@Ralizah@JohnnyShoulder having just read the article it appears as if the Elden Ring map situation ‘could’ be a happy-medium between both camps. It sounds like as you explore you find map fragments in the nooks-and-crannies of the labyrinthine ‘dungeons’ and they eventually combine to produce a complete map. It states that you don’t get full visibility right off the bat.
I get the impression that the ‘open-field’ section will probably be mapped right away and the then the castles, cave-systems, swamps etc. (‘dungeons’) will require exploration to build the map. As ever, I trust in Miyazaki above all other game designers/directors, so as far as the content of the article I’m open to it.
@Ralizah@nessisonett Dunno, think I'm a bit fed up with some people just assuming adding things to the games (such as a map, easy mode etc) will make them better, when the majority of people that already enjoy the games aren't calling for those changes.
Sorry if I insulted anyone or anything, that wasn't my intention and was more of a general comment.
Dunno, think I'm a bit fed up with some people just assuming adding things to the games (such as a map, easy mode etc) will make them better, when the majority of people that already enjoy the games aren't calling for those changes.
Because adding those features into their games WOULD improve the games for many people. Sometimes dramatically. It's not like in-game maps are some new-fangled, untested innovation. They're standard in pretty much every game featuring exploration going back generations, and even in the old ones that couldn't include them due to tech limitations, physical maps were often included with the games, or players were expected to create their own maps. Difficulty settings (which, for the record, I don't care about either way; the difficulty of these games is fine for me), likewise, are pretty standard in a lot of video games. It's not difficult to scale damage multipliers up or down, if nothing else.
If they wouldn't improve the games for you, then that's fine: not every option or change in every game is going to appeal to everybody. As a hardcore Soulsborne fan, they, frankly, don't need to really do anything else to get you on board. And, like I said, if those changes were made to be optional, then fans who prefer the old style lose nothing in the process.
As it stands, From Software IS making some changes, like adding map support, to appeal to a wider variety of gamers, so it's a moot point, really.
It also took modders 7 years to add a map to the first Dark Souls, so it wouldn't be a simple case of just adding it to the game. It proved a very problematic due to all Souls games using Havok for physics and collision detection, and all the games' collision data is stored in a proprietary Havok format, and From added their own customisations on top of the format.
I don't recall anyone suggesting From Software should go back to older games and patch maps into them. For better or for worse (worse, in my opinion), those games were designed without maps. Although I'd argue fans struggling for years to patch a map system into Dark Souls somewhat undermines your assertion that fans don't want maps in these games.
Currently Playing: Metroid Prime 4: Beyond (NS2); Corpse Factory (PC)
@Ralizah I edited my post and removed the bit about the modders taking 7 years to add a map, as it was actually a whole new section of the world, and not just a map overlay or in the corner. My bad. 😂
Just because it works for other games, doesn't immediately mean it will work for all games. I've got the Design Works art books for the first two Dark Souls games, with quite an extensive interview with some of the developers. In this, the director of the first game Hidetaka Miyazaki does mention he is very particular with certain elements of the game, this does include the challenge of the game and there being no map in the game etc. This all adds to the feeling and atmosphere of the game, which is intentional by the developers. I think this why some fans get annoyed when people say 'just add an easy mode, just add a map, it makes no difference'.
I'm genuinely not trying to be elitist or a knob or anything like that over this, but if people still don't understand why some fans see it as a problem, I'm not sure what else myself or others can really say.
Like I said before I have no problem with a map being in Elden Ring. I've not even played the game so can't comment on how that will affect the game. As far as I know, it was always planned to have a map for the overworld with it being more open than the previous games.
Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
I found this to be a good breakdown of what was recently revealed from the various sources that saw the gameplay footage.
Some shakeups that will nudge us along as we chart a course across the Lands Between:
The bonfire-equivalent “grace” checkpoints can point you toward your next main objective with a guiding light trail (as seen in a prior screenshot with the pot lads).
Aside from restoring health with an Estus Flask equivalent, you can regain a bit of your health by “defeating mobs of enemies out in the world” — this was done so players can “stay exploring” for longer. “You’ll be coming across grace checkpoints a little bit less often [than bonfires],” according to VaatiVidya.
Sprinting doesn’t use up stamina when you’re not in combat.
You may encounter a “field” boss, like a dragon, that can be fought “freely” in the open world. There are hand-crafted dungeons with beefy bosses, too.
Elden Ring has a “hand-drawn”-style map (with player-set markers that appear as pillars of light in the world), and your hero’s location is shown in real-time. I've seen this been compared in style to the one found in Octopath Traveller.
You can fill in chunks of the map with scattered “map fragments.”
There’s also more verticality, in general, which is great to hear post-Sekiro.
While you’re out traversing the Lands Between on your Spirit Steed you will eventually run into Dungeons and Legacy Dungeons. Dungeons are smallish enclosed areas that are full of traps, monsters, and a Boss that reward the player with equipment, Skills, or other rewards. Legacy Dungeons are much larger and are sort of their own sub-area inside the Lands Between. They are called Legacy Dungeons because they are about the size and style of what one area from a Souls game would be, allowing for a sort of pseudo self-contained theme and experience.
Illusory walls are back. We’re going to hug all the walls, aren’t we?
According to From Software’s Yasuhiro Kitao: “We have our existing corpse run system carried over from previous games, but we didn’t want that to be a frustrating or stressful aspect for the player to have to run all the way across the map to collect their experience points. So one thing we did was, in an area with a high level of challenge, we’ve placed these retry points — that’s still a tentative name — and if the player finds that, they’ll have the option when they die of respawning from the retry point or the last checkpoint.”
Kitao continues: “Also, by opening the map, the player can fast travel to any previously visited ‘site of lost grace,’ as long as they’re not within a dungeon currently. It just alleviates some of that stress, and having this burden in the back of your mind of having to travel all the way back to where you’ve previously been. It streamlines that a little bit.
@nessisonett I’m not speaking for @lolwhatno’s brother but from my perspective there is legitimately less satisfaction derived from completing easy tasks as opposed to overcoming a challenge. I get that you’re an advocate for easy-modes as an aid to accessibility (& I think everyone can appreciate that)… but let’s not ignore the factors on both sides of the debate.
@colonelkilgore It depends what you’re looking for in a game. My mum plays games for the story and to unwind after work. Therefore she prefers games that have QOL options like checkpoints, auto aim, easy difficulty etc. Not everyone actually wants a challenge or enjoys them.
@Jimmer-jammer totally, I’ve obviously joked about ‘being out’ etc but anything coming from the mind of Miyazaki is my most-wanted art/entertainment out there (in any medium).
@lolwhatno all people are undoubtedly different, one of my mates sets every game he plays to the easiest setting. He also fast travels everywhere in games… not a problem, I use it myself sometimes but I vividly remember watching him playing the original Red Dead Redemption and watching him rock up to missions in a stage-coach and think that he is definitely missing something there.
To each their own… but in echo of @Jimmer-jammer’s guitar analogy, I personally find the most satisfaction from succeeding after initially struggling. There is much data about ‘flow state’ and how to achieve it. Essentially, to enter ‘flow’ a player (or whomever depending on what field of expertise you are attempting to ‘flow’ in) has to be engaged in a challenge to which his/her skills are attuned. I can’t help but feel (from my point of view) that any ‘flow’ state is diminished if less skill is required.
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