Topic: Final fantasy discussion thread

@Tasuki @kyleforrester87 this is an argument as old as time. Whos your favourite bond? who is the best footballer of all time? what's your favourite fast food restaurant? At the end of the day I dislike the direction FF took since 11 and 12. They are now commercially rather than artistically driven. 15 (which I quite liked tbh) has little to do with ff6 or ff7 and is a different genre to me.

I came to ff6 late via an emulator, nostalgia is huge for the earlier titles. For me FF6 had you fill in a lot of the blanks and the story is crazy fast moving and not necessarily realistic, were as ff7 is more grounded and relevant today. Both are great. ff7 edges it imo.

@themcnoisy People are free to like what they like, I just take issue with the refusal to accept FF7, 8, 9, etc. do absolutely anything good. In my view even 13 had redeeming points, and I really disliked that game.

@themcnoisy @kyleforrester87 It’s true that the FF games seem to have evolved to the point that they lack much resemblance to the originals. FF16 looks like it will play more like God of War or Devil May Cry than the OG sprite turned-based games. You’re right that it’s most likely a commercially motivated evolution. If the basic style and substance was maintained - say Octopath Traveler was called “FF16”, it probably would have sold a few more copies based on name recognition but I’m guessing it would have still been a fraction of what the action rpg version of the FF16 we’re actually getting is going to sell.

It’s a tricky fine line to walk. Resident Evil ran into a similar situation and by the time they got to RE6 they had lost their way entirely and so Capcom course-corrected and seem to have found a nice balance. Perhaps the same could even be said about Mario, Zelda, God of War, Tomb Raider, … really most franchises, I guess. If developers stay in the same place then you end up running the risk of being left behind, especially when developmental modifications are built around technological advancement like quicker combat, enhanced visuals, more open-ended gameplay, or online functionality. Like I say, I understand the need to stay true to the core ‘je ne sais quoi’ of the IP, but in the case of Final Fantasy my feeling is the jumping off point is probably FF13, if it exists at all. That’s the game that felt the most like it betrayed it’s roots to me. I’m on board with FF16 though, to see if they have pulled a Capcom and salvaged the franchise while also advancing and growing it.

Final Fantasy 3 NDS was my first original NDS game I got since 9 years ago.
It was pretty cute 3D remake of Final Fantasy 3 NES.

@Th3solution great point about resident evil.

I think we can all say ff13 was a misstep, it had a stupid story, painful characters and hardly any npcs. As @kyleforrester87 mentions it had some great bits, like the fighting system, once it opened up.

It would be interesting to see how many longtime fans are interested in ff16. It is so far removed from key pillars of the earlier franchise entrees I have little to no interest. Seems more like fable than final fantasy.

@themcnoisy I agree. FF16 feels like a real inflection point which is about to occur. I wouldn’t be surprised if it will be the first FF game for the majority of its players. Perhaps it will be a touchstone for a new generation of FF fans, so to speak. Similar to what FF7 was for me. I might be one of the few “longtime” FF fans who is really amped for it. And I use quotes because for me, going all the way back to FF7 as my first of the series qualifies as “longtime” but for people who started with FF1 and the 2D games I’m still just a modern bandwagoneer.

If Square-Enix made the same game took out the chocobos and moogles, changed the names of the summons and spells and then just called the game “Legend of the Dark Kingdom” or something completely random instead of calling it “Final Fantasy XVI”, I wonder what the online narrative for the game would be. It would not grab the interest of the longtime gamers who attach nostalgia and excitement to the FF series, but at the same time it would at least quiet the criticism of many of those who say it’s not a “true” Final Fantasy game. I’d like to think that I, for one, would still be interested in it and buy it day one because it just looks like a brilliant game overall to me, but maybe I’m subconsciously artificially hyped because it’s the next big installment of the beloved series that I’ve invested so many hours and memories over the years.

@Th3solution Oh no, I've been summoned.

For reference, I've played every Final Fantasy game at least twice (and some many more times) with the exceptions of:

1. Final Fantasy XI - we didn't have Internet in the village I grew up in when this came out so I've never played it.
2. Final Fantasy XIII and XV I've only played once each.

If you're after a ranking of them then I would preface it by saying that ranking the Final Fantasy series is inherently tricky because of the length of time the series has been going and the various generational leaps and technological advances made during that timeframe. Even pretty drab JRPGs today are better than some of the earlier games in the series if we consider them that way, so it's more useful, I think, to consider them of the time, and what they achieved compared to their contemporaries.

With that in mind I'd say that in ranking them my opinions are probably not particularly controversial with the exception of a couple of entries. Here is my official ranking of the Final Fantasy series for you from worst to best.

I would consider Final Fantasy XIII to be the worst game in the series. Yes, I know people go on about the combat being good and that the game gets better when it opens up towards the end, but I'm here to tell you that the combat is rubbish and a game getting better after forty hours is too much of a time investment to be worth it. Bad characters, nonsensical Square Enix™ storytelling, too much handholding, and a largely tedious combat system. Total misfire.

After that it's Final Fantasy I, II, and III. II is the worst of the bunch but still pretty interesting. Weird levelling up system that is totally broken and exploitable but it's quite novel. I and III are interchangeable for me. Basic JRPGs of which you'll see countless games on PSN of a similar quality that you can buy for coppers. They're worth playing for completism and if you've got time and want to see how the series has progressed etc. but I wouldn't consider any of them essential beyond that.

My first probably controversial take is that I would place Final Fantasy X next in the ranking. For me, the series is on a broadly upward trajectory in terms of quality until Final Fantasy X. There are little dips here and there but X is the first big backwards step, I think. It's like a 6 for me. It's got a cast of largely unlikeable characters, an unremarkable battle system, and side-content that seems geared towards dragging out your playing time with busywork rather than having fun. On the plus side, it has a pretty good villain, some wondrous sights, and pretty good music.

Final Fantasy XV is up next. I really like some things about XV. Great villain. Love his work. I like the sense of adventure and the party dynamic of four friends on a road trip. But the sub-Kingdom Hearts, anime superhero combat is rubbish. It sacrifices everything in an effort to look cool. It's also a massively uneven game with the first half being a largely tedious open world affair, and the second being a totally linear rollercoaster. This is one I would very much like to replay.

Slightly better than that is Final Fantasy XII. XII has all the makings of a banger of a Final Fantasy but for me it's let down by a couple of things. Terrible main character, rubbish combat, and a lacklustre story which ends just as it feels like it's getting interesting. Playing this game is like playing a pretty whatever MMO on your own. I never like systems where you set up instructions and then just watch your party kill things. On the plus side, most of the cast is good, there's some cool locales, and the judges are iconic.

After that I would place Final Fantasy V. V is an odd one in that it seems to throw a lot of what made the previous game compelling out of the window in favour of a totally different approach but I think it works. The customisation options and class-based gameplay are the star of the show here.

Final Fantasy IV is the first game in the series that I would consider to be essential playing for gamers who want to understand the history of the medium etc. etc.. It's a bit like how there were James Bond films before Goldfinger but that's the one that established the rules that the rest of the series now follows, even today. It's the template. Final Fantasy IV has a great story and a really sombre tone and characters that are surprisingly compelling consider when the game released.

This is where I would place Final Fantasy XIV. This is a hard one to rank because of how wildly different it is to the rest of the series by virtue of the fact that it's an MMO, but you can actually play most of it on your own anyway, I suppose. This has a great world, an occasionally fantastic story, tonnes of content, fun characters, etc. MMO combat isn't for everyone and gets quite tedious quite quickly, I think. But the pros outweigh the cons on this one.

Next is probably my second controversial take. Final Fantasy VIII is quite low on a lot of people's lists but it has a kinda cult following of people who really bat for it and I'm one of them. It has big flaws. The battle system is TOTALLY broken. And yeah, Squall is a mopey, sour-faced emo teen. But this one gets major bonus points from me for the really ludicrous story, the banging soundtrack, the Triple Triad card game, and the GF system. I like this one a lot but I understand why many don't.

After that it's Final Fantasy VI which is the second game in the series that I'd consider to be essential to play. This is very much the next logical step after Final Fantasy IV. Great story, world, characters, systems, soundtrack, everything. It's all there.

Final Fantasy VII might be a popular game to dismiss as overrated or whatever but that's life. Aside from a spotty translation it pretty much nails it. Battle system is fun and flexible, iconic soundtrack, great characters and locales, and it contains some of the most memorable moments in all of gaming. This is a stonewall banger and another game that I would consider to be essential playing.

And yeah, number one, officially the best Final Fantasy game according to me, is Final Fantasy IX. IX is to me the quintessential Final Fantasy game. It does it all. Great characters, great villain, loads of heart, it's funny and charming, with wonderful sights and a glorious soundtrack. The only thing it doesn't totally nail is the final boss, but that's a relatively minor quibble.

Anyway, there you go. My Final Fantasy ranking for you.

@johncalmc Outstanding. John, you’re a gentleman and a scholar. I love that. It would make a great soapbox article for the main site. I know outside of Robert, few know this series as a whole better than you.

I really should replay FF9. I remember liking it, but the FF games were coming so quickly back then and I think I didn’t appreciate the finer details of what it accomplished.

One side question, since I find this all fascinating — roughly where would you place FFX-2, FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns, FF7 Remake, and Crisis Core (specifically the new Remake)?

@johncalmc can’t disagree with your list too much at all, I would say FF12 has a pretty great combat system and I am not sure (and will never find out at this point) if you’re right about placing 14 so high!

Struggle to place 7 or 9 in the top spot personally, well done for being able to make a decision there. I always think 9 can get a bit bogged down when you get into the lost/forgotten/outer continents. Basically whenever you’re in Alexandria, Lindblum, Trino etc. it’s just fantastic. You sort of forget the annoying bits until you replay it.. but boy do I love it overall.

Did you play Type-0, and what did you think of it out of interest..? I really enjoyed it when I played the remaster on PS4!

I like FF X storyline that questioning about religion and the truth behind false religion.
Yu Yevon teaching that said against using machines and weapons yet it has machina inside Bevelle Temple, such a hypocrite teaching that made me intrigued about religion in our lives.
I was thinking what if our religions also have some conspiracy like Yevon teaching?

@Th3solution My spin-off opinions are probably the most weird, I think. I actually think both X-2 and XIII-2 are better than the originals which I know people don't agree with. X-2 is obviously stupid, but I think it accomplishes what it sets out to do pretty well, it's really replayable, and I like the battle system a lot. XIII-2 I just think is better in every way than XIII. It's got a good villain, fun time travel mechanics. It would benefit from a full party rather than the monster collecting thing but I did like it.

Lightning Returns I don't think I ever finished so I'm hoping they port the Final Fantasy XIII trilogy at some point (I didn't care for it though, as I recall). Crisis Core I haven't played but I do own.

And Final Fantasy VII Remake I think is close to being an all time great but its held back by massive flaws. First, it's totally padded out with meaningless fluff to try and get it to the length of a full game. There's like ten hours of a great opening to a game in it, dragged out well beyond its limit. Second, it would be much better as a straight remake. I get why they set the whole thing in Midgar and Midgar is wonderful here, but the cost of realising the city to the scope that they have meant that they had to use it more and all they've done is dilute the quality. Oh, and I'm not having any of the Kingdom Hearts nonsense at the end. Dreadful stuff.

@kyleforrester87 I have Type-0 but I haven't played it. I got it years ago in a sale. Maybe I'll finally get around to it once I've gone through all the Pixel Remasters if I still have the itch.

And yeah, on another day I could easily have put VII above IX. They're always my top two though.

I like FF X-2 for certain reasons, it looks like Charlie's Angels version of FF X.
Three young girls in journey for looking a boyfriend then have a feud with the rivals.
The storyline was pretty absurd but I digging the storyline of FF X-2.

I really like FF8 but my main problem with the game is that I had a pirate copy of it back on the PS1 and disc 2 didn’t work

I eventually got a working disc but I’ve completed the first disc sooo many times that I can never bring myself to play through it again now.

I did beat Omega Weapon the one time I completed the game though 💪🏻

@Thrillho
Omega Weapon can be defeated by The End magic from Selphie slot, if you lucky enough.
Or if you have Hero Drinks to make all parties vanished, use Lionhert of Squall to defeat Omega Weapon.

@Thrillho that prison section at the start of disc 2 on FF8 just kills me

@kyleforrester87 I’ve got to the prison 3 times. I’ve never played past the prison.

@nessisonett it’s a legitimate ending at this point, I think. And they all lived happily ever after in prison.

@Anti-Matter It’s so long since I did it but I seem to remember there was an item that let you use limit breaks without low health so you could spam that. Squall, Zell, Irvine were normal party and all had pretty powerful attacks.

@kyleforrester87 @nessisonett Oh god, I’d forgotten about that. I also remember a late game section iiiiin spaaaaaace that sucked as you only had Squall and Rinoa, who was massively under levelled. And it finished with some weird bit of having to catch her from floating off into space which I remember finding a real pain to do.

@Thrillho yeah.. that’s the thing with most of the FF games, there are some real BS sections that you just forget over time. Of the three on PS1, they all have this problem, but I think FF7 has the breeziest annoying sections. For me it’s temple of the ancients and some of the stuff around the north crater. Although the music in city of the ancients alone almost makes up for all that.

The space bit in FF8 should be good but it’s baaaaaaad.

@kyleforrester87 FF7 has some bizarre moments; digging up the key for the Temple of Ancients is bizarre but the dolphin jumping scene was also frustrating as hell at times.