Topic: The TV Show Thread

Okay so Loki....

There are some things I'd hoped others could clarify because there are aspects of the show I really dig but there is just way too much inconsistency in the show's rules making it hard for me to enjoy. Things have to line up or at least get pretty close. So maybe I'm missing something but here are my slightly spoilery questions:

Why are there (differing) variants on a single timeline? It's pretty clear sacred timeline means one timeline so why is there an alligator Loki? In Miss Minutes cartoon expo in the beginning, it shows a guy stepping off his timeline and instantly changing into variants. I get that it is a variant in that it's a new version of someone but why would they change form? And for that matter, why would they have a different past? That makes zero sense.

Also it's insinuated many times that Lokis' always this or that (lose, die at Thanos' hand, betray, etc) but like, this makes little sense as well because they all ostensibly have different backgrounds, different lives. (I guess even though they don't because it's just one timeline and branches are pruned) Sylvie and our Loki tell two different stories of their childhood so why in the world would they all have similar destinies or personality traits?

Dovetailing with this, at one point we're supposed to be in awe at the kid Loki who killed Thor but like... who is Thor to every Loki? Certainly not every Loki lives in the shadow of a mighty brother Thor. But then again this talk of every Loki makes no sense because it's one sacred timeline... There's just one damn Loki ffs.

If someone could make these things make sense I'd greatly appreciate it.

@zupertramp The timeline stuff is really just about the multiverse. So the point of divergence creates a new universe that due to the butterfly effect, has more and more changes as it’s allowed to exist, hence them standing out more to the TVA and eventually being pruned. Loki’s a trickster so seemingly gets involved in plenty differing events which would fit that character. The whole ‘timeline’ thing was a lie or just poorly explained, it’s different universes that are being pruned so that the only universe that exists is Kang/Immortus/He Who Remains’ one.

@nessisonett right but there is no multiverse correct? That's the point of the TVA and He Who Remains, yes? And when a branch is detected it's pruned so I'm still not understanding different Loki's or different anyone's for that matter. Unless the branch went on long enough to create butterfly effect style differences, which didn't seem to be the case. Plus like the Loki's in question are seemingly different before their Nexus event but like how if there is no multiverse? Unless these are leftovers from before the multiverse consolidation or they are variants spawned from the Nexus events of others, which doesn't seem like the case either.

On a side note I only just realized judge renslayer is from Black Mirror. San Junipero. I really like that one.

@zupertramp Well think about it. The TVA exist outside of time. Therefore let’s say Universe A is our own. Universe B comes into existence due to a difference in 1620 AD. Due to the TVA existing outside of time, changes through the butterfly effect would automatically be observable across the entire timeline of Universe B from 1620 on. So if they entered Universe B in 1945 then the world would be drastically different. They don’t have to naturally sit about and wait for those changes and as far as citizens living in Universe B after 1620 know, that’s the only life they’ve known. The branch instantly creates a timeline from the point of diversion to the end of time, it doesn’t naturally pass year by year. And since we know ‘pruning’ just teleports the person to Universe A’s void, they would have memories of their own universe even after it was destroyed, hence Kid Loki’s stories and such.

@nessisonett so they are essentially variants from the timelines of someone else's divergence then? Doesn't seem like the way they are presented. At one point, while in the room full of Loki's, they all recount what their Nexus event was. And so if it's their Nexus event (their divergence from the sacred timeline) they should be our Loki. Unless we have a Nexus event within a Nexus event type situation going on (because like you say, the TVA and Kang would see things play out instantaneously as they are outside of time) but if that's the case it really could be explained better.

And I've no problem with retained memories. My problem with kid Loki is the reverence paid to him when Thor wouldn't be the same to all Loki's. That's just not how multiple, and very possibly infinite, realities would work. In some Thor would be formidable, in others not. In many Thor and Loki might not even cross paths. Am I to presume there's an alligator Thor and an alligator Odin? With penguin avengers or something but their stories still play out the same? I'm just not sure the writers understand what they signed up for here, in regards to variable realities.

Which brings me back to my query about common characteristics between the Loki's. They are all backstabbers for example? Or they always lose? That doesn't make sense in a context where there are infinite possibilities. Nor did it make sense when old Loki said his Nexus event was when he didn't kill Thanos and retired to a planet to chillax. Every Loki, if there are multiple, shouldn't be facing off against Thanos the same way.

Maybe I'm overthinking it, idk.

@zupertramp Well the ‘always lose’ thing segued into them always being ‘survivors’. So in that sense, the ones to survive in the void for that long would naturally have those similar characteristics. And the way I see it, there are infinite branches being made at any one time but it’s only when the Nexus event happens for the TVA to actually notice. Like the whole wobbly line diagram had a limit when Loki was testing the apocalypse theory. So theoretically you could make small changes that wouldn’t register on the diagram. Only when that Loki killed Thor or did something big enough for the TVA to notice did they do something about it. So there’s an infinite amount of weeds but you can only pull up the ones that sprout above ground and you can see. The big plot hole though is that since the TVA are outside of time, they surely are instantly discovering these Nexus events as they happen in the timeline at the exact same moment as it is created from the TVA’s perspective. Time travel and separate universes never actually make sense tbh.

True, though it seemed to go deeper than that but I can't be sure. Still a fair point, which helps calm my brain.

This too kind of satiates my hunger for consistency.

Yeah honestly even an intervention from the TVA should create a new branch upon the new branch and that new branch that they created by intervening is the only one they are actually pruning but I try not to hold them to an impossible standard.

@zupertramp Branchception

@RogerRoger Yeah that's kinda what was grating for me was this suspicion that they weren't respecting the intelligence of their audience. Like they wanted it both ways where: 1)there's no multiverse, only a singular timeline with a suspicious organization in charge of protecting it and thus follows the unraveling of this arrangement to set up other properties and 2) there's an infinite number of Loki's running around in all different shapes and sizes with wholly different backgrounds in basically the same way there would be if there were a multiverse.

I felt like they should have either addressed this contradiction better or just stuck to the rules they put forth.

Interesting to hear about some of the production issues though. Kinda makes sense why this last episode felt a tad anticlimactic. Would have made for a great mid season reveal. I'm looking forward to seeing where it all goes, in both the second season and in upcoming films.

@zupertramp I actually worked on San junipero (I think it was that one with the 80s club night or something!)

@ralphdibny yeah that's the one. Cool, cool. Are you an extra in the club scenes? You in any other episodes?

@zupertramp yeah and nah that was it. I can't remember if I found myself in the episode tho. I'm not mega keen on Black Mirror because it's too scary for me 🙈😂. It's just too realistic in its depiction of the logical endpoints of humanitys greatest weaknesses. So even though I loved the episode I did watch because of how effective it was, I had no real desire to watch any more. Or should I say, I didn't have the mental fortitude to watch any more!

@ralphdibny it is a certain kind of creepy isn't it? Though it's rather hit or miss (and mostly miss) there are a couple that I really enjoy. San Junipero. Fifteen Million Merits (worth a watch just for Kaluuya's speech near the end). And Nosedive. Those leap to mind and weren't particularly too near future horror.

Also thought the one with Miley Cyrus was interesting only because I pretty much grew up on Pretty Hate Machine and all things NIN so having their music Disneyfied for this episode was... something.

@zupertramp for reference, the one I watched was the Toby Kebbel one. Which considering that it scared me so much, probably says a lot about me 😂

@ralphdibny Did I just see a reference to the legend that is Toby Kebbell?

@zupertramp also for reference, I didn't really get the whole extended alternate timeline thing either even though Ness has done a good job of explaining it. The programme only shows the TVA pruning the timeline at the moment of a nexus event so you would think no timeline would last more than a few minutes past its nexus event. I just ignored it and rolled with it and enjoyed it for what it was

I guess I did have a thought (but the multiple versions of other non Asgardian characters like Thanos would negate it) that there is only so many Loki's because Ragnarok is the end of a cycle. So there's an Asgardian lineage which starts with Bor, father of Odin, father of Thor and adopted father of Loki. Then Ragnarok happens and the cycle starts again with Bor and so on for infinity so the multiple Lokis could have existed for aeons prior to our current Loki. None of that is explained in any film though so I don't think that is MCU canon.

Also, thinking about it now. Maybe the pruned Loki's are actually just from before the multiversal war. So they have existed for aeons but were all pruned more or less near the beginning of the formation of the TVA. I guess that doesn't really make sense in terms of their nexus events though.

But yeah, as I say, I didn't care too much. There is too much to love about Lady Loki, President Loki, Alligator Loki, Tom Hiddlesloki and Richard E. Loki for me to care about the logic of why it's happening 😅

@nessisonett yes 😅. He's very good!

@ralphdibny the Toby Kebbel one is quite bleak and while that's usually my thing, it was just too depressing/disturbing for my tastes. Like it was too close to home or something idk.

But yeah, he's quite good. Great in Servant, though the show went a little of the rails on the latter half of the second season if you ask me.

In regards to Loki, you put forth some plausible explanations (I certainly didn't know the Ragnarok one) but it's a pet peeve of mine when I'm forced to fill in the logic gaps on my own. Still, the discussions have helped and I'd really like to watch it all the way through again after the second season is out.

For that matter, I'd also like to watch Black Widow again but as part of a marathon and in the correct order. Though I'll probably wait for a few more movies to come along before committing to that.

@zupertramp I've probably done myself up like a kipper by watching that one first then if it's notably bleak in comparison to the others! I did want to watch the rest after I'd seen the Toby Kebbel one, just at a better time when my mental health was in a better state. I'll probably give it all a proper go one day!

I was a big fan of Dead Man's Shoes with Toby Kebbel and Paddy Considine. I mean it's not like a super amazing film and it's pretty on the nose in a lot of ways but it's an important film of its era and i like it anyway!

I think id like to see Black Widow again but properly in the cinema. I feel like the post credits and/or bookended scenes of these films make it really difficult to watch them in chronological order instead of release order. As well as contextually too. It makes the most sense to watch Captain Marvel before Endgame contextually in my opinion. Black Widow would be better placed directly after Civil War but the end credits stinger would spoil Endgame so it's just a bit annoying in that instance.

@ralphdibny I actually think if you were coming to these movies for the first time that end scene adds some intrigue because you know she dies but you don't know how or when. I would have loved that actually. Of course this could spoil the cliff scene but frankly it's not that great imo anyway. But I hear you.