@Pizzamorg Well, you are either an alternate account for @LN78 or there’s some consensus to what you say because two of you have similar sounding opinions. 😄 But seriously, it’s understandable. There’s actually several people who have criticized the writing.
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Given the somewhat necessary evil of this moment to allow a second game a reason to exist, maybe if I had some distance between me and Part 1 I would have less issues with this and take it more on its value of function, rather than being some great moment for the story.
However, Part 1 is so fresh in mind, so I can't help but notice all the flaws in the execution of this, both in the context of Part 1 and also just in the context of the fact that it is poorly written in general.
@Pizzamorg I have to massively disagree that the part 2 is poorly written, people not liking the outcome has lead to a massive cry of poor writing and a cheap shot at an easy revenge story. I was as traumatised as anyone when the scene in question happened but poor writing and shock value for just shock value sake are not exactly what Naughty Dog where aiming for, the whole point as you explained earlier how Joel looked like A monster in the recap was that is exactly how Abby seen it, she doesn't know Joel so why would she think he is this Hero.
I totally understand that everyone felt close to Joel and Ellie, we only spent an entire game forming their bond and getting them through some pretty impossible situations so that attachment to suddenly be ripped from you is in my opinion a stroke of genius but as @Th3solution eluded too its almost as wonderful that we all see something different and that's what's so good about gaming there's something for everyone.
@Pizzamorg I have to massively disagree that the part 2 is poorly written, people not liking the outcome has lead to a massive cry of poor writing and a cheap shot at an easy revenge story. I was as traumatised as anyone when the scene in question happened but poor writing and shock value for just shock value sake are not exactly what Naughty Dog where aiming for, the whole point as you explained earlier how Joel looked like A monster in the recap was that is exactly how Abby seen it, she doesn't know Joel so why would she think he is this Hero.
I totally understand that everyone felt close to Joel and Ellie, we only spent an entire game forming their bond and getting them through some pretty impossible situations so that attachment to suddenly be ripped from you is in my opinion a stroke of genius but as @Th3solution eluded too its almost as wonderful that we all see something different and that's what's so good about gaming there's something for everyone.
I haven't got to the end yet, so I can't say.
In regards to your justification around the reframing of Part 1's ending, this would have been fine if this was Abby recounting this to one of her group. Spinning the story like some evil man just walked into the hospital and started blasting while laughing maniacally to himself.
But that wasn't the scene. This was Joel recounting to his own Brother. And sure, you could make the reading that Joel is carrying a lot of guilt about this so he twists the story in his own retelling, making himself seem more evil and violent than he was, because this is how he feels.
But if that is the intention, that isn't conveyed well by the game to the audience. Well it isn't conveyed at all. And if that is the intention, then it requires the audience to do the heavy lifting to connect the dots here, which to me still makes the writing bad.
@Pizzamorg I am interested in whether your thoughts evolve throughout the game or not, if you decide to continue. And it’s no spoiler to say that I really have no idea how you’ll get along with the middle and late game. Some people completely stop playing the game at the point you are currently, which is fine and if you feel strongly then it might salvage your opinions of the franchise to abort now. To continue the correlation, I ended up dropping Witcher 3, and I’m certain I’d grow accustomed to the aspects I disliked in the first 6-8 hours that I played it. It’s not an exact 1:1 parallel with your situation, but I guess I’m just saying that a game’s lofty reputation doesn’t mean you have to suffer through it if it feels a waste of time… Although I do have a little dangling FOMO on W3 and plan to try the PS5 version some day. But I digress…
Anyways, I’ll refrain from saying whether things get better or worse regarding these writing issues in Part 2, but should you persevere, at least the game’s pretty to look at. 😅
I deffo fully intend to finish the game @Th3solution, even if I am absolutely hating every second of it by some point, I feel like I need to see it through to the end. I'm very much of the opinion that Part 1 still exists, so if this absolutely stinks, it won't make me feel less about Part 1, which is one of my favourite games ever.
If need be, I will just huff on that copium and just pretend Part 2 doesn't exist. They certainly make that easy for you at least, as so far it feels so far removed from Part 1, I can easily treat it as some sort of Elseworlds story. In the main timeline Joel and Ellie moved to Tommy's settlement and lived happily ever after.
@Pizzamorg Yeah, my suggestion would be to endure and press ahead, so I support your unwavering commitment to see it through. The game is pretty long however, comparatively speaking. Maybe twice the length of P1. Perhaps future story beats and gameplay elements will win you over, but there are no guarantees. 🤐 Even though I am big fan of the game, there were many times it was hard to play, if that makes sense.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Pizzamorg The only real thing that Part II ends up doing, at least for me, is chip away at the impact of the end of Part 1 knowing what is to follow for the characters. It's still a great game regardless, but I did notice that when going back to it via the PS5 version last year.
I'm in the same boat as you in regards to Part II other than the gameplay, which that along with the technical aspects of the game is what kept me going when things really turned to crap in the second half of the game's storytelling. The biggest difference from Part 1 to Part 2 is the fact that Neil Druckmann had full control over Part II, while he was kept in check in Part 1 since it was a collaboration between him and Bruce Straley. I wonder what Part 1 would have been if Neil had total control like the TV show credits make it seem like (completely removing Bruce from existence).
PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386
@Pizzamorg Yeah, my suggestion would be to endure and press ahead, so I support your unwavering commitment to see it through. The game is pretty long however, comparatively speaking. Maybe twice the length of P1. Perhaps future story beats and gameplay elements will win you over, but there are no guarantees. 🤐 Even though I am big fan of the game, there were many times it was hard to play, if that makes sense.
The biggest difference from Part 1 to Part 2 is the fact that Neil Druckmann had full control over Part II, while he was kept in check in Part 1 since it was a collaboration between him and Bruce Straley. I wonder what Part 1 would have been if Neil had total control like the TV show credits make it seem like (completely removing Bruce from existence).
That does make a lot of sense. I feel like we see this so many times.
Well don't worry, I won't bore anyone by making the same repeated criticisms over and over again (although I may clump it all together into a single package for the review thread at the end), but I will pop back into here if I get to any more ***** (and also stuff that I like, of course). If either things are meaningfully unique from things already said, anyway.
I honestly feel like I've written more about Part 2 than I did for like the whole of Part 1 already, and some of that is just that its easier to talk about sequels since you have something else for context, but I also didn't expect the game to assault me over those first three or so hours like it did. If I play the next three hours and have nothing to say at all that hasn't been already said, I'd feel like that was success.
@Pizzamorg Very true, and I also think that the ending of Part 1 being altered at the beginning of Part 2 was more in line with what Neil wanted it to be. Obviously I can't confirm that, but it seems to be a reasonable assumption.
I look forward to seeing if a part of the second half of the game makes you almost quit the game too and if the ending is as awful for you as it was for me. I guess the former will depend on how attached you are to Ellie and if you end up hating playing as Abby, but I won't say anything else about it to avoid spoiling it.
PSN ID/Xbox Live Gamertag: KilloWertz
Switch Friend Code: SW-6448-2688-7386
@LN78 I also find it fascinating to read differing takes from my own and compare and contrast my own experiences. Sometimes the polar opposite views are the most intriguing. But I’m sure the community at large is at the over-saturation point with TLoU, so I also hesitate to encourage further discussion. So either way @Pizzamorg if there’s foundational shifts in your line of thinking then I think it would definitely be worthwhile to read your thoughts. Or if, like you say, you just need to get some emotional injury off your chest as you go through. Sometimes it’s cathartic to expel a little vitriol (or praise, for that matter) to cleanse your chi when it’s been bombarded with a strong reaction to something. 😅
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
I started The Last of Us Part 2, right after finishing The Last of Us Remastered. I played both of these for the first time. I dont really understand neither hype nor drama about this franchise. Gameplaywise they are both pretty boring - oh wonder, oh wonder, all generators are out of fuel, all doors are stuck, all water parts have a board of wood next to it.... I feel like I could have stopped after the second or third chapter in Remastered and wouldnt have missed a single thing in relation to the level design. Also, how come theres always only one way yet I keep walking around for 5 minutes to find that single exit for the current area. Its all make belief, no real post apocalyptic world would work like this I dont think.
I also dont really get the praise of the story. The first game was praised alot for being this emotional perfect spotless ride, yet I didnt really feel any of that. Its a copy paste story of "hey I have to protect this girl and then I end it with a shock to make people talk about it". Part 2 worked alot better in that regard, I know theres a hate-cult about it, but I dont get that. As someone not at all heavily invested about in the first game I didnt really feel anything when certain things happend in the second one.
And no, I am not emotinally dead inside, I just honestly think these two are very boringly written, boringly designed video games. I am now in Chapter 3 in Part 2 and I think I will just watch the rest of the plot on youtube, I dont really care to walk around aimlessly looking for fuel for the 800th time anymore. Its just not good and I dont understand how this can get 10/10 scores. But to each their own.
I said I would hold off posting until I had more to say on Part 2, but I played another three hours and I feel like I already have a lot to say again, but don't worry, it is positive this time!
I said an open world Last of Us probably couldn't work, but I meant that in the modern sense of an open world. This is more like open zone, there is a clear, linear path through the space, but a few optional places to explore spread out just far enough to feel like real space rather than just videogame levels, with a smattering of enemies tossed around. Honestly, this really worked for me. I really enjoyed working my way through these zones, taking the time to go to each question mark I added to my map, or poke my head into any building I stumbled across (I love how you can just smash glass to get into buildings, too).
It certainly helps that Naughty Dog's art direction and environmental storytelling remain some of the best in the business. Some of these locations that you could potentially miss entirely, are packed with more detail than many main campaign locations in other games. I love how I got to know Dina better as we conversed while going through these spaces, while using the the little notes and all the environmental storytelling to slowly put the pieces together around what happened to this location around me.
Oh and that moment where Ellie plays the guitar and starts with Future Days... oh man, why am I crying in the club right now? To be fair, while the game doesn't give you a lot to do there, walking around Joel's house genuinely really got me, too. Maybe I just really love Joel as a character, or maybe it is because I lost a parent, but man, walking around that quiet ass house, the flowers left for him outside and just looking at all of his stuff. Man... why am I crying in this club again right now?
I will say I didn't need multiple skill trees to be honest. I also don't like how now skill trees are linear, so if you want one perk later on but don't care for the others, you have no choice but to buy all the other stuff. Dunno why they made this change, to be honest.
I also kinda don't wanna imagine the crunch that went into making this game, because it is somehow even more obsessively detailed than the first game is. Some of the new, or improved, animations here are so utterly unnecessary but are still so massively appreciated for what they bring to the general immersion the game offers, just absolutely bonkers stuff.
I also said that combat felt exactly the same, this was apparently completely wrong. The accessibility options still seem to have a weirdly lopsided effect on gameplay. To get the settings to the point where Stealthing my way through Infected sections isn't controller snappingly frustrating, also means if left alone the human enemies literally have no senses apparently, but I guess at least in some ways this is better, as at least I can tell the options are working on the Infected. In Part 1, even at the maximum settings, I still barely noticed stealth getting any easier against the Infected. Plus, at least they introduced silencers now too, this has a really positive impact on getting through the infected stealth sections.
The human enemies though, for as stupid as they are, still remain the highlight for combat in these games. Things like the new stun mechanic mean bottles are now maybe the best weapon in the whole game. You can use them to stun enemies, and then charge in for a finisher, which always feels so good and makes combat feel faster, less dated and janky. But they also introduced the Left Behind ability of using bottles to lure infected into humans, or lead people into traps and stuff. Really fun stuff. Add to that these bigger, more multi levelled spaces, combat just feels so much better. It now isn't just about circle strafing around a convenient waist height box until you can get around behind someone to watch that same stealth finisher over and over again.
Also, I know it is just smoke and mirrors, but man if I didn't feel something every time I grabbed a guy, told him to be quiet, listened as he tried to reason with me right before I stab him anyway and toss him away like trash. Only to wait for his buddy to arrive, scream 'Oh no Joey!' and then absolutely lose his ***** when he realises I killed absolutely everyone. I mean it is horrible morbid stuff, but also really excellent stuff. I also am not sure if I am meant to be killing everyone, but they have made it so fun to do, I am. Heheheeh
I also like how companions now have a more active role within the game. Even turned up to the max accessibility option in Part 1, companions often didn't really do a whole lot, even when you were getting absolutely wrecked. But now companions take a more active role in combat, a more active role in puzzles, point out information for you and impressively can even blow stealth sections for you as well which is probably going to turn into a frustration later on, but as of right now I was just kinda impressed the AI could no longer stand in the open while you stealthed around the place.
I dunno if this is how the whole game is structured, or whether it will be more traditional Last of Us style levels from here on out, but at least I can say these three or so hours were awesome.
@Pizzamorg You’re on a real roller coaster, mate! 😂
Yeah, I was biting my tongue a little bit when you said in your first impression post that the combat, gameplay, and level design felt identical to P1. Glad you have found something to enjoy after the rough first hours.
And yeah, really feeling the consequence of your actions (especially with killing) is a major theme of the game throughout, even with the routine murder of each NPC. Like I said in my review, the stark contrast to the lovable mass-murderer Nathan Drake.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
I really am @Th3solution! Wherever I end up with this game, at least I can say it was never boring!
Yeah, it is weird, because those opening hours take place in more traditional Part 1 environments, I think entirely against Infected from memory and you don't have a lot of those meaningful upgrades yet, so the combat just felt identical to me and the new things they added had basically no impact on combat. It is kind of a shame they did this, as people who did an 'Alright, I am out' after that death scene don't really ever get to see what this game has to offer, gameplaywise, which only further strengthens my belief that the opening couple of hours of this game just suck.
The approach to NPC slaughter is very different to Part 1. They had a little of this in Part 1, but Part 1 as we spoke about before is very much more about the player framing their own events, rather than being told how to feel about the events. I am kinda sad that this is lost now and the game is more directly telling you how to feel about things, but this complaint is somewhat offset as the AI behaviour in this regard is really interesting and the wider combat sandbox around these events feels so much stronger (at least against humans).
@N1ghtW1ng Wait, was Return to Arkham not 60fps? I could've sworn it was. Hmm. Wonder what made me think otherwise? It's been a while, mind. Oh well.
Yes, Return to Arkham is not 60 fps. It's really disappointing that the game isn't running at 60 fps when the combat system, especially in Arkham City, is such a highlight.
@N1ghtW1ng Oh yeah congrats on beating the first Uncharted in the crushing difficulty nice achievement there. I think the game looks beautiful but unfounate feels kind of broken at times. That said I think the games improves.
Thank you. Again, I don't consider it to be that much of an achievement, it's pretty doable, just very frustrating sometimes.
I forgot to mention that I had a lot of hard crashes while I was playing through Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. I would boot up the game, load my saved game and move forward and then the game would hard crash all of a sudden. This happened quite a few times.
@Pizzamorg (and others) it might be worth sticking continued chat into the TLOU2 specific thread as there’s some spoilery chat going on (just in case there is still anyone out there who hasn’t played the game yet!)
The OT is fully spoilered to so there shouldn’t be much of a worry of accidentally reading anything; most of the chat on the last page are general feelings about the game/ending.
The OT is fully spoilered to so there shouldn’t be much of a worry of accidentally reading anything; most of the chat on the last page are general feelings about the game/ending.
That is fair, I did look around for a thread way back when I was playing through Part 1. There were a LOT of threads, and a lot of them looked quite old, so I didn't know what the 'necro' rules were, so I have been using these threads ever since. Good to know what thread to use, and that I have the okay to necro it, I'll jump into there next time (:
Devil May Cry 5!
What a game! I have not played Bayo3 yet, but this might be the best game in its genre. Hated DMC4, but just having a decent camera & removing the unnecessary puzzles goes a long way.
‘V’ is my favourite character to play as, but I literally just got Dante so who knows.
Game goes from strength-to-strength.
Lives, Lived, Will Live.
Dies, Died, Will Die.
If we could perceive time for what it really was,
What reason would Grammar Professors have to get out of bed?- Robert & Rosalind Lutece
@Fight_Teza_Fight Do you recommend DMC5 as a good entry point to the series? I think I played little bits and pieces of a couple of the older games, but really don’t have any idea about the characters or plot (if one exists)
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
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