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Topic: User Impressions/Reviews Thread

Posts 2,201 to 2,213 of 2,213

Th3solution

@Pizzamorg That was really an insightful and well illustrative review of AC Shadows. I’ve not played the game (not sure when and if I will) but I found your analysis really intriguing. Partly because I’ve been curious to see feedback about the game, which kind of got lost in the shuffle between so many feudal Japan action RPGs in recent years, but mostly because a lot of your criticism extends to gaming beyond just AC Shadows and applies to so many RPGs, open world games, and even games of a more linear variety which seem to go just a little too long. And sometimes way too long.

Excessive bloat in games is something I’ve been thinking about and have discussed around here on one of the threads recently. I ended up making a goal for this year to try mainlining one of these longer games to experiment with doing my own form of editing out superfluous content.

I’m not sure at what point games became too overstuffed with meaningless side quests, loot, upgrades, and repeated map locations. Having been a gamer going back to PS1, I know that mainstream games weren’t always like this. If we use the Ubisoft universe as a guide, it was probably AC Origins where it started and then escalated to the tipping point of Valhalla. Origins is the last AC game I’ve played and I quite enjoyed it, but I did end up skipping some of the content towards the end of the game and finished the game with some of the supplemental map areas unexplored. Although I spent a lot of time enjoying ancient Egypt, I could start to sense the creep of needless content toward the end.

But I don’t know if the Origins-Odyssey-Valhalla crescendo of playtimes and side content is a symptom of a more ubiquitous illness plaguing all games, or whether the series is the epicenter from whence the virus originated. I always look to The Witcher 3 as the game that may have inspired the movement toward epic open world gaming with copious side quests and map markers. But we really had some other 100+ hour single player games that predated that, like Elder Scrolls games and the Bethesda stuff. Maybe Skyrim is to blame. Regardless, the issue seems to be that somewhere along the way developers lost the art of meaningful material in place of filler, perhaps attributing some of those mega-popular epic RPGs success to sheer amount of content rather than quality of content.

It’s not all bad though, and I do think some games get it right. Having just finished Baldur’s Gate 3, clocking at just over 300 hours, I thought it was fantastic. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t start to waver around the 200 hour mark, thinking that I was drowning in a never ending quest log. However, each time I went out of my way to complete some optional quest, I almost always felt some satisfaction with it, even if it was purely fringe dressing on the main course. It definitely had some of the issues you mentioned about diminishing returns on the loot and gear you acquire through a meticulous playthrough. Especially since you (or at least I) hit the level cap when you’re only 2/3 through the game, and so any improvement in your spec from there is just fine-tuning things, hoarding potions and scrolls, and getting better at the strategy of the game. The depth of gameplay really helped here, because there really is so much openness to how one can approach battle, so there’s not any boredom that kicks in when you can experiment with different playable characters, roles, spells, weapons, and tactics.

Nevertheless, some of what you’re saying about AC Shadows really spoke to me on a larger scale. For example, another game I really quite enjoyed last year was It Takes Two, and yet, I think it went just a little too long and even though the gameplay constantly changes to help stave off any boredom, the core story suffered from the lack of focus and dragging pace of the narrative.

Games that hit the perfect balance of content value are rare, but do exist. A lot of it boils down to personal preference, of course.

[Edited by Th3solution]

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Pizzamorg

@Th3solution Appreciate the kind words!

I have been trying to place for myself too where this fracture started. I do think for my own personal experience, it is a more recent thing. In my late teens, early 20s, gaming was just one hobby of many because I had so much more free time. Because of this, I rarely pushed to finish games I had grown bored of, in fact there was a point well up until probably my mid 20s where despite gaming all of my life, I finished a tiny fraction of the games I bought. It is probably why so many games from like 2007 hold as such important games in my life, is the two or three games I beat that one summer break from school might have been the most amount of games I had completed like a decade either side of that.

It was only really in 2019 I think when I got a gaming PC for the first time since I was a kid, I really pivoted to making gaming my sole hobby focus (helped along I am sure by having far less free time to experiment with having multiple) and suddenly when I was now seeing almost every game through to the end that I could, I was like... WOW games sure are long, huh?

But I do think your point around level caps is kind of the main issue for me too, weirdly enough. In the sense that a lot of the time I don't even necessarily think the length of games is as much the issue as is that the quality is not stretched along with it. Odyssey was able to sustain me for a 90 hour playthrough because the various systems underpinning the experience were designed for a game to be played for that length of time.

I think of a recent example like Dragon Age Veilguard, where for the last 20 or so hours effectively you run out of long term progression entirely and at least for my tastes, when a game becomes static in that way, you've effectively lost me. Valhalla tried to solve this same issue by making the largest skill tree known to mankind, but this isn't the solution either. Veilguard's skill tree probably needed to be three times as big as it was, but if they achieve that with '+1 percent crit damage' nodes, you've actually just compounded the problem, you haven't fixed it.

And that is I guess the weird thing about these conversations, is I have almost the opposite problem to many. I actually think the live service looter rpgification of a lot of genres is actually a positive for my tastes. You take pretty much any game and slap a loot system onto it, my interest in that game has automatically gone up, and you've probably tempted me to try something I wouldn't have otherwise tried. I love fashion end game in loot games, playing around with transmog to make the perfect look.

But Shadows and Valhalla both failed to me at different levels, because while the loot systems got me in the door, the loot lacked the evolution and transformation to hold me until the final hours, when all the other shaky parts around it began to crumble and fall apart.

If that makes any sense whatsoever.

Life to the living, death to the dead.

Th3solution

@Pizzamorg I found myself really getting into the fashion options in the late game for BG3, so I can understand where you’re coming from there. It was especially enjoyable because I had a party of around 10 characters and all armor, all camp attire (the casual clothes you wear at camp, if you’ve not played it), and all undergarments are wearable by all characters. Then on top of that there’s late game dyes for clothing you can find and basically change the color schemes of your outfits too. So the combinations are nearly endless and are a nice distraction when there’s no more leveling up to do.

Sometimes the fashion looting doesn’t work out though, and many games I’ve played with copious outfitting collectibles don’t hold my interest enough to inspire me to pour over the countryside looting chests and dead bodies. Jedi Survior comes to mind. Loved the game, but the cosmetic rewards for the side activities and exploration weren’t enough to motivate after I had my 10th saber casing and 15th hair style. I collected all the suits in the Spider-Man games but only wore like 3 of them. Loot that gives extra skills or defense definitely holds my interest more, and so I definitely agree on the idea of the loot needing to be transformative or somehow to evolve, whether it be in the gameplay department or creativity department.

And that’s a good point about the absolute runtime not being the issue per se but whether the game was built to go that long. The Souls games are good about this — they tend to be on the longer side (I can’t remember my exact game time with DS2 last year but I believe it was north of 100 hours) but you always feel like you’re leveling up, either literally with skill points, or tactically with new challenges from the late game enemies and the constant spectacle of the art design. The games are really good about having copious weapons, all of which feel different to use, and your build and leveling choices make tangible differences to how the game feels to play, so you really feel invested deep into the game.

[Edited by Th3solution]

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Tjuz

[Edited by Tjuz]

Tjuz

Tjuz

[Edited by Tjuz]

Tjuz

Ralizah

@Tjuz No worries. The type of reviews that overflow the word limit for individual posts are EXACTLY the sort of content this thread is meant to host.

Great review! It definitely hits on the highs and lows of these more old-fashioned JRPGs... wonky systems and subpar tutorialization, but also tighter pacing and writing, and, crucially, charming characterizations that hit on a variety of different tones and moods. One thing I love about older JRPGs is that, no matter how serious they got, they also rarely avoided the opportunity to be silly at times, and I think that's a quality that's sorely missing in the current industry. I also feel like the pixel art creates enough distance from realism for these shifts to not be jarring (imagine Sabin suplexing the phantom train in PS5 graphics!)

Interesting approach to an affinity system. I liked the social links in Persona quite a bit, as well as the systems in Fire Emblem (especially Three Houses, with its heavy Persona influence), but will confess that Xenoblade 1 drove me crazy with the affinity stuff. I'm curious to see where I'll land when I eventually play this.

True enough about the lack of pure sci-fi settings in JRPGs, even today. Although I do think pure fantasy settings, like in Lunar and Dragon Quest, also became rarer, with the science-fantasy model picking up in the 16 bit era. I think that's actually part of what gives DQ its own sort of unique appeal today: you don't need to worry about the story collapsing into sci-fi tropes.

I think Monolith Soft has historically done best with this: Xenogears, all of the Xenosaga games, and Xenoblade Chronicles X all feel like almost pure sci-fi (with some fantastical elements, but nothing that would push them into the science-fantasy realm). And while it's science-fantasy, I did enjoy the much heavier sci-fi influence on Xenoblade Chronicles 3 compared to the previous two.

If you've never played the Phantasy Star games, they also tend to lean a little more heavily into the sci-fi side of things. Particular II and IV.

I expect you'll probably enjoy the remake of Star Ocean 2, considering the remake has been highly praised, and it's regarded as one of the best entries in the series.

[Edited by Ralizah]

Currently Playing: Resident Evil Village: Gold Edition

PSN: Ralizah

DemonStar89

@Th3solution I love a good game that can give me plenty to do, but I think the points made about bloat are perhaps tied to other forms of media and how users/watchers/gamers expect to be able to consume content. We have huge franchises of shows especially, that have spin-off seasons for characters or time periods in-universe (big examples being Game of Thrones and Star Wars). Perhaps this is catering to the "we always need more and can't let our favourite thing end" flavours of media output & consumption.
That's not an argument for it being always bad or always good, just noticing a trend that may or may not be attractive to certain types of people... we're all different!

'It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life." - Captain Picard

Th3solution

@DemonStar89 This is true. A version of ‘bloat’ can sometimes be from cross media content not letting an IP rest in our minds.

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Th3solution

@Tjuz Wow, a really great review! I’m glad that you seemed to enjoy Star Ocean, despite some of its quirks and old school trappings.

You bring up some interesting contrasts between retro and modern RPGs, and games in general. I suspect Star Ocean wasn’t far removed from the era when games came with an instruction booklet that one had to read in order to understand its systems and setting. I wonder if a manual for this game would have explained some of the things you had to search around online for, or if it would have alerted the player to the unspoken effects of the background affection system. In my limited experience, those little tutorial books were not very comprehensive, but they usually contained some critical information in the day and age of not having very good internet resources to refer to. I even remember large full-sized strategy guides that you could buy as a supplement to those RPGs back then. I’m not sure if Star Ocean First Departure goes back quite that far, but it sounds like it still has some of the cryptic elements from that bygone era.

And I hadn’t thought of it quite in the way you describe, but I do agree that the modern game design seems averse to have missable content. Games mostly have maps and menus with checklists and frequent tutorials which permeate the experience all the way through. I think the death of game manuals began not only with evolution to include the tutorial during gameplay, but also with the introduction of loading screens where they started dropping instructions to the player during that downtime. Interestingly, now that loading screens are becoming a thing of the past, design has had to improvise again. Modern games I’m playing now have the option to stick around on the loading screen if wanted because otherwise they flash by so fast that you don’t have time to read them. Most of the tutorials are now imbedded in menus, and optional battle arenas.

But it seems clear, some of the purpose of hidden content and cryptic systems back then was to make the games replayable. In an era when there were a lot fewer options, it was nice to have a game you could play through a few times and get some slightly different wrinkles during the playthrough. Many games still do have multiple endings and optional missable content, but not quite in the same way. I’m not sure exactly how to describe it, but there’s definitely a difference. Maybe it simply has to do with the wealth of reference material we have now with online walkthroughs, YouTube tutorials and guides, and trophy checklists, as opposed to retro games where there simply was no way to find out some of the missable bits except for just brute forcing multiple playthroughs and obsessively checking everything in the game.

Personally, I’ve become spoiled by today’s game design and doubt that I would have the patience to teach myself the critical gameplay elements as you’ve described. The exception is the Souls games, and their retro style of throwing the player into the world and expecting them to figure it out does being another level of satisfaction that modern games lack. However, I think the difference is that there’s large volumes of organized and exhaustive reference guides online which makes them feel more manageable.

So do you have plans to proceed with the series straight away? Or even make another run through this one? Or has it whet your appetite for more retro JRPGs? (I feel a Final Fantasy attempt incoming…😅)

“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”

Pizzamorg

@Tjuz, not a lot to say on the title itself as it isn't one really on my radar, but I still thought it was a great piece of writing I am very jealous I didn't write myself 😂

Life to the living, death to the dead.

Tjuz

[Edited by Tjuz]

Tjuz

Scottyy

I tried Eternal Life of Goldman demo on PC and it looks incredible! If the price is not too steep, I'll there Day 1. This will be the talk of the town when it's released.

[Edited by Scottyy]

Scottyy

Pizzamorg

Rolled credits on Monster Hunter Stories 3 today.

I just kinda... wish I had more to say? But I just sorta… don’t.

In 2021, Stories 2 absolutely took over my whole world, man. I played over 100 hours of that on PC. I started another playthrough on Switch. I just don't usually do that with single player games, but that game it just sunk it's teeth into me so deep.

It took the core Monster Hunter formula I love, and translated it faithfully into other things I love, turn based party RPGs and monster catchers. Like it was basically my dream game, and by and large delivered in every way I could have ever hoped for.

Monster Hunter Stories 3 then, is in my mind, about as close to an objectively better game as a sequel can be. It took all of the best parts of the previous games, and refined them and polished them into basically their ultimate forms. It is hard to imagine how I could have loved 2 so much now I have beaten 3, thinking back to all of 2’s brutal difficulty spikes, and just how much friction was baked into so many systems there. 3 really feels like it went after every pain point in 2, maybe some you didn't even realise were pain points at the time, and fixes them.

There is just so much QOL and improvement of things everywhere, it cannot be understated. But I also wonder if maybe that is also sorta the problem with this one? Maybe it is too focused on the "mistakes" of the past, and isn't looking forward enough?

It is technically a true sequel, new setting, characters, story, mechanics etc but when I think about it, it is probably closer to those like JRPG re-releases or something, where they just release the same game again, but restore a bunch of cut content and refine the game feel and visuals and sell you it again at full price. Like it is reductive I suppose in a way to call it that, cause 3 is more than that, but honestly maybe it isn't enough more than that. Maybe it is too close to a Monster Hunter Stories 2 Royal than it is a Monster Hunter Stories 3. Maybe being in a no man's land between the 2 is a problem regardless of how close it leans to either or.

Maybe the problem is 2 already delivered me almost anything I could ever want from this concept, so that if you are going to just offer me more, and not something truly different, then actually I am already still full from my Stories 2 feast. And I get that sounds kinda strange, especially as trying new things can have disastrous results, but I am just trying to find any reason in my brain why I just never loved this.

Maybe it is just because you can beat it in around 40 hours, and there is zero content after the credit rolls (although you can go back to grind the game out and take on side content that sorta feels like it is designed to be played after you face the final campaign boss, but isn’t organised in that way), so it just doesn't have enough runway to take over your life like 2 did.

All I know, is there is just something missing here for me, and I don’t know what it is. I should love this game, it should take over my whole world like 2 did. But instead the credits rolled and I’m just sorta done.

It is an objectively great game that I think is still somehow just sorta okay.

[Edited by Pizzamorg]

Life to the living, death to the dead.

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