Topic: User Impressions/Reviews Thread

Wow, this thread has wandering into some pretty deep philosophy all of a sudden.
I think I just had a brain aneurysm just trying to effectively comprehend infinity. 😂

Joking aside, I do think our minds tend to gravitate toward concrete and measurable analytics. We like definitive concepts. So a numbers system to quantify a purely subjective and abstract thing such as an opinion about a piece of art (because gaming is an art form after all, right?) is easier for our minds to comprehend.
...well, I keep saying “we” but perhaps I shouldn’t speak for all humankind — I should say my mind likes to measure and objectively restrict information into a digestible number or quantity. I can only assume most people’s minds are attracted to a number system because critical reviews most commonly do ratings, even if it’s a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Perhaps it’s my short attention span born of the fast paced internet age that is geared toward a bite sized representation of a person’s opinion. I very much doubt critics during the English Renaissance period said, “Bill Shakespeare’s new play Romeo and Juliet was fantastic. I give it a 10/10!” 😂

Certainly I appreciate all forms of user reviews, those with number ratings and those without. I try to read the text though to make my own conclusions. Everyone here does such an outstanding job of expressing their thoughts, views, and opinions, that it is always easy to get the full gist of their review, with or without a number. Sometimes my reviews will have a number, sometimes not. It will depend on my mood.

I wouldn't say a 10/10 means it's perfect. The way I see it, 10/10 just means it's 95% or more, but using nicer round numbers. So a 10/10 game doesn't have to be perfect, as it can still have that 5% leeway.

So for me, a 10/10 isn't perfect, but it's close to that, and the game will be very hard to top.

@KratosMD Well, given that my first experience with game reviews was reading the Official UK PlayStation Magazine, which literally quantified its scores by saying "anything we give ten is a perfect game", I can totally see where the misconception would arise. This is something all art struggles with. You simply cannot accurately and identically grade movies, television shows, songs, albums, paintings or games, and yet that magazine wanted to have a nice big table on its back pages every month, showing every game, with a number next to it, for its readers as a guide.

You've hit upon a really crucial point, though, about a game's temporal context. That same magazine as above would periodically return to older games and re-review them, very rarely allowing its previous review scores to stand. They originally gave the tenth-greatest PSone game of all time, Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace, a nine out of ten but then, several years later, returned and lowered it to a six (which, even I've got to admit, was fair enough) because consumers were looking to them for an honest appraisal and, by that point in the PSone's lifecycle, games had moved on.

It's kinda why I'm glad that I don't put scores on my reviews, because I've been playing a lot of older games this past year and I couldn't even begin to put a 2019 / 2020 accurate number against things like inFAMOUS, Rainbow Six: Vegas and Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Angel of Darkness. It'd be impossible for me, and might mislead a lot of people who skipped to the score.

@Ralizah That's also an excellent point; the risks taken to achieve greatness almost guarantee some flaws in the final product. It's about how tolerable those flaws are, really, and how the rest of the experience helps you forgive them. There's always one actor in the film who's less-than-perfect, always one chapter of a book that feels like expositional padding, etc. and it's the same with games. Thanks for noting that, as it's important to keep in mind.

@Kidfried Hey, speak for yourself, my circle-drawing skills are pretty darn accurate!

@Th3solution I agree with your musings on how we've arrived at numbered, quantifiable review scores for art, but I dread to think where it's headed. There's already a schism developing between "critic" and "user" scores for many Hollywood films, and the sickening way some game developers will or won't have job security based on their latest creation's Metacritic score is a disturbing trend that's hollowing out the core of Triple-A games development. It's why, whilst I find all this debate interesting and, again, have zero issue with those wanting to assign scores to their experiences, I'm dead against review scores in general, and wish we'd do away with them completely.

Oh, and that Bill Shakespeare guy couldn't write for toffee. Romeo & Juliet is a six, at best.

@Th3solution It's funny that you should mention Shakespeare in a discussion involving the nature of infinity - in his 18th Sonnet he mused on the legacy of his own works and described his plays as "eternal lines" which would last "so long as men can breathe, or eyes can see" (I had to google the wording I'll admit), which actually makes him sound like a bit of a big-headed pillock, although in his defence he has been proved right up to now.

Slightly more on-topic, I also subscribe to the theory that a ten-out-of-ten does not mean perfection, as I think most sensible people do. That's the beauty of this thread (and others like it) for me: the fact that it's patently clear that any rating anyone applies is their own personal rating, which is why we're thankfully spared the "I can't believe you gave such-and-such a seven you vile creature!!!" comments which come bundled in with any official review. When it comes to scores in official reviews, I'm with @RogerRoger completely - I'd be perfectly happy if they were outlawed tomorrow, as they are simply serving to feed the beast that is Metacritic.

@Kidfried I'd have no hesitation in giving Suikoden II an Infinity-out-of-Ten.

This is kinda why I have given, every now and again, and think I'll return to permanently using two scores to my reviews.

My score, that allows me to be as emotionally charged as I darn well please but also have a second more professional score with me being a bit more objective about it as I know it'll not be to everyone's taste and I can/have a habit of overlooking things that I know will annoy the hell out of others

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy That's actually an idea I've toyed with somewhat, and, if I return to scoring games, might employ. Especially when it comes to well-designed games that I just don't like for whatever reason (a common enough occurrence for me).

For me it's more I probably wouldn't want overhype/oversell something for the most part @Ralizah (A certain game I'm playing at the moment for example is on it's way to achieve high praise by the time i'm finished with it should it carry on as is...)

I'd hate for someone to go out their way and get a title I've praised only to be disappointed or worse (Though I honestly doubt it would happen, I'd still be a bit paranoid about it)

I think at 2000-3000 words though my reviews are fairly thorough so I could probably get by without putting a number at all... It does admittedly make it easier to quantify though... A nice baseline for future reviews too

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy I'm not too worried about that possibility, personally. People will always have their own reactions to stuff, so I just kind of expect them to realize they may not adore something as much as I do. If I didn't enjoy D:OSII very much, for example, after reading the inevitable glowing review you're likely alluding to, I wouldn't think: "She lied to me! This isn't nearly as engaging as she made it out to be. I'm never trusting her opinion again." I'd think, instead: "I guess she enjoyed facets x, y, and z of this game more than I did, although I can probably see why someone would really like them the way they currently are."

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy I agree with @Ralizah, when I'm reading a review if l buy a game based on that recommendation, I'm not gonna hold anything against them if I don't like the game. I think you would have to be quite a spiteful person to do so. It is only one person's opinion after all.

Shenmue
Dreamcast, PC, PS4 (version played) and XboxONE / December 1999

"I see."

That monotone response may have become something of a meme, thanks to protagonist Ryo Hazuki robotically repeating it over and over during the course of Shenmue, but it also helpfully illustrates my deadpan reaction to having finally played and completed this historic game. Yu Suzuki's labour of love might be responsible for many modern gaming mechanics, but retrospectively returning to such a groundbreaking release is a big ask, and certainly needed a bit more effort put into its "remaster" (word used generously) to make it worthwhile.

But seriously, those mechanics. Shenmue has everything we take for granted, everything we like (and sometimes dislike) in 21st Century games. It gave birth to QTEs and solidified the sandbox side quest. Its neat little touches, like its day-night cycle and realistic weather patterns, are background effects we barely even notice nowadays but, back then, they were major selling points. Even when it doesn't implement something, you can see the seeds of inspiration it planted in others. Whenever I was told to "come back tomorrow" and faced thirty-plus minutes of waiting, I half-expected a PS Store pop-up to coax a couple quid from my wallet in order to speed things up.

Alas, no such luck. Spending downtime with Ryo (an 80s jacket-and-jeans combo on a quest to avenge his murdered father) can be pretty cool at first, and as the game's then-original USP the appeal is evident. Today, however, a handful of wonky minigames and repetitive NPCs aren't enough to keep us reaching for our smartphones and checking headlines. I'm somebody who likes to shut out all distractions whilst gaming and yet, twice, I left Ryo standing on a street corner and called friends for a chat, just to kill the time.

Road to Nowhere: I don't know why he's running like that, as there's nowhere he really needs to be for the next twenty-four hours of game time.

Some of the NPCs I was supposed to be talking to in those spare hours simply didn't appeal. Many had charm, and not all were as wooden as YouTube "Voice Acting Fails" compilation videos would have you believe. I warmed to the well-meaning Fuku-san, a student of martial arts who acts as a younger brother figure to Ryo, and housekeeper Ine-san, who worries like all maternal figures do. There's also a great frenemy relationship with a chap called Guizhang, and a handful of shopkeepers and neighbours frequently made me smile, either by being goofy or charming (or both). But there's also a painful romance sub-plot featuring Nozomi, a stereotypical wide-eyed schoolgirl with whom Ryo has zero chemistry. Whenever this narrative element would forcefully rear its lifeless head, I would chuckle at how Ryo seemed to be awkwardly terrified of her. I've seen arachnophobes react better to a tarantula.

Dojo Mojo: Give me a brotherly sparring session with Fuku-san over listening to Nozomi's breathless whining any day of the week.

Mild curiosity in the outcome aside, it's the trophies which pulled me through, pointing me in the direction of several easily-overlooked side quests and character touches out of necessity more than anything. There's a lot you can miss in Shenmue, with entire pages of Ryo's chronological diary left blank in my playthrough as I just figured stuff out quicker than some of the clues and hints. That isn't a boast, but more of an indictment of how stupid the game assumes everybody to be. Ryo will gormlessly repeat everything everybody says, often appearing to forget key events or ask redundant rhetorical questions in order to give us the opportunity to piece it all together, long after we actually have. This would be okay if there was a degree of complexity to proceedings, but the straightforward soap opera plotting would've been a cliché back in 1999, let alone now. We're merely here to push the right buttons, in the right order, and watch it unfold.

This realisation hit me about halfway through. To begin with, roaming around Dobuita and playing detective was a novelty, and there was enough promise that things would eventually go someplace. There's even a move to introduce more wacky, supernatural elements (albeit in very small doses) and, for a couple hours in the middle there, I was hooked.

And then Ryo got a job as a forklift truck driver. Almost instantly, Shenmue becomes a boring slog to stick with. This might be an accurate reflection of real life, with fun grinding to a halt once you have to earn a living, but I can't help picture several gamers working in the cargo management business, getting home from a long shift and relishing their evening's entertainment, only to find themselves repeating a truncated, virtual version of their day. I don't know about you, but I'd start crawling the walls.

Forking Hell: Doing this for one day was charming. Doing it for a second was pushing it. Doing it for five days felt as though somebody was trolling me.

Yu Suzuki must've known these forklift sequences were dull, too, because they're regularly interspersed with more action-based QTEs and punch-ups. I lost count of the amount of times my shift would be interrupted by a couple of thugs, who I'd effortlessly beat down and warn to stay away, only to see them return later and try again (clearly, they're about as bright as Ryo). This gameplay loop repeated itself a couple times too many and, as the game's major climax, felt like cheap padding. What's worse is that, for the first time, Ryo is suddenly earning quite a lot of yen, and yet you're barely given any time to spend it. By the time you're walking back through Dobuita every evening, all the shops are shut, and there's only so much retro arcade you can squeeze in before Ryo starts reminding you to head home. Everything just feels off-balance, like it wasn't properly thought through, with features haphazardly stacked atop features like so many cargo crates.

And then it goes and ends on a freakin' cliffhanger!

But that's okay. I'd have been gobsmacked back in 1999 but on current consoles, Shenmue arrives on a single Blu-Ray disc alongside its sequel. This may seem like a bargain but, given how its PS4 re-release is more of a straight port than a remaster, anything upwards of a crisp twenty is asking a lot. There's been a bare minimum of work behind upgrading anything, a constant reminder of which is the forced 4:3 aspect ratio of all cutscenes, however brief. I grew accustomed to the clunky old controls (although my right index finger could've done without "sprint" being mapped to R2) and came to appreciate the game's art style (which can be quite beautiful at times, in a minimalist sort of way) but when every single corner has been cut, leaving frayed edges untrimmed and tatty, you can't avoid sensing the rush to make a quick buck. At least, after @Kidfried had kindly warned me, I didn't encounter any bugs. The bus failed to turn up once, but that felt more like a realism feature than broken code.

Boxed In: Those who hate ever-changing aspect ratios should resign themselves to seeing a square screen throughout, as cutscenes come sandwiched between bars of darkness.

Despite all of the above, I liked it quite a lot. Not because of its notoriety, or even because it was somewhat compelling in parts. No, I liked it because I wanted to. I liked it because, back in the day, it was trying so hard to be different. I was nostalgic for a certain time in gaming history and, as an example of bravery in the face of technological limitations, Shenmue shines.

As a game to be played today, with all of its advancements refined by others ever since?

There's nothing that fits better than those two little words.

"I see."

@RogerRoger Nice impressions. I agree with you on pretty much all points. That being said, however, I really enjoyed the experience. Maybe not for what it was, but moreso for what it was trying to achieve. I think that's what you're getting at too in your conclusion. Whatever type of fun it was, I had fun.

@RogerRoger I’ve been playing through Shenmue too and I agree with most of your points. I sorta love the boredom though, it really is true to life. Except I can spend a whole day opening Kinder Surprises in Shenmue, which I probably couldn’t do in real life.

@Kidfried Yes, that's it exactly, thank you! It may not have been comparable fun, or even measurable fun, and it sure as heck didn't hold up to scrutiny, but it was enough to see me through. I was asked if I'd bother with the sequel earlier and surprised myself with an enthusiastic "Of course!"

@KratosMD I do feel like I've just watched a period movie. The whole "slice of life" thing is carried through, no matter how damaging Yu Suzuki's determination to stick with such an approach may be to more traditional gaming satisfaction in the second half. You're right, it made it a unique experience. Even when Ryo did something badass, like kick a football in a goon's face, it did have that everyman charm about it. Glad to hear that, likewise, you're gonna continue the story someday!

@nessisonett Send the Kinder Surprise chocolate my way. I'm one of those annoying people with the metabolism necessary to eat rubbish all day and suffer no ill effects. You can keep all the toys!

@RogerRoger Great post! Still never played this game, but the focus on realism and the mundane is interesting. I really like the line about "bravery in the face of technological limitations," because often what's so charming about games like this is that dissonance between the vision of the developers and the tools at their disposal.

Will you be playing the sequels?

@RogerRoger
I really enjoyed reading your Shenmue review. Chalk another one up to ‘the end experience is greater than the sum of its granular parts.’

Despite the recurrently thinly veiled adoration for the series, I haven’t plans to play it. Maybe that will change some day.

@Ralizah Thanks and yeah, it's a wonderful time capsule of a game (which, weirdly enough, might have lost something if the remaster had been a little better). I'm not sure I can freely recommend it but, if you're hankering for a reminder of days gone by, you can do far worse.

Absolutely will be playing Shenmue II at some point, yes, because it comes on the disc; I'll wait and see how that ends before buying the latest installment.

@Th3solution Yeah, as I said above, not sure I can strongly recommend it to anybody. I'm kinda sure you'd hate it if you played it at the wrong moment, but would find some value if you're looking to take a deliberate break from your standard gaming fare. At the very least, should it ever arrive on PS Plus, I'd suggest adding it to your Library, just in case!

I didn't even see you'd posted a review for Shenmue til ten minutes ago @RogerRoger!

Interesting stuff, especially as I'd heard quite a bit about the Shenmue series thanks to Gremio, Sammy and others... But only in the recent months.

Beyond joining Push Square in fact I'd never heard of it, especially as I never knew anyone with a dreamcast or even knew it was remastered... til I joined Push Square 😂

The review really reminds me of my Soul Reaver one... which is apt seeing as they're both first time playthroughs of a twenty year old game... Just you seem a smidge more positive about Shenmue

I don't think I could say the same as you did though to my Soul Reaver review and say you've convinced me to try it... Shenmue doesn't seem to even have an interesting protagonist or voicework to carry me through it like Soul Reaver did through it's dated gameplay... But... It is still on my radar and something very different so... who knows?

Enjoyable read once again! 😊

Great review @RogerRoger. Poor gormless Ryo. 😂 Did his romance with Nozomi work out, or did she run off with a a charismatic tarantula? Maybe these are these questions for the sequel.

I've recently been nostalgic for the '90's - I guess because it was when I was growing up - so I can certainly see the appeal of something like Shenmue. Not just as the piece of gaming history it is, but for the era it represents. It was no doubt an influential title and so seeing the genesis of that is kinda cool. I'm not sure the monotony of many elements you describe are for me necessarily, but the game as a whole seems something that every thirty-something gamer should perhaps experience.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Oh, it's certainly an acquired taste, so I wouldn't rush to add it to your shopping list anytime soon, no! Thanks for the review praise all the same.

@mookysam I can't even bring myself to care enough about Nozomi to make a similarly-decent joke regarding her fate. That's how bad her character was. If she turns up in the sequel, even briefly in a flashback, I'll scream. Literally scream.

Anyway, thanks! There's a fine line between "watching a half-hour Shenmue retrospective on YouTube" and "playing the entire game for yourself" if and when you wanna scratch that nostalgic curiosity itch, so tread carefully. If you have that desire, it'll see you through the first third, at least, but by then you'll have earned several trophies and so won't be able to walk away from it without a constant reminder of its incomplete status!

@RogerRoger I've only just noticed your Shenmue review, excellent stuff. Ryo and Nozomi must surely be one of the worst 'couples' in gaming history (if you can call them that)

When defending Shenmue, a lot of people tend to talk about how it was "good for the time", which isn't actually true. I played it in 2000, right on the back of Metal Gear Solid, and boy did it not wear that comparison well. It's hard to say what the appeal is, to be honest. But somehow it just hooks you in.

I'm looking forward to your Shenmue II write up, which I guarantee will include a word or two about wooden planks (and not as a description of Ryo, although it would be accurate)