@GirlVersusGame That’s a good comparison of FromSoft’s NightReign and the Guerilla Horizon Hunter’s games. One seems to be true to the studio’s legacy and artistic vision, the other feels like… well, different, and more familiar with other popular franchises (Fortnite, Marvel Rivals, etc). I’m sure that the Horizon Hunter game will have some novel ideas, but the first impressions don’t really excite me. But like others have said, I’m not the target audience so it’s fine, I guess. Other studios will fill the void in the meantime while we wait for Horizon 3. I’m playing Forbidden West now, so I’m set for a while.
@Th3solution I didn't know what Marvel Rivals was but I checked and sure enough that's a game alright. I don't think I've ever seen Fromsoft allow that aesthetic to be altered and I've read all of the technical manuals from the studio (what they call art-books, the big Japanese ones) and then there are all the graphic novels and obscure merchandise. They seem to be very careful with everything Souls related. It's possible the Lego Horizon Zero Dawn collaboration gave them a glimpse of the market for children's games, it can be lucrative and often low effort. They then probably looked at Fortnite and those gears started turning. I really enjoyed Forbidden West, more than the first game too. It felt more open and fleshed out. I think I played it day one, I don't do that often but the first one made a big impression. I think Alloy was the second time I saw a female protagonist, Lara Croft being the first. I can't name any others but for Nikki from Infinity Nikki. Maybe Life is Strange.
Either way Alloy stood out as did her world and everything in it. That art-work and world in the trailer stood out for all of the wrong reasons. I'm going to look at it as the 007 Racing of the Bond franchise, not using an I.P. is always seen by investors as stagnation. Compared to other games especially live-service not using that potential would be seen as eroding value. We see it as 'we need a third game', they see it as 'we need to diversify and explore other options and avenues', I understand both sides but I only like one side. That's where the industry is now, it makes perfect sense (from that side) but the part they are forgetting is that they don't really understand their audience, they are using predictions and projections based on similar titles and that can come back to sting a studio. I could see them releasing an Anime to tie-in with that game, they'll realize that the reception isn't what they expected and scramble to find other ways to hook people. There's the movie next year too, Columbia Pictures and Sony are still in pre-production/development. I just hope we do get a third game.
No one said it yet? I read what you shared before about woke, and I'm saying this in an un-biased manner, I think they may also be aiming for that demographic with that game and I mean that strictly as an observer with no agenda. I don't even have enough of a foot in the world to understand it fully, that's just the impression I got when I saw it. Maybe it's like how you say, eggs in one basket? They could be trying both markets to see what sticks. I see it more as an experiment than anything else, or maybe even an evolution of what was already there. I've seen reasons why people didn't like Forbidden West and one of them was that diversification which I'm blind to (people are people) but it's risky to change the mold with certain I.P.s and franchises. I could be wrong, I look at most things from a technical and aesthetical point of view. The style, the colours, the pacing, and the theme felt alien to what I knew as Horizon Zero Dawn and it's probably because I do spend so much time looking at production sketches and conceptual designs. It's hard to take the change as positive when you see how much groundwork was laid. I'd be curious what the original artists think, they were the ones who helped visualize and develop Alloy and her world. It's supposed to be bleak and post-apocalyptic, those machines are supposed to be a challenge not mindless cannon fodder. It looked more like Palworld and I play that too.
That's what the machines reminded me of. The robots (mousers) that Master Splinter beat with his stick. Very sterile and simplified, not at all complex.
Taken from the foreword of their last art-book. What must those artists think now? That's what I ask myself.
These violent delights have violent ends & in their triumph die, like fire & powder Which, as they kiss, consume.
@GirlVersusGame Time will tell whether this experiment with Hunters Gathering works. I did notice in the press release video that they are pleading for community feedback early on, and I can only assume it’s to avoid a Concord disaster where everyone seemed to be sending the message that they had no interest and yet the studio didn’t really seem to take the feedback.
I don’t mind them going for a different demographic but the Horizon franchise is built around Aloy. Yes, the world they created is awesome and I love the old tribal culture + technology, machines, and Sci-Fi. But I think they have to be careful creating a game that doesn’t involve Aloy, as we found out with that VR game that seemed to bomb. Apparently Aloy is in this Hunter game, but it’s not clear to me if she’s playable.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Werehog No sign of him. I must have imagined him! Anyway, good to know there are Varl and Erend stans like you out there!
Phew! For a second there, I thought I'd somehow missed my favourite character's inclusion! Although I can't really blame you. My mind often wanders back to Varl, too.
@Werehog Also, the voice acting bit is interesting. Like: why didn't Aloy have a voice? Why did they change Erend's voice actor? You don't have to use those characters for a game like this, and without their voice actors, what's the point of including them? And moreso: why didn't these actors lend their voices for this game?
Aloy's inclusion in the trailer struck me as a marketing touchstone, nothing more. She's the mascot for all things Horizon after all, so just having her "hand off" to Erend's narration made for a neat introduction, and a way to assure audiences that this new vision for the series was still part of the Horizon continuity. I'm certain that, if she shows up in-game as an interactive NPC, she'll be voiced.
As for re-casting voice actors, there can be a dozen good reasons for doing it. In several previous examples, my disappointment has led me to suspect or fear the worst, but more often than not it's simply something mundane, like scheduling or travel issues. I mean, voice acting is just another job!
They already did some re-casting in LEGO Horizon Adventures. Sylens was an unfortunate necessity due to the tragic loss of Lance Reddick, but they also re-cast Teersa. Not only that, but I also seem to recall watching the first gameplay trailer for that game and thinking to myself, "That's not John MacMillan!" and I'm pretty sure I was right, yet he was still the voice of Varl in the final product, so these might just be placeholder voices we're listening to right now.
"If I let not knowing anything stop me from doing something, I'd never do everything!"
@MaulTsir Well, I can't fault you for not jumping into X-2 instantly! I think I have about two or three longer RPGs in me yearly, and I'd hate to play any back-to-back now matter my enjoyment. But yeah, I'm not surprised that the simple act of aging has helped you to appreciate X more in retrospect. As Sol has already spoiled, I'm not familiar with many JRPGs myself, and it took until Metaphor: ReFantazio and Xenoblade Chronicles over the last two years to ignite my interest in the genre. I wouldn't say I had the same thought of it being "more for girls" back in the day, but I did look down on them for their more earnest, over-the-top nature rather than the dark, serious storytelling I exclusively felt was a sign of quality.
Like I said, do let me know of how you'll react to X-2 if ever you get to it! I'm very intrigued. Especially with how your opinion on the main entry has changed over time, and the sequel likely playing into the initial judgments you had more than ever.
***
@Th3solution And I have to ask, since I reminded myself earlier of its existence combined with you being my resident FF expert... Have you ever played Theatrhythm: Final Bar Line (or any of the older entries)? I don't know why I'm asking, since I obviously wouldn't play it unless I've grown an attachment to the franchise... which currently is presumptuous, but I'm just an incredibly curious fellow. I'm not sure how appreciative of the franchise's soundtracks or musically inclined you are. It seems to be for a very specific type of FF fan!
@Tjuz First to directly answer the question — No, I’ve never played any Theatrhythm games. I’m barely aware of them, to be honest.
And secondly, on the subject of FF Spinoffs — As much as I have liked FF over the years, I have almost no experience with FF spinoffs. It’s hard enough keeping up with the mainline series; the endless amount of supplementary games is more than I have time and attention for. A couple exceptions to this exist, most recently FF7 Crisis Core, which I skipped back when it came out but played the remastered version because the VII remake series really made Crisis Core story a more integral part of the main plot line. And another exception I can think of is one or two of the Dissidia games that I vaguely remember playing back as a lad on PSP. I remember it being pretty fun. And back then there was a lot more limited options in gaming so I ended up getting wooed into Dissidia because of their link to FF. Another spinoff I tried, if you want to call it that, was the first Kingdom Hearts game. I’ve mentioned this before but I just never really got into that game series. I made it part way through the first game and wasn’t enjoying it enough to stick with it. Seeing as how the series went on to be so convoluted and dragged out, I’m kinda glad that I abandoned it early on. 😅
And finally, regarding my own musicality and the rhythm game genre in general —
I am not musically inclined, in the sense that I don’t play any instruments and can’t carry much of a tune. I do however appreciate music on a surface level even though I consider myself quite uneducated in that sphere. As far as music goes, I like what I like, and most music aficionados probably look down on my plebeian tastes.
As a result of my non-musicality, when it comes to video game music, I’m embarrassed to say that it’s often an aspect of the game that I notice the least, consciously anyway. No doubt a good musical score helps to build a mood and emphasize what’s on screen, but I usually only appreciate it in retrospect, or if I’m concentrating on the sounds and music specifically. There’s obviously exceptions to that and truly outstanding video game music will stand out to my undiscerning ears from time to time. If I notice it, usually it’s an exceedingly well done musical set.
Which brings us to music-centric or rhythm games. I played my fair share of Guitar Hero back when that was a thing, along with Bust-A-Groove, a little Parappa the Rapper, Pat-A-Pon (sp?), and probably some other rhythm based games I can’t remember, back when those were popular. But more germane to your Theatrhythm question, I really loved the Persona musical spinoff games. I played all of them — the games for Persona 3 (Dancing in Moonlight), Persona 4 (Dancing All Night), and Persona 5 (Dancing in Starlight). In fact, they are 3 of my 43 Platinum trophies. Persona music is so incredibly catchy and fun, and the music games are all supplemental stories also (albeit cheesy ones) with the original characters from the base game, so there’s a draw not only for the music, but also to get a chance to ‘hang out’ with these wonderful characters again.
So it’s an answer to a question that you didn’t ask 😅, but as far as JRPG music/rhythm spinoffs go, the Persona games are my jam! The FF music is good, but I never felt drawn to play a game around it.
Apparently Wolverine's release leaked as 2026 Q3 which is between July-September and when we connect it with "Fall 2026" from official trailer in an unsurprising way we will play both Phantom Blade 0 and Wolverine in the same month: September.
@Th3solution See, these Dissidia spin-offs are ones I'm entirely unfamiliar with... there's too many of them! Though, I say that as if I should be expected to be aware of anything as someone who hasn't played a single one, haha. A shame Kingdom Hearts didn't catch on for you! I haven't played any of them either (surprise), but I have always been interested for the Disney side of things. Like you said however, with all the constant criticism on how convoluted and ridiculous it gets... it's a hard sell to get into all these decades later with all those ridiculously long runtimes.
I feel like I should've known this information about you not playing any instruments or carrying a tune before we invited you into our bard band. Maybe you're a solid dancer? I totally relate to everything you said regarding your music tastes being rather basic nor noticing music all that often in games. When I posted my Xenoblade Chronicles impressions, someone rightfully called me out on that fact that I made no mention of its beautiful score. Like yourself, through no ill intent or dislike of the music, it's just simply not an aspect of a game I factor into my experience no matter how amazing it might be. I guess we can say all games are just trying to get our attention specifically with the music, because if they did, they know it's a hit!
I didn't even know the Persona games had rhythm game spin-offs! Huh. On one hand, I'd say it seems like an odd match, but then the music is often praised so... why not? I don't really have experience with rhythm games all that much (another huge surprise, I'm sure). Do we count LEGO Rock Band on the DS as a Guitar Hero-level jam-out? If so, I nailed that! 😅
@Tjuz The Persona music rhythm game spinoffs are really fun. Like I mentioned, I think part of the attraction is the music but also the way that you grow connected to the characters in the mainline games. The story setup for the rhythm games is pretty ridiculous and I remember rolling my eyes occasionally. I could be wrong but I think what happened is that the idea for a rhythm game spinoff sprang from the fact that one of Persona 4’s more popular characters is a pop idol (yup, as if she were lifted from the development pages of FFX-2) and so the setup is there for an epilogue story surrounding some music-based adventuring. Then I think after P4 Dancing All Night was successful, Atlus thought they could springboard off that game to make the Persona 3 and Persona 5 music spinoffs, which follow a similar design.
Like I say, I recall the narrative for them all to be fairly disposable and so it probably wouldn’t be too bad to play them without having played the associated mainline games, but I really don’t know why one would do that without knowing the characters and the setting of the world. In fact, as you get to the P3 and P5 dancing games, not only does the narrative depend on knowing the corresponding main game characters and story, but also being familiar with the story of the P4 dancing game. So to play those without the foreknowledge of P4 Dancing All Night would also be discouraged, technically speaking. So despite each Persona game being independent as a standalone narrative and unique unrelated characters, there’s a strange loose link between the music spinoffs, if that makes sense. It’s all a bit vague in my memory though.
Regardless, if you were looking for a good music rhythm game (which I don’t know that you necessarily are) then I can highly recommend the Persona ones but you’d really need to play the main games (P3-P5) first which is a 200-300 hour investment. 😂 The Persona games are great though. Like FF, you’ll get fans which have differing opinions on the best one but any of P3, P4, or P5 are all good jumping in points. The upcoming Persona 4 Remake (known as “P4 Revival” I think) would be a great place to start, as that game is probably the most iconic. I just don’t know if it’s coming to PC or only to consoles. Since you like the idea of the Japanese pop idol heroines then P4 might have some draw for you. It’s not front and center like FFX-2, but there is that one main character who’s an idol.
But yes, as far as my own musicality and qualifications of being a traveling bard adventurer, what I lack in innate talent I make up for with many hours of virtual dancing via an avatar whilst pushing buttons to the beat.
Or as Liam Neeson would say, “what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long [gaming] career…”. 😜
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution I've taken a look at the Persona rhythm games and I don't deny that they look very fun! Just the whole concept of taking an existing story and characters and then turning it onto its head with something silly like this also appeals to me greatly. It reminds me of something like the several Dynasty Warriors spin-off series they have for Nintendo IP. It's a shame that I'm not into either Zelda or Fire Emblem (yet), because those ideas similarly intrigued me. Persona might be my best bet on that front... if I ever manage to get through the humongous lengths of those games! I seemed to manage alright with Metaphor: ReFantazio however, which annoyingly does not have a rhythm spin-off. I'm waiting, Atlus! If ever I do get to the point where I could try them, I hope they'll have ported them to PC by then. It feels like sacrilege to say on PushSquare of all places, but I still don't have access to a PlayStation. Maybe they're on the cloud streaming service with any luck.
(Side note: I think it was you I spoke to before in regards to the PlayStation cloud streaming. I actually bought a subscription last month to try Puppeteer as I had said I wanted to... only to find out that since I had a Dutch PlayStation account, the service would only offer me the game in the Dutch dub. For a game that is entirely set around it being a stage show where the voice acting is half the charm, I refuse to play with the lesser dubs my country puts out! Sadly, there was no alternative in changing the language, so I've had to give up on that. I might have to try emulation, but from what I saw, it seemed like the game was quite problematic there.)
I'm always up for trying a new genre, so I am interested by your enthusiasm for the games! Just unfortunate that it'll require a 200-300 hour time commitment to get the most out of it, haha. It's funny you mention Persona 4 Revival. I just saw a joking tweet today or yesterday about how "Atlus forgot they started work on the game, only to forget it and not make progress for 8 months." I don't know the lore behind the remake, but it sounds like people are fed up with how long it's taking. I wonder if it'll be out any time soon! I might have to simply try Persona 3 first since that already has its remake out. You a fan of that one in particular too, or is it a lower note in the series for you personally?
Wait... do I see you dancing over there, Sol? Is that you?
@Tjuz Ah, that’s too bad the cloud streaming is so limited for you. Hopefully you’re able to utilize your subscription for some other games instead.
On the subject of Persona, I think P3, P4, and P5 all have their fans. I think I’d rank P4 at the top, but could easily be swayed to rank any of the three as best. They’re very similar, so it all comes down to which characters and story click with you the most. The P3 remake (Persona 3 Reload) is supposed to be excellent. I played the original back on PS2 and thought it was great even back then and I suspect the remake is way better. Most people’s favorite is P5, I think. It’s likely to be the closest to Metaphor, stylistically and structurally.
I don’t have any inside knowledge about P4 Revival, but I thought it was targeting a 2026 release date. I played the version on Vita, Persona 4 Golden, which was already an enhanced updated port from the PS2 original.
Playing any of the three would be fine as your first Persona game. P5 was a lot of people’s entry point. And you’re way ahead by having played Metaphor because, although I’ve not yet played it, everyone says it’s really a similar game to the Persona series.
And.. 😂 As far my dancing skills, in my mind I look more like this:
@Th3solution Any particular reason you haven't dipped your toes into Persona 3 Reload (yet)? Is it just the thought of spending over a 100 hours in a game you've already experienced, or is there more to it? Even if just the former, I totally understand that, haha. There was such a long time where Persona 5 was all you'd ever hear any JRPG fan talk about. Years, it felt like! I'm surprised by what a downturn it has taken in terms of discussion. I feel like nowadays I hear people exclusively talking about the other ones. I guess that might have to do with the Remake, but even then, it's an odd switcheroo. I guess 5 brought a lot of people into the series who then went back to the older ones as they came to modern platforms, so it's been kind of left in the dust as the one that introduced everyone but no longer seems to be the golden child (as far as I can tell). You're saying it's still highly regarded amongst Persona fans at least, so what do I know?
I think Metaphor: ReFantazio both works for and against me in terms of trying out the Persona series. On one hand, I enjoyed it enough that I'd be intrigued by games in a similar style, which they undoubtedly are. On the other hand, it was equally a game that I enjoyed less and less as the playtime started getting near the 100-hour mark. What started as a clear 9/10 for me became a 7/10 at the end. Still solid, but I have my issues with its length and pacing. From whatever discourse I've heard on Persona, the pacing often seems to be an issue there as well... and if anything, it sounded like Metaphor: ReFantazio was an improvement in ways on gameplay like the dungeon design and such. It makes me a little hesitant to commit to a game of that size again from the same developers knowing it might feel like a regression to some degree while also having the same risk of being less enjoyable over time. I don't know! I will have to try my hand at them some day simply to see what the hype is all about, but I'm not sure if it'll be any time soon.
I will answer your question —
“Any particular reason you haven't dipped your toes into Persona 3 Reload (yet)?”
With your own quote (only apply it to my most recent Persona experience) —
“…it was equally a game that I enjoyed less and less as the playtime started getting near the 100-hour mark. What started as a clear 9/10 for me became a 7/10 at the end. Still solid, but I have my issues with its length and pacing…”
😂 Your remarks about Metaphor almost perfectly echo my own thoughts about my Persona 5 experience. By the end of it I was so fatigued and burned out on the Persona formula… I felt like Bilbo when he said. “I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread…” It was like something really good was spread out so protractedly that it eventually lost its flavor.
And I’ve had a hard time getting an appetite for the series again. But I didn’t feel that way after Persona 3 or 4. And I played a couple other side SMT games also. After each one I felt satisfied and looked forward to another, but somehow P5 broke me.
And it’s not fair to taint your view of P5 that way, because indeed it is a great game. And I really do think it’s still beloved by fans and casuals alike. It had the most stylistic flair of all their games (not sure about Metaphor), music is fantastic, the characters are fun, and the dungeons are much better designed than its predecessors. It’s just that I really started to resent the game toward the end, as it kept going on and on.
It’s validating to hear you express the exact same sentiment for Metaphor, because I feel like people think me crazy when I say that P5 was too long. I mean, I only played the base game! I didn’t even plan P5 Royal which is the definitive experience and adds a whole other party member and a bunch more content. I think it’s another 20+ hours of game, and I believe I clocked my P5 playthrough in the 130-ish hours, iirc.
In retrospect, I was my own worst enemy because of the way I play these RPGs. I’m a completionist and I played in a way to max out all the social links and do all the dungeon and life sim stuff. It was probably too much.
With all that said, I did not feel burnt out by P3 or P4. So take all this with a grain of salt.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution Ah! I see you changed your profile picture. For a second there, I was thinking: "Who's this peasant who dares disturb my deep slumber? I don't recognise this woman!" Luckily, the username still gives it away or I'd have you ask for an audience. 😉
Ha, it's funny to hear that both Metaphor and Persona 5 gave us the exact same experience. With the exact same consequences too, us both now being hesitant to start a new Atlus game. I suppose it doesn't speak well for whatever their next big endeavour will be, but it's promising to me that you don't share that feeling between the third and fourth entries. I'm sorry I wasn't able to do the same for you and likely just validated your fears! Like you said with Persona 5, Metaphor would've likewise benefited for leaving a fair amount on the cutting room floor. It's a shame that (presumably) in both games you see the fantastic foundation, only for it to flounder as it goes. And.... the "other side SMT games"? Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't they actually the origins of these series and Persona is the spin-off? That's what I've always been led to believe, though SMT has easily been eclipsed in popularity by its younger cousin. I wonder what about the Persona games appeals so much more that it was able to outshine its predecessor. I suppose the whole school setting is more relatable and/or recognisable than... whatever SMT is about. Something, something demons!
We might have equally stumbled in how we aimed for 100% completion with these games however. I had the exact same approach with Metaphor. No stone unturned, all social links maxed. I'd rather play it like that and avoid endless grinding than rush through it and constantly run into difficulty spikes due to being underleveled however. I don't know how people get through these games without doing literally all it has to offer without grinding! I can't imagine it's a more fun time than actually experiencing new areas and enemies. What I appreciated about Metaphor in the few times I had to grind a little bit however, is that any enemy that was three levels lower than you was an auto-win. You wouldn't even enter a battle screen. The game would just eliminate the enemy in the overworld and award you the XP for what anyway would've been a surefire win. If memory serves, it's the first time an Atlus game had a feature like that, and I was able to make grand use of it!
@Th3solution Ah! I see you changed your profile picture. For a second there, I was thinking: "Who's this peasant who dares disturb my deep slumber? I don't recognise this woman!" Luckily, the username still gives it away or I'd have you ask for an audience. 😉
😂
Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
@Tjuz Yes, actually I think you’re right about Persona being more of the spinoff series from the foundational SMT games. Honestly, I don’t remember much about the SMT games I played except for the shared aesthetics, nomenclature, and spirit of the series with Persona. This was mostly back on the PS1, PS2 and PSP, I think, and I dabbled in whatever games were ported to those systems in the U.S. I even played the version Persona 2 that we got. It’s all a blur in my memory. It was a different time and a very different gaming industry. Ports from Japan were spotty and not always consistent, there were no digital games or PS+ types of services, and I was a lad who really shouldn’t have been playing games with such mature content anyway. Somehow I found a way to get ahold of a lot of these though. It was the days when the JRPG ruled and I was also gobbling up Final Fantasy games and other gems out of Japan like MGS, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, Okami, Gran Turismo, etc. Of course there were Western IP that I enjoyed too as GoW, Jak & Daxster, Tomb Raider, and Tony Hawk drew a lot of my attention also.
And I think that the reason Persona took off in the West, more so than SMT, might have to do with the more grounded school setting. The series still has a fairly dark tone, with the demons and all, but there’s a lighthearted nature and coming of age quality that resonated with me over the years. Perhaps some of my recent disinterest is also due to a feeling of having ‘outgrown’ that part of it and playing as a schoolboy isn’t quite as relatable as it once was. Interestingly, I remember years ago as a gamer having a hard time relating to older protagonists and now it’s shifting to the opposite direction. Playing MGS 4 was one of those early memories when I had a distinct emotional disconnect with the old and arthritic Snake. 😅 I still really enjoyed the game but I wonder how it will hit me now 18 years later.
The obsessive-compulsive 100% gameplay approach is a subject in and of itself, one which I’ve recently expressed my struggles with. But that gameplay mechanic of auto-win combat based on your level is a brilliant idea. I actually don’t know if I’ve ever played any game that had that as you’ve described the way Metaphor handles it. Certainly in the Persona series you’d still enter a battle screen and have to go through the motions to a degree, although I think some of the games may have an ‘auto’ option where you hit a button and the game takes over and speeds up time while you quickly see your party dispatch the enemies with basics attacks and then get the battle end screen. Unless I’m completely forgetting something, I think Metaphors more streamlines approach is unique. Imagine if the Souls games did something like that. Run backs to the bosses would be much more manageable! 😄
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
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