Topic: Souls-likes (& dislikes)

Just thought it could be a decent idea to have a thread dedicated to the sub-genre as a whole as opposed to the individual games that sit (or don’t depending on your point-of-view) within it.

A long story short, I’m a massive fan of these games and am yet to play one that I didn’t enjoy. So much so that I tend to ration myself by only playing two souls-likes per year, firstly to ensure that I always go in fresh each time for maximum enjoyment and secondly so I don’t just burn through them all and have none left in the backlog 😅.

So the main reason for me starting the thread results from my recent time on The Surge 2 and the difficulty I’m having in ranking it amongst the other souls-likes I’ve played. It’s great, I’m thoroughly enjoying it… and there are things it does which genuinely add to the formula but I’d still really struggle to place it above any of the sub-genre’s stalwarts. It does have its issues, those being it looks poor and seems to be pretty short… but apart from that it has well and truly scratched the itch. Special mention must go to the directional-parry system and the stellar level-design… also the combat in general has been sped up considerably since the original while maintaining the cool (and very useful) dismemberment function.

I think I’m basically in the camp of… From Soft’s games being out in front but that The Surge 2 offers the closest approximation of their games, while arguably improving on the combat. The Nioh games are also great (arguably better than The Surge 2) but their spin on the genre is even more combat-focused, while far less emphasis is placed on the exploration of labyrinthine level-design. The other games that I’ve played that would be considered souls-likes would probably come in a fair bit under this Nioh/The Surge tier, including Code Vein, Immortal Unchained, Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order, Lords of the Fallen etc. and while I enjoyed them all on their own merits, they ended up falling a little short.

I’ve still got a few souls-likes tucked away for a rainy day (Steelrising, Hellpoint, Chronos before the Ashes, Mortal Shell, Thymesia, Shattered: Tale of a Forgotten King, Decay of Logos, Sinner: Sacrifice for Redemption, Dolmen… Stranger of Paradise?) and there are some games still to be released that look awesome too (Lies of P, Black Myth Wukong etc.) but what will it take for a game to be generally considered a best in class… ie better than one made by From Soft game?

It’s an interesting topic, because the Souls-like subgenre has really taken off and yet is still quite hard to define. I think some people errantly call any difficult action combat-based game a Souls-like. To me there’s got to be a loss of progress assets upon death (and probably a requirement of having a reclamation of said assets upon returning to the location of death) and an enemy respawn mechanic at the rest point/respawn point in play to be included. I’m not sure if all would agree on those criteria, or have additional criteria to include. Maybe I’d also include methodical, timing-based, and tactical pattern-based enemy combat, as well as large and difficult area bosses as other required characteristics, but those are hardly game design elements unique to the Souls games.

I consider Jedi Fallen Order a Souls-like because it has all those things, but it does have a difficulty slider and I wonder if the Souls veterans would omit it from the subgenre for that reason. I’m not sure how many of those others that @colonelkilgore listed also have difficulty options to make the game more approachable.

Pedantic definitions aside, it’s a subgenre that I’ve gradually become more enamored with. I’d have to agree with the colonel though that in my limited experience, the From games still hold up as the best in class. I’m not sure why that is, but again, I’ve only played about 5 of these (3 From and 2 non-From) and so speak from a place of relative ignorance.

It will be good to see in comments from this thread how people feel about the non-From games, where the subgenre is headed, and what the general feeling is about the explosion of the Souls knockoffs.

@Th3solution yeah, that’s a good point about the nailing down of the definition(s) that quantify a souls-like. Personally I look for similar things to the ones you listed, namely:

1. Souls: (or the equivalent proxy) that is earned by defeating enemies and is used as both xp and currency.
2. Corpse-run: on death the accumulated souls proxy is dropped and the player has one chance to earn it back.
3. Bonfires: (or the equivalent proxy) a rest stop that restores player health etc. but also respawns enemies.
3. Labyrinthine level design: an intricate game environment that contains shortcuts that can be opened to expedite travel.
4. Deliberate combat: combat where button-mashing has no place.
5. Badass boss fights: yup not exclusive to souls-likes… but a souls-like must have them.

There might be some other fundamentals that I’m not accounting for but that’s basically it I reckon. 🤔

I really love the "labyrinthine level design" in these games. Especially when a shortcut might give you a better understanding of the map of the game. In Dark Souls you have hundreds of these moments where you turn a corner or jump down somewhere and end up somewhere you were before. And that's nots something annoying in the game at all, on the contrary, you'll be like "so that's how everything's connected".

I think Jedi Fallen Order had amazing shortcuts, and great level design, but the map already showing them to the player sometimes ruined these "aha!" moments.

@Kidfried Dark Souls was definitely a masterclass in level design and genius inter-connectivity. I do wish they had opened up a fast travel system a little sooner because there was still quite a bit of trekking back and forth between areas and even with the shortcuts there’s the chance you fall off a ledge or die to a random enemy on the way from area A to area B. But I also understand the design choice by FromSoft to not let you fast travel until late game so that you’d really learn the layout well by repeatedly going back and forth. I also neglected to use Homeward Bones early in my playthrough, which could have saved me some headaches, since they are a modified fast travel, albeit only one-way, back to the last bonfire.

I hear that Dark Souls 2 is much more linear in that regard, so I’m curious how I’ll like it. Apparently the less labyrinthine maps are one of the biggest complaints. I’m still excited to give it a try though.

I do think my next Souls-like will be Jedi Survivor though. I’m in the mood for some Star Wars content and I anticipate the story to be a large part of the experience and it will be good to get in on it early before spoilers.

Like @colonelkilgore I’ve got a lot of Souls-likes in the backlog stable though. DS2, DS3, ER, and Nioh 1, Nioh 2. On PS+ I have access to The Surge, The Surge 2, Mortal Shell, Ashen, and Chronos (and Code Vein if I ever wanted to retry that), and probably others that I don’t even know about.

I’m quite intrigued by Lies of P; it looks the most fetching of the forthcoming and new release Souls-likes. We’ll have to see how the reviews turn out though.

That’s a great list of criteria though, @colonelkilgore and I think we can adopt it into the ‘Manual of Terminology and Definitions in Video Games, ver. 4.7.23.001’
😄

@colonelkilgore Have a look at (if you haven't already) a YT channel called Iron Pineapple - he posts tons of videos about the lesser "Souls" clones.

@Th3solution I actually forgot all about Ashen… good shout! That was a real decent stab at an open-world souls-like pre-Elden Ring (really tough platinum too). Yeah I’d recommend Ashen to anyone that has polished off all of the From Soft games and is still hungry for more.

@LN78 I’ve stumbled upon pineapple a few times during my time looking for souls-likes. Gawd he’s found some dodgy PC-only games in his time… the odd hidden gem too of course. I’ll give his newer content a look though, see if he’s upturned any lesser-classics lately 👍

Souls-likes is a genre that I really want to get into. I played through Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne years ago but I grinded in both games and it kinda ruined my experience of these games. It didn't feel like I completed them "fairly", as I vividly remember just button mashing towards the end of the game and it didn't feel satisfying at all.

In other words, I don't really feel like I've fully experienced a Souls-like game yet. I know that there are games like Jedi Fallen Order, which I have played, but I'm looking more at games like Dark Souls, Demon's Souls, Elden Ring, Sekiro, NiOh and so on. If I could just play through one of these games from beginning to end normally, then I'd be very content with myself.

Contrary to what some people say, I think it's great that the genre has exploded in popularity and we're seeing tons of these games. It's a good gameplay formula. I just wish I could play more of them. I do think the one I want to play next would either be Dark Souls 3 or Demon's Souls on PS5. But considering I'm playing a challenging game on PS5 now (Returnal), I think it'll be a while before I play a Souls-like game.

So just finished The Surge 2 and I have to say… it was excellent. Easier and I think a bit shorter than the original but better game world, lore… and very playable. It’s very sad that Deck 13 appear to have moved on from the genre as this third effort (the first being the original Lords of the Fallen) is if not the best, very close to the best non-From souls-like I’ve played and they only appear to improve with each game they make. Oh well, I’ll certainly be looking forward to Atlas Fallen… even though it’s ‘just’ an action rpg 😉.

@colonelkilgore Glad you enjoyed it, I do think that Deck13 add their own uniqueness to the souls formula rather than just trying to imitate it. I've yet to play Surge 2 but did enjoy Surge 1 and even to a lesser extent lords of the fallen which most people didn't seem to like, I thought it was a good attempt although the combat And movement was a bit too slow for me.
Atlas fallen is looking interesting, not so sure about The Lords of the fallen (a different developer)I can't believe they are seriously going with that title although they probably don't want people to know it is a sequel. 🤔

In other news, I'm playing Demon's souls remake ATM, despite completing this twice on the PS3 the game still makes me anxious.

I know… absolutely ridiculous that they went with the same name 🤣. Yeah Demon’s Souls has an atmosphere alright… Latria is almost survival horror 😅.

@colonelkilgore Would you recommend skipping The Surge and going straight to The Surge 2, especially for time-strapped gamers like me? Or would it be difficult to understand, either narratively or gameplay-wise? My thinking had been that if I ever get around to the Nioh’s that I feel like I need to start with the first one, even if the sequel is more refined, since I feel like I’d have to understand the whole stance system or whatever it is that sounds like it’s unique wrinkle on the formula. I’m not sure about The Surge’s dependence on any pre-existing familiarity.

@Th3solution it’s a good question bud… and I think the answer would be different for different people. I think that given the fact that you’re already strapped-for-time, that skipping the first one would probably be a good idea. The combat is similar, if evolved a fair bit from that of the original… but it’s very intuitive and I think the fact you have experience of souls-like combat in ‘general’ would see you okay. Narratively speaking, you could watch a catch-up vid on YouTube detailing the events of the first one… or there’s also a load of Audio Logs throughout the sequel that offers some context. Who knows, you might end up liking it enough that you may consider going back to the original anyway.

If you do end up giving it a go I’d be real interested to hear your thoughts as it really does fit that hidden gem status for me, so the more people who play it the better as far as I’m concerned.

@colonelkilgore Thanks, that helps. Follow up question then — The Surge 2 or Nioh? 😅

It’s probably an academic question since my charted path is: Dark Souls 2 —> Dark Souls 3 —> Elden Ring. Then maybe Nioh or The Surge. But by then there might be Bloodborne 2!!

@Th3solution I’d definitely go with your current plan of action right now (& am jazzed that you’ve decided to give Dark Souls 2 a chance… just be sure to focus on getting your Adaptability stat up to around 22 asap).

So the first non-From souls-like that I played was Nioh and it was awesome fair play. The combat is phenomenal and some of the boss fights are tough-as-nails. The only thing I missed was the exploration aspect tbh. I mean, Team Ninja did try… but due to the game’s format it just feels like levels rather than a game world. There are short-cuts to open up and some of the levels are well done in regards to being intricately-designed but overall it was in stark contrast to From Soft’s output. The Surge on the other hand tries it’s best to fulfil that exploration element too. I wouldn’t say that it matches From Soft’s world design (particularly in the aesthetic aspect) but I do find it has a number of those moments from Dark Souls when you take that lift down from below the gargoyles and end up back at Firelink shrine.

Personally, I’d probably suggest trying Nioh first of all of the non-From souls-likes… just because it’s so different. Then if you end up fancying something a bit more similar (albeit with a sci-fi paint-job) The Surge 2 would be a good option. Either way, you still have a few hundred hours left with From Software right now… and don’t forget Sekiro. I didn’t fully connect with it in 2019 but my second playthrough last year blew my doors off. A top 10 game of all time for me now!

I really liked Sekiro but hit a wall with Genichiro Ashina.

@woollypump yup… many people do bud. Hit a bit of a wall at Genichiro myself… the mad thing is that he’s just the first wall, there are quite a few others on the way to that platinum. It probably sounds crazy but that gradual improvement made from continuously hitting your head against that brick-wall causes such a satisfying sensation when victory is finally achieved. I watched a vid last night funnily enough where a dude was going through Sekiro for the plat… and I missed the hell out of the struggle 😅

@colonelkilgore That sounds good. Sekiro will be on the “maybe” list to have somewhere after Elden Ring.

I actually am going to give in to my Star Wars fandom and play Jedi Survivor as my next in the class, but I still expect to get to DS2 later this year. If so that will make for 3 Souls-likes this year, which is a good clip. With a dash of FF16, HFW, and perhaps Spidey 2 and a sprinkling of indies and shorter palate-cleaners in between, I reckon I’ve got a pretty full plate for 2023. In fact, now that I say all that, it’s a lot. Fitting in GoWR is also on the agenda, depending. …Can we order up another pandemic shut-down, please? I have some gaming to catch up on.

Trouble is that I work from home now, so it wouldn’t change anything for me personally (unlike the 2020 pandemic when I got to play a ton). Maybe we could order a pandemic that affects laptops too 🤷🏽

@colonelkilgore Yes — laptops but not consoles. Or phones. But it can affect Facebook and Twitter, that’s fine. In fact, all social media can disintegrate for that matter. But just leave the PSN fully functional. And all my streaming services. 😄