Topic: The TV Show Thread

@Pizzamorg that's the feeling I got while still watching. needed more episodes or an additional season for part 1. Halfway (or season finale) could have been Joel getting not impaled maybe. it's the best place for a cliffhanger anyway.

@zupertramp I feel like there's enough content in that first game to do a regular 22 episode season of TV, splitting it into four parts that cover the different seasons like in the game.

@Pizzamorg
Hard disagree, Last of Us is a 10 hour campaign, 12 at max, you can't stretch that out to 22 episodes that are 50-60 minutes each. 22 episode seasons are basically a complete thing of the past now and I don't miss them.

@PegasusActual93 if you're beating the first game in 10 hours you're rushing that game. Admittedly it is probably only 15 hours long, which is about as long as a 22 episode season is minus adverts.

@Pizzamorg @PegasusActual93 except HBO to my knowledge just doesn't do 22 episode TV. So I'm thinking two 8-9 episode seasons. Then you can have your long drawn out Frank and Bill episode, that in and of itself helps make the argument they could stretch out the campaign to whatever length they want, but then you can also take your time with Joel and Ellie's journey. Maybe even throw a few infected in your post apocalyptic zombie world.

@zupertramp
These days HBO only does 8-10 episodes per season. Their shows are also usually on the short end. They used to do 13 episode seasons (Sopranos, The Wire, Six Feet Under) but they haven't even done that in a good decade. I would have done 10 episodes for the Last of Us instead of 9 but 9 I can live with.

@Pizzamorg
10-12 is the average playthrough. I can't find a single playthrough on Youtube that exceeds 11 hours. Maybe there is an extra hour in there if it's your first time but in general games are not as long as people tend to paint them as because you aren't ever actually timing how long it took you to beat the game, only guessing.

@PegasusActual93

Even 12 hours would get you a good 17 to 18 episodes minus ads, rather than 9 episodes I believe this season is going to be?

What do you mean extra writing @Kidfried they have cut so much out of this game already? It woudn't be extra writing, it would be putting back in the stuff that gives the stuff they have adapted its meaning.

I will agree the combat encounters in the game probably won't make for the most exciting TV set pieces, they weren't even that fun in the game, but in my opinion anyway, this version of the story basically without any of them is a far worse version of the story, for the reasons I explained above.

In regards to your final question, a good scene is the scene with David in the cage, talking about how scared he is of Ellie and how dangerous she is. When this exchange happens in the game, you have controlled Ellie to kill maybe about twenty of David's people when you include the people Joel killed in the University as well. You also fought side by side with David and helped him clear out a massive wave of infected, including Bloaters and Clickers. This gave context for why they were hunting Joel and Ellie down, and then to that moment in the cage with that exchange. In the show they killed what, like three people at the University? And I think Joel killed all of them? And the infected stuff has been removed entirely now. So In the show what has Ellie done to illicit that exchange in the episode?

@PegasusActual93 I don't think anything on youtube is a very representative sample tbf. I've played both games collectively a dozen times and I don't think any playthrough has been under 12 hours. That seems like rushing it to me.

In any case, as I mentioned, all of the Bill/Frank backstory was created out of thin air and considered one of the better episodes so there's no reason to pretend, even if it's only a 10-12 hour campaign, that the story couldn't be built upon. Tess seems like a good example where her fate means a great deal more if we got to spend a little more time with her. Or I think most would agree the Jackson/U of E Colorado section was a tad rushed and maybe could have benefited from a bit more fleshing out. Throw in Ellie scrounging for supplies at the mall and having an intense encounter with a couple baddies (not dozens or anything) and a few more overall encounters with some clickers/runners for some suspense and yeah, it could definitely be longer and feel more like a proper journey.

@Pizzamorg i think they only killed one at the university. pretty lame. I'm not asking for 80's action hero type body counts here but it's like c'mon, there has to be some violence (and the very real threat of more at any time) for this story to work.

Yeah my latest playthrough was around 15 and I made a conscious decision to skip some optional paths because I couldn't be arsed to face any more Clickers and so stealthed around some encounters 😂 I think 12 or below is a rushed playthrough too, personally.

I still can't believe the University section in the TV show was turned into a single bookend at the end of one episode, which was already an extremely rushed adaptation of a lot of really key story moments that are not given a second to breathe at all in the show.

The slow realisation at the University that the Fireflies failed to make a Cure here at this University, and their wider ineptitude and lack of resource matters so much when it comes to how the game ends. I mean maybe less so now Part 2 has taken all the nuance of that ending away, but still. It is also important because the encounter with David's people is what allows everything that comes after in the winter section to exist and have meaning, but now that initial kindling is just a small scrap on some grass that looks like some local theatre is doing a stage play rendition of Last of Us in their local park.

I think if you approach them as combat encounters then yes, kinda boring action movie flare. But if you approach them as suspense building, that's engaging in my mind. And it adds to the idea that they've been through the ringer to get where they are going. TWD, Stranger Things, Penny Dreadful... i can think of many a series that has suspenseful, almost scary moments that improve upon what are, yes human stories, but in a horror setting. That is the genre. The creators can do both and acting like it has to be just one is such a cop out.

sorry i'm still waking up and having my coffee and feel like i could probably be more eloquent and less combative sounding but it's just not coming out that way lol. so, in spite of my lingual shortcomings at the moment, I do mean all this as a very respectful disagreement to be clear.

And I do think there are ways they could have got across to the audience how brutal this world was, and how difficult this journey has been for Joel and Ellie without needing to use all the action scenes from the game.

The reason it doesn't work here is not just because they've taken the action scenes out, it is because they have left almost everything else in and left it unchanged. So we have these exchanges of dialogue or character developments which are either referencing or responding to events that just don't exist in this version of the story, so it feels weird.

If this is the way in which they wanted to tell this story, they needed to find new context and framing for exchanges, they needed to find new catalysts for character development to reflect this being a much more action and horror lighter version of the story.

And it is weird, because they obviously can do new things like the Frank and Bill rework, which might still be the best episode of the entire show so far, so I dunno why they haven't done more of this.

@Kidfried well, I gotta be honest, that seems unfair. you've completely ignored the other examples I gave. And, trust me, I'm fully aware not everything TWD does is golden. Far from it. But it hasn't been such an enduring cultural force without at least doing some things right.

But yeah, Ellie comes off more as an over confident brat than anything else. But not violent. I could find plenty of kids like her right now at just about any school. Plus Joel literally pleads with the sniper to not have to kill him. Idk, Joel doesn't seem anywhere near the bad guy he supposedly is. But that's just like my opinion man. Really not my intention to beat a dead horse. I was actually done talking about it but I couldn't help myself when along came someone I agree with. @pizzamorg (On the series but not part 2 😝)

Yeah to make it super clear, I don't think The Last of Us is a bad show at all. If you watch the show and have never played the games, I'm sure the show is just fine because you have no context for what the show is missing etc etc

But when you have played the games, and especially when it is so fresh in my mind, I just realise how much the show is lacking compared to the games. And how many sequences or exchanges sorta don't really make a lot of sense anymore because their context has been removed.

The absolute worst adaptations to me are ones that don't really make any meaningful changes, expansions or additions, because then you are just experiencing a worse version of a story that already existed and was already great. That doesn't mean the show is bad, but it is definitely a significant step down from the version of the story told in the game. I really don't know how anyone could argue otherwise.

I think The Last of Us TV is cool in that it means an audience of people who may not want to play the games get to experience this story in some form. I think media should always be as accessible to as wide of an audience as they can. But I also think it is shame they are getting a watered down, cliff notes, version of a great story. I guess this is kinda fine because they don't know any different, but man, you could just watch a playthrough on YouTube or something I dunno.

I really do wish they did more work to make the show their own like with Frank and Bill, instead it is just HBOs Diet The Last of Us.

@Kidfried well this is gonna be short as I'm still at work but feel compelled to clarify I don't begrudge anyone thinking TWD is simplistic Hollywood nonsense or whatever. It definitely is and I don't think it started out that way and hate that it went down that road. It became a hate watch for me. Nor do I think TLoU is bad. It just could be so much more imo.

But yeah, I might expand on all that later and other things you bring up. Like over-confidence being a mask for insecurity, like, always. But we'll see how I feel later. Like we're not solving the world's problems here so eh, maybe I'll let it be with that.

@Kidfried @LN78 y'know I totally saw how I set that up for a Marvel comparison but I was not expecting Justin Bieber.

But yeah, I'm not here to rain on anyone's parade. I stopped watching after the 6th episode and while I didn't hate it I kinda feel like eh, I know what happens so I'm fine not finishing. Point is I can't really even have a truly informed discussion going forward so it's all good. The show is what it is and plenty are liking it and there's plenty out there for anyone who doesn't.

Finished watching season 3 of Stargirl. What an absolute joke of an ending for the entire show. Both season 1 and 2 were amazing, both in general as well as their finales. But season 3 was a disaster. The story was all over the place and you could tell they ran out of ideas. The ending was such a letdown, it doesn't come anywhere close to the other seasons' endings.

So I'm kinda glad they cancelled the show. It was great for a while but there's no point in continuing something if you don't know what to do with it.

@RogerRoger Well the thing is that the second season has a twist and you'll only get full closure by watching the third season. But it really isn't worth watching over a dozen more episodes just to see what happens.

The best season is easily the first one because it had a clear focus with its story and it had tons of memorable characters.

Last of Us Finale Spoilers: The Ashley Johnson cameo was cool, and I was kinda surprised they gave us a direct explanation for where Ellie's immunity comes from and how a vaccine is actually meant to work for this kind of infection.

The giraffe moment feels more hollow in the show for all the reasons discussed before, and it is weird they did it with CG.

Joel is a lot more fragile, vulnerable character in the show than he is in the game. I guess this is to set up their plans for Part 2, which is fine I guess, but much like with the changes to the set piece moments, I feel like the writing and dialogue hasn't been adjusted enough to reflect this different version of Joel.

There was always a very clear context for every action Joel took in the first game, even if when looked at individually some actions may contradict others, but the TV Joel's characterisation flipflops wildly, seemingly always at the whim of whatever the sequence he is in requires. I feel like this really robs the power of some of Joel's decisions, as they feel far more like they just come from complete nowhere in the show.

Oh and the ending? Part 2 retcon turned up to 11. Some will love this, I really hated this. We have even more assurance the vaccine will work now because now we know how it works meaning the chance of Ellie dying for nothing seems far less likely and Joel's actions only more selfish and evil. We have this ridiculous montage of Joel unrelentingly shooting his way through the hospital, rather than using stealth, which includes moments where he executes people surrendering to him to really lay it all on thick.

Awful, and only more so given the shows generally rushed pacing and poor realisation of Joel as a character.