspect ratios along with Rikers big belly would be pretty jarring though but maybe I'll get around to it some day. Maybe his big belly could be explained by him eating all the food as a chef in the holodeck. Overall it's an interesting idea to set it during a next gen episode but The Pegasus is a weird choice.
I watched The Cage last night because I was trying to figure out the best order to watch Discovery and Short Treks in only to also find out The Cage is set before discovery. Apparently this is alluded to by the second half of season 2 which I haven't seen yet. Also by the dates, but I've always thought the TOS star dates were a bit arbitrary to make it seem like they were in the future and they weren't normalised until next gen which I guess is why I never paid much attention to them in TOS. I'm not sure what order to watch the first few TOS eps in either. The second pilot episode actually aired as episode 3 and I'm sure it had inexplicably different costumes in it for a third episode but maybe I'll just go with it and see what it's like. There's a bit of mental gymnastics needed to make some of TOS make sense anyway but I'm no stranger to head canon.
@LieutenantFatman Odo is one of my favourite characters! I never really saw him play the role you give him but I think you might be right. It's quite different though because he comes at it with a strong and impartial moral compass, at least at first. I really like him though, especially when he relaxes his stiff upper lip. There's one particularly notable scene he shares with a young girl where he talks about something gobbling her up that really showed his softer side. I forget the details because it's been a while since I've watched it. Who do you think the comparable character for Enterprise is? T'Pol or phlox? Or just the whole crew because it's Earth's first deep space exploration mission? It's gotta be Saru for discovery I suppose. He's definitely an interesting outsider character
@ralphdibny
I definitely don't think Odo is bad, i really enjoyed the relationship and banter between him and Quark. And as you say, they show his character has depth. I just mean the other three are on a whole other level, both in terms of their abilities, saving the day and finding ways to keep them continuously fresh and interesting.
As for Enterprise, that's one of the few Trek shows I never watched, but I'm guessing they probably dropped the need for that style of almost super powered character after that.
@LieutenantFatman Yeah, I think you're spot-on there and, if I may bring in @ralphdibny to answer the Enterprise question, I think T'Pol and Phlox both had effective moments of holding up a mirror to humanity's traits, both good and bad. I think Phlox in particular was designed to be the "well-travelled sage" who would challenge the crew's preconceptions for them. Of course, this also helped the writers elsewhere, because all the characters you mention had episodes where their differences made them the only ones special enough to save the day, and both T'Pol and Phlox filled this role on Enterprise, in "Singularity" and "Doctor's Orders" respectively.
Of course, fans would also write in suggesting that Porthos should somehow rescue everybody because he was the only non-humanoid aboard, and... well, however terrible that idea might've been, it still would've turned out better than "Precious Cargo".
I'd also add Seven of Nine to that list, for Voyager. Her story arc is very accomplished.
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@ralphdibny No worries! Given how this topic's core contributors have all left recently, I was starting to feel like the only Trekkie in the village. It's nice to see it back, so thank you!
Archer's treatment of Sim. That's the other moment, alongside the warp coil theft, where I feel like the writers pushed him over the line. You're right, I'd have preferred some proper repercussions for both incidents, but I guess we're just left with "Home" early in the fourth season, where Archer is generally shown coming to terms with what he did, good and bad.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I like Trip a lot and his relationship with T'Pol was great. I just think they spent a lot of time on it, particularly in the fourth season. It's time which could've been better served giving some of the other characters more frequent breaks (Travis does spend most of Season Three sitting in silence, after all; at least Hoshi got kidnapped a couple of times!) although I'm grateful that they found the time to flesh Malcolm out a bit more, as you say. But I get that the focus was always supposed to be on the "trinity" of Archer, T'Pol and Trip because it mirrored the success of Kirk, Spock and McCoy (and arguably Janeway, Seven and the Doctor). Did you know that, before they shook everything up in the third season, Archer and T'Pol were originally supposed to be the show's love story?
I think a lot of Malcolm's discipline issues are in his head. Remember the episode "Minefield" where Archer invites him to breakfast, and he doesn't know what to do with himself because "a captain shouldn't fraternise with his subordinates" or whatever? Poor guy!
Yeah, that's fair. As somebody who buys and listens to all the soundtracks, I was always gonna notice it more than most. And I do agree that a show shouldn't outstay its welcome; again, chalk that one up to me buying the show on DVD, falling for it and then being disappointed that there wasn't more of it (as I didn't frequent the internet at the time, and wasn't following its production). You made me laugh because you're right, why should anybody notice the missing viewscreen on the bridge? There's a semi-naked slave girl standing centre shot! That goof from The X-Files is a familiar one from the first season of 24, when things were a little more slapdash. I think it just surprised me because Star Trek had never, ever done anything like that before. My fault for not being interested in slave girls, I suppose!
I think the revelation about Orion culture wasn't as much a political correctness move, as it was the fact that Enterprise was the first show able to explore the Orions. They were sex objects in the original series because it was the 60s and that kinda crap was okay, and that made them kinda embarrassing for The Next Generation which came from that late-80s social enlightenment phase. Deep Space Nine never got around to them, and Voyager was 70,000 lightyears away. I think it's quite a cool twist (and then it's just a coincidental by-product that it helps make an original series re-watch a little more tolerable by modern standards, which shouldn't matter but... yeah).
You're actually being really kind and fair towards "These Are The Voyages..." and I appreciate that, because most people are extreme in their criticism, amplified by the internet's echo chamber. I'm one of the teeny-tiny minority who think it's brilliant; I'd actually go as far as to say that it's my all-time favourite episode of any Star Trek show. Whatever intent they had, whatever mark they were aiming for, they hit the bullseye with me. Apologies for the forthcoming tangent. I'll try and be brief.
Patrick Stewart tells a story which means a lot to me, because it kinda reflects my lifelong relationship with the franchise. He says that he once received a letter from a Las Vegas police officer, which said something along the lines of "...in my job, I see some really awful things, the worst of humanity, and there are days where it really drags me down... on those days, I come home and put in a tape of The Next Generation, and it helps me believe that things will get better." Nothing sums up Gene Roddenberry's optimism better, and my own experiences would take much longer to type out, but that's why I love "These Are The Voyages..." so much, because we are Riker. We are the person facing a crisis and using Star Trek as a morality check to help us deal. Riker is literally watching Star Trek to gain some insight and perspective on his own humanity. It's a beautiful concept, no matter how cheesy, and it means the world to me because it feels like it's carrying a very personal message.
Is it a fitting conclusion for the Enterprise crew? No, but then they got one in the preceding two-parter, where everybody had a part to play and Archer made his best-ever speech. "These Are The Voyages..." is basically a standalone celebration episode covering eighteen years of television, a fond farewell to the franchise's second life. I often watch it on its own, separate from any broader Star Trek marathons, whenever I need reminding that everything is gonna be okay.
Sorry, rant over! Everything you said is totally valid, and understandable. It's also pretty impossible to edit into "The Pegasus" because it takes some... let's call them, "creative liberties" with timings and Riker's eventual concluding resolve to speak with Picard (he never does; the revelations surrounding the USS Pegasus are forced out of him in the original episode).
That's a good point about "The Cage" and you're right, you should watch it before Discovery. I've only ever watched the original series through once and, when I did, I skipped ahead and watched "Where No Man Has Gone Before" first, because I knew it was the second pilot in advance. If you know about the production order, then it shouldn't be too jarring to watch in broadcast order. All of the original series episodes are incredibly self-contained anyway and yes, you're gonna need a lot of that headcanon when they start going Warp 14 to visit the Andromeda Galaxy every other week! Best of luck!
My word, I've written a lot of words. Apologies; please don't feel obligated to reply to everything!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@LieutenantFatman@RogerRoger oh yeah I forgot about seven of nine! She is one of my favourite characters and voyager became really good when she joined
@RogerRoger no problemo, glad I could resurrect it! It's definitely good to discuss trek but I fear I may be a bit quiet when discovery season 3 starts airing as I probably won't get around to it until much later. I wonder when Picard is getting a UK blu ray release, it's supposed to come out in a few days in other regions but I haven't seen a UK site listing it for sale yet.
The Sim (or Sym, however you spell it) episode was definitely a tough one. I do like the complicated morality of some of these shows. I didn't feel like that one was unresolved though in the same way as the warp coil piracy. It was kind of just done and there wasn't a lot they could do about it apart from mourn, feel guilt and move on.
I didn't know that about T'Pol and Archer but there definitely hints to it. It could've gone any and either way, everyone seemed to fancy T'Pol!
Malcolm is definitely a victim of his own preconceptions but it definitely makes him a loveable, if not a little weird, character. But it also makes it more rewarding when he is able to come out of his shell and also in the opposite way when he becomes compromised by his Section 31 duties.
Enterprise and discovery seemed to deal with the Orions in different ways, Enterprise flipped it so the men were the actual supposed victims which kind of carries on the same hipocrisy and Discovery showed us Orion slave men which is almost better in a way because it shows that the depravity isn't a sexist one and is almost equal in a way. I don't think either are necessarily bad, I mean obviously slavery is really bad but I'm not fussed about the objectification of men or women, as long as the actors are OK with it/want it to happen. I'll need to rewatch the Kirk era episodes that deal with the Orions to really make a thought on them as it's been a while since I've seen them. I know The Cage had a brief moment where that Venar turned into an Orion but I think anything questionable in that episode was over shadowed by Pike saying that he'll "never get used to women on the bridge" š¤¦š»āāļø. That was just really weird but also quite funny in how stupid it was. It's funny how the more recent creators seem obsessed with Pike despite one of his only two previous appearances showed him to be a rampant sexist but I'm guessing that by ignoring that one facet, the curiosity of the almost entirely recast pilot episode makes for some unexplored lore that can be expanded upon in the Kelvin timeline and the Discovery era.
That's an interesting way to look at that These are the Voyages and you're definitely not wrong about it! I'd struggle to poopoo a lot of Trek as a whole because I love it so much, it's more a case of some stuff is brilliant, some stuff is good and not a lot is terrible. If I criticise, it's more for the sake of discourse and it really doesn't mean I love the franchise any less because of the criticisms. Except maybe Cumberbatch's Khan but we will get to that in due course...š I'm still a long way from the Romulan supernova in my re watch!
From memory and this is not so much about the ideologies themselves, I've always liked the utopia that the federation created. But I've also always been fascinated by how that intersects with other cultures that don't share the same ideologies and also by the people from Federation worlds that are kind of left behind by the united ideology. It does show the cracks in the Federations policies and brings up the question of homogenisation and its moral implications. DS9 and early voyager both kind of deal with that in an interesting way. I'll probably touch on that a bit more when I get there in the rewatch!
So far I've watched both the first seasons of Discovery and Short Treks. I love the Klingons in Discovery, they look so alien. It really works because they are the primary antagonists and it makes them more scary in an unknown kind of way. I can buy the changes to them as well because it's more a case of advances in prosthetics that show off more of the differences between them and humans. I really like the paced and considered use of their language by some of them like T'Kuvma and Voq. I'm totally gutted that T'Kuvma isn't in it much either, he was just brilliant!
I kind of think the ending of it is a bit dumb though. L'Rell is basically able to hold a gun to the head of Qo'nos and unite the houses under it. It seems a bit cheap and lacking in the typical Klingon honour we've come to expect. I know their adherence to honour can be a bit farcical anyway but that seemed a bit too out of line for me to buy it. I guess they did write themselves into a corner with though and needed to get out of it quickly.
I really like the new warthog style design for the Tellarites too. I'm guessing we just never saw their tusks under the massive beards they've mostly all had up to this point! Not sure about the Andorian voice though, but that's probably just a little off because how notable Shran's voice is in Enterprise.
I'm probably alone in this as well but I just love Captain Lorca. I know he has a huge heel turn at the end but he was just such a cool character. He is one of my favourite characters in the show, he just looked cool, sounded cool and he wore the uniform really cool (if that makes sense). Kind of casual but authoratitative (this word looks really weird when I spell it, lots of extraneous tits and tats but I got a blue line under authorative so I have reluctantly changed it...) I really liked the trainer style boots they all wear. Yeah I duno, Lorca's obviously a bit of a tool and very manipulative but I'd really liked to have seen a fairly quick redemption arc and for him to be back to his firm, decisive but also loving and caring ways. I know it's fake persona because he has an agenda but he's still just so cool! I don't really feel betrayed but then again I'm not a crew member so I guess I wouldn't lol
I think Paul is my other favourite character, he is just really funny and I guess I just quite like arsey characters like him and T'Pol that get to show their softer sides. I did watch 8 seasons of House after all! Also the episodes where he's really tripped out on mushrooms or er, the mycelial network are highlights of the series.
I'll probably have more to say on it once I've finished season 2!
@nessisonett haha really? I think the simple "go" is pretty good anyway, it's functional and it just works as a catchphrase which suits Lorca down to a tee. I love it went Saru is acting captain and says it too, shows that he's learnt a lot from Lorca
I've heard Clint Eastwood says it instead of action when he's directing a scene. Simple and effective so why not?
@ralphdibny Oh, don't worry, I'm not planning on watching Discovery at point-of-broadcast. I usually come along later and binge things. No idea about the Picard Blu-Ray, either! That is strange, but then I guess the pandemic has impacted manufacturing as well as global shipping.
You're right about Sim, as far as the episode's containment. I just feel like an ethics panel should've grilled Archer for his role executing (figuratively and literally) the whole affair.
Malcolm is very underrated. Episodes like "Minefield" are favourites of mine, coming from a military background and a family which is often divided on the whole duty-versus-friendship theme which Malcolm struggles with. Section 31 always make for good villains, I find, even though their whole existence is the antithesis of Gene's vision. The realities of making a TV show, I guess!
Yes, that line from Pike in "The Cage" really sticks out. I mean, there's plenty to disapprove of in the original series by today's standards but, when taken in context of its 60s production, it was lightyears ahead of social thinking. Pike saying that he'd never get used to a woman being on the bridge would've made some people recoil back in the day. You can isolate Pike from that moment and he's otherwise a great captain, and I'm pretty sure modern efforts to rehabilitate him and integrate him into current Star Trek canon will forever be sidestepping that unfortunate line. The whole Orion thing comes under "Well, it's a different culture, so...?" but the humans serving in Starfleet will always have to advance and adapt with the times. Heck, there are already qualities in the crew of the Enterprise-D which wouldn't fly today.
Agreed completely. Even the worst episodes of Star Trek hold some value for me, even if it's to serve as a reminder of how good its high points are! One of my most loathed episodes is "Profit and Lace" from Deep Space Nine, but even I'm forced to admit that I laughed at it one time.
Looking forward to your expanded thoughts on Federation culture, when you reach the Maquis (who have some of their best musings on the matter in The Next Generation, funnily enough). I think it's a pretty fascinating subject because you're right, you have this utopian society which frequently goes out and encounters other utopian societies that it subsequently clashes with, or disagrees with. I can't stand the execution of the episode "Justice" (Wesley falls in a flower bed and must be put to death; so bad, you'll want to die in a flower bed of your very own) but its premise is an interesting one. I also like how each of the spin-off shows were allowed to play with that idea; Sisko dealt with its flaws, both galactic and personal, whereas Janeway stuck rigidly to her Federation principles, some would argue to a fault.
Glad you're enjoying Discovery, though. It may never be my favourite, but I'm always pleased when somebody likes something, so that's great to hear. I think you've summed it up perfectly, by pointing out its positives (production quality, performances) whilst also noting that some of its story choices are a little rushed, therefore coming across as dumb at times. I think I'm on record somewhere calling its second season "dumb fun" and "pretty to look at" and y'know what? There are worse crimes. At least we've got new Star Trek to consider, which I'll always take as a positive.
Lorca was a highlight, for sure. Jason Isaacs never fails to steal the show (he was superb in Star Wars: Rebels as well) and would've liked for him to stick around. I never got along with Paul Stamets, unfortunately. Spent the entire time searching for what Hugh Culber (who seemed genuinely nice) saw in him and came away empty-handed, but then I suppose that's realistic, because there's no accounting for love. Will be interested to see what you make of him after the second season!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger I've finished discovery and season 2 of short treks now (apart from children of Mars which isn't on the blu ray and I've read is a prequel to Picard anyway). I think discovery is really good but I feel like I'd be forcing out an opinion if I talked about it in as much depth as I did Enterprise. It was good and fun but apart from the alien designs and certain characters, there's probably not a lot to say about it. The space battles were really cool though!
I think my favourite characters throughout have been Lorca, Pike, Paul and Hugh, Saru, T'Kuvma, L'Rell and Ash/Voq. Michael is ok but she is so intense, which I guess kind of gets made fun of by other characters such as Spock. I think the best way I could describe it, is the actor is kind of playing Michael like it's a film role. It's ok to have that much intensity for 2 hours when you have to force your character down an uninterested audiences throat to get the point across, but not so good for 29 hours of television.
I think season 1 was better than season 2 as a whole, though S2 has some brilliant episodes/moments. I think my favourite scene in season 2 is when Mirror Georgiou plays matchmaker with Paul and Hugh by winding them up with their supposed mirror universe counterparts enjoyment of orgies. I don't actually think what she said about them was necessarily true but it appeared to be an effective and pretty funny way of bringing them together against an enemy of their own perceived personalities.
I think first and the final episode of season 2 were just a bit too long as well. They slowed down and were a bit boring at times. The final episode made such pains to explain why Discovery and Burnham are never mentioned in the rest of Trek which I thought was totally unnecessary. They'd already set up multiple reasons why the spore drive was not practical for use in the next 200 years of Trek like the fact it requires a sentient tardigrade or a genetically enhanced human, it destroys the natural ecosystem of the network which again can kill sentient beings and of course the fact it was probably already classified technology to begin with. As far as the mention of Michael goes, I can fully accept that it's just something that wouldn't come up in conversation, Spock didn't need to recommend that everybody never mention her again. It's not like they can classify the mutiny that supposedly started the war with the Klingons so she does exist as a historical figure.
You seem not so keen on Discovery, what other things you liked or didn't like about it? Also was there something that Paul did in Season 2 that might've changed my opinion on him? Just wondering if I missed something! He seemed like more of the same but that wasn't a bad thing really. I probably thought Ethan Peck was a bit of just a standard Vulcan and not really spock-like. Would be good if he made more of an effort to do a Nimoy voice rather than a standard Vulcan voice, maybe his voice was a bit to deep or something. I can buy Zach Quinto's Spock because his history was changed by the Kelvin incident but Ethan Peck is supposed to be Leanord Nimoy for all intents and purposes. Overall he did a good enough job though.
I definitely think your right about Pike, I think both Bruce Greenwood's and Anson Mounts portrayals of him have really made him a valuable addition to the Trek canon. I say addition, but arguably his character kind of starts off the whole franchise!
I started watching TOS and funnily enough, my DVDs actually have the episodes in production order, so the where no man has gone pilot is actually first in my set. I have the DVDs that came with the magazine's rather than the box sets so I think mine is the only official release that has the episodes in production order instead of airdate.
One particular episode that has really stuck out to me is called The Enemy Within (I think). It's the one where Kirk gets split into two by the transporter. It has one really good line from Spock who muses on what it is to be human and how we actually need both the wicked and the virtuous sides of ourselves to be a whole and reasonable human being. I really liked that. It doesn't excuse wickedness but shows that it's a vital part of our being.
Less philosophically I also like the dog dressed up as a furry unicorn dragon! Especially when it gets split into two. The two halves reminded me of my min pins. One is vicious and snarls and barks a lot and the other is much more chilled out but they are both adorably cute š.
Of course my musings on this episode are kind of glossing over the attempted rape of Yeoman Janice Rand which really wouldn't have stood out (after all it was the primal Kirk that attempted it) if not for Spock's dismissive comment to her at the end of the episode. I can't remember what he said it but seemed really rude. I think if I was Kirk or Spock, I would've sat her down and explained that the bad Kirk's behaviour was unacceptable and that no matter what, she shouldn't let his rank intimidate her into doing something she didn't want to do.
This is kind of an arbitrary thought, but I think that Trek has kind of been split into four distinct eras. The Kirk-era including TOS and TAS, the next gen era, the berman-braga soap opera-ish era (albeit with high stakes) which id say includes DS9 voyager and enterprise and the abrams-kurtzman era which includes the Kelvin films and discovery. I guess I am dividing them up stylistically but I enjoy all four styles immensely.
I'll add more thoughts on the maquis when I get there but my main association with them is the character of Chakotay who I thought was the most unrealistic terrorist ever. He just had such a big and friendly face and voice. I do get that he had to put his personal vendettas aside quickly because of the situation Voyager was put in but I just didn't buy him as a terrorist.
Did you ever watch the Orville by any chance? If so then what did you think of it? I was reminded of it because of what you said about Wesley falling into some flowers. There is an equally mundane crime committed in an Orville episode that gets adjudicated by a thoroughly modern interpretation of so called justice.
@ralphdibny I think (if I may be so presumptuous) that some of your perspectives on Michael come from binge-watching a show which was originally broadcast weekly. Discovery has a tendency to revolve around unearned emotional payoff, and having a central character being played the way you describe helps sell sudden, left-field relationships and connections which haven't been allowed to develop naturally over the course of an entire season. I really liked Michael (despite binge-watching the second season) but I agree with your assessment all the same. She was constantly trying to sell stuff.
Michelle Yeoh has never let me down. I remember that moment you mention (and not just because it made me choke on my coffee) and I can't wait to see her in action again, in Star Trek or any other film or show, to be honest. She's always a delight to watch.
You're right about the desperate retcon at the end of the second season. I think that was always an inevitable necessity, especially when they connected Michael so strongly to Spock (seriously, I am so sick of Spock at the moment; that's not the fault of any actor, but rather lazy writers who just reach for the recognisable and add layer upon unnecessary layer to his character in order to "leave their mark" on the franchise or whatever). It was heavy-handed to placate the vocal fans, I think. Michael will become so much more interesting when she isn't just "Spock's forgotten sister" and is allowed to flourish as part of a crew which (finally!) has started to gel.
Discovery just isn't "my" Star Trek. That's totally okay, by the way; I'm not one of those aforementioned vocal fans who complains about a fresh perspective, and I can recognise and respect what the show was trying to do. It just isn't for me, I don't think, although I enjoyed the second season way more than the first (counter to your experience) because it seemed a bit more disposable. There was just a lot of ramping up to big fights, and I could enjoy it on a visceral level whilst rolling my eyes at all the retcons and desperate fan service. The final episode's extended battle was laughable, but boy did it look and sound superb. I'm a sucker for special effects extravaganzas, after all. I also felt like the human element was missing; I was raised on a diet of TNG and Voyager, so always had my pretty ships and nefarious villains balanced out with a moral message or a life lesson. That's what I felt Discovery lacked.
My problem with Paul is that, at least early on, he was reinforcing the idea that smart people are somehow allowed to be rude, arrogant jerks. He did soften a little and I appreciated that, but it was only a result of his unique mind and special experiences and it all just underscored my original issue with him. You can be as clever as you like, but it's no excuse for being insensitive and aloof the entire time (and yet, he still scored the dream job and perfect boyfriend, because Hollywood). I've known a couple of "Pauls" in my time, and... well, let's just say I don't know them any more.
Sorry, rant over!
Oh hey, I remember those DVD magazines! Wow, you collected the whole show that way? Good for spreading the cost, I suppose! Glad they retained production order, as it makes much more sense to watch it that way around (he says, having only watched the original series the once; most of my knowledge about it comes from obsessively reading The Star Trek Fact Files and three well-worn copies of The Star Trek Encyclopedia in my youth... ah, who am I kidding, I still read them!).
The first season episodes I remember being impressed by, however, included "The Corbomite Maneuver", "The Conscience of the King" and "Balance of Terror" (and you're right, there are a lot of great elements included in "The Enemy Within" even if Janice Rand's role in the episode doesn't sit right at all; it's such a shame that art was imitating her life in that respect). I also loved the pair of comedy episodes from the second season, "The Trouble with Tribbles" and "A Piece of the Action", because they were closer in tone to the camaraderie of the original series movies, which I also grew up with and absolutely adore. I think you're right about Star Trek having definite stylistic eras, though, and it'll be interesting to see where you end up drawing the lines as and when you progress with your re-watching of the whole thing.
I always call Chakotay by the name Q gave him, "Chuckles" and so I know what you mean! He does have some good episodes, but they're few and far between, unfortunately.
People keep recommending that I watch The Orville and I want to; it just hasn't arrived on a streaming service that I currently have access to, otherwise I'd have done so already. One day, perhaps when it's all finished, I'll buy the complete Blu-Ray collection and binge it (although the last time I did that with another sci-fi show, it was Babylon 5 and it didn't end well because... well, it didn't end!).
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger yeah maybe you're right about Michael and binging! The show is designed more like a binge show in comparison to previous Treks but obviously was released weekly. Again this will probably end up being one of my never finished projects but I might edit all the times Michael shakes her head slowly and emphatically into one video. (This is along with my long running desire to edit a video of all the times Riker puts his crotch in Data's face when he puts one leg up on the con!)
Ah yeah Georgiou is pretty cool! I think I had mixed feelings toward both her incarnations in season 1 but I really came to like her in season 2. Maybe because she was becoming more of a good guy or at least appeared to be! I forgot another favourite moment which is when they see the Klingon weeing up the wall and there are two streams! I don't know if they have two willies or if they have one willy with two holes.
Maybe you are right about Spock being over used. I was really ok with it in the Kelvin films because it was Leanord Nimoy and it made sense within continuity. Also Zach quinto made for a good albeit slightly different (due to timeline changes) young spock. I do wonder who will be the strong leader archetype in season 3 that Lorca and Pike filled in previous seasons. I guess Saru would make sense but I have a feeling they will probably bring in a new character, maybe that guy who was in the Calypso short trek or the regular Lorca who was presumed dead in the mirror universe. Though the latter would be awfully convenient if he made it through interphasic space all the way to 900 years in the future without going mad. Oh yeah I also loved that final battle in the final episode! I thought it was a brilliant episode basically to the point where Michael started travelling back to send the signals where it then became a box ticking exercise to explain both their own narrative and also Discovery's place in the larger canon.
I think I quite like, or at least used to like the arrogant but hyper intelligent characters in shows and films. Stuff like House, the fictionalised Mark Zuckerberg in the social network, the various Sherlock Holmes, and even Axel Foley in Beverly Hills cop 1+2 (3 was crap, just a kids movie with self indulgent cameos that forgot why Axel was such a brilliant character in the first 2 films). I always envisioned a cross over film that brought all these characters together to save the day š¤¦š»āāļøš! Well at least Dr House, Jesse Eisenberg's Mark Zuckerberg and Axel Foley, I forgot who else was in my dream team. I probably wouldn't like these people in real life and also if the characters they treat like crap were real people I would probably feel bad instead of finding it funny and entertaining because it is fiction.
I think we've had a similar discussion about these "god's gift" people in real life before, if not specifically the supposedly intelligent kind and I do agree that I really don't like them in real life. I generally cease to know a lot of people who are like that, either quickly when I recognise it or in a few cases, quite shamefully, after a long time. (They have a way of getting into your head that allows them to out stay their welcome.) I've even been prone to being like that when I was younger (late teens, early twenties) you know, before life kicks you in the teeth and makes you realise you are nothing special.
Back to discovery, i think Paul changed very quickly. I wonder if it was a bit because the early episodes were from Michael's point of view and being a social pariah at the time affected people's reactions to her, including Paul's. I seem to remember after this point there was only one instance where Paul was an unreasonable dingus and it was when he was coming down from his mushroom trip (after the la de da everything is amazing phase) and he was mean to Tilly.
Ah nah I didn't collect them all, I bought them all off eBay for a reasonable price! I didn't have a blu ray player and I wanted to watch it more or less as it was originally intended and at the time the only available TOS on dvd was the "remastered" versions which I've heard are not as egregious as the Star Wars remasters but I still wasn't interested in them. The blu rays had both remastered and standard but I didn't have a player so the best option was the magazine DVDs which I believe have a previous remaster on them. They're cleaned up nice but still retain the original effects, backgrounds, mattes and also the graininess and other imperfections from making it on film in the late 60s. I also have next gen in this way (from eBay) but just because it was cheaper to buy them in that instance. My shelf doesn't thank me for it though, I recently built an extended shelf to hold them all and keep the picture created by the spines in one piece! Luckily I have the rather compact retail releases of Voyager and DS9!
I've seen all those season 1 episodes of TOS you've mentioned now and they are all indeed very good ones! I had a Google about Grace Lee Whitney and I had no idea that she was a victim of sexual assault and was also written out of the show after the first 8 episodes (which I've now passed). I was thinking how good she was in the show, like her subdued but noticeable reactions and facial expressions are really realistic compared to the over the top performances given by other actors. It was pointed out to me that these subtle nuances might not have been noticed when it was broadcast in crap quality on TV and I might only be picking up on them because I'm watching a really cleaned up DVD version. One of the episodes I watched last night, "Miri" had Janice showing sympathy to a sick and then quickly deceased person on a planet but she manages to show her sympathy with a couple of mouth movements in the background of a shot which stood out more to me than the rest of the main cast in the same scene. It is kind of weird as well how little Scotty, Uhura and Sulu are actually in these episodes. Like sometimes they're not even in it at all. I'm guessing the bridge crew normalises a bit by Season 2 when Chekhov joins. It is reminding me a bit of the largely mute bridge crew of Discovery season 1!
I really like The Orville but I can see it being a bit divisive for Trek fans. It's weird because it's a lot more like next gen than the concurrently released Discovery. But it is kind of more realistic than next gen because, barring the upward moral shift of society which is still present in the Orville, it's a bit more like if everyday people from current times worked on a star ship. Like the every day attitudes to work, fun, banter and relationships haven't changed from today but the moral attitudes have got better if that makes sense. So it kind of hits home quite well in my opinion but it also really cleverly deals with current topics in the sci fi setting. I think it's also probably best to remember that it's not a comedy as you go into it. Sure it's funny at times, but it's nothing like family guy, American dad or the Cleveland show. Though thinking about it now there is a really funny use of their version of the holodeck š which is used to drive home a poignant and sad part of a characters life. I'm glad Seth MacFarlane got to make it though as he is obviously a huge fan of Trek especially after his brief appearances in Enterprise!
Edit: I forgot to say this earlier but I will add, with regards to Paul, that there is a certain kind of rudeness that I don't mind/actually kind of like in real life. It's like a natural rudeness possibly from not knowing any better, not just rudeness for the sake of it. There is a fine line between it being likeable an unlikeable though, for example an unknowingly rude person could be fun and playful in that way and learn from their experience without necessarily becoming more polite but it would just be evident from them doing the right thing when it comes down to a serious decision. On the other hand somebody who fails to recognise genuine companionship as well as their own rudeness could be dangerous if put into an authoritative position because they may lack the awareness to make the right decision. So it's a bit of a fine line! In fiction, my point could be illustrated by someone like T'Pol who is rude but kind of like a loveable rude. She is also capable of making command decisions. I struggle to think of a character who is on the other side of the fine line right now due to the late hour, but I do know a few in real life!
@ralphdibny Somebody nearly beat you to it, with regards that Riker video you've always wanted to make, although theirs is a celebration of his... let's say, "unique approach" to chairs!
I will admit, my love for Georgiou is purely down to the casting. I read somewhere that Michelle Yeoh has some say over the character's quirks and attitude, which has given her a lot more personality than some of the other characters. That's the thing about casting "a name" in something. I don't usually have this problem with Star Trek (although I had watched plenty of Quantum Leap as a kid, long before Scott Bakula was cast as Captain Archer) but often wind up liking Trek alumni in roles they take later. I was never an X-Men fan, for example, but Patrick Stewart bridged that gap for me pretty quickly.
Yeah, the Kelvin Timeline gets a pass because Hollywood, and the whole reboot angle, but I thought Discovery was a Spock too far (especially when the early trailers boasted "new aliens, new worlds, new characters" and then it just turned out to be Klingons, Spock and Section 31 all over again). I reckon it'll be Saru's time to shine in the third season, for sure. It feels overdue at this point.
I think we have touched upon such personalities before, yeah. You're right in your edit, as well, when you talk about the fine line between "loveable rude" and "arrogant rude" and the example of T'Pol is spot on. I think it's the element of dismissiveness which is the clincher. T'Pol might silently raise an eyebrow, but she'd never talk down to anybody she deemed stupid (same for Seven of Nine, who'd frown at a stupid question and counter it with a question of her own, basically "Why are you asking that?" and she'd then be interested in the answer). Off the top of my head, I'd say Jellico would be an example of the other side of the coin. He was a jerk, thought he knew best, and subsequently made everybody around him miserable. He dressed it up in the trappings of command, but it was all BS and bluster and therefore completely unnecessary.
From the non-Trek examples, I'm only familiar with House but you're right, he's kinda curmudgeonly in his approach, and you get the sense that he can take as good as he gives. It's all about the pushback; if you can fire off a sarcastic retort to somebody's inadvertent rudeness and trigger some banter, then it's kinda okay. The jerks who rush to shut you down, or become desperate to prove you wrong and somehow "win" the exchange? They're the ones to avoid.
Interesting thoughts on Paul. I do need to re-watch all of Discovery at some point, having only seen each season the once. I'll keep what you've said in mind when you do (when I watched the first season, it was weekly at launch and I'd recently finished a hype-building marathon of Voyager, The Next Generation and Enterprise, so I did suffer a bit of transitional shock).
Ah, gotcha. I don't mind admitting that I'm a bit of a special effects snob, so I could only bring myself to watch the original series remastered. They're totally faithful, absolutely nothing on the level of the Star Wars special editions, but I can understand wanting to see the "original" original (particularly since, you're right, there's a pleasing uniformity to a standard transfer which hides some of the wonky effects and set shortcomings; tiny errors are much more noticeable in HD, that's for sure). I've managed to keep my Star Trek shelf pretty compact, but only because I haven't been buying the newest releases. That and I managed to get a very fancy release of the first ten movies!
It's such a shame about Grace Lee Whitney. Had things gone differently, she might've been a mainstay of the cast throughout, and balanced things out a little better. You're right about all the nuance she gave her performance; I'd noticed that about her as well. I love that she was able to make a comeback in some of the movies, and for "Flashback" (VGR).
They kept swapping the bridge crew out for random officers-of-the-week, yeah! And there's a big chunk of episodes where George Takei had basically left the show. It's so random!
Your take on The Orville is exactly why I'm interested in it. From what I gather, it's Seth McFarlane's love letter to the Berman Era of Star Trek, which is why critics dismissed it as regressive and fans adored it as a nostalgic treat. So many people expected him to deliver "live-action Family Guy in space" and when it wasn't, they were either disappointed or relieved. I certainly won't expect a comedy, any more than most shows have occasional comedic moments. Since it's the moral element which I feel has been lacking from Discovery in particular, I'll probably think quite highly of it! Thanks!
Speaking of, and to neatly bookend this post with Riker's eternal struggle to sit down properly, I also found this clip from a Family Guy mobile game and it made me laugh!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger haha that family guy game clip is brilliant but I'm glad I've never played it! After years of addiction to Simpsons tapped out and animal crossing pocket camp that are thankfully now behind me, I am incredibly weary of any free to play mobile games!
I love the X men films, all of them, even the rubbish ones! There's actually a novel called planet X that is a crossover between next gen and X men which is quite fun though I think it came out before pat Stewart was cast as Xavier. It's a sequel to a one shot comic that was a crossover between X men and TOS. They're quite fun if you read them in the voices of the X men cartoon and trek shows (obviously with pat Stewart's voice standing in for the animated Xavier voice!)
Both Seven and T'pol are naievably rude but it's part of what makes their personality so loveable, they are two of my favourite characters for sure! Yeah I think at the end of the day it's about what the two people in the conversation want, ive been on both sides of the coin and really the only solution is to make clear that you are not comfortable with certain things and hope it gets left at that. Obviously it doesn't always get left at that which is why people are apprehensive to voice their boundaries. There's people I think are equally good friends but there is stuff I'd say to one of them I wouldn't dream of saying to the other, I guess because everyone's different. In the same way if certain people talked to me badly I'd take it much worse than if somebody else said the exact same thing. Life's weird lol but I guess that's why we have brains, so we can work this stuff out.
I think I might be an SFX snob too but in a different way. I really love old effects because they are way less generic than the modern tendency to CGI everything. There's loads of types of animation and effects that got used in live action film and TV like stop motion, puppets, animatronics, rotoscoping, editing tricks and even CGI itself before solely CGI just took over everything. So I do like to see the effects of the time. It's fun to try and work out how they pulled it off too.
I've finished all 29 episodes (excluding the cage) of season one now. That's a lot of episodes at 48 minutes each (especially to binge), some bits have been a slog but so many are just brilliant episodes. There's some great moments like when Kirk thought Spock was giving him a back massage and he was getting really into it until he realised it was a female Yeoman and he got all weird and uncomfortable about it. I have no idea why it's more OK for Spock to be doing it but it made me laugh. There's another bit where Spock just strolls up to a guard like a bad ass and distracts him by telling him there is a "multi legged animal" on his shoulder before knocking him out with a nerve pinch. There's more great philosophy about the stagnation of society and how people need to have struggle in order to strive. The early Klingons are just brilliant. Space Seed is a really good episode which is kind of weird because I've always found Wrath of Khan to be a bit of a boring movie. I'm looking forward to watching it again to see if my opinion has changed on it. I think I've always thought Space Seed is way better than it's sequel though.
It's probably easier to note the one episode I didn't like. I can't remember what it was called but it had a guy with a stringy beard called Lazarus who was mad and obsessed with finding his (unknown to him) anti matter universe counterpart. I don't know what it was exactly but the episode was just pretty boring and poorly paced with confusing SFX.
Another really good episode is the city on the edge of forever where a giant gate sends them into the past to more or less make sure history takes place as it should. It features Kirk falling in love with a woman who needs to die in order for history to survive. What is really interesting about it is it plays the song Goodnight Sweetheart and also uses lots of riffs from it in the score for the whole episode. Obviously that was the name and theme tune of the Nicholas Lyndhurst sitcom that had used a very similar premise for its storyline. I tried to look up if the show was inspired by this episode of Trek but turned up zilch.
I could go on for ages about how and why lots of these episodes are so great but I will refrain. I think I got a bit distracted by the odd bits of inconsequential sexism earlier in the show but it has basically dropped all that. I also forgot how much of a renegade Spock can be, as in the Menagerie. Old Spock in the Kelvin films is so pious and quite obviously trying to do the right thing that you kind of forget how impulsive he could be when he was young. It kind of puts the Discovery era Spock into better perspective.
@ralphdibny Agreed, free-to-play mobile gaming is evil. I got hooked on Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes for a while and realised I should quit when I started structuring my day around when the free currency timers would refresh themselves. Nightmare!
I think the only X-Men film I've actively disliked is Dark Phoenix. The rest are really cool and yeah, I think I saw the cover for that comic once!
There's an odd kind of adorability about those characters, and others (in the same way Data would occasionally say something horrific because he didn't know any better). And I respect your approach in tailoring your conversations depending on who you're speaking to; I do the same, not in a fake or ingratiating way, but more just to ensure that I'm not upsetting the apple cart. It gets easier the more you get to know people, which is why work environments are a minefield, because you only get to see the professional front those around you choose to project.
But then I guess the same could be said about message boards. There's a process of checkpoints before you post a reply. Everybody here seems really nice, and I like to think I do as well, but I'm sure some of us would fall out if we were socialising in person!
I can appreciate old special effects, for sure. I was actually glad that they didn't use CGI ships in the remastered Blu-Rays for The Next Generation, because its model-work was absolutely first rate for a late-80s television show. I think, for me, I just get upset when a shoddy effect shatters my immersion. If I can still look at something and say "yeah, I believe that" then I'm happy for it to stay, no matter what kind of effect it may be. I'd never crowbar CGI in for the sake of it.
You'll be well into the second season by now, which means you've probably seen my all-time favourite episode of the original series, "The Doomsday Machine" (which really does benefit from the new ship shots, as the Enterprise battles the Planet Killer). I keep forgetting about that whole Kirk / Spock massage scene, but then I suppose those two did spawn the entire "slash" scene all by themselves, so there had to be some kind of... well, exactly! And I'm not the biggest fan of The Wrath of Khan either. So many wax lyrical about it, but I dislike its militaristic atmosphere and basic story; alas, that might've made me dislike "Space Seed" when I finally saw it, but it was still interesting to watch.
No show is perfect. Wait until you re-watch "Code of Honour" (TNG). You'll be begging for a return to easily-overlooked moments of inconsequential sexism!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger Code of Honour and The Child somewhat marred my experience of watching early TNG. I really should get back to binging it, Iāve just not had the time recently!
@nessisonett I give "The Child" a pass because it introduces Pulaski (who I adore) but you're right, it isn't the show's finest hour. That's what you get for repurposing old Phase II scripts!
Where did you leave off, out of curiosity? Was it after "The Child" or did you get further?
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger I watched it there. I... really didnāt miss much, did I? Dear lord, they really must have been strapped for cash and time to make that flaccid hour of TV!
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