Topic: User Impressions/Reviews Thread

Sly 2: Band of Thieves, played the Vita version. I got 100% in the game, and the Platinum trophy.

This game was a big step up from Sly 1. It's a lot more open than the first game. Whereas Sly 1 had small hub areas leading to individual levels, Sly 2 has larger, more open areas for each chapter.

There's much more variety in this game as well. Most of Sly 1 had Sly collecting a key from each level in order to unlock something. But in Sly 2, chapters generally involves a heist of some kind. Missions will involve preparing for the heist, such as gathering intel, stealing something that's needed for it, or sabotaging something. The occasional hacking minigame, turret and vehicle missions also help to mix things up. Once Sly and the gang have prepared for a heist, they then get to put their dramatic plan into action.

The game does a good job at making the player feel like they're playing as a thief. Sly will tiptoe past guards, avoid alarm systems, and can also pickpocket the enemies. Guards holding spotlights are best avoided, or taken out stealthily from behind. Sly has a variety of means to avoid guards, such as climbing up lamp posts and running across the rooftops.

One thing that's not obvious at first is that enemies will often have valuable items as well as money. These items can be sold for quite a bit of money if you can pickpocket them. It's easy to miss this feature entirely, as not all enemies carry anything of interest. Generally guards with glowing pockets have something worth taking. I completely missed this until I was going for the last few trophies I missed, since it's much quicker to just stealth kill enemies instead of pickpocketing. Once I knew about this, it became fun to steal from everyone to see what they had.

Sly also has the help from his buddies Bentley and Murray. They can be controlled by the player, and have their own missions as well. Bentley is the brains of the team, and can use bombs. Murray is the strong one, being best at a fight. These two have some fun missions, but it's not so fun to nagivate the open areas with them. They don't have access to Sly's stealth moves, so they can't take a shortcut climbing up poles or swinging across gaps for instance.

Exploration of the open areas is encouraged by the clue bottles. Each chapter has 30 bottles outside somewhere, and finding them all will allow Bentley to solve the combination on that chapter's safe. It was fun to hunt down those bottles, and isn't too tedious to find them all. Bottles emit a noise, making it much easier to pinpoint the last few missing bottles. If you don't care for finding collectables, then it's worth mentioning that the Platinum trophy only requires finding all the bottles in any one chapter, meaning most of the bottles can be ignored.

So overall, the game is a lot of fun. I enjoyed my time with it.

@RogerRoger Cheers. Not a fan of peppy J-Pop? 😂 I think it’s quite nicely juxtaposed against the backdrop of the boss battle and makes the whole thing even more bonkers. Yeah, I already know about the second half of The Phantom Pain. I don’t think it would retrospectively diminish the tedium of Peace Walker’s final chapter though. It is a shame that it happened two games in a row - and to a much higher degree with TPP! MGS4 worked as such an incredible send off for the franchise.

@crimsontadpoles Brill review! Sly 2 is a very enjoyable game. Sly himself controls really nicely and I enjoyed exploring the larger levels. Bentley’s sections were sometimes a bit frustrating as he’s so frail.

@mookysam It's one of the catchier examples of its genre, I'll give it that, but it's not exactly what I instinctively start to hum whenever I think of Peace Walker, no.

Then again, my favourite track from the game isn't exactly hummable, either.

Can't wait to see what you make of MGSV, particularly since you're going in with your expectations slightly tempered by the game's post-release reputation. I think it'll actually help. There are so many great moments you've got to look forward to; I'm slightly jealous!

Good posts, folks.

@mookysam I've debated playing Peace Walker before, but usually ended up avoiding it because I've heard it has co-op-centric features, and didn't want a gimped experience. If it's perfectly fine to play solo, though, I'll probably go for it eventually. A LOT of Ground Zeroes' impact felt like it was lost on me, since it seemed to center around characters and a continuity established in that game.

@crimsontadpoles Is there any continuity between Sly Cooper 1 and 2? If not, I might jump in with the second one. I seem to hear it being praised a lot, but I didn't even know it was a thing until recently.

@Ralizah Peace Walker does have co-op missions, although I’m unsure if it’s a mode completely separate from the campaign as I never touched them. The whole story is very playable in single player and doesn’t feel like it needs two people to enjoy the full experience.

@mookysam Good to hear. I was afraid it was a Monster Hunter situation where it's possible to complete it sp, but the game feels more like it's designed with multiple people in mind, which can affect mechanical balance and the difficulty overall.

@Ralizah Yes, Sly Cooper 2 does carry on from Sly 1. However, I think it would be fine to dive straight into the second game if you wanted. Sly 2 does give a good summary of anything relevant that happened in Sly 1. Plus the narratives in these games aren't exactly complex affairs. So I don't think you'd miss much from jumping straight into the second game.

Ok, so after much much time (more on that later), I finally finished The Last Of Us 2. I've had a few days to digest the game and think about my feelings and of course, this is really difficult to do without having any spoilers and as someone who gets annoyed with people assuming that a game that has been out more than a week is ripe for spoilers and given that it took me nearly a month to complete, I will be careful. I will give an overview of the game and gameplay and then spoiler tag sections for story elements. I'll not specifically give plot details but you honestly can't discuss the game without giving some secrets away. If you want to know nothing, don't read on.

So first off, full disclosure, I love The Last of Us (Part 1 or whatever it is now). My friends have begged me to play it and was the reason I got a PS4 having been an MS person with the 360 and missing it on PS3. I bought it, played it, then immediately played it straight through again. I bought the soundtrack. I tried to name my second born Ellie (wife was having none of it - she also said no to Joel, Giraffe and Clicker). As a parent with a small child, I thought the story was as close to gaming perfection as you could get. The ending is iconic and I remember musing on here that I wished there would never be a sequel because whatever you do, it cannot live up to ambiguity and implications of that ending. I liken it to the Matrix - that sets up something where you use your imagination - how will Neo stop the machines, why is he the chosen one etc. Then when you try to explain something mythic, it gets mundane and you end up with an old man using long words at the end.

I knew that at the outset that it was not going to be possible for a sequel to do the same thing twice and to be exactly what I wanted it to be so I have tried to think about The Last of Us Part 2 as its own beast.

So how do I feel about the game?

Well, I think it is impossible not to admit that this is a very good game. It is beautiful, it runs perfectly. The gameplay is satisfying on the whole, the mechanics from the first are improved, the music, acting, UI etc. all top notch. I think anyone review bombing the game is stupid because, let's face it, this isn't a rushed or shoddy game. It set out to do something and it executed it very well.

That isn't to say though that I don't have problems with the game that hold it back from greatness compared to the original. I don't like scores or anything but this is not, in my mind, a 10/10 game in terms of perfection. It has some realy issues that run as a fault line through the experience.

The first is length. I genuinely feel this game outstayed its welcome which is rather sad. The story is well paced but the gameply loop becomes very very familiar because of the length of the story. I spent 30 hours on the game, playing at normal difficulty and playing in a manner that I felt the game wanted me to play - stealth for the majority, heavy exploration with moments of weapon use etc. I was cautious in it so I guess I could have got through quicker but with resources scattered, you sort of do need to explore and take your time to really get a handle on the environments. I can't fault the combat encounters themselves, they are tense, brutal, exciting. My issue is the length of them. I felt that due to the length, it fell into a familar routine. You have an objective, getting there means going from one open (ish) place to another, killing everything, exploring everywhere, move on. Occasionally there are cut scenes or dialogue options to expand story and character but actually, they are almost few and far between given the amount of areas. There were a few times when I thought, ah something is going to happen and then find another two areas to clear. It just becomes quite systematic, combat encounter, use a few resources, explore and replenish, move on etc. This also affects the other major element that is controversial - the violence. This is a horrendously violent game and I won't get into the argument of whether it is justifiying or gloryfying but with the length of the game, you are no longer shocked by it when you get to the end. You'll shank someone and no longer be appalled. Again, this could be argued it is a part of the game (violence becomes acceptable) but it lessens the impact.

So with length, it becomes hard not to talk about story. Without going into spoilers, I feel that the story has a point - it is well thought out, it isn't random and certainly has a thematic and narrative force behind it. That said, it isn't as satisfying as I had hoped and also, maybe controversially, isn't as clever and as thought out as it thinks it is.

So overall, my rambles are at an end. The Last of Us 2 is a very good game but not perfect and, I think, with a story that was not bad but thematically didn't work for me and ultimately, will not be something that people will be overnalysing for years to come in the way the first game did. Does that mean it failed? Well no, lightning can't always strike twice. My guess is that once the hype and controversy has calmed down, this will be one of those games that people evaluate on its own merits and say, pretty great but not a classic.

@Rudy_Manchego Nice. Great write-up. This is the sort of critical writing I enjoy reading.

I was pretty shocked when I heard how long the game was, considering how short ND experiences typically are. Setpiece-heavy cinematic experiences and horror games both tend to be more effective when they're shorter. So it doesn't surprise me to hear that you thought the experience was too dragged out overall.

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

@Rudy_Manchego Great review sir! I had similar issues with the pacing and the length of the game. There were a few sections where I was struggling a bit, but the game introduced a new enemy or had an awesome section (like the hotel or hospital) just at the right moment to keep my interest piqued. When I look back at the game I struggle to find what they would cut though, maybe a few of the encounters with the WLF or Seraphites, but I'm not sure if that would have reduced the overall length by that much.

@Rudy_Manchego Brill review dude! It’s interesting to see a more critical viewpoint now we’re removed from the initial launch buzz. Although I haven’t played it myself I did watch much of it be played, which was unavoidable as it was on the living room telly. To me it did seem a little bloated but there were certainly aspects I found very interesting. Largely what Naughty Dog did with that other character. It contrasts quite well with Ellie’s story, especially as there are some similarities between the character’s initial revenge motivations. I actually came to prefer her by the end of the game and rather disliked what Ellie had become.

It’s interesting that you bring up the ludonarrative dissonance as it is still a problem with so many games. Gameplay loops haven’t yet caught up to the strong narratives that underpin the whole experience, which at times can be very jarring. It’s especially an issue with that other famous Naughty Dog series. In those you are playing a “good” guy who is essentially a mass murderer. Then in cutscenes - particularly in Uncharted 4 - he is suddenly unable to kill or even injure someone because his conscience suddenly springs to life.

Anyway, I’m glad I watched so much of it be played as I now think I’d quite like to experience it myself and fill in the gaps that I missed. I was convinced I wouldn’t like the game and that the bleakness and violence would trigger me (my mental health has not been good recently), but it wasn’t nearly as bad as I’d built it up to be.

Yeah, it's a long game, but at the same time I was kinda sad it was over. I'll happily play more of it. However, the length did surprise me, since I was expected something similar to the first game. It's not long for a AAA game, but it is a lot longer than the original.

At the same time I'm kinda surprised they managed to keep the quality up and running throughout the whole game.

@Octane The first game definitely felt rushed towards the end to me. I’d have happily taken another 2 or 3 hours that expanded the route from the Winter section to Salt Lake City. If the second one’s longer then that’s ok because it just means we get more content for our money.

@nessisonett Yeah, the fourth section was definitely the shortest.

I also understand the criticism about part 2 being too long, because I thought it was going to end long before it actually ended. And that happened two or three times I think. But hey, I got to play more, so it was all fine by me.

TLOU Part 2 is as if the Spring section is just as long as the rest of the game, but then after the hospital you get to track back all the way to Jackson, adding another 4 hours. And when you get home they have another quest for you, and then you get redirected to another location, and then it sorta ends.

@Ralizah Thanks for the kind words and yes, I believe you are absolutely right when it comes to length and tension/horror. It is very hard to stretch out tension and anxiety over a large period of time. To put it this way, there are only so many times you can open a door or walk into a room and get attacked by a hidden assailant before you stop being nervous and tense and just accept it is going to happen and I felt this a lot in this game.

@JohnnyShoulder Thanking you! From a story perspective, I don't think they necessarily needed to cut much of that, but possibly just reduced some of the gameplay sections... for example, I think in the first half there is a sequence where you go through 2-3 buildings full of infected and the first was tense and then it just felt repetetive. It is interesting you mention the Hotel and Hospital sections as without a doubt, ND can craft some amazing sequences but again, it felt few and far between maybe.

@mookysam Thanks and yes I agree that I liked the secondary character and actually, that story made more sense for me. Something I found was that I didn't quite get or feel Ellie's quest for revenge, particulaly as the game went on, even into the climax, whereas I did feel it for Abby because of what life had dealt her. No one was blameless, they both make bad decisions but somehow her story clicked more. . Interesting you mention mental health, I won't lie, this game really did affect my mood, possibly because of the pure bleakness. There isn't really any warmth, unlike the first, and it is really a series of escalations of horribleness and I felt worse coming away from play sessions.

@Octane @nessisonett In terms of game length, it depends on the game and the variety you can add in. I thought the gameplay started to get repetetive and as Octane says, there are points when the story feels like it is going to end and then continues and it means you prepare for a finale that doesn't come and it breaks the flow.

I feel I am being slightly critical as again, very good game but I think these flaws hold it back from being that classic of the generation that I have seen some hail it. However, my main objections are very personalised, especially with story and that is very subjective.

@Rudy_Manchego Thanks, man for a excellent and thoughtful break down. It’s exactly what I’m looking for as I try to decide whether to spend my precious game time and money on this. I’ve deftly avoided the spoilers as you’ve so kindly and conscientiously hidden for those of us who haven’t played it yet. I’m still torn about whether to try it, but your experience has me a little closer to trying it, since I know better what to expect now.
I do have a question about the violence that mention in your review. It’s been mentioned a few times in other reviews, but can you give me some examples? Honestly, the disturbing gratuitous nature of the violence is one of my concerns. One of the early trailers had the images of disemboweling a person alive in a torture sense and that was really off-putting to me. Do you have a comparison game that it would be similar to as far as the gore and violence? For reference — I just finished Resident Evil where you blow zombie heads off with a shotgun, one of my favorite games is Bloodborne, and I adored the first TLoU. So violence and gore I can handle. But I’m not interested in wanton and superfluous gore and suffering, even if it makes narrative sense. That and the obvious affect it has had on some people’s mental health are my main concerns. I have no issue or concerns with controversial or “social justice” narrative. That part I’m actually quite wanting to experience. But the excessive and disproportionate human suffering is worrying me. Do you think the story could have carried the full impact without showing so much indiscriminate violence? I know, hard to say without spoilers, but just in general what do you think?

@Th3solution Hey thanks for the write up. Hmm how to describe the violence and it is a good question. I would be interested to see other peoples views as well as my own. In terms of gameplay, the attention to detail is greater than that in the original game. That game is violent, in the sense that there is a weight to what is being done. However, in this game, the animations and actions are more detailed. I would not state that there is more gore per se in the gameplay sections... but there is so much more detail added to the kills and actions. An example is that you may grab an unsuspecting enemy, you would tell them to be quiet and then you may cut their throat with a knife or choke them. It is not gory but the actions and sounds are clear about what you are doing.

The cut scenes and story moments however - well, I think there is nothing necessarily worse than what you saw in the early trailer but I would say that throughout, there is a lot of violence and the brutality of that violence is part of the story. I suppose the way I would put all the violence of the game is that it is not without consequence. Grabbing someone and hurting them doesn't make them explode in coins or anything - they suffer.

It is another good question of whether the game needed this from a story sense. In some ways, yes but only because of the story they chose to tell and as I think I may have mentioned in the review, it is where I found the story and the gameplay at odds because the narrative consequence didn't seem to relate to the gameplay sections. Arguably, does any game need that kind of accuracy when it comes to causing harm to others? No, I don't think so. At the same time, the violence is not there to be gratiutious for gratuity's sake (this isn't a Manhunt) but it is still deliberate.

@Rudy_Manchego Okay, thanks. That helps. It probably wouldn’t bother me too much. It does concern me that games are pushing more and more realism and every phase of new games seems to want to out-do the last as far is grittiness and intensity. Which is fine, I guess, but at some point it threatens to become just too much. I’m reminded of Season 7 of The Walking Dead (which I never saw because I lost interest in the show long before that) that caused outrage when they pushed the violence and brutality too far. Here we have a show that has displayed massive amounts of gore, savagery, and violence for 6 seasons and then finally crescendoed to the point that much of the fan base (and some of the actors apparently) just felt they went too far.
With Cyberpunk also looking like it is going to push the envelope, I wonder if gaming will get to that point. Anyway, that’s another topic entirely, but we all have our own ‘set-point’ that we are personally comfortable with and so I was just wondering if TLoU2 reaches that for me. I don’t think so, if the trailer footage is about as far as it goes.

@Th3solution I believe the part you mention was part of the gameplay trailer from E3 2018(?). That section is actually still in the game, but relocated to another part in the level, and it isn't a cut-scene. It happens during gameplay and it's really difficult to see what's going on. The only reason I knew what was going on was because I recognised the level from that trailer.

@Th3solution Yes it is true and I think Jim Sterling did a video on this element which is the impact it has on developers having to research it. Ultimately, I'd argue that there is a sliding scale of depictions of violence. A film, for example, that shows very realistic violence in a serious context and does so for a justifiable reason is different from say, John Wick. Let's face it, if John Wick had realistic violence in it, it would cease to look 'cool' and become something truly horrific - you would not root for him at all.

It is harder to say that about games when violence is often the way that you interact with the world and it is always over the top. I mean, even in TLOU (1 and 2), I mean the charactes murder literally hundreds of people. Maybe that is why it is called The Last Of Us. Largely, combat is meant to be satisying and to a large part, fun. If it become realistic and unpleasant and is an unavoidable part of the game, then you cease playing a fun game and move to a murder simulator. I'd say TLOU2 treads a line but I would agree, we don't need boundary pushing. If I shoot someone in a FPS, do I need to have realistic gore and screams of agony? I think not.