Are they any newer games like Dishonored etc (I believe ImSims are slightly different to RPGs, but share some similarities, especially certain games that have a lot of crossover) I feel like I kind of missed out on a generation of games like that. I played/watched a fair bit of Deus Ex with mates, but never owned it myself, and I'm not sure there are a lot of modern releases like these.
And knowing the type of games I enjoy now, I can probably guarantee they have some of the things I like to see. (Less hand holding, creative solutions, reactive worlds etc) I guess Hitman and Deathloop kind of put me off as they are based on repeating levels and run-backs kind of annoy me. But I'm not sure if there's any other games of the type?
Do you guys think First Light 007 might have some ImSim elements 🤔
@Ravix there is the System Shock remake which is apparently very good… and there will be the upcoming Judas and the apparent reboot of Bioshock. In all honesty though, I actually think that the Series X version of Prey may be your best bet in the short term. While it was an 8th gen game, it is supposedly excellent and is boosted by back-compact to 60 fps.
@Th3solution yeah you’re not the only one mate. I remember letting my mate borrow it back on PS3 and he just couldn’t get into it either. Out of interest, is it just Dishonored that you don’t jibe with, or do you just not get on with immersive-sims in general?
@graymamba I'll definitely check some System Shock gameplay at some point, cheers
I remember seeing a bit of Prey, but never playing it myself. Seen that it's on CryEngine too, which intrigues me as it is a great first person engine.
Ah, is that what Judas is. I keep seeing it mentioned during game reveal shows as it's highly anticipated, and remember the announce happened a while back, but couldn't remember anything else about it.
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@graymamba I’m not sure exactly what constitutes an immersive sim, to be honest. If I understand correctly, I do like the genre. Bioshock is a great game and especially Infinite is one of my all time favorites. I didn’t realize those were classed as immersive sims.
Games with choice and divergent outcomes are really a staple of my gaming diet. I guess to be considered immersive sims there has to be game world outcomes that are not pre-scripted? Like would Baldur’s Gate 3 be an immersive sim? Or something with multiple game pathways and endings like Detroit Become Human? Or something like MGS5 or Death Stranding which have multiple paths and approaches to get to a goal? GTA? The Assassin’s Creed and Ubi style open world games? Skyrim/Elder Scrolls? I know sometimes these genre’s overlap and have elements of several mechanics involved.
A more pure immersive sim like Hitman I just didn’t quite get enthused about. I enjoyed much of what I played of Hitman 1, certainly more than Dishonored, but after doing several levels, I did miss the cohesive narrative that most of the games I played have. I know it had a loose story, but obviously the attention was on the adaptability of play and openness of each stage. For me it was a tad overwhelming, and so I eventually fell off. I think that much of my gaming time is to destress from a life filled with problems to solve, and so the idea of puzzling out an approach to get through a level just wasn’t as relaxing as say, going through a linear story with Uncharted, or causally exploring around in Horizon Zero Dawn, or puzzling out one specifics boss in Dark Souls.
So, what’s the difference between an RPG and an immersive sim? Are the two labels mutually exclusive?
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@Jimmer-jammer Ah, ok I see. So an immersive sim is not necessarily making player choices with NPC interactions, morality choices, etc, but more so interacting with the environment.
Definitely Death Stranding would qualify, as I found out when I killed someone and had a huge crater on my map that I had to go around the rest of the game. 😅 Also with all the permanent roads, zip lines, ladders and pathways you can take to get from one place to the next. I really loved Death Stranding, so I think the immersive sim parts coupled with the co-existing narrative piece and other gameplay elements (like the shooting, stealth, vehicles, etc) made for a nice combo.
I think BG3 obviously is more RPG then by those criteria but there’s certainly the sim elements of making a choice that alters access to map areas or makes your journey harder or easier depending how you approach a situation and whether you get to use a part of the environment.
And @graymamba I think there’s a possibility that I didn’t really understand what Dishonored was before I went into it. I do remember being told that depending if I killed people or not or how evil I was that there would be changes in the game world with more rats or something like that. But in practice I think I was expecting a little more direction or narrative flow, so that may have put me off. Honestly, I’m embarrassed to say that some of it boils down to a prejudice I have against first-person perspective. For some reason I get along with it okay sometimes (Skyrim, Bioshock, Borderlands) but other times it turns me off.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution@Jimmer-jammer I actually dislike the nomenclature immersive-sim almost as much as character-action tbh… both terms do a ****-poor job of delineating the genres/sub-genres that they represent.
It’s difficult to breakdown the core concepts of an immersive-sim in simple bite-size bullet points but I’d probably go:
predominantly mission-based, with each mission taking place in its own open-environment.
Many ways to fulfil mission criteria depending on player build and choice, which allows player creative thinking.
a dynamic world
Verticality: in addition to each environment being a mini open-world, there is a considerable scope for traversing it underneath and way above the majority of its inhabitants.
while it’s possible to brute force, there is normally an emphasis on stealth.
you inhabit and fine-tune the games protagonist rather than build a character.
predominantly first person viewpoint.
There are probably a lot of things I’m missing but that’s a selection of the fundamentals I reckon.
@graymamba The Bioshock games are great. I actually started with Infinite as it was a PS+ game back on PS3 and later picked up the Collection. I actually remember playing a demo for the original early on in the PS3 era and thinking it wasn’t that great
The second game is quite divisive and I think Infinite is still my favourite, and the DLC for that is fantastic too. The ending for the main game is one of those ones that’s really stayed with me too.
@Ravix I’m struggling to think of many games of recent times that would fit with mamba’s description of the genre, mainly because most games in that vein these days would feel obliged to go open world. Maybe something like Control would sort of fit the bill?
@graymamba@The3solution Thank goodness, that’s a nice breakdown! I was falling into the mental black hole of arguing with oneself 😬 At one point I had myself convinced that Elden Ring is not an action rpg but is in fact an expressionist social strand immersive action simulator serving as a public service announcement about the dangers of eating poop.
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@Thrillho yeah I did try the original Bioshock back on 360… and I didn’t click with it. Looking back, I definitely think it was a me problem rather than the game. At that point I don’t think I had actually played an immersive-sim and I wasn’t really prepared for what it actually was. I’m relatively confident I’ll be a bit more receptive all these years (& games within the genre) later.
@Ravix did you play Indy, as I’ve heard that is fairly im-sim-ish?
@graymamba Thanks! Another entry to add into “Colonel’s Video Game Nomenclature” right alongside your definition of ‘Souls-like’ and ‘Trophy boosting’ 😄
And honestly by those principles, the game I recently played, Star Wars Outlaws fits every part except the primary first person viewpoint. It does switch to FP view when creeping through ducts and such, but otherwise it’s third person. It does have everything else, although it’s baked into an open world. But each little mission based area is its own open dynamic map to work your way through stealthily, including options to grapple up high sometimes and take routes above or below action to avoid encounters. Similar to MGS5 in that regard, although the missions are seamlessly connected through open world exploration and tasks you discover or sign up for. Anyway, it will probably scratch an itch for you when you run out of the other traditional immersive sims.
It’s funny because the term ‘immersive sim’ would make me think of games like PowerWash Simulator, or one of those other occupational sims. Like the farming ones or city building or whatever.
As far as Bioshock, it’s been a while since I played them, but they always struck me as just narrative FPS games. I think the creative choice of mission approach and the stealth are quite light in those. Heavier on the FPS gunplay and magic based attacks with the plasmids. I remember mainly just shooting stuff but perhaps I’ve forgotten the sim elements. To me the greatness with those game was in the philosophical narrative, mystery, twists, and character reveals.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution it is a genre that is particularly tough to nail down tbh… and there is some debate over whether the Bioshock series should be considered an immersive-sim. It’s difficult for me to go one way or the other on Bioshock atm as my experience of it was so brief and my memories of it so vague, so will be interested to see where I land on the subject when I play it again next year.
@graymamba@Herculean Yeah, it’s tough because we have to categorize these games into some kind of descriptors, otherwise they are difficult to market. I’ve read the little game summaries when I’m browsing on the PlayStation store and if the developer doesn’t really say what kind of game it is then it can be off-putting. Some games will have a vague descriptor like “Embark on a fantastic adventure in Legend of Kingdoms: Odyssey where you’ll face daunting enemies and make friends throughout a sweeping narrative…”. It tells a consumer nothing about what kind of game to expect and whether they would like the gameplay. But if it says something like “Legend of Kingdoms: Odyssey is an open world turn-based strategy game that has an epic narrative… (yada, yada)” then players have an idea immediately what to expect and whether to have any interest.
On the other hand, modern games don’t fit into one box anymore. Nearly all large budget games will borrow elements from multiple genres. So it does create some confusion. I was listening to Sacred Symbols where there was a write-in from a player who was all ruffled because they had mentioned that Claire Obscur was Sekiro-like and had Souls elements. Evidently this person was offended that a game having a parry mechanic automatically made it a ‘Sekiro-like’. So Dustin had to re-explain and defend his description of the game, noting that indeed one of the lead designers of Clair Obscur was a Sekiro speed-runner and the developer even said that Sekiro was a big inspiration for the game. Dustin explained that in truth, the parry mechanic in the game feels very satisfyingly like the Sekiro parry. And I think those details are important for a consumer to know because that focuses in on a group of players that will be interested in that. Many action rpg players are enjoying the game because of the real time parry and dodge mechanics and Souls-y elements, despite the genre of the game being a ‘turn-based rpg’ if one had to say. But how does a team effectively communicate what kind of a game it is to a potential audience? It’s a tough issue.
In addition to ‘immersive sim’, one of the other difficult ones for me now is ‘extraction shooter’. It’s come up a lot now with Marathon and Helldivers 2 and I’m not sure I really know what that genre is. Not sure how different they are from a ‘looter shooter’. It would probably make sense if I were to play any of these, but the description of the genre hasn’t compelled me to try any of them. They mostly seem multiplayer, although I guess it’s possible to have a solo focused extraction shooter, I don’t know. Regardless, it’s another label that confuses me.
@graymamba yeah, Indy is a top game, flew under the radar more than it should imo, but that's the usual game pass (and later port) deal. It is just about the right length, and the levels are very well designed though. I'm not sure if it's im-simmy but it definitely let you use your own brain and tackle problems, so maybe a bit of a similar spirit. Same as in KCD/II except that's in a massive open world RPG. I remember feeling very much at home with Indy though, as it isn't as basic in game/level design as normal mainstream fair. I'd sum it up as you actually have to play it and experience it, rather than mindlessly follow markers all the time, which means it's more enjoyable to play imo. Even in the segments where there's a more linear route in cave/climb sections, you still have to use your brain to some extent to actually follow that route.
I'd very much recommend the game, especially to those not averse to first person perspectives, as it really has to be experienced that way to work as a game anyway, so it's tough luck to the "make it third person" crowd, they don't know what they are missing out on with so many top FP games, I guess.
@Herculean While you may not get anything from a term which describes a genre (or sub-genre) many do. If the reader/listener/viewer understands the constituent parts that defines a genre, it provides an instant reference point of understanding.
I remember studying the issues that the French film critics of the 40’s had in defining Film Noir and establishing Auteur theory. Almost all their international peers thought they were ‘just being French’ and tried to poke holes but it eventually brought a whole new raft of great movies to the attention of cinephiles around the world, who up until that point had just assumed these movies were b-movie trash.
Knowing the genre of a game (or film, tv show or book etc.) prior to my consumption of it enables me to set expectations, as well plan something entirely different after it to palate-cleanse etc.
@Herculean yeah but genre labels are exactly what souls-like and immersive sim are. You may personally see them as marketing tools or not useful but I’d argue that’s simply your take. To drill-down, it like saying that racing game, beat em up, schmup, rpg, platformer are simply marketing tools or of no use. Sure there may be some residual help in selling the games via the understanding that the term provides to the end user… but they are fundamentally genre terms (or labels using your vernacular) and used accordingly.
The reason a percentage of the gaming-sphere have a reaction to terms like souls-like and immersive sim is because they are newer genres and therefore terms than the ones that have been around since the founding generations. In many examples, a lot of the pushback coincidentally comes from people who don’t actually play many of the games that the genre-terms that cause a reaction describe.
I think one of the most important things that a lot of people miss here is in relation to creativity and innovation… the things we prize in our artists and entertainers above all else. When we get to the point where a group of the audience feels it necessary to coin a term to describe a genre (or sub-genre) that up until that point had not been defined… it essentially means that something new had been created, rather than reiterations of what had come before. Sure, there then comes a slew of imitators and pretenders to solidify the need for the label… but it was all spawned by innovation.
Just finished off the second playthrough of Dishonored with no kills and no alerts. Oh my god was it easy compared to my trials and tribs with the equivalent playthrough(s) on Deus Ex: Human Revolution around 6 months ago.
Having said that though, I’d probably give the Deus Ex games the edge in terms of,s of which series I prefer. Both are great and it’s a fine line… but the Deus Ex seemed a bit deeper and more involved. Looking forward to seeing where i’ll rank Bioshock amongst these when I get to it next year.
I beat The Plucky Squire. Fun little game, with a whole load of gameplay variety with the mini games they have you doing. @KidRyan I got the remaining collectables by using chapter select to get the platinum trophy. I beleive whatever issues there were got fixed late last year.
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I beat The Plucky Squire. Fun little game, with a whole load of gameplay variety with the mini games they have you doing. @KidRyan I got the remaining collectables by using chapter select to get the platinum trophy. I believe whatever issues there were got fixed late last year.
That's a relief to hear, I'm glad that The Plucky Squire got patched!
I already platinumed it, working on Demon's Souls 2020 right now.
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