@colonelkilgore Glad to hear you enjoyed it! Like most things gaming related, the ones who didn’t have similar feelings as you tend to be in the very vocal minority.
There are just so many decisions Naughty Dog went with regards to the story that you just don’t expect a games developer to do and no one comes out as a winner in the end.
The second run for collectibles is pretty easy especially for Ellie if you use the infinite ammo modifier now you have the silenced automatic rifle!
I’m just glad that in the second half of the game I didn’t need to fight the Rat King again!
@Thrillho ahh that’s cool, I didn’t use any of the modifiers… I did have a quick squint prior to my ng+ run (as I think you mentioned something about them previously) but I couldn’t find them… and I just wanted to plough on etc.
I actually didn’t mind that fight tbh… just went all-out flamethrower and Molotov on him and he fell ‘relatively’ quickly. Good thing I didn’t have to fight him on the second go though as I used all my flamethrower ammo in Abby’s opening section though.
@Jimmer-jammer yeah no problem just start the spoiler with then insert your spoilerific take… before ending with. You’ll have to press quote on my post to see the actual commands though 😉
@Jimmer-jammer Ok, so thing is - he was not a boy who rebelled against the ways of his people. He was actually very much into the ways of his people and he wanted to have a role in their society that was in line with his identity but they wouldn’t let him. Instead he would be executed for being the way he was. His sister was the only one supporting him, which is why they ran away together. There’s a scene where Abby and Lev are noticed while trying to sneak through Seraphite territory and the Seraphites refer to him as Lily. Yara says they’re hunting Lev because he shaved his head but the reason he shaved his head was because that’s what the men in their society do and girls are not allowed to.
I’m not saying the story couldn’t be more fleshed out but it’s very different to what you described IMO
@Jimmer-jammer I can definitely understand your take on all three of the points you raised… and for you, from the balanced and informed way you have explained your read I would never say your wrong. As when you’re (we’re) digging around in such deep and dark emotions, any particular person’s interpretation is always going to be at least somewhat subjective… I know my take is.
I’ll briefly touch on each of the points you raised just to explain my take but I won’t go in too deep as I don’t want it to come over like I’m trying to convince you that I am right and you’re wrong, just that my personality and my past has informed this particular take. So ultimately… and this could well seem flat-out insane to many… but I actually think Joel, Ellie and Abby are all ‘good’ people. Obviously, they have all done some terrible things… but I honestly think we are all capable of committing terrible acts if our personal perception adjudicates them as ‘just’ in the greater scheme of things. I’m not saying any of their actions are actually ‘just’… only that when seeing the events through their eyes, taking into account the events that have sculpted their personalities, they seemed ‘just’ in the heat of the prolonged-moment. Don’t get me wrong for one second though, underneath the veil of the various emotion-fuelled perceptions these are terrible acts.
This brings me to Ellie running into Owen and Mel… and how that panned-out. I genuinely read it as these psychological ‘veils-of-perception-we-wear’ when allowing our baser-instincts to dictate our actions are (at least in the case of ‘good’ people) quite fragile. And Owen disclosing the fact that Mel was pregnant (which obviously Ellie instantly connected to Dina) caused this fragile-veil of her perception to momentarily slip. In doing so, the past three days of allowing her id to run rampant crashes down around her.
I do agree with you on Lev’s story somewhat though. first off, I’m glad Naughty Dog ‘went there’… and it certainly wasn’t handled horribly but yes, I do think it was underdeveloped. It’s a tough one as I honestly don’t think the game should be any longer… and I think that only more time and context would provide more solidity to how his events played out. I get the impression that Druckman et al placed a far greater importance on what they ultimately feel about religious-fundamentalism than what they feel about trans-gender metamorphosis. Still, even though I do agree with you here, I’m still really glad they included it… and I genuinely loved Lev, he had some beautiful takes on ‘the old world’.
As to the ending, so as I mentioned in a previous post I was so glad Ellie ‘saw sense’ and didn’t actually kill Abby. This is definitely rooted in my personal take that Ellie (as well as Joel and Abby) is fundamentally a ‘good’ person. I was actually talking to my screen as the final events played out, pleading with Ellie (even though it was I controlling her) not to do it! As I pointed out in my previous post, Abby had actually let Ellie go on two occasions during the game (the first time through coaxing from her friends in fairness), so Ellie now ‘repaying-the-favour’ just lends balance to the overall narrative. I get that to some, it must seem a total waste of everyone’s time for her to leave the farm and then not actually carry through with her objective but… for me her journey wasn’t a wasted one. I feel that it took that second journey-into-the-heart-of-darkness for her to finally relinquish the ‘weight’ she has carried since Joel was killed. She was struggling with the memories and the guilt etc. prior to her second odyssey (see the nightmare in the barn) but I see it that she will no longer struggle with that (she may well struggle with other things in future but not that) as she had allowed herself to forgive through empathy. It’s why the scene flashes back to her last interaction with Joel, where she finally allowed herself to start forgiving him too… though she was never able to see that ‘journey’ through as Abby killed Joel the next day.
Just my two-cents but they worked for me… well the first and last anyway. I’m inclined to see it like you on Lev’s story.
@Jimmer-jammer so having just read your reply to @Voltan, I think maybe your getting caught up on how the Seraphites react to Lev’s situation. As you have identified, Abby reacts (or doesn’t react at all) how any ‘modern’ and or ‘decent’ person would react. In a narrative, it’s more than fine… even informative to show negative sides of society. It doesn’t mean the overall product ‘agrees’ with the horrible take some of its characters have. If anything, it serves to underline and highlight just what a bad take it is.
@colonelkilgore I was wondering if you noticed one of my favourite little details in the game. In the part when Abby and Lev are climbing down the ruined building (after climbing up the construction site and falling off the crane), if you stand at the edge of a broken floor and look down, after a couple seconds the cameras FOV changes to make the drop look bigger than it actually is, to reflect the fact that Abby is uncomfortable with heights.
I thought it was little touches like this that greatly improved immersion in the game.
Also the fact that you can open safes without knowing the combination, if you just listen carefully enough
@Voltan wow I didn’t actually notice that… I love that though and wish I had noticed it. I know I sound like a broken-record when I say this… but these linear cinematic-narrative led games (Naughty Dog games basically) are generally so far down the list of types of games that I want to play but somehow Naught Dog just continue to massively impress me. I studied film-making and screen-writing at Uni and my lecturers would ‘love’ Naughty Dog and their creative ‘use’ of the medium… and they weren’t easy to please tbh.
@Voltan it’s actually real subtle… like most of the things they do with dialogue. The reason I love Joel so much is that he can say so much with so few words. Same with that visual effect.
@Jimmer-jammer that is a really really good juxtaposition. Can’t believe it never occurred to me but yeah… one of many beautiful threads weaved together for the overall tapestry. And no, your posts have not come across as lazy at all… as ever, your words have been thoughtful and precise. As has @Voltan’s for that matter.
I’ve been looking forward to this chat since before I even played 2… from back when I was playing the original early last month… and it’s been as insightful, thought-provoking and enjoyable as I thought it would be.
PS I love that bit on the first game being about Love and the second about Hate… and then obviously the irony that for both emotions, divided by only the narrowest of margins, ultimately the objective of both games were not carried out. Namely, ensuring the production of a cure and achieving revenge.
@colonelkilgore thanks for posting your thoughts, only just had chance to read them. Glad you loved it so much. You're right, the narrative is amazing and it's a phenomenal experience. They managed to build on the first in every way.
Don't be ashamed about the crying. Whilst I didn't cry, I certainly felt some deep emotions playing. That just shows how good the writing is.
I think killing Abby would have been the “obvious” thing to have done. But I think not doing it works better as it gives that moment of insight for Ellie where she realises that she’s ruined her own existence in the name of revenge and is just continuing the cycle of killing and revenge. Killing her or not, she is still going to end up alone again but maybe she can finally make one “good” decision and move on with her life.
Maybe an obvious and boring take but that’s why it worked for me and why her return to the farm was made more powerful.
@Keith_Zissou no problem at all buddy, I’m having a bit of a busy spell myself tbh.
Yeah I’m with you on pretty much all of that to be fair. The Seraphites are a fascinating new wrinkle in The Last of Us world. I would definitely like to learn more about them (maybe Factions 2 could even go some way towards doing that) but as you also allude to, I do feel the game itself was long enough. So, it would be difficult to have done so in TLoU2. What I would add though is I feel that the Seraphites and the Wolves (hell even the Fireflies themselves) were given more context, personality and… well, just plain old ‘air-time’ than the Fireflies got in the original, so there is that I guess.
And I do feel a bit bad for low-balling the gameplay a little… as you mentioned it really does play well, a helluva lot better than the original. It’s just so in-line with most other third person games these days, while pretty much everything else is so far beyond the pack it sticks out. I also definitely found myself ‘enjoying’ the gameplay, the further I got into the game. That might be down to some of the later chapters being more to my taste maybe… or maybe it was just rocking a full arsenal? Either way, it really does play well, and that only bodes well for Factions 2 also. I normally don’t play online multiplayer unless it’s an adhoc towards a Platinum… but I might well end up putting in some time on that when it eventually releases.
@Keith_Zissou I know exactly what you mean about enjoying a game more once 'locking' into the mechanics. We all have our own terms for it... I tend to refer to it by saying 'once I've sync'd with the game'. My mate says 'once the game has embedded'. Either way though you're right, and it's why I'll give a game a lot of leeway in the initial period, as I know it can take a while.
Loving MGS2, think its going to overtake 3 as my second favourite at this rate. I think I'm probably gonna end up sick of it by the time I've either Plat'd it or given up though... man is there a lot to do for that shiney!
@Keith_Zissou yeah the dog tags, the playthroughs and the VR's etc. I'm gonna give it the obligatory 'college-try' but it does seem a lot. Still, if I manage it, it'll be up there with the most satisfying plats I guess.
Something moved me to finally boot up TLoU2 today. I’ve been try to think of a good companion game with Mass Effect and nothing seemed to gel in my mind so I just went to the top of my list of PS essentials that I own but haven’t played yet.
I’m only in the introductory areas, but am very impressed so far. I knew the game was well crafted from what I’d read as well as from what I know of Naughty Dog and their attention to detail. But I am so blown away by the accessibility and customization options. Wow, it’s on another level.
And already the voice acting and storytelling is in full shine, even though I’ve barely started to meet the new characters. I’m keeping an open mind, as I know there has been a strong camp of naysayers as well as fans, so I’m looking forward to forming my own opinion. So far so good though!
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
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Topic: The Last Of Us Part II - OT (No Spoilers)
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