Topic: 'Next' step for consoles - a discussion...

One of the things that I feel MS and the direction they appear to be moving towards that I think Sony should consider is that 'eco-system'. With this, MS look to be preserving 'old' games and the ability to continue playing at no extra cost. Moving forward, a 'new' console should/could play every game that the last console can and with the user base of those 'consoles'. In theory this could preserve the playability of old games and lessen the need/desire for remasters, which lets be honest, has been quite prolific this generation. The ability to play XB360 games with XB360 and XB1 owners, XB1 games with XB1 owners etc actually increases the user base - especially if the Scorpio can play Win10/UWP PC games with PC owners - be interesting to see how competitive games play with keyboard/mouse vs controller though - shouldn't be an issue for co-op...

I think this is more liberating for MS. Sony are in a more difficult situation as it has to keep the PS4 user base happy - a lot more people than MS has on the XB1 - and as a result maybe can't make the Neo too powerful. If it is, a lot of that power is unlikely to get utilised or if it is, could make the difference between PS4 and Neo too great. It also means that Sony have to dictate to developers a 'set' of rules - like games must run on both, the only difference has to be graphical (resolution/frame rate), the Neo can't be lower on frame rate than the base mode and the Neo must be at least 1080p. The Scorpio though 'could' be a whole new generation of Xbox. It could play XB1 games but also have its 'own' games - it looks like it will have its own VR software which obviously won't work on the XB1. This means that games 'could' have extra features and/or extra content too. If games increase in scale, and developers start to use more and more of the new technology and features of these, its going to be increasingly difficult for games to be ported to XB1 at the same standard but with just resolution and/or frame rate drops. More often than not though, the developer gets blamed for 'poor' performance and/or 'poor' visuals but often its hardware restrictions. By releasing a 'new' gen, this could give developers the option to release a cut back (visually, frame rate or even content) version or skip it altogether. As much as that could annoy XB1 owners, it doesn't necessarily reflect back on the developers as much as a poorly performing game would.

Nintendo's NX, incidentally, is also rumoured to have VR support and the hardware manufacturing has been delayed - According to Digitimes, 'sources' from the related upstream supply chain pointed out that the delay was because Nintendo wished to enhance the game console's video-game/handheld-game-integrated gaming experience and add virtual reality (VR) function into the system to gain advantages in the upcoming video game and mobile game competitions. The report is that the platform features a 5- to 7-inch display, controller and joystick for users to play as a mobile gaming product, but it is also able to connect to a TV for users to play as a video game system. Nintendo is now planning to add VR function to the device.

It seems that all the next wave of consoles (as well as the PS4 of course) will be VR enabled. Sony obviously has their own PSVR headset and it seems that MS will partner up with Oculus Rift - at least initially but I wouldn't be surprised if they developed a VR headset (maybe like Samsung VR?) or at the very least, paid OR to make an XB branded OR type headset. I can see Nintendo making their own too.

Man, they're new console already sounds way too complicated. Nintendo wasn't able to explain the Wii U to the market, this sounds like a failure. I'm serious, if they'd go for a normal console, that has the best controller ever made (no gimmicks, just quality) and Amiibo support they would have a huge hit on their hands.
Oh, and here's some tips for a few games: Pokémon 3D RPG, Mario Galaxy 3 and a SSB Melee HD Remaster. It would be só easy to run Nintendo. I hardly understand how they mess it up.

They think they have too, I guess. They fear for consoles turning out of style.

@Kidfried: To me it sounds like the controller is like a PS Vita but when linked to a console connected to a TV, it becomes a WiiU style controller with the screen. I would imagine it has a 'console' component to have 'discs' but the controller could have memory cards and cartridge based games to work as a handheld gaming console - like the Vita.

Personally I have no interest in kids toys/gaming so couldn't care less about Amiibo, Pokemon etc. I wouldn't mind seeing them trying to appeal to a more adult market and not the casual market and be able to offer 3rd party support forr the 'big' games - the Handheld aspect could add a new dimension to those games if it can't compete with the visuals. Offering handheld options or some unique feature not found in Sony or MS's consoles, then it could compete.

But then you'll run into the same problem Nintendo is facing for over ten years now: it will cost money to integrate those features in a good way and in the end people will want the best looking version of a game anyway. Nintendo will lose the battle for third party support. They have to make a console that is competitive on a technical level and easy to develop for.

@Kidfried: That depends. If the console can hit 1080/60 (I know its aiming for 900/60 but that's the same as Star Wars: BF) and most have 1080p TV's then games may not look 'bad' on the NX. If the Neo/Scorpio are 1200-1440/60 for example, they may look slightly better (if you have a 4K TV or they 'downsample' to 1080) but the NX could still deliver something unique. Maybe things like portability or being able to play these on the hand-held if the TV is in use, having the map on the little screen or some other features - like buy a main game and get a portable game free so to speak, could be more enticing than just a boost in resolution for SOME people.

For example, You buy Mario Kart 9 (or what ever the next is) and get MK9 portable free. When playing on console, the hand held screen could act as the map or even as a rear view mirror. Obviously that's a Nintendo game. Maybe a game like Battlefield 1 doesn't utilise the screen in the main game (or has the general overview of the map, the control points and who currently has control of these), runs at least at the same level as a PS4, better than an XB1, but can set classes, check stats etc on the hand-held before you even load up the game on the main console by connecting to Wi-fi or something - maybe even play it if the TV is not available by streaming to it and offering 'remote' play. The screen doesn't 'always' have to have a use, it could just display the scoreboard or leaderboard during an MP game - not something you need to keep looking at but easier than having a button press to bring it up over the main screen and another button press to get rid of it...

Its not that different from Sony's PS4 and Vita combination but this is in one package. It sounds like its going to offer VR too. Depending on the price of course, that could be a very competitive package - but like any system, its very dependent on the software. Its all well and good having Nintendo's own developers making Mario, Zelda and family friendly games, but it also needs good 3rd Party support. It could easily match the PS4 or even be more powerful, in which case, if it is relatively easy to port to (the new API's make this easier), then its entirely possible it could compete with the XB1 and PS4 market. The Neo at least is still just a PS4 console - just with more power so it may not compete directly with this in terms of 'visuals' but could at least match the base PS4, offer remote play, portability and VR too. With its own 'exclusives', it could be a real contender.

@Kidfried: @BAMozzy: Nintendo already said that they're not going to sell the NX at a loss. I cannot see them including effectively two separate devices in one package if they don't want to sell it at a loss and still sell it to a large audience.

@Octane: How much does a Vita cost? How much does a PS4 cost? How much would it cost to make each, package together and sell? How much is the NX costing? It could easily cost £300 and still not be sold for a loss. The controller is essentially the mobile device as the Vita can be used (I believe) with Playstations so its possible...

@BAMozzy: €300 for both a handheld device and a home console is pretty cheap. That's definitely not PS4 levels of power, let alone PS4 NEO.

Of course I'm making the assumption that the NX is at least on par with the PS4 (it has to be as a console that releases 3.5 years later) and hopefully on par with the PS4 NEO.

I'd be surprised if Sony manages to sell the PS4 NEO for €300 without a loss. Making profit on a home console and handheld in one package means that neither of them will be much of an improvement, which I doubt (and hope) isn't the case.

@Octane: I said £300 - that's probably €350 and its not that 'cheap' considering a PS4 can be bought for £250 (or less) and the Vita for £120 or so. I know this actually works out more combined but take off £40 or so for the controller and instead of profit margins on 2 separate items, just on 1. The new RX480 'Polaris' GPU will retail at $199 (around £150) but that includes all the profit margins for manufacturer, distributor and retailer. Its a lot higher than the cost to Nintendo buying in Bulk. No doubt the NX 'console' could be built for £200ish - GPU, CPU, Bluray drive, RAM, HDD and ports (parts at near cost and assembly) - the XB1 costs £230 for example with 'profit' to MS, distributors and retailers - so Nintendo could do it. I bet Sony make a profit in their Vita as well as the Distributors and retailers profit - so 'could' make a console at least as powerful as the PS4 and Vita and still sell it for £300 - maybe if the use the Polaris - it could be £400 (about £50 more than the expected price of the Neo) but obviously could be as powerful and come with a 'Vita' like handheld controller too. My £300 though was based on PS4 type performance. I fully expect the PS4 to drop to £200ish when the Neo releases.

The Neo is expected to be close to the launch price of the PS4 - that was £350 here - I don't know the price in €'s (around €400 I guess). Its speculation of course but hopefully you can see how it 'could' be possible to release the NX, as I have speculated (Vita and console) for £3-400 depending on the power, and still make a profit. I would be very surprised if ony pay more than £70 to manufacture the Vita and I doubt the PS4 costs as much as £150 to manufacture - meaning it could release 'both' combined for £300 and still make a profit. The costs to the general public of components are a LOT higher - especially to us in the west as is the labour to build them!

@BAMozzy: Yeah, PS4 was €400 at launch.

Anyway, I don't disagree with your ideas and I think it's neat if the upcoming handheld and home consoles have more interaction. There's no reason for two separate Mario Kart games when both systems can run the same game (in different resolutions and framerate of course). It means less development time for the staple franchises and more time to develop other games. My problem is that I don't think both should be sold in one package. When you're effectively selling two separate devices in one package, you may as well sell them separately for a lower price that would undoubtedly convince more people to buy the system. I'm not sure I want a new handheld as all of my gaming is currently done on home consoles exclusively, so for me there's no reason for fork out another €100/150 for an expensive controller that comes bundled with the home console. Same is true for the large handheld audience Nintendo has, handheld have always been cheaper, and I don't think those people suddenly want to get into home console gaming or want to pay ~€400 for just a handheld.

I say, sell them separately. Include a solid, but simple controller with the home console and let the handheld be its own thing. The handheld can act like a second controller if you want to, or as a GamePad-type of device, but can also play its own games like any other handheld.

Sony took a loss on the PS4 at launch, and we know that it wasn't as advanced as the PS3 was for its time. Selling a home console that's up to date with the current times and a decent handheld in one package, without a loss, is not ''impossible'', but it's either going to be expensive or not as powerful as it could have been. I'd rather pay €400 for a solid home console than €300 for a home console that comes bundled with a €100 handheld.

@Octane: Personally I am going on the rumours. I am not that bothered what Nintendo do in truth as I haven't bothered with them since the Wii. The rumours state though that Nintendo will be releasing a Mobile/hand held cross Console in one. The WiiU had a screen based controller so the natural extension to that would be to make that 'controller' double up as a 'hand held' that is capable of playing 'gameboy' and mobile style games. I wasn't meaning that MK9 for example would be made twice so to speak but the game could have a 'hand-held' version built in that you can install to the controller - maybe to a memory card or something. When you link up to the console, the TV version plays - better visuals, better effects (I don't know - just an idea). Any stats, progress etc synch up with each other - effectively letting you play the game without 'streaming' if that isn't available at the time.

Maybe they will sell the 'Handheld' part separately too - the successor in essence to the 3DS and maybe the console part for those that buy the hand-held first (maybe with a basic controller) but the 'main' pack will contain the 'Vita-esque' controller and the base unit console. I can't say 'Hand-held/mobile' gaming appeals to me but that sector is, I believe, very popular. The WiiU though has been one of the lowest selling consoles by Nintendo yet the Hand-helds have continued to sell in numbers - which could be a driving factor in making a 'console-portable' hybrid. Its possible that the NX doesn't have a 'base' unit but I think it makes more sense to use discs than cartridges that a hand-held would have to. There was a rumour stating that the NX would be returning to cartridges which if its a 'Handheld' that connects to the TV rather than a console that can be a handheld, this would make sense. If it is purely hand-held that can play games on TV (connected wirelessly - maybe through a TV stick type device) to the quality of a PS4 standard, that's quite impressive...

According to rumours, the NX is allegedly anywhere from as powerful to the current consoles up to 'noticeably' more powerful than a PS4 - no specs have been revealed so its all speculation. As I said, the rumours tend to point at a hand-held/console hybrid type system. I speculated that it 'could' be two main components - hand-held 'controller' and TV base unit but it could just be the hand-held device with a TV stick which could link up to 4 handhelds for split-screen - maybe Nintendo will release a more basic controller that links up to the NX but doesn't actually 'play' the game as that is running on the Hand-held - if you can see what I mean. The Vita was £250 at launch (I believe) so the NX, if its a hand-held first, then it could launch at a similar cost and if its as (or a little more) powerful as a PS4, that could be impressive. Software though is still going to be a factor in its success - but if you look at the 3rd party games that play on this gen, you 'maybe' could see some/all of these and play them on the go too.

The PS3 was actually sold at a loss but the PS4 wasn't. It took Sony a long time to actually start making any profit on the original PS3 but the PS4 was sold at a profit from day 1. Obviously that just components and manufacturing costs but doesn't include all the R&D costs - never the less the console was sold at a profit to Sony - they said they would never make a console that was sold at a loss again after the PS3.

The point of this was to discuss the rumours and what we think we could see based on these. Also a place to discuss what we want to see, the direction consoles seem to be moving towards and the technological advancements they could utilise - at least until things are officially confirmed one way or the other. Its obviously an open-ended discussion - at least until consoles reach their conclusion - if they do of course...

@BAMozzy: I believe that most of the rumours are made up. It's better to think and see what is actually possible than to go off the rumours. I'm not sure that I believe the ''GamePad 2.0'' idea. Back in 2010/2011, rumours talked about the Wii 2 with updated Wii Remotes, en evolution of motion controls. That didn't happen and that was their best selling home console. The Wii U flopped as a commercial product and the high costs of the GamePad were one reason why the console was held back; Now it's their worst selling home console, I cannot see Nintendo continue with the concept as a main selling point. Maybe we'll get a GamePad-esque controller that is optional and can be bought separately, but I don't think that their new controller will resemble the GamePad in form and functionality. Its price is another reason why I don't think it's a good idea to sell them as one package, but I already talked about that.

As far as I'm aware, the PS4 hardware was sold at a loss during launch.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-20-sony-expects-to-...

@Octane: PS4 was actually sold at a profit effectively BUT if you factor in the costs of advertising, R&D, distribution and other factors, then it was sold at a very small loss per unit. Like I said though that the actual console (sum of its parts and manufacture) was below the RRP sale cost - It certainly didn't cost $399 to manufacture but then factor in all the other costs and profits then Sony did take a small hit.

As far as Rumours go, there are those that are clearly fabricated but you do get some that are substantiated by industry insiders and corroborated by others in good and reliable positions. The Neo for example has had a number of leaks, that have been 'confirmed' by developers with access to the tech/information. Its still a 'rumour' because Sony themselves haven't officially announced its existence. Whilst products - particularly hardware, are in the R&D stage, its a lot easier to keep these from leaking. However when you have to send specs, information etc to 3rd party developers, then there is a greater chance for things to leak. This has been the case for the Neo, the specs have leaked as well as the way developers have to implement 'Neo' in its games (no less than 1080p, no lower specs than base, no extra features and must also run on both versions - base and Neo, what happens to games released before and after Oct). Developers need these specs in advance - they can't ensure a game runs on it and optimise for it, if they don't know the specs. AMD also announced that they expect 3 new 'units' to help boost their profits/market share in the gaming sector. They can't say what these are because they are 'unannounced' 3rd party devices so we can see a number of pointers towards the next wave of consoles - even though they are still mostly rumoured - the NX at least has been acknowledged by Nintendo...

Certain parts may also have to be tested, licensed and/or patented. MS for example recently had to apply for a 'new' licence for 2 wifi type chips - 1 had the XB1 manual attached - assumed to be the 'new' slim as it has the same operating guidelines and 1 with a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) manual attached - which appears to be the 'chip' used in the 'Scorpio'.

Certain parts can be decided, like the GPU, RAM, CPU (although these can be changed (I expect the CPU to be changed) or overclocked but this is the minimum) but other aspects may not be finalised, like overall design, ports, HDD size, Bluray (upscaling or UHD). These aren't 'essential' to a developer to make the games run. Console manufacturers could still be negotiating and finalising aspects so don't feel they can 'officially' announce it - especially if they don't quite know what it looks like, what they are hoping it will do (4k streaming? Bluray capability, number of ports), costs (one of the first thing people want to know - but can't answer until everything is finalised), release date etc etc. Whilst there is too many variables, its not exactly professional to officially announce anything. If they get asked a question (like how much will it cost, when is it out, can it play UHD Blurays, how many ports, what's the HDD size etc..) but can only answer with 'I don't know', it isn't very professional. Just because they may not have been in a position to make an announcement - especially as they also want to keep selling PS4's/XB1's in the mean time, doesn't make ALL the rumours BS or lack any 'truth'

Scorpio CONFIRMED - 6Tflops (Polaris has around 5, nVidia GTX 1080 around 7tflops and better than a Titan).....WOW 2017 release...

@BAMozzy: At what price I must wonder..

@Octane: Based on current RRP's for PC hardware - Considering they would buy direct from manufacturer and cut out middlemen, shop retailers and their profits - I wouldn't be surprised if it was for $500 ish. The Polaris (AMD RX480) costs around $230 RRP and delivers about 5Tflops, the nVidia GTX1070 is around $380 (probably about 6Tflops and slightly more powerful than the Titan in performance) and the GTX1080 around $700 but also 7Tflops so 12-18months these could drop in price too.

@BAMozzy: I wonder if Sony pulled Neo from e3 just to wait for Microsoft to announce there's first so now Sony has a chance to make a better console in spec wise again

@SKC_Diamond: I wondered that too but I think the Neo is likely to be replaced in a few years by PS5 anyway. I can't see the PS4 lasting 5-6 or even 7yrs if the games are developed with the new technology and power in mind. Therefore I don't see the need to make the Neo too powerful because its not going to get games and content that can't play on a PS4 and you wouldn't want to make the gap between the two excessively big. 2.5x is pushing the max I think - its similar in essence to the N64 Expansion pack which doubled the RAM. In 3yrs (say) some games in theory could run on the Neo but I can see them seriously struggling on PS4 but they couldn't release another iterative console so they would have to release the PS5. You can't suddenly release games that only run on the Neo and not on the PS4 or have differences beyond visual - not after saying that its an 'enhanced' PS4 etc - so it makes no sense to try and compete with MS's in this instance. More likely is that Sony will release a much more powerful PS5 in 2018 - a year (at the earliest and 5yrs after the PS4 launched) after MS's Scorpio and have the more powerful Console. MS can't exactly release Scorpio 2 a year later so would be stuck for a few years...

They key thing I took from MS's presentation and the various interviews with them before/after the event was the concept of maintaining compatibility and I think that is really key. I think MS made the point somewhere that PC Gamers can play a 10yr old game while a console gamer can't.

To keep gamers on side, I think that gamers need to know that gaming investments will be maintained throughout periodical hardware improvements for a good few years. That makes hardware sales more of a personal choice. This makes me feel a little bit better about the the Neo etc. Obviously, you will need to upgrade but you can always choose between full and mid cycle upgrades and be confident that you will have a good library of games.

@Rudy_Manchego: I think that MS are moving more towards that Eco-system. Games will just have Xbox on the box and a minimum hardware level on the back - for example minimum required One or Scorpio. 10yrs down the line, you could buy the next Xbox and your entire Xbox library will play - just like buying a new PC and 20yr old PC games will still play on it.

Neo though, I see as just an enhanced PS4. 2 or 3 years down the line, we will get PS5 and start over again - maybe it will have BC with PS4 too - I can hope but I can't see the next 'iterative' step so to speak. Sony seem to be making assurances that all PS4 games will run on both the PS4 and Neo. There will come a point when games won't run without compromising more than just 'visuals' but 'could' run on the Neo. Sony won't risk releasing a Neo only version after assuring that won't happen and therefore would have to release just on PS5. I think that's part of the reason Sony aren't bothered by MS's much more powerful XB1. As I said Xbox will just put the minimum console spec on the box but I can't see Sony releasing a game that has 'minimum Neo' because of the backlash it would receive after assuring that PS4 would not miss out...