Topic: The Movie Thread

@WanderingBullet I know Uncut Gems is coming to Netflix at the end of the month, that was a great film and I can't wait to see it again in the comfort of my own bedroom

I think it’s time to post my Rise of Skywalker impressions.

As I stated on another thread, I largely agree with the consensus and those that have already written their thoughts — that is, that the film is a decent enough installment in the sequel trilogy, one with some great Star Wars moments, and yet it’s a movie that leaves a bit of emptiness in me. Although I echo the feelings that others have expressed, I do have some of my own specific thoughts I’ll share, if you’ll allow me to indulge for a moment.

First off, to pare it down to the basic problem here — the emotional impact and payoff of a nine film epic should have resonated with me more powerfully. For some reason the movie just falls flat. Not that the movie doesn’t have its spectacular moments, huge reveals, plot twists, and dramatic scenes that a concluding entry should have — it just feels relatively forced (no pun intended) most of the time.

As you all know, over the last several months I’ve had a few marathon rewatches of some favorite multi-movie series, like Harry Potter and the MCU Infinity Stone saga, so it’s hard not to compare them with how the “Skywalker Saga” concluded. In the case of those other beloved franchises, I felt a much more satisfactory crescendo of emotion and gratifying closure than I did with this movie. Some of that had to do with the execution of the story and its breakneck speed, and some of it had to do with its nebulousness and “open to interpretation” type of approach in some of its closing moments.

Before I proceed further, my apologies to @RogerRoger and KALofKRYPTON (KAL I trust you’ll see this and I won’t officially tag you because I’m not sure you’ve seen the film yet and I’m delving into spoilers here. I get the feeling you don’t mind them, but I’ll let you decide, rather than bombard you unwittingly through the email) for my comment #3385 on Dec. 16th on this thread (don’t go back and read it again KAL! Unless you want to) My accurate prediction of a major turning point in the movie was purely accidental. I had no foreknowledge through any leaks, I had not read that theory anywhere on the internet. I hope you realized it was just me spouting nonsense which inevitably actually proved to be prophetic. It was not my intent to spoil any of the movie for you or anyone else.
....And therein lies the problem — in a “a couple pals at the bar spouting off random ‘wouldn’t it be cool if...’ ideas” type of moment, I managed to half-jokingly predict with exactness one of the biggest turning points in the movie. I’m not saying this to boast, I’m saying that whether it was just signposted or merely predictable in a fan-service kind of way, the desired effect was cheapened by its conventionality and it’s ‘safe bet’ type of orthodoxy. Nearly the whole movie suffers from similar platitudinousness.

The same could never have been said of big moments in the other installments. I would have never gone into Empire saying: “[yawn] Vader is probably gonna end up being Luke’s father,” or before seeing RotJ “Wouldn’t it be cool if Vader is actually the one who kills the Emperor.” Those moments were able to catch the audience off-guard and yet make narrative sense, unlike the combined sequences of film making conventions and literary gymnastics that Rise makes the viewer sit through.

To be fair, I didn’t predict Rey was a Palpatine (I didn’t peek at KAL’s late pre-release spoiler tagged theories until after I saw the movie because I had a feeling his leaked information was starting to sound legitimate so I held off reading them) but despite it being a surprise, it still felt hollow. The whole series of conclusive moments feel jam packed and “let’s write this story as we go.” Again, contrast this with Harry Potter where it’s clear that the late series events were conceived at the very beginning, and circumstances at the end are cleverly tied back to the very first movies/books with plenty of “Aha!” moments that make you appreciate good story construction, as if each of the story’s machinations was preconceived to unfold at the prescribed pace.
If Harry Potter is a lovely tapestry of cleverly weaved together threads, and the MCU is a nice art school painting project where the whole class has a chance to add a few colors and images to the same lovely scene, then the Skywalker saga is a 5 year-old child’s first attempt at making something with his Lego set. “Look daddy! It’s a spaceship!”

To give another example, the movie just goes too often to the trope of the Darth Maul-esque “character appears to have died but actually comes back to life” too much (Emperor Palpatine, Rey, Kylo, Chewie, C3PO... not to mention the return of characters in ghost form - Han, Luke, Leia, Yoda...). Lots of movies use this plot device for dramatic effect, and it can be a fun and exciting twist to see a hero appear to die and then, “Ta-da! Just kidding! He’s really still alive! Tricked you didn’t I!” But if you go to the well too much it cheapens the effect. It’s why I felt nothing when Rey appeared to have died, or when Kylo was throw off into the abyss. In my mind, I knew that wasn’t the send off he was going to get, so there was no gasping and hand wringing when he is seemingly thrown unceremoniously down a dark hole by Palpatine. (Of course I had virtually no emotional connection with him anyway because his character was so mishandled from the beginning, but that’s a different point entirely). Then when he actually does die in the bizarre “giving all my life force to you through a kiss” in one last selfless act, it just didn’t impact me. I really felt nothing. Not like the deaths of people in Avengers End Game, Harry Potter, or like the tears I shed watching Frodo leaving on the ship at the end of Return of the King with the Elves, or heck... I can list dozens of video games right now off the top of my head that handled the death of major characters with much more emotional impact.

Things I did like:
I genuinely do like Rey (as opposed to Kylo). I like the character, I like the actress, I like the story arc. Admittedly, I really don’t care for her weird relationships with a couple other characters the strange love triangle of her, Finn, and Kylo/Ben and her strained and flat appearing relationship with Leia and Luke. However, unlike the outraged fan base, I don’t mind the new lightsaber at the end, or the illogical speed with which she masters the Force. I can swallow all that due to some of the cool things she does and chock it up to her rich Palpatine blood. I like Poe and Finn somewhat. I like BB-8.

A couple of the new characters were fun. shout out to Babu Frik! And as I said elsewhere, I didn’t mind Poe’s love interest and general BA, Zorii Bliss, despite her cheesy name. Also Finn gets a new buddy Jannah (since Rey runs off with Kylo?) who is a decent character. The seeds for her to get her own movie or TV series were clearly sown.

The visuals and art direction were quite good. Not just visually appealing, but they were unique with new species of humanoids and creatures. The music seems good, the acting in general was good, and the sound design was great, as to be expected with lightsabers, speeders, and ships.

Above all, I’m glad it’s over and we can all move on with our lives. But like I said elsewhere, don’t get too comfortable. Don’t be surprised if some of these characters, storylines, and lore will be showing up in the TV series that will be populating Disney + for the next several years.

I’ve droned on long enough.
I give this post a 6.75/10. Points deducted for lack of brevity.

@Th3solution
Don't worry, I feel like I know the script at this point!

Your thoughts on the film really do tally with what most people I know who've seen it have said. The critical response has been interesting (as has the financial take), though not massively polarising.

It's very JJ in most ways - but it does seem like this really isn't his preferred cut!

@LN78
The widely reported and corroborated (by JJ himself) info' on the cut of the film, was that the film was still being edited at the end of October. A lot was shot, Lucas did work with JJ on the film, most if not all of his contributions aren't in the final cut. Matt Smith was cut etc.

Regarding the Financial results; 'Poor' opening weekend - lower than TLJ I think (and the predicted opening was revised down several times in the run up to release) and an 81% plunge by the third week. In realistic terms of reasonable people, it has and still will make lots of money. Up to a billion (worldwide) by the weekend probably. But it's looking unlikely to see the Endgame near $2.8 - and the merchandising doesn't seem to be faring particularly well either - toys especially.

Added to that the online clamour for some sort of Director's Cut, the 'end' of Star Wars is very likely a financial disappointment for Disney.

@DonJorginho Thanks. I've just checked and it looks like Uncut Gems will be available here at the end of the month as well.

@KALofKRYPTON By the way, I recently saw a video discussing how the Sith Dagger in the film was supposed to be the Dagger of Mortis, as I'd asked you about previously, and that it was part of George Lucas' contribution to the script (which would've also explained how Palpatine was alive, and what his ultimate plan for dominance over the entire Living Force would've been, something far grander in scope and more encompassing than what we ended up with).

@LN78 From what I've heard, The Rise of Skywalker was pretty much always the same script since JJ took over; the issues come from it being hacked down, re-edited and pasted together with hasty inserts still being filmed a couple months ago. If it had told the same story, but been allowed a proper pace to do so, it would've been a much more worthwhile endeavour but instead, we're left with frayed edges and echoes of what actually got filmed (case in point, the Jedi voices speaking to Rey, which was originally a longer scene with Hayden Christensen, Ewan McGregor, Samuel L. Jackson and Liam Neeson appearing as ghosts alongside Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and a puppet of Yoda, with the voices of the other animated Jedi (Ahsoka, Kanan, Luminara, etc.) speaking along with them... a far greater emotional payoff than a starfield with the audio ripped from that filmed footage being played over it). But every cut, every trim changed the nature of the story, requiring new, rushed exposition to be dumped in its place, like the aforementioned dagger.

***

@Th3solution I loved reading your thoughts, thanks for typing them up. I think you're rightfully tough on the film, harsh but fair, and it's a shame that you echo the general consensus over what is a spectacularly wasted opportunity. But hey, at least what worked in it, worked well (whether it was easily-guessable, fanboy-banter-level material or not). After the lukewarm start of The Force Awakens and the car crash viewing of The Last Jedi, I'll settle a partial win on Disney's part.

The one thing I do wanna pick out of your post, however, is the important point of third-act (not to mention ninth-act) character arcs and pacing. Let's just do a little experiment here.

New Plot-Important Characters Introduced in Return of the Jedi
1) Mon Mothma
2) Admiral Ackbar
3) The Ewoks

New Plot-Important Characters Introduced in Revenge of the Sith
1) General Grievous
2) Darth Vader (from a certain point of view)

New Plot-Important Characters Introduced in The Rise of Skywalker
1) Zorii Bliss
2) Babu Frik
3) D-O
4) Allegiant General Pryde
5) Ochi (who we never see outside of flashbacks)
6) Jannah

And personally, I'd count Lando and Palpatine in that last list as well, given the importance of their fourth-quarter comebacks making them feel like new additions to the sequel trilogy. My point is, this didn't feel like a natural continuation of a story, whether three or nine parts long. It felt like somebody's last opportunity to try and be creative in the Star Wars universe, but then not being given the breathing room to fully explore what they'd created because they've also got to wrap everything (and everybody) else. I was invested in the continuation of each trilogy's core cast, enough for their third and final films to be satisfying emotional payoffs. This film? Felt like a marketing exercise.

As you rightly said, Disney can't seem to stop sowing seeds for future merchandising ventures. I'd put real money on Zorii Bliss getting some kind of Disney+ show, or being part of a prequel series exploring Poe Dameron's (sudden) shady past like they're doing with Cassian Andor and K-2SO.

A film executed by a thousand corporate monkeys chained to a thousand corporate typewriters.

Truly the blurst of times.

@RogerRoger Do not be surprised when Disney get on board with a Director's Cut for the Blu-Ray. It probably won't restore much from abandoned cuts - but I wouldn't rule out seeing the force ghost footage and a re-jig to the exposition and pacing.

@KALofKRYPTON I think it'd be mad of them not to, knowing that there's no such thing as a secret in Hollywood anymore and so the fans are out there, expecting to see it.

@LN78 Yeah, I saw that insanely-huge collection as well, but will likely be holding off. If it had the original theatrical versions of the prequels, I'd be interested (because they're far superior) but my current Blu-Rays will do me for now. I'll get Rise of Skywalker as a standalone release, then consider the 4K versions once I get a PS5 and can actually see the difference. I genuinely do think that the day will come, likely during this forthcoming "pause" of new Star Wars films, that Disney will release a theatrical-cut collection of the whole saga, but it'd be foolish marketing for them not to wait a couple years, forcing customers to double-dip.

@RogerRoger Want to buy some first release prequel DVDs? Huh? Huh? ;-p

@LN78 @RogerRoger
I think to footage thing will go one way or the other. They'll let JJ re-cut the film to a limited degree and release it - or not. And the 'not' part will cover the rest of the films too.

@KALofKRYPTON I've still got The Phantom Menace on DVD (for the phenomenal "The Beginning" documentary alone; the DVD version was the first which got tampered with, only the VHS is the true original cut) but not Attack of the Clones, alas. Save for one single transition wipe and missing ship shot, Revenge of the Sith is unaltered on Blu-Ray, thank goodness.

@LN78 Yeah, starting with the DVD and then again on Blu-Ray. The most extensive is The Phantom Menace. Almost all of the podrace's second lap was never in the original film, and its re-insertion is done with far cheaper CGI. It's jarring, cartoonish and pretty cringeworthy. Elsewhere, the "Vote now!" chanting is removed from the Senate scene, wiping out its dramatic tension and making Palpatine's Machiavellian statement to Amidala seem hollow and random. Some of the additions (like the extended arrival at Coruscant) are okay, but largely the tinkering was done on the cheap and it shows.

Attack of the Clones is largely untouched, up until the conclusion of Dooku's duel with Yoda. The reaction shots between Yoda putting the crane down and Dooku taking off are re-ordered, and have been done so in what appears to be Windows Movie Maker, with no coherence to the music or pacing. It now looks as though Yoda just gives up and allows Dooku to take off, ruining the whole point of his distraction escape method, and the sudden stop-start cuts in John Williams' beautiful score make my heart ache. There is absolutely zero artistic or plot reason for it being a thing, and yet there it is.

So yeah, whilst I love and support almost all of the alterations made to the original trilogy, I totally understand and sympathise with the passions of those who hate them.

@LN78

Seriously, when did I run over your cat? I'd really like to know!

@LN78 Apologies, just my random wit (or at least half of it).

@RogerRoger Thanks, and yeah, that’s an interesting observation about the large number of new plot-influencing characters.
I did feel like there was an excessive amount of deus ex machina that detracted from the validity of the plot; I see now that this opinion is further supported by your quantification of having so many new random (albeit cute, stylish, or nostalgic) characters drop in miraculously from the sky to save the protagonists and pull them out of the various corners that the writers had painted them into.
So the new characters serve the purpose of being agents for progression of the plot to JJ’s desired end point ...as well as to sell toys, T-shirts, and lay groundwork for new shows 😄.
Regardless, I liked the creativity and variance of some of these creations, even if they were late to the party and, as you say, deserved to have much more time to be developed properly, rather than just popping in to save (or ruin, as the case may be) the day.

It’s why you’ll love The Mandalorian. The pace is so slow and methodical by comparison with a much more limited number of characters and they really to get that room to breath.

As far as Rise, I will be watching it again at some point - probably sooner rather than later. And historically I have enjoyed many movies better the second time. I think this will be one of those that will be better with a second viewing, since I won’t have to concentrate so much on following the disjointed journey and I can ponder some of the deeper threads introduced and just enjoy relishing in the good parts.

@Th3solution Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with a new character designed specifically to drive the plot (heck, General Grievous was just kinda... "there", designed to get in the way and isolate Obi-Wan and, as you say, sell a couple cool toys) but when executed so hastily, and with so many of them, it quickly becomes noticeable and confusing, robbing the core characters of their own screen-time and development. I think that approach underpins a lot of what you, and others, have said about the film overall.

It's interesting that you saw The Mandalorian first, and how many are holding it up as an example of Star Wars done right (or at least, better than The Rise of Skywalker at any rate). I wonder if that'll amplify or subdue my reaction to it, having seen the two projects the other way around. Time will tell, I suppose. I have a feeling that my personal love for Jedi: Fallen Order will beat them both!

Will be watching The Rise of Skywalker for a second time on Monday. I think you're spot on, I think a second viewing will be much more enjoyable, at least from a popcorn perspective.

The Sisters Brothers. Powerhouse performances from Joaquin Phoenix, John C Reilly, Riz Ahmed and Jake Gyllenhaal. I can't make my mind up about that ending though.

@Gremio108 I've been wanting to see that for ages now ages now and it's just come on NOW TV, so will be giving it a watch soon.

A Simple Favour. All over the place, seems to shift genres every 10 mins and so wants to be Gone Girl or The Girl on the Train. But Anna Kendrick and Blake Lively are really compelling to watch and almost manage to make it better than those two films. Very dark humour to which i dig.

1917 is definitely a film to see on the big screen my wife and I thought it was excellent.

@Arugula I totally understand what you mean in the sense that I genuinely don't know if I liked Joker or not. I went to see it in 60mm at the local arthouse cinema and it was beautifully shot and Joaquin Phoenix was outstanding but the film just rubbed me up the wrong way. It felt like a great movie held back by Todd Phillips' direction. He's the one up for Best Director everywhere but let's be honest, Bohemian Rhapsody won Best Editing at the Oscars so awards mean nothing

Watched Shazam last night and despite not really enjoying the DCEU movies other than thinking Wonder Woman was alright, I actually enjoyed it a lot. Didn’t take itself too seriously, poked fun at the rest of DC and was a good fun romp. A true popcorn movie and there’s nothing wrong with that when so many other blockbusters are trying to be more and falling short.