Topic: Elden Ring Hype Thread

@JohnnyShoulder I doubt the dungeons will be as big as the entirety of previous Soulsborne games, so, in that respect, it'll still be an improvement. I didn't necessarily mind the lack of maps so much in the smaller levels I played in Nioh, for example.

We'll see how it goes. I'll be paying very close attention to early footage of the game.

This is Elden Ring's hub location, a place to escape the dangers of the Lands Between, and meet with familiar NPC's

@lolwhatno Of course people learn to adapt, eventually, to the lack of maps. Some faster than others. But that's not a good excuse for not having one, since it's a basic video game standard by this point, and dramatically improves the experience of playing games with exploration. People shouldn't have to memorize complex maps by heart in order not to get constantly lost in your game. That's just poor game design.

If I poured endless hours of my life into going through a Souls game, would I eventually internalize the structure of the map? Probably. That'd happen in literally any game or environment. If Metroid Prime didn't have a map, I might have, eventually, after multiple playthroughs, built a fairly good internal map of the game's environments. But that's unreasonable, and the game doesn't expect you to do that.

That's not to say that I'm opposed to ever getting lost in games. Like I said, games like Hollow Knight do a good job of balancing mystery and convenience by forcing you to explore an area before you can find the mapmaker and gain a reference for where you are. That's fine.

Hell, if Souls games were composed of singular areas that you explore, I wouldn't mind the lack of maps too much.

But huge, complex labyrinths with backtracking, shortcuts, etc. across multiple unique areas? Something like that needs a map of some sort.

@Ralizah I’ve never played a Souls game without some sort of guide or map. I’m not a big fan of being that lost. I wouldn’t say it’s an unreasonable request.

@JechtUltima Yeah me too, just like the difficult enemies, the feeling of elation of getting past these tricky situations is unrivalled in gaming.

A game shouldn’t be forced to compromise on its fundamental principles in the hope of a bigger audience when thousands of games out there already do.

Saying that I have no problem with a map being in Elden Ring, especially if the world is more open. And it sounds the dungeons will be there for those that like to get lost lol.

@lolwhatno Ultimately, this is why I think it's pretty much always better to have options in games. All you'd need is an options menu slider that enables or disables access to an in-game map. People who like being lost or having to memorize the layouts of interconnected, labyrinthine environments can disable it, while people who get irritated without having access to basic features like that will be able to properly enjoy the game.

To be perfectly honest, though, I've never, in my life, heard someone complain about being able to reference where they are on a map in a game. Most of the scariest games ever made have map systems to reference, and it didn't lessen the feeling of dread in those games.

It kinda reminds me of how certain older Monster Hunter fans pretty incessantly argued that the QoL improvements in Monster Hunter World would ruin the series because clunkier mechanics somehow made the series more immersive. I think that and the reactionary opposition from Souls fans to anything that would improve accessibility for non-hardcore fans of the games comes from the same psychological place, personally.

Well, anyway, thanks for the civil discussion. Even if we disagree, it's always good to hear the viewpoints of others.

@Ralizah @lolwhatno yeah as someone who absolutely adores these souls-likes (FromSoft ones in particular), the ‘mental-mapping’ of these games is one of the under appreciated aspects that occur during your play. For me at least, it adds to the initial trepidation that comes with a ‘journey/odyssey into the unknown’ aspect… and then the ‘mental-mapping’ is one facet (as well as defeating mobs and bosses etc) that culminates in ‘conquering’ the once mysterious and intimidating location. This would be lost if maps were provided.

@lolwhatno Done. And no offence taken.

@colonelkilgore Well said. I see the people that are vocal about stuff like this are not fans of the game anyway. Just wish people would respect the developers vision a bit more. Miyazaki has explained countless times he is very particular when making a game and these kind of decisions are done intentional and for a very specific reason, and not an oversight or something. Its fine not to like it as it is not for everyone but another thing to keep asking for them to change the game to appeal to the masses. It is a current trend which does my head in.

Other games do it differently and that is fine. But not all games are made the same, if they were this hobby of ours would quickly become stale.

@JohnnyShoulder @colonelkilgore @JechtUltima @lolwhatno agree with you all. Having no map is what adds to it being a unique experience. Getting lost, confused, but eventually finding your way is a great feeling. I'm glad FromSoft don't budge on their vision, it's a unique game and if they add a map I want it to be for their design choices for the game.

It’s a bit much insinuating that people who would be perfectly fine with adding a map option ‘aren’t real fans’ or something. I love the Souls games, I’ve played them all multiple times. I just don’t see the harm in adding options for people that want to use them. If you don’t want it…. just don’t use it.

@JechtUltima I don't think his comment was aimed at you, friend.

@JohnnyShoulder Alternatively, it's fine to disagree with the way games are designed and propose ways in which they could be improved. Particularly when those improvements don't entail actually changing the core design of the games for established fans. "Respect[ing] the developer's vision" shouldn't have to entail absolute agreement with every choice they make when designing a game. These are commercial products, not holy texts.

EDIT: The ultimate irony to this discussion is that it was started when the developer did, in fact, make the change (adding a map system) that was being discussed in the first place.

@Ralizah @JohnnyShoulder having just read the article it appears as if the Elden Ring map situation ‘could’ be a happy-medium between both camps. It sounds like as you explore you find map fragments in the nooks-and-crannies of the labyrinthine ‘dungeons’ and they eventually combine to produce a complete map. It states that you don’t get full visibility right off the bat.

I get the impression that the ‘open-field’ section will probably be mapped right away and the then the castles, cave-systems, swamps etc. (‘dungeons’) will require exploration to build the map. As ever, I trust in Miyazaki above all other game designers/directors, so as far as the content of the article I’m open to it.

@colonelkilgore

That does sound like a good compromise that balances mystery and user-friendliness.

I also really like the idea of being able to add custom waypoints on the overworld map.

Maybe they'll offer an option for people who don't want access to maps.

@Ralizah @nessisonett Dunno, think I'm a bit fed up with some people just assuming adding things to the games (such as a map, easy mode etc) will make them better, when the majority of people that already enjoy the games aren't calling for those changes.

Sorry if I insulted anyone or anything, that wasn't my intention and was more of a general comment.

@JohnnyShoulder

Because adding those features into their games WOULD improve the games for many people. Sometimes dramatically. It's not like in-game maps are some new-fangled, untested innovation. They're standard in pretty much every game featuring exploration going back generations, and even in the old ones that couldn't include them due to tech limitations, physical maps were often included with the games, or players were expected to create their own maps. Difficulty settings (which, for the record, I don't care about either way; the difficulty of these games is fine for me), likewise, are pretty standard in a lot of video games. It's not difficult to scale damage multipliers up or down, if nothing else.

If they wouldn't improve the games for you, then that's fine: not every option or change in every game is going to appeal to everybody. As a hardcore Soulsborne fan, they, frankly, don't need to really do anything else to get you on board. And, like I said, if those changes were made to be optional, then fans who prefer the old style lose nothing in the process.

As it stands, From Software IS making some changes, like adding map support, to appeal to a wider variety of gamers, so it's a moot point, really.

I don't recall anyone suggesting From Software should go back to older games and patch maps into them. For better or for worse (worse, in my opinion), those games were designed without maps. Although I'd argue fans struggling for years to patch a map system into Dark Souls somewhat undermines your assertion that fans don't want maps in these games.

@Ralizah I edited my post and removed the bit about the modders taking 7 years to add a map, as it was actually a whole new section of the world, and not just a map overlay or in the corner. My bad. 😂

Just because it works for other games, doesn't immediately mean it will work for all games. I've got the Design Works art books for the first two Dark Souls games, with quite an extensive interview with some of the developers. In this, the director of the first game Hidetaka Miyazaki does mention he is very particular with certain elements of the game, this does include the challenge of the game and there being no map in the game etc. This all adds to the feeling and atmosphere of the game, which is intentional by the developers. I think this why some fans get annoyed when people say 'just add an easy mode, just add a map, it makes no difference'.

I'm genuinely not trying to be elitist or a knob or anything like that over this, but if people still don't understand why some fans see it as a problem, I'm not sure what else myself or others can really say.

Like I said before I have no problem with a map being in Elden Ring. I've not even played the game so can't comment on how that will affect the game. As far as I know, it was always planned to have a map for the overworld with it being more open than the previous games.

I found this to be a good breakdown of what was recently revealed from the various sources that saw the gameplay footage.

Some shakeups that will nudge us along as we chart a course across the Lands Between:

• The bonfire-equivalent “grace” checkpoints can point you toward your next main objective with a guiding light trail (as seen in a prior screenshot with the pot lads).
  Aside from restoring health with an Estus Flask equivalent, you can regain a bit of your health by “defeating mobs of enemies out in the world” — this was done so players can “stay exploring” for longer. “You’ll be coming across grace checkpoints a little bit less often [than bonfires],” according to VaatiVidya.
• Sprinting doesn’t use up stamina when you’re not in combat.
• You may encounter a “field” boss, like a dragon, that can be fought “freely” in the open world. There are hand-crafted dungeons with beefy bosses, too.
• Elden Ring has a “hand-drawn”-style map (with player-set markers that appear as pillars of light in the world), and your hero’s location is shown in real-time. I've seen this been compared in style to the one found in Octopath Traveller.
• You can fill in chunks of the map with scattered “map fragments.”
• There’s also more verticality, in general, which is great to hear post-Sekiro.
• While you’re out traversing the Lands Between on your Spirit Steed you will eventually run into Dungeons and Legacy Dungeons. Dungeons are smallish enclosed areas that are full of traps, monsters, and a Boss that reward the player with equipment, Skills, or other rewards. Legacy Dungeons are much larger and are sort of their own sub-area inside the Lands Between. They are called Legacy Dungeons because they are about the size and style of what one area from a Souls game would be, allowing for a sort of pseudo self-contained theme and experience.
• Illusory walls are back. We’re going to hug all the walls, aren’t we?
• According to From Software’s Yasuhiro Kitao: “We have our existing corpse run system carried over from previous games, but we didn’t want that to be a frustrating or stressful aspect for the player to have to run all the way across the map to collect their experience points. So one thing we did was, in an area with a high level of challenge, we’ve placed these retry points — that’s still a tentative name — and if the player finds that, they’ll have the option when they die of respawning from the retry point or the last checkpoint.”
• Kitao continues: “Also, by opening the map, the player can fast travel to any previously visited ‘site of lost grace,’ as long as they’re not within a dungeon currently. It just alleviates some of that stress, and having this burden in the back of your mind of having to travel all the way back to where you’ve previously been. It streamlines that a little bit.

@lolwhatno Oh my you are sensitive to spoilers ain't ya! Can't you squint a bit so that it appears a bit blurry?

EDIT: Can't seem to get the spoiler tags to work. If anyone else finds it too spoilery, I can just post a link up to the site I got it from.

Checkpoints in high-risk areas, huh? They really are trying to make this an accessible game.

@Ralizah yeah, that's me out... bloody diet-From Soft game 🤬!