Topic: The Movie Thread

The first WW was so bad but received so much acclaim I worry the sequel just ramps up all the things wrong with the debut.

Also Gal Gadot is no WW so no real way to solve that problem but Kristen Wiig as Cheetah?! I mean, my lord if there were ever a time a character has screamed ethnicity swap it's Barbara Ann Minerva. Surely there's some British actor of middle eastern descent that could have both rooted her comic book back story (as British Archaeologist) and allowed for the inclusion of an ethnicity more suited for portraying an animal that hails from Africa/Middle East. Idk maybe I'm just being too picky but I feel like casting one of the whitest women alive was a real missed opportunity toward doing something with WW's most iconic villain.

Also really not looking forward to the "oh look it's something from the 80s isn't that so funny" humor that I imagine it leans heavily on because it's DC and all they know how to do is botch other films' formulas.

Geez I haven't even seen it and I already hate it lol. Who knows, my expectations can't be any lower, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

@Th3solution Smart move. I know we've spoken before about how you love the ambience of American cinemas, especially when watching something that commands fanbase reactions, but I think the vast majority will be following your example, given the choice.

And I'll be honest, after re-watching it a couple times, I reckon I've settled on thinking that the first Wonder Woman was "not bad, yeah" (the No Man's Land sequence and subsequent town battle were the only moments I felt it tried to reach higher than bang-average). As a result, the perfect editing of that impactful first WW84 trailer is responsible for a good 75% of my enthusiasm. I'm fully prepared for the film itself to be nothing like it, at all, but it's gonna be tough to separate the end result from its marketing.

Looking forward to seeing Pedro Pascal acting without a bucket on his head, though!

@nessisonett @zupertramp @RogerRoger
Yeah, I think that fans of the first WW movie will probably find something to enjoy with ‘84 and those who didn’t like it or Gadot’s version of Diana are more likely to be unimpressed. It seemed familiar with the first movie and the portrayal of the heroine is pretty consistent rather than evolutionary. I actually like her and although they continue with a heavy emphasis on the glamor girl aspect and play up the feminine side, she balances it with plenty of strength and dominance. She’s DC’s version of Captain America though — a little dry in the personality department, always virtuous and noble, and a misunderstood relic living in the wrong time period. But it works as a balance with the Justice League when Batman, Superman, and Aquaman are present. When she’s on her own it’s harder to sell. For me Gadot really commands the screen, but I realize I might be in the minority.

I see that HBO has also put all the old Wonder Woman TV shows on the network so I might need to check them out and see the Lynda Carter version of the character. I don’t think I’ve seen much of any of those shows, that I can remember.

As for Wiig, I can’t say I was too smitten with her. But my experience with the character doesn’t go beyond Injustice 2 the game, so I had no reference point. Pascal is really fascinating in his character and really shows his range if, like me, all you’re accustomed with is his Mando role.

Watched Pixar's Soul with the family and was... pretty happy with it. This is the best film I've seen from that studio since Toy Story 3 released many moons ago. The trailer itself was a bit concerning to me, since it looked like it was going to trade grounded storytelling for cartoon stupidity midway through, but the film does a pretty good job of keeping its feet planted narratively, no matter how cosmic and grandiose its scope gets. I'm not a huge fan of the film's cosmology, but the rich characterization of the various characters and the deeply existentialistic messaging that winds its way through the narrative more than makes up for any of its shortcomings. The comedy is heavily character-based and, despite the 'cute' look of the souls in this movie, it resists the temptation to allow mascot-type characters to send the script careening into chaos, as they often do in major family films. I don't think it'll be one of the studio's major classics, but, for me, it ends the streak of mediocrity that I've come to associate with the once great animation studio.

Also watched Mulan, and that was... ech. The script is bland (and occasionally nonsensical in terms of how it differs from the original), the characterization of Mulan ditches the nuances of the Disney original and turns her into another 'man with boobs' character that doesn't seem to make anyone happy, the action is forgettable, and, for the love of god, don't include cultural elements like Qi if you're going to turn it into ridiculous Star Wars-esque comic book nonsense (I'm almost surprised someone didn't get forcechoked qichoked at some point in the film). The contours of the original are there, but the vibrancy and humor are gone, and replaced with action movie nonsense that has no place in the film. It's funny how controversial the film ended up being, given it feels like it was specifically designed by a committee to avoid that sort of thing. In terms of repellant Disney live action remakes, it sits somewhere between Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King for me. Just... stick with the cartoon.

@Th3solution For what it's worth, there's definitely some bigger DC nerds out there but I'm fairly familiar with most of the characters and heavily prefer them over Marvel's. Which is why I am often frustrated by their inability to get it together on the live action movie front. It's like I'm in a perpetual bad mood at this point. So it's possible I'm being overly harsh and critical out of scorn. That's why I didn't even join the Birds of Prey discussion. Smh... aannd breath.

It's honestly much easier to enjoy the Marvel movies because one, they're usually objectively better, and two, it's okay if, for example, they make a character into a running fat joke because none of them are as near and dear to my heart anyway. Wait am I talking about Thor or Star-Lord?

@zupertramp I’ve never been a comic book expert, but you can’t grow up in the Western world as a little boy and not get some heavy exposure to superheroes - Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman... it’s literally one of the tent poles of Western culture. And I’d have to agree that DC has better characters overall. But I think Disney/Marvel has increased the strength of the brand by focusing on the lesser known characters of the Avengers. Personally I knew Spidey, Thor, Capt A, Ironman... but before the MCU I couldn’t have told you a single thing about the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr Strange, or Vision, for example. Their ability to focus on lesser know quantities and make them interesting has helped them win the cinematic war with DC. DC seems comfortable to recycle multiple Jokers and Batmans and a couple different Superman’s, and then when they have an opportunity to introduce people to Cheetah, Deadshot, Cyborg, or even Harley Quinn, they don’t really stick the landing and endear the audience. On the flip side, I think the small screen is dominated by DC and I have enjoyed what I’ve watched of Doom Patrol and Swamp Thing looks pretty good and I’m curious to start that at some point.

@Th3solution nice write up of ww84! It's such a semi hype film for me. The first film is so painfully average and overrated that it makes it difficult to get excited for a sequel. The trailers for 84 look really good though. I feel like WW was handled much better in the Snyder movies, she is the highlight of the mostly rubbish batman Vs superman and one of the highlights in JL. Her extended origin story was a bit of a drag in WW1 so hopefully the sequel isn't encumbered by having to tell a pointlessly boring origin story. I'm a fan of Kristen Wiig too so that should be good at least. Not worth going to the cinema in the pandemic for me though (no film would be worth it for me) so I will wait for its hopefully expedited appearance on one of our streaming services.

@Th3solution Truth be told I was big into the X-Men when I was a kid but that was about it. In any case I agree with you about the Marvel movies. I'd never even heard of GotG or Scarlett Witch or Vision etc. They've really done well presenting them and building on that.

@Th3solution

I think your correct on quite a few levels there, particularly in regards to the fact that Marvels/Disney are willing to explore obscure titles cinematically being critical to the MCU’s sustained success. As a lifelong comic book reader though, I would disagree with DC definitively having better characters. I have had various stages where I have preferred DC and then Marvel and back again... it really comes down the the creative teams at any one time really. For me DC (in the comics anyway) is stronger when the writing lends the characters metaphorically towards God-like beings of ancient myth. I think Marvel is stronger when the writing focuses on the flawed humanity of its heroes.

The MCU films have done a far better job of capturing the feel of the Marvel comics on a consistent basis. The DC films (post The Dark Knight Rises) have absolutely no consistency at all and rarely feel anything like the source material whether the movie is good (The Joker) or terrible (Justice League). My personal opinion is that while Kevin Feige at Marvel is a fan of comics first and a movie producer second, DC (WB) is a board of suits who make far too many reactive decisions in regards to public reactions rather than have faith in their appointed creatives. While Man of Steel and Batman vs Superman were nowhere near the level of what I would like to see from DC movies, at least the overall vision was somewhat consistent. Then the studio-heads lost their will after BvsS didn’t crack a billion and tried to out-Marvel Marvel with Justice League and it fell flat on its face.

I’m looking forward to The Batman reboot due to Matt Reeves directing more than anything else, the guy just makes great movies... but apart from that I hold out little hope for DC movies with what is currently in production. Meanwhile, Marvel will be pumping out more content than ever in 2021 with 4 or 5 Disney+ shows, 3 movies and an extra movie for Sony. All of these will contain mini-arcs that will culminate in crossover crescendos during 2022 and beyond. The multi-verse trilogy/quadrilogy of Wanda Vision, maybe Loki, Spider-Man 3 and Doctor Strange:The Multiverse of Madness in particular could be awesome if they can maintain the quality from Phases 1, 2 and 3.

@ralphdibny Agree with you 100% there. Wonder Woman was average at best and that was near the top of the recent DC stuff. I'm in no real rush to see the sequel and will give it a watch when it is with the disk rental service I use.

@Ralizah Thanks for your thoughts on those new Disney flicks. Both caught my attention last week, but we didn't get around to either; good to narrow things down and focus on Soul (which looks and sounds genuinely interesting) whilst leaving Mulan for the rainiest of rainy days.

Good to hear that Soul turned out alright @Ralizah!

There was that fantasy film... Onward I think it's called? That released earlier in the year which didn't quite appeal to me for some reason that was Pixar too apparently.

I agree most of Pixar's output lately has been a little safe with the unesscesary sequels dominating most of the past ten years of output ... But Coco and Inside Out were definitely a step above the rest for me at least!

As for Mulan... Not surprised in the slightest to hear it turned out to be a bit of a trainwreck!

As for the comic book movie talk... I have to confess I haven't even seen the first Wonder Woman film because personally I didn't think Gal Gadot was any good as WW in Batman V Superman and had no faith in it 😅

Didn't help that BvS was a terrible film all over (Batfleck is easily the worst Batman I've seen alongside the Clooney Bat) but I never felt the desire to watch it with the poor reception of the other recent DC films

@RogerRoger It's a pity (re: Mulan). The original is one of my favorite Disney films from the late 90s, and Mulan was an actually relatable person in that film. Her journey from 'dorky normal girl who can't fit in with the expectations of society' to 'brave soldier who overcomes her physical and psychological limitations to save the empire' is what animates that film. It's the hero's journey, and, sort of like with Star Wars, Disney has forgotten about the strength of that concept. Nu Mulan is very much like Rey where she's this amazing badass from the word go, and her character doesn't undergo any real growth over time. Old Mulan wasn't a supersoldier, but she was willing to go to dramatic lengths to save her father; Nu Mulan was just looking for an excuse to show off her qi, or something, and that provided a good excuse for her to join the service. It's really devastating: the narrative goes from one of love, sacrifice, and bravery to something totally self-centered.

Imagine if Star Wars were made today (the first one; episode four or whatever), and the film was all about how Luke Skywalker was actually already an accomplished force user, and society was just keeping him down and not allowing him to fully develop his potential as a warrior. The death of his guardians gives him an excuse to go out into the wider world, but the film is less about stopping evil and more about him developing his abilities. It wouldn't change the content of the film all that much, but it would entirely destroy the 'soul' of the story, wouldn't it?

I've been watching The Mandalorian, and it's funny how that kind of seems like it's going to be about this unstoppable bounty hunter badass, but it's actually about the growing affection between Mando and the child. His moral duty to see the child to safety slowly becomes a deep, loving, fatherly connection that softens his harder edges, and, in the second season, you seem him increasingly struggle with the idea of leaving the child at all, even if he knows it's the right thing to do. It's a satisfying emotional arc; the sort of thing completely absent from the recent films.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Coco wasn't bad, but it felt like a more generic retread of a cultural space already explored a few years before in the underrated 2014 film The Book of Life. And it just lacked a... spark for me.

The central gimmick of Inside Out ruined that film for me, to the point where I couldn't become invested in Joy's emotional journey. Turning simplified aspects of a person's complex cognition into characters in their own right just makes for boring, predictable storytelling, IMO, and it distanced me from the young girl and her development.

Comparatively, I just watched A Christmas Story for the first time, and that film grounds you in the psychology of a child without making him out to be an almost alien creature.

@Ralizah The Book of Life is fantastic and is a shame it will forever be overlooked for the lesser but more popular Coco.

Well that's certainly an intetesting perspective @Ralizah & @JohnnyShoulder regarding Coco & The Book of Life... As I did dismiss Coco when it first came out for thinking it seemed quite familar in premise to the latter (Despite not having seen it either) from the trailers.

I'm actually just about to watch the Book Of life funnily enough so I'll wonder what I'll end up thinking of it and how it'll compare

Re: Inside Out. Fair enough I can understand your view on it @Ralizah.

I'm really quite fond of Sadness myself and think Phyllis Smith does a fantastic performance (Though Amy Poehler does good as Joy too) and I have to admit I'm an absolute sap for the emotional heartstrings the film tugs at with Bing-Bong 😂

-EDIT-

I've just watched The Book Of Life

Sorry guys but this was absolutely atrocious

The story was rather uninteresting despite the initial premise being intriguing, the dialogue was tripe and the "humour" made me physically cringe, Manolo was such a boring protagonist with barely any personality (His voice actor was bland as wallpaper too), Ice Cube was horribly miscast as the Candlemaker (Seriously wtf?!) ... The "songs" included weren't great either.

Ugh. What a waste of time.

@Ralizah I accidentally missed your previous post on Soul and Mulan and appreciate your take. Soul is my next stop on my sojourn through ‘big budget movies that were supposed to go to theater but went straight to streaming.’ I’m looking forward to it now.
And yes, although I probably liked it a little more than you, I have to agree on most points on Mulan. I kept waiting for a catchy musical number or an humorous Eddie Murphy-style sequence, and they never came.

And in reading your critique I think you’re onto something in general — that being the acceleration of protagonists into their final ‘badass’ form without showing the struggle, bravery, and sometimes failure of an imperfect hero. There’s a bit of that in Wonder Woman also and it shows in this new movie. Not being a woman I don’t know how to feel about it, but the trend seems more common with female leads. Is it possible that in the attempt to make strong female hero leads (certainly a worthy venture) that we are too quick to show them as flawless, overpowered, and void of the struggles of their male counterparts? It’s a trend I’ve noticed in movies, like you say - Rey, Mulan easily skipping the ‘just a common / misunderstood person who has to learn their powers’ and you can throw Diana in there now. I’m not sure if it’s an overcompensation by Hollywood being reluctant to show a female lead fail or come off as weak, or if it’s just simply pandering to a fan base who demands to see bombastic badassery and doesn’t have the patience anymore to watch a hero (or villain) develop.

On the topic of Disney remakes, I watched the Aladdin remake a few weeks ago and just thought it was trash. Even small bits that were ok/good were just drowned out by lazy directing and poor production value. I know Guy Ritchie must do these rubbish films for the pay cheque/to get his non franchise films financed but he really has more terrible films than amazing films now.

Everything about alladin seemed not quite right, from the lack of variety in locations and static sets to all the musical numbers just looking rubbish. I think it really hit home how bad it looked when the Jason Segel Muppets film had way better and professional looking musical numbers. I even caught a bit of the Kurt russel Christmas film on Netflix and saw a musical number in that film look way more impressive.

It's a real shame because I bet it cost Disney a ton to make Aladdin but it looks so cheap and is so obviously filmed on a set. I don't think it's the set designers/builders fault, I just think there's camera tricks that can be used to make things look less artificial which weren't implemented.

Maybe I'm harsher on it because Aladdin is one of my favourite Disney cartoons

@Th3solution I mean, power fantasies can work out fine, but they have to be structured to account for that. The power fantasy of something like Kill Bill vol. 1 (probably tied with Die Hard as my favorite action film) is fine because the film is about style and execution, not storytelling. You don't watch that film because it's an interesting story, or because the character are relatable, or whatever; you watch it because it's really fun watching Uma Thurman stylishly murder the people who ruined her life. They can also develop their heroes in other ways: Mando is already a badass at the start of The Mandalorian, but it's engaging to watch the show because he goes on an emotional journey.

Mulan is just a failure in every way. It's not a particularly good action movie. It subverts the messaging and characterization of the original, so that a story about bravery, compassion, and self-discovery because completely self-aggrandizing (the original film is a multi-textured work that touches on a number of themes; nu Mulan is like an Ayn Rand novel where the whole point of it is that society needs to get the hell out of the way of powerful women like Mulan and that weird witch they randomly added, and it smashes that idea in so hard with its narrative hammer that it destroys every other aspect of the film in the process). It's somehow more unrealistic than the original film was, and somehow feels even less authentically chinese than the original, with Disney's screenwriters giving these chinese characters lines so stereotypical that they border on racism and appropriating chinese religious concepts for their bad action movie script. What's the point of it?

Coincidentally, I also watched WW84 last night, and the best sequence in that film was one that took place roughly halfway through when Diana was chasing Lord's convoy and it was clear she was losing her powers. It was exciting, because she wasn't invincible, so what happened on screen actually mattered. It made the action direction better, and made me feel more connected to what was happening on screen. Whereas, you know, I kind of zoned out once she started flying around like superman and swinging on lightning bolts, and the film goes on autopilot near the end when she faces its villains. Then it became more like one of Disney's trashy Marvel films, where boring power-escalation CGI fests are papered over with "funny" dialogue to distract from the emptiness of it all.

Of course, the original Wonder Woman was also a mostly mediocre film that was elevated by Gal Godot's presence. Great choice for an actress; subpar screenwriting.

I will say, I LOVE the Lynda Carter cameo during the mid-credits scene, though.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Cool. I'd be interested to hear your perspective on that film (Book of Life). It's definitely not perfect, but the unique visual design really won me over. So many CGI cartoon films look identical anymore, so I'm a sucker for anything different.

edit: lmao, just read your update. I do agree, at least, that the film doesn't have strong songs.

That's probably one aspect of Soul that got me as well. The depiction of heavenly/cosmic entities is... interesting. Very eye-catching.

As soon as I heard about Bing Bong being some sort of imaginary friend from early childhood, I knew the film was about to engage in some sort of emotional terrorism. It was a popular film that resonated with a lot of people, so I was a bit disappointed that it didn't really work for me.

@JohnnyShoulder Coco benefits from both the big names behind it and the tremendously larger budget it probably had. The only reason Book of Life didn't get totally Kimba'd is likely because the films released within a few years of one-another.

@ralphdibny I kinda liked Aladdin, but I understand. I'm that way with the Beauty and the Beast remake. I detest that film so much and have ranted about it online endlessly, and while I might be harsher on it than a dispassionate viewer would be, I just can't believe they did that to one of my favorite animated films.

My absolute favorite, though, is The Little Mermaid. I'm steeling myself for the anger and disappointment I'm going to inevitably feel when watching that remake!

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy I also didn't like The Book of Life and while I see Coco as at least more authentic, I still really dislike it.

@zupertramp So you didn't enjoy Coco OR Book of Life?