Topic: The Marvel Thread

Ahead of the Secret Invasion premiere, I've been slowly getting myself back up-to-speed with the MCU these past couple months (at least in terms of what's available on Disney+). Only got Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania left to get through, which I'll hopefully do tomorrow.

Ms. Marvel was brilliant. It benefits from one of the best supporting casts in recent memory, with Kamala's family, friends and community being really enjoyable to spend time with. All of the performances across the board were excellent, though. Unfortunately, the "aggressive law enforcement vs. minority community" finale fell flat; I felt they should've gone further, and driven the obvious point home harder, because it came across as weak and muddled. Otherwise, top marks!

Thor: Love and Thunder was... a thing that happened. I'm still not sure whether I was laughing at it or with it the entire time, but y'know what? I laughed for two hours. Maybe that's enough?

She-Hulk: Attorney at Law is one of my new favourite MCU things ever. Didn't think I'd like it as much as I did. The humour hit for me, and its steady descent into utterly unpredictable madness was a heck of a lot of fun. I can see how some of its self-deprecation might've missed the mark for some (that's always a tricky thing to get right; I guess only time will tell if its jabs were mistakes to make) but moments from its final episode will live rent-free in my memory for many, many years.

Werewolf by Night was a pleasing-enough diversion. Kinda wished I'd caught it at Halloween, or at least waited until the same window this year, as I think it would've worked better without me wearing shorts, iced drink in hand. Props to Michael Giacchino for nailing his biggest directorial project to date.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is a film of two halves. I utterly adored all of the character work, the interactions, the dialogue, and the overall story arcs, but then an action scene would kick in and spoil everything by being drab, pedestrian, and poorly rendered to boot, with distractingly cheap CGI that looked worse than the previous movie (somehow). Chadwick Boseman's tragic passing clearly had a seismic impact on the script, so you'd forgive it for stumbling in a few places whilst the reliable MCU machine papered over any cracks with sumptuous visuals and stunning fight choreography... but no, turns out it's the other way around. How could they allow such great writing and great performances to be undermined by such lazy post-production? Makes you wish they'd dialled it all back and made a dramatic miniseries instead.

@RogerRoger I love how you basically plagiarized my brain for this write-up As for the effects in Wakanda Forever, I made the mistake of seeing it in a 3D IMAX, so I actually thought the janky visuals were due to poor 3D post-conversion. Interesting that it's actually poor SFX work. Hopefully Marvel will have a healthier relationship with the FX studios going forward as it's apparently been a dumpster fire.

As a guy who still finds LOTS of enthusiasm for every Marvel project that rolls my way, I should mention that the new Ant-Man movie was the first time I left the cinema feeling disappointed. And considering we seem to have very similar tastes when it comes the other Marvel properties you talked about here, low expectations may be the order of the day on that one

(and She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel are still battling it out for the top spot of my favourite Marvel productions... brilliant stuff, both)

@FuriousMachine I'll give your brain byline credit next time.

Although it's been many years since I saw a 3D flick at the cinema (so I'd imagine that the technology has improved slightly, or at least should've done by now) I can imagine how rough those visual effects shots must've seen, given how things tend to look even fuzzier in 3D. Something's gotta give, especially since those VFX artists spoke up and explained the situation. There's no excuse when you're as rich as Disney. Here's hoping the studios get a fairer deal, and enough time to actually complete their work.

I'll brace myself accordingly ahead of Quantumania then, cheers! Given the strong recurring cast of the Ant-Man movies, I'm sure I'll enjoy their performances, if nothing else. Ant-Man is my favourite individual hero of the bunch, even if I do rank a few other movies higher than his.

Am looking forward to seeing Kamala return in The Marvels later this year (or next year for me, when it hits Disney+). Really hope we get another season of She-Hulk, and soon!

@RogerRoger It’s great to see that your latest Marvel show consumption has been mostly satisfactory. Werewolf by Night is the only one from your list that I haven’t watched yet, and I’m pleased to see I’m probably better off waiting a couple months anyways.

I’ll add that I also enjoyed aspects of all the other shows/movies listed. I started out really positive with Ms. Marvel, mostly because the tone and characters were so refreshing and new. As you probably recall I played the campaign of the Marvel’s Avengers game side by side my viewing of the show and I think that experience enhanced and also distracted from my enjoyment. There was parts of the game’s version of Kamala’s origin story I felt were done better, and vice versa. So I think it ended up making both entires feel inferior in their own way. I also felt like the middle and end of the TV show seemed to drag and the plot went off the rails (no pun intended) a bit too much. So I cooled on my initial enthusiasm I had for it early on.

She-Hulk was more of a consistent winner for me, even with the crazy ending that seemed to divide opinions. I think that I wasn’t expecting much so it exceeded low expectations.

I also got along with Love and Thunder a little more than the average viewer, but that doesn’t mean I liked it much. It was okay, imo, and not quite the travesty against humanity that it’s been labeled as. Still, it’s in the lower echelon of the MCU.

And I was pleased with Wakanda Forever and yet felt there was something about it that didn’t quite land. I think you’ve explained it expertly and so I realize perhaps what it was that left it short of being something greater. I wasn’t a huge fan of the first Black Panther movie (although it liked it on a middling level), so this also was probably just a case of exceeding low preexisting expectations.

As far as Quantumania, I think you’ll like it, especially since you hold the Ant-Man character is high regard. I found it hovered in the middle tier of MCU products, but your mileage may vary. I won’t spoil it for you, but there’s just too many parts to the production that held it back for me. Here’s hoping you enjoy!

@RogerRoger @Th3solution I think my biggest problem with Quantumania was that it never felt like an Ant-Man film. I get that they needed to get the Kang-saga started, but I question the decision to use Ant-Man to do it. Anyway, I'll be giving it a rewatch soon, as I got the 4K steelbook recently, so maybe I'll like it better now that I know what I'm in for.

I really loved Ms. Marvel and, in particular, the portrayal of Kamala. I never managed to get far into the Avengers game, but the one thing I did like was her portrayal there as well. As I quit it early in frustration (too much live-service type gameplay for me... do we really need twenty types of currency for unlocks even in the single player campaign?), the Kamala in the series became "canon" for me. Origin was a bit iffy, but her personality was just so much awesomesauce. And looks like that carries over to The Marvels, too, judging from the trailer. I also liked the Captain Marvel movie and Brie Larson in the role, and never got the vitriol it received. Sure, now the pinnacle of movies, but nowhere near deserving the hate it got. I'll be buying at ticket for The Marvels at my local IMAX as soon as they're available

So, I've also seen the first episode of Secret Invasion, so I'll issue a huge SPOILER WARNING here now (in case you're reading this in an email notification where spoiler tags don't work):
Damn, that end to the episode gutted me! Loved that character! Fail to see how they could walk that back, too. Unless it was an LMD, which really wouldn't make much sense.

@FuriousMachine I think that’s a good way to describe Quantumania — it’s doesn’t quite feel like an Ant-Man movie. That and there’s just a lot of suspension of disbelief that has to occur. I know that sounds like a silly statement for me to make when we’re talking about superheroes and fantastical settings are the rule. But it’s just hard to be as immersive when a movie goes out of its way to give a scientific background to things but then has lots of unexplained magical events and characters also. It’s almost like it needs to pick a lane and stick with it. I know the MCU is rife with this issue — some heroes are normal people augmented with technology, some are fantastically changed by some fictional but explainable phenomenon, some heroes are just inherently magical or powerful, and some are just extraterrestrial with unique characteristics because of that. The MCU has always mixed these together, but the balance didn’t quite click for me in this movie. Maybe I’m just getting jaded the older I get. 😅

I also felt like the movie wasn’t sure what it wanted to be from a dramatic standpoint. Much of the silliness was too juvenile and detracted from the weightier parts of the narrative. Kang was alright but his arc was hamstrung by too many grade-school jokes and silliness. And MODOK is just an absolute conundrum by himself. He’s ridiculous looking and they lean into the humorous part of his absurd and outlandish appearance. And yet he’s also supposed to be this scary evil character. And then they try to give him a last minute redemption story and foster sympathy. It was all just a mess. His character in the video game was better, I thought, although still off-putting and oddly creepy and funny at the same time.

As for Kamala I liked the awkward teenager vibe of the TV version, but I fear she’ll struggle to fit in next to Capt Marvel / Brie Lawson. The video game version of Kamala seemed more super-heroiney and her teen star-struck nature was less forced. I don’t know. It’s been a while since I played/watched them. But yes, the live service aspects of the game absolutely ruined it and even adversely affected the single player campaign, even though it was just by passive association.

@Th3solution You hit the nail on the proverbial head with your assessment of Quantumania. It almost perfectly sums up my experience with it as well.

As for The Marvels, I really enjoy Kamala's unbridled enthusiasm and fangirling for the Avengers and I hope that will pair nicely with Danvers and Rambeau seemingly trying to do their own thing and becoming increasingly frazzled by the weird place swapping that keeps occurring. I have high hopes for this one

@Th3solution @FuriousMachine I'm grateful for the expanded thoughts on Quantumania, which've been real interesting to read in the wake of watching it yesterday.

Whilst I don't necessarily disagree with any of the points you've raised, I still really liked it. It'll never be my favourite chapter of the MCU, but I'd put it in the top half of a current ranking. I adored its unbridled visual imagination (something I feel has been sorely lacking in other fantastical universes lately, most notably Star Wars) and couldn't fault the effects ("We found the missing half of Wakanda Forever's post-production budget, folks! It was in the Quantum Realm!") and so was able to surrender to its sense of discovery and awe. And sure, it was less a story about Ant-Man & the Wasp and more a "proper" introduction to Kang, but I was fine with that, given the inescapable magnetism of Jonathan Majors' performance.

Sure, it didn't feel like the previous Ant-Man movies, and I agree that some of the comedy beats weren't as reliable as they were before, but in the wake of Endgame, I think it would've been weird seeing Scott, Hope and Cassie regressing back to neighbourhood heists and bathroom drain antics. Ant-Man and the Wasp are Avengers now, and they needed to be able to step up in their own right. Kang gave them that opportunity, and being contained to the Quantum Realm ensured that nothing got spoiled ahead of the obvious Avengers crossover "event" where Scott can show up and say, "Hey, I know this jerk!"

I also loved how it put Janet front-and-centre, and made time to explain what'd happened to her during all that time stuck in the Quantum Realm. It just... neatly ticked a lot of boxes, y'know? Both for the Ant-Man continuity and for the larger MCU. And not in an obligatory way, either. It's kinda what I'd have tried to do, had I been tasked with addressing all of these plot threads and lingering questions.

Might not have included MODOK, though. He wasn't offensive, nor was he "bad" in any way, but he was the most bizarre part of a deliberately bizarre movie. Perhaps he was just one bizarre thing too far.

But yeah, I do love Ant-Man and his whole family, always have, and so perhaps that added ten percent extra positivity right out of the gate. I'm real sorry both of you were disappointed by it, and it appears that you're not alone, so it'll be interesting to see how Phase Five unfolds in its wake, and whether there are any minor course corrections (because, after that post-credits scene, it looks as though there's a pretty clear blueprint being laid out now, which is certainly a change of gear after Phase Four's aimless wandering).

Also, specific to Sol, I do recall you mentioning that you'd watched Ms. Marvel whilst playing Marvel's Avengers, and it's unfortunate that the competing interpretations of Kamala ended up damaging one another. I always find it interesting when there's overlap like that; I pre-ordered Marvel's Spider-Man 2 the other day and realised that it might end up releasing close to Across the Spider-Verse on Blu-Ray, and wondered how I'd fare with two different Spider-People adventures in such close proximity. Makes you realise how little communication there must be within the various arms of these huge licences, and why publishers and developers toot their own horn so loudly when an effort is actually made. Surely it'll only damage the brand if you're confusing fans with all this noise, right? Or do the suits still think that only gamers game, and only movie buffs watch movies, and one can't be the other?

***

Also watched the Secret Invasion premiere and, um... yeah, kinda rubbish? I really hope it's just a shaky start, and that the rest of it lives up to the potential of the cast and premise.

@RogerRoger Glad you enjoyed Quantumania You do make some very good points which reframes the movie a bit in my mind, making me think of it more kindly (mind, I never disliked it, it just didn't live up to what I was expecting, which, to be fair, is on me ). Looking forward to watching it again, now.

I really did like Majors as Kang (and as an actor, in general), and I really hope that the recent allegations against him turn out to be false, but I worry that there is too much smoke for there to not be any fire. Time will tell, I guess.

But, you didn't like Secret Invasion? I found it quite intriguing and am stoked for what's next. Loved Coleman's character, by the way

@FuriousMachine I thought "Ant Man 3" was complete, unfiltered crap - not as bad as "Love and Thunder" but pretty close. How can the quantum realm "exist beyond time and space" when they're clearly talking about things having happened on a linear timeline in a specific location? And just what are the differences between a realm and a universe and a timeline and a reality in the MCU now, anyway? It's as if the writers don't know or care or expect anybody else to know or care. It's bloody insulting.

@LN78 hehehe, I've come to realise that we are miles apart when it comes to Marvel movies (and others), but that's perfectly fine Life would be boring if everyone liked the same things

@FuriousMachine Sure. Do you genuinely not see the massive (and I mean huge) disparity in quality between the pre and post "Infinity War" content? Or do you just not care?

@LN78 Well, your question doesn't leave much room for nuance, but I'll give you my thoughts. I disagree quite strongly with the notion that there is a massive quality disparity between everything that came before "Infinity War" and everything that came after.

I have enjoyed quite a lot of the post Infinity War content, most of it, in fact, and while I do agree that there are more missteps in the latter group than the former, they aren't egregious enough for me to get all riled up about it. So, I guess I don't see it the way you see it or feel quite as strongly about it as you do (or "care", as you put it).

@FuriousMachine I don't understand why people automatically assume there's some inherent connection between enjoying something and that thing's quality. I'm happy to enjoy something that's completely terrible but I'm not going to pretend that it isn't bloody awful - "Loki", for example, basically decimated the notion that free will was involved during the events of the "Infinity Saga". That's objectively horrendous writing (like my example above about realms, timelines and realities) and yet many people still think that show is the best thing in the Disney+ era of the MCU. It blows my mind.

@LN78 I'm sorry, I guess it comes down to the fact that your very strong wording sometimes makes it seem like these movies are an affront to humanity and that people have to be stupid to like them. I think that's why you'll find people defending these movies when you rail against them.

@FuriousMachine It's weird isn't it? People get really defensive about the fact that they enjoy crap - I find "Jaws:The Revenge" to be wildly entertaining but that doesn't mean I think it's a good movie. A lot of people just don't subscribe to the notion that there are objective standards in art, I suppose.

@LN78 Not weird at all. Again, it's down to the wording. Saying that something isn't good is not the same as calling something "complete crap". The latter will provoke a defense in quite a few people.

And, no, I absolutely do not subscribe to the fact that there are objective standards in art. Who's the arbiter of that? Which manual or tome of wisdom does one need to consult in order to objectively deem a painting, a poem, a novel or any art as "good" or "bad"?

@FuriousMachine OK. So on the one hand you have a movie made by some drunken students over a weekend using an old iPhone and a budget of £1.47. On the other you have "Lawrence of Arabia". No objective standards you say? Nonsense. And just what is the difference between "not good" and "complete crap" in your opinion? 🤣.

@LN78 Okay, we're way off topic here and in danger of hijacking this thread. Your example is quite silly, because you're asking me to compare the merits of a hypothetical piece of art vs an actual piece of art, which is an exercise in futility. While I will grant you that the chances of said drunken students creating a worthwhile piece of art are low, they're still there. The general consensus will most likely skew in favour of Lawrence of Arabia as the better piece of art, and I would most likely agree with that, but general consensus still doesn't equate to "objective standards". Subjective, sure. Objective, no.

And the difference between "not good" and "complete crap" is nuance. There are degrees to quality, very little exists on a scale allowing for only "perfect" or "worthless".

@FuriousMachine So as far as you're concerned, a movie shot out of focus isn't objectively worse than one shot in focus? Interesting. And "not good" implies the absence of "good" - which is to say "bad". Not much nuance there, mate.