Topic: Why are Souls-like games difficult?

What do Remnant 2, Wo Long, Elden Ring ring all have in common? (Ill even throw in demon souls) Besides there difficulty?? Idk but i dont like it lol The three games above have been my most semi recent purchases with all the same characteristics. Is it a developer thing? Do i just suck at these games? What sets these apart from other action rpgs?

@JoeyBudderz Hope this helps - https://www.thrillist.com/entertainment/nation/soulsborne-gam...

The design choice that I've always found strange about Souls games is that they tend to start off difficult and then get easier, this isn't just a case of the player getting gud but by design. For example Demon's Souls prevents you levelling up before beating the first area, almost the same with Bloodborne although not quite as drastic and even avoidable if you know the secrets of certain items.
Nevertheless I've always thought that it turns many players away.

PS. Souls games are my favourite games.

I absolutely loved Elden Ring, but have no real interest in the others. Elden Ring was all about the freedom, on top of the challenge. It was never a case of blocked progression either, if you found something hard, you could simply explore and move on to something else for a bit until you got a bit better, and levelled up a touch. It was also a joy to just see things in the distance and decide to go and create your own adventures.

It also taught me that a fail screen is nothing to worry about, and I actually enjoyed replaying some boss battles, or areas/dungeons where you advance through waves of enemies. It was also fairly forgiving with save points, so there was not a great deal of "run backs" (I believe that's what it's called) so there was no feeling of frustration at doing the same thing over and over again for no reward. As the only thing you'd have to repeat more than once on the whole were the massive boss battles, and those big battles were fun as f*** to me 😁 I became so casual about rune loss, and accidentally messing up in the open world, that it really chilled me down and I just found the fun in failure too.

Those games are all about the immersion and trying again and again.

From all of those Elden Ring is the one that gives the most freedom. In the others you can be stuck in some places for some time.

I used to be afraid to play those games but after I pushed through Dark Souls Remastered I went and play all other soulsborne games.

One of the best gaming experiences I have ever had

Grinding, patience, and over-leveling is “easy mode” for these games, at least based on my limited experience with Bloodborne, Demon’s Souls, and Dark Souls Remastered. Specifically with DSR, I was so overpowered by end game that the final boss went down with like 3 hits. He was a joke.

Also cheesing is another “easy mode” tactic sometimes, depending on the scenario. I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it — in my opinion the game cheeses the player a lot (an enemy hiding behind a corner who jumps out and pushes you off the cliff for an insta-death, for example. Or various tactics where the collision detection is wonky and the enemy hits you through a wall. Stuff like that). So I have no problem using the game’s inherent mechanics and foibles against itself when I’m up against a tough challenge. Is there a unintended glitchy spot on the arena where the boss inexplicably can’t reach me but I can reach him? I’ll do it. Is there an OP tactic that the developers might have overlooked that I can use like shooting a poison arrow and letting it kill an enemy from afar while I hide? (Looking at you, archers of Anor Londo) I’ll do it. Is there a weird aggro glitch where I can hit the enemy and then run back over an invisible line repeatedly until they’re dead? I’ll do it. Can I bait an enemy to jump and me and quickly dodge out of the way so he jumps past me over a cliff? I’ll do that too.

It’s almost like I enjoy strategizing possible ways to “break” the game, although I honestly think FromSoft leaves these in there as an option to reward players who do a little experimentation.

That said, not every encounter has an easy cheese, and so the over-leveling is also a key strategy for those of us who aren’t very skilled with the timing and pattern recognition based action combat.

Also, through the first two FromSoft games I played I never utilized co-op, either NPC or other gamers, but I tried some of the bosses with the optional NPC assistance when I played DSR and it really does make the encounter much easier. I think FromSoft included that option in there also as an unofficial “easy mode” type of contingency for those struggling.

Souls games to me lack the story as motivation to keep 'persisting', keep trying and trying etc. For some the 'challenge' is the motivation, to beat the game is a 'badge of honour' because its a challenging game but that doesn't motivate me.

I am sure I could keep going until I reach the end, but the challenge alone doesn't motivate me. I've played numerous games on their Hardest difficulty settings, having to repeat certain areas over and over and over again to 'get through' the challenging combat, but there has also been the Story, wanting to move the plot forward and find out where it takes me next, wanting to beat whatever I have to to 'save' the world or whatever the plot is. That narrative helps me 'push' through difficult challenges - I don't feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall for 'nothing' other than the fact that it's there.

I know that there is some kind of story to these games - although its generally 'hard work' to discover it - but I am not motivated to go round looking for any 'lore' or hints at the underlying 'story' as well as feel like I am only playing these games to say I can 'beat' a notoriously 'difficult' game, to wear that 'badge of honour'. That alone doesn't motivate me at all.

I would say that the 'challenge' these games offer is the main reason that people enjoy and play these games. If it was 'easy', then I doubt these games would have the appeal they do as part of that appeal is that 'badge of honour' to say you've beaten the game. As they are 'known' to be challenging, they get 'respect' for overcoming that challenge from others.

@BAMozzy I mostly agree with that, kind of. But in Elden Ring, for me, there was a tonne of motivation based purely on discovery, and wonder. I wasn't big into the challenge, as such, that was part of it, but the main thing about boss fights in that game, was not necessarily the challenge, it was the absolute spectacle of them, which drove me to keep trying if I'd failed certain encounters.

And then in the open world too, the sheer sense of discovery was greater than anything in the last decade, perhaps even ever. It was just joyful. One of the least stressful games I've played, even though it smacked me around from time to time in a way that would frustrate me in another game, I was just too high on it to care.

So maybe that applies to some of the others in some way too? Although I suspect they are more on the side of the pure challenge with some joy still gained from the world/enemy design and art style?

For those of us who are fans of the genre, I’d honestly say that the difficulty is extremely low on the reasons that we like the games. They aren’t even particularly difficult, once you embed the fundamentals. For me (and other souls-like fans that I have spoken with), the reasons we enjoy these games are far more to do with the exploration/discovery, level-design, boss design, aesthetic, lore, atmosphere, gameplay loop etc.

People who don’t play the games always seem to just assume that people who do purport to like souls-likes must only be saying that as a signal to their own gaming skills etc, as how could someone actually like something that ‘I’ don’t. I think that the popularity of Elden Ring went some way to redress this but there are clearly a lot of people who still assume this. We all know what assuming does though 😉

@Ravix @colonelkilgore I didn't say that the ONLY reason to play is for the Challenge - certainly not with newer variations on the 'Souls/Borne' formula that FromSoftware and those that have been heavily influenced by these games, but that part of the reason is that challenge, that kudos/respect. Back before Bloodborne came out, it was a 'badge of honour' and even beating Bloodborne was to a degree too.

As they have 'evolved', their fans are now accustomed to the challenge and other things motivate them - whether its 'exploration', spectacle, discovering the 'lore', the aesthetics, atmosphere etc etc. But I still think that the Challenge was a big part of its appeal when other games have 'easy' mode so people can reach the 'end'. It was a badge of honour to say you have beaten Dark Souls to other gamers of the day who would 'respect' that knowing how 'challenging' they thought the game was.

There are Souls like games now that have a more prominent Narrative running through them for example or a greater sense of discovery, of freedom or whatever other ways developers have taken the 'Souls-like' concept and evolved/adapted it to their project. I may not enjoy Dark Souls for example, but I may love Lies of P or Black Myth: WuKong. May not enjoy Demon Souls or Bloodborne, but like Sekiro or Elden Ring...

I admit I was 'generalising' and remembering numerous discussions of that Dark Souls/DS2 era and trying to respond to the OP on why these games are 'Difficult' (or considered that way) and that was by design. It was designed to pose a Challenge, give a 'risk/reward' system, to feel like you are able to overcome these obstacles as you 'learn' their attack patterns, their weaknesses etc until it becomes relatively 'easy'. That boss that you couldn't beat time and time again, now you can get past them with ease as you know when to dodge and how best to attack. I can't remember which DS game it was (DS2 - I think) that starts off with a very difficult Boss that arguably, you are not 'meant' to fight but until you realise you can 'flee' through a specific door, you can die 'countless' times trying to beat it. A 'valuable' lesson, but can also put people off if they don't realise that as its not 'obvious'. The challenge isn't 'always' in the 'fight', its also in working out the situation you find yourself and overcoming it by 'learning' what you need to learn (attack patterns, weak points, strategies or even the 'room' layout if 'escaping' a boss is what's required...

I know some people don't like that aspect either and prefer to know exactly what's expected, where to go etc. Want the narrative to drive them on, want hints, tips and obvious 'clues' on how to progress etc. They want a more guided, hand held experience or at least one that they aren't 'stuck' on something for more than 3-4 attempts.

EVERY game 'regardless' - will likely have 'different' reasons they appeal to gamers. All I am saying is that in 'general' and certainly back in the early days, beating these games was certainly seen as a badge of honour but that has subsided somewhat in recent years with Sekiro, Elden Ring and 'numerous' games inspired by FromSoftware's 'Souls' games. I don't really think of Elden Ring or Sekiro as 'Souls' games even if they have certain 'souls' like aspects and as such offer something 'else' too - Elden Ring that big open world to explore for example and to choose when/who to fight or Sekiro and its setting, the movement, the different style of Combat/game-play etc

As I was responding 'purely' to the OP who specifically asked 'Why are Souls-like games so Difficult?', then a major part of that is the 'Challenge' they present. Whether you, because you have enjoyed and 'learned' what these games are teaching you to the point that the 'challenge' is minimised, doesn't make them any 'less' difficult for others coming into this genre. That 'Challenge' was what set Souls games apart from the majority of others that offered 'easy' modes so gamers could reach the end, but FromSoftware expected players to 'learn' how to beat their games and overcome whatever 'challenges' they presented, learn what you need to do to get past even the toughest of enemies, even if that means 'fleeing', going off and 'leveling' up or repeatedly fighting to learn its attack patterns, its weak points and learn/develop a strategy to overcome it.

It's a far cry from dropping the difficulty down to progress or be given hints/clues to help as basically every game was being built to be 'accessible' to more gamers regardless of their 'gaming' ability, want them to experience the Story, even if you can play through destroying every enemy and barely taking any damage yourself. That was also what set Souls games apart from others so even if you didn't ever play a DS game, you knew that those that beat these, beat a 'difficult' game and therefore it was a Badge of Honour. Of course over a decade later, Souls-like is now an established 'genre' with numerous different Studios using that 'souls-like' experience to create their games and adding their own twist, setting, tweak etc that the 'Challenge' aspect is a 'given' these days - its expected and/or normalised now because its 'expected' of that genre - then it comes down to setting, game-play loop, story or whatever else on top of that which appeals.

@BAMozzy I don't feel like that is true at all about Souls games. I don't think people play it for that "badge of honor". I think you're selling the game and its players short.

I've been getting in touch both in real life and online with Souls players and what I notice is that they are just great games to talk about with others, more than other games.

For every Souls game, whether I finished them or not, if I meet someone we have something to talk about. "What build did you use", "How did you beat this boss", "Did you find this item", "Did you discover this lore".

If we're comparing Star Wars Jedi Fallen Order to Bloodborne. Jedi Fallen Order borrows elements from From games, but it's way less interesting to talk about.
Take that first planet you get to free roam. There is a map so you can see how everything is connected, there are markers and counters for finding collectibles, and also there aren't many different ways to play the game.

Now Bloodborne. I main'ed a weapon that most people didn't use. There is no map. So when I played with someone from Push Square, they showed me a shortcut in the first area, that I had not found after 60 hours. And items? Until this day I don't know if I found everything, so every day I could meet someone who can learn me something new about the game.

That's what makes Souls games so beautiful, and quite unique. There will always be more to discover and talk about. Unparalleled in that quality.

And 100%'ing any great game, like Horizon, is a less exciting thing than finding an irrelevant secret in a Souls game all on your own.

@BAMozzy Sorry, I was typing my response while you have posted yours. Your last post already clarified a lot up about your prior statements!

@Kidfried When I try and keep things 'literally' to the point the OP was asking, I get others questioning and/or even making snide remarks. Then if I go deeper into that, I end up typing 'essays' and get criticised for 'long' posts.

I thought I answered as the Difficulty was 'intentional' at a time when virtually every game had difficulty settings to be 'more' accessible, it was a 'badge of honour' to beat a 'difficult' game that 'few' would bother persevering, bother to 'learn' the game without being 'told' what to do or guided through it. That 'challenge' was what separated Souls games from the rest - which have now expanded way beyond the FromSofts 'Souls' games and now an established 'genre' including many games made by other developers too. That 'difficulty' became expected, more people realise that dying can teach you something so it becomes 'normalised' in this genre and 'even' less Difficult because you have much more 'experience' and knowledge of this 'genre' to apply as well. Like I said, if you've never come across a boss you are not meant to 'fight', you'll never look for the exit door - expecting it to be 'locked' until you beat the Boss - so it gets 'easier' the more you play these games but for 'newcomers', they may find them very difficult as they are used to being hand-held through games.

Whether you played because of that challenge or not, others would certainly view that as a badge of honour, that you must be some 'hardcore' or 'god' tier gamer to beat a 'notoriously' difficult game that they themselves didn't have the 'ability' to beat and/or gave up due to the 'difficulty', didn't have the patience or motivation to learn from the game...

Anyway, I hope that I have 'now' explained what I meant and the fact that I was answering the OP directly who themselves asked why these are so difficult and 'historically', it was the Challenge of overcoming a game that doesn't hand hold, that doesn't allow you an 'easy' mode, that actually feels 'rewarding' when you put so much time, effort and learning to progress instead of the game telling you what to do, how to do it and where to go...

Difficulty is always 'relative'. 100% Horizon on Easy mode maybe 'less' exciting to you but on the Hardest difficulty is a much more 'rewarding' experience. To another, they get no 'reward' from trying for hours and hours, find it increasingly frustrating to chip away at 'health' over and over and over and over again only to die and have to try again, feel like they get nowhere. Their 'reward' is getting to the next checkpoint, the next 'cut-scene' to find out where the story goes next. Never played a Souls-like after playing games that literally guide you through, give very obvious clues, hints etc and even allow you to turn the difficulty down to 'progress', then these can seem extremely vague and 'difficult'. Play a LOT of Souls-like, you have a lot more knowledge, experience and 'understand' that you will have to rely on your knowledge/experience to 'learn' how to reach the end so won't seem as difficult anymore...

It was a 'badge of honour' to beat these games at a time when every other game had 'easy' mode. Even if you beat a game on 'insane' difficulty, much more 'difficult' than Souls games, it wasn't the same 'badge of honour' because others had also reached the 'end' on Easy mode. That 'Challenge' was what separated Dark Souls from its contemporaries of the day...

For the next topic: can we address why do roguelike games require repeated attempts...

As to the OP. Why do you keep buying them if you don't like them?

@sorteddan 🤣

@BAMozzy Like I said before, I misunderstood until the post you made right before mine!