Topic: The Movie Thread

Not to break into the Avengers excitement but I had another movie to comment on.
...Now, I am hoping to see End Game next week. I got busy and didn’t buy tickets in advance and all theaters were sold out for opening weekend when I looked yesterday after work.
Maybe I’ll watch Infinity War tonight to get me hyped up.

Anyways —
What I did watch instead last night was the much maligned Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Warning ⚠️— I’m going to spoil the movie in this post and not use spoiler tags, because, well I feel like if you haven’t seen it or had it spoiled by now, you don’t care anyways.
I have been critical of the movie in the past, but I know a few have come to its defense here on the forums, notably Indy aficionado @RogerRoger I believe. I had been meaning to give it another chance because I had only seen it once several years ago when I don’t know if I really paid attention all that well.

In short, the movie is actually much better than I remember. In fact 2/3 of it is about as entertaining as most any popcorn flick. There is a heavy amount of campiness and a little bit of an antiquated way of storytelling (plot points jump quickly, fights are toned down yet exaggerated affairs where for example people stand still until they’re hit and fly across the room in the old style of John Wayne movies and spaghetti western bar fights, the hero seems omniscient and you never really feel he’s in mortal danger, the villains are stereotyped and one-faceted, etc, etc, etc.), but it works. You have to go in expecting to watch an old-fashioned ‘suspend all disbelief’ type of adventure film. When I approached it this way, it made it much more fun to watch. Harrison Ford and Karen Allen really do have great chemistry. And I like Le Beouf and Cate Blanchett, although this isn’t necessarily their best work, they serve acceptably in their supporting roles.

Nevertheless, I still had issue with the last act. The Mayan ruins, the puzzles, the bad guys chasing them down — all that was fine. It’s just the “inter-dimensional beings” which made it fall flat for me. Even as cheesy as the crystal skull McGuffin item looks as they carry around that ridiculous thing the whole movie, I could still relish in the narrative around it and the wacky adventures, but once the crystal skeletons and then the Area 51 looking humanoid creature and flying saucer show up, it was so far out of place that no measure of ‘1980’s campy / homage to the old adventure serials / suspend your disbelief for some innocent fun’ could help me swallow that part. I grimaced a little and tried to focus on the interesting special effects though and still enjoyed the movie, but I would have liked a climax that was less .... I don’t know, corny? Something more like the end of Raiders could have easily worked there. But I suppose I respect Spielberg for trying something new. Of the four movies, I’d still put it in last place on the rankings, but after watching it again with the correct attitude, I would not deem it ‘pointless’ (to use Noisy’s categorization vernacular)

It does make me wonder how they are going to approach Indy 5. Surely there is going to be an attempt at trying to erase this movie’s hiccups and get back to the roots as far as story goes. I am a little disappointed that La Beouf is not involved, nor Allen. But I don’t think the public was as enthralled with Indy having a ‘greaser’ son as I was. We’ll see.

Welp, saw Endgame opening night. Cried my eyes out. But it was pretty good.

@Th3solution I agree with you. Most of that movie is one of the better Jones movies. But the aliens thing was bologna.

@Th3solution Thanks for tagging me in this. I'm really, really glad you enjoyed the film more than you thought you would. I've been meaning to re-watch the Indy quadrilogy since Christmas and things just keep getting in the way but rest assured, when I do, I'll be coming back here to slap a giant "I agree with @Th3solution (mostly)!" sticker down.

There was a worrying trend in cinema right around the time Crystal Skull came out (2008) whereby films got attacked and criticised for being fun. The original audience had grown up and wanted Indy to be a dark, grizzled badass so when they got a grizzled badass (two out of three) who occasionally smiled and acknowledged the absurdity of the situations he stumbled into, it was like some kind of crime. I loved Cate Blanchett's highly-stylised comic book performance, thought Mutt Williams was a great character played really well by Shia TheBeef, and revelled in the outstanding supporting cast (John Hurt! Ray Winstone! Jim Broadbent!). You're also right to highlight the chemistry between Harrison Ford and Karen Allen; they never miss a beat, they're a joy to watch.

At least, I think they are. I haven't watched the film in a good five or six years. Your excellent write-up has made me determined to revisit it sooner, thank you!

@RogerRoger Sure thing. I would be interested to see if you like it even more when you rewatch it.
And I think you’re absolutely right about the trend of dark and grim settings and heroes at the time. I hadn’t realized that. The film actually came out a week apart from The Dark Knight in July 2008, which fact I hadn’t realized (until I just now googled it) but now it makes sense. The two movies couldn’t be further from each other with Christopher Nolan’s dark and brooding world, protagonist who never smiles and appears to be in constant anguish, Leger’s Joker who although has a little bit of comic relief is also a frightening psychopath the stuff of nightmares. (“Wanna see this pencil disappear”) And I love Nolan’s Batman Trilogy, especially The Dark Knight, but it’s very different from Indiana Jones’s style, as you stated.
Perhaps the pendulum has swung back a little bit with the success of the MCU and the public is more ripe for action adventure films with a little more whimsy and light-heartedness. Maybe that’s why I enjoyed IJ4 this time around but didn’t before. I don’t know.
And although I won’t get to it right away because I have to procure some copies, I think I will also re-try the Star Wars prequels with a fresh set of eyes, also in light of your recommendations. Maybe I haven’t watched those with quite the open mind I needed to. 😋

@Th3solution There are definite trends that ebb and flow with each passing generation. I was grinning from ear to ear when I watched the 20th Anniversary panel for The Phantom Menace at the recent Star Wars Celebration convention (the only bit I tuned in for) and the crowd went absolutely nuts for Ahmed Best. Those fans were kids when the prequels came out, just as the kids of the Original Trilogy era were the thirty-somethings rallying against the prequels for being fun, bizarre rollercoasters (and now I'm a thirty-something rallying against the Disney films). I reckon your average punter is way, way more informed by nostalgia than actual critical thought, so these things are bound to shift with time.

I was in my third year of university when both Crystal Skull and The Dark Knight came out. My flatmates argued constantly with me because I said I preferred the fun escapism of Indy to the dark shock value of Batman. It's why I'll never call anybody's opinion of an artistic product "wrong".

So yeah, if you do re-watch the prequels and still hate them, we can still be friends.

@RogerRoger Lol, well I have enjoyed the prequels in their own right. It’s just that I preferred the latter episodes. And I think I’ve been tainted by the public outcry against episodes 1-3. It’s hard not to be influenced by a loud vocal mob of rabid fans 😛

@Th3solution Stand next to me. When it comes to the prequels, I shout louder than anybody.

So... Endgame. Just got back from it.

...it was alright. Definitely better than Infinity War. This one actually had a rather charming plot, and some actually permanent consequences, and a surprising amount of levity. Although the way they handle Hawkeye's coping mechanism of wanton contract murder-- by introducing it and then casually brushing it aside-- will never not be hysterically bad. Great cinema this is not.

Aside from The Winter Soldier, though, which I remember being superb the whole way through, why do all the Russo Brothers Marvel films turn into a chaotic mess where hordes of CGI things run at each-other by the end? It just looks silly and cartoonish, like something out of a video game. I'll give them a pass here, though, both because they built up to the climax pretty well, and because it makes sense in the context of this being a grand finale to the Infinity Arc as a whole.

@Th3solution Kingdom of the Crystal Skull was always a fine movie. Not quite the classic that Raiders of the Lost Ark is, but I like it more than some of the other sequels. People look fondly on the past and are often overly-critical of follow-ups to beloved classic franchises. Not that the Shia Le Beouf casting helped them out at all.

@Ralizah Was it you that said, (not exact words) "Mark my words, Endgame is gonna be bad?"lol

why do all the Russo Brothers Marvel films turn into a chaotic mess where hordes of CGI things run at each-other by the end

It just looks silly and cartoonish, like something out of a video game

Don't think both Winter Soldier and Civil War had that.

It's a comic book movie with characters doing amazing and spectacular things. Can't do it without the use of CGI. And to be fair the The Lord of the Rings and maybe even (I remember correctly) a few of the Star Wars movies had this too.

@WanderingBullet Have no memory of posting that, and I don't see why I would, so I'm going to say: "nope; wasn't me."

Anyway, Civil War didn't have the bunches of CGI things, but it definitely has that dynamic of a chaotic battle where the superheroes are barreling at each-other from opposite directions. It's very weird.

As I said, Winter Soldier was an exception. It was pretty great. Probably a top three MCU film for me.

You're not incorrect that other special effects extravaganzas do this as well, but you can showcase large, CGI heavy battles without it literally being one group of things running at another group of things. It's all about the framing. Star Wars battles tend to make more dramatic sense, and, in the best films, the combat sequences have a logic and flow to them that makes them exciting to watch. The battles in these Avengers movies are more like something out of a Michael Bay Transformers film, where it's visually chaotic and noisy and there's no real sense of flow to the battle at large. You might remember individual sequences, such as Captain America attacking Thanos with Thor's hammer, but, beyond that, it's mind-numbing chaos.

To be fair, they did this same thing with Aqua-Man, and it was just as bad there. Aqua-Man wasn't really a coherent artistic experience, though. It was more like the filmmakers aped conventions from big modern blockbusters. It's like they watched Star Wars and Avengers films and just said: "Yes, we want all of that." So you get stupid scenes like the underwater chase with the manta ray machines, which was, for all intents and purposes, a sequence copied almost wholesale from a Star Wars film.

Another amazing achievement is how Marvel managed make all of of these characters popular, most of them (except for Capt. and Spidey) were essentially B-tier comics book heroes and villains prior to the MCU movies. I think in they've been quite spot on in terms of casting.

DC had three iconic characters in Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and they messed it up in trying to make a team movie. I'm still hoping one day we'll get a great Justice League movie since it's my favourite superhero team.

@Ralizah My bad. I remembered it wrongly. You actually said:

This film won't even have the decency to accept the consequences of its events, marks my words.

DC can't compete with Disney's resources and, when they try to ape the MCU formula, it just comes off as uninspired. I think films like Joker are the way for DC to go: allow different filmmakers to take wildly different stabs at your classic properties.

Besides, we all know DC's real strength lies in their animated films.

@WanderingBullet Ah, now that definitely sounds like something I said.

And... well, it was pretty much stating the obvious. Everyone that was 'snapped' magically came back to life by means of time travel antics. Which is why the "weighty" ending of Infinity War did nothing for me. It was never going to stick. As such, the 'snap' was little more than a cheap gimmick in the context of the wider storyline.

I also found my old list and altered a couple of the old scores a bit.

Avengers: Endgame - 10 (Not a perfect 10 since it had some plot holes in regards of the time travel but a great effort by the creators in creating a satisfying ending to the Infinity Saga).
Thor: Ragnarok - 9.5
Avengers: Infinity War - 9
Captain America: Winter Soldier - 9
Guardians of the Galaxy - 9
Ant-man - 8.5
Avengers - 8.5
Iron Man - 8.5
Spider-man: Homecoming - 8.5
Doctor Strange - 8
Captain America: Civil War - 7.5
Captain Marvel - 7
Ant-man and the Wasp - 7
Avengers: Age of Ultron - 7
Black Panther - 7
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.2 - 7
Iron Man 3 - 7
Thor - 6
Captain America: The First Avenger - 6
Thor: The Dark World - 4
Iron Man 2 - 3.5
The Incredible Hulk - 3.5

@Ralizah

Which is why the "weighty" ending of Infinity War did nothing for me. It was never going to stick. As such, the 'snap' was little more than a cheap gimmick in the context of the wider storyline.

This sort thing has been happening in comics for as long as I can remember. No one ever stays dead.lol To be fair, they were some consequences in Endgame and because of that it didn't felt gimmicky or cheap to me.

@Ralizah Yeah, Disney has the Marvel movies and Star Wars to thank for that. The former alone has already made close to $20 billion in the last 10-11 years for them. Endgame has already earned $1.2 billion in it's opening weekend.

@WanderingBullet @WanderingBullet Sure. In Endgame. It indirectly led to some consequences. But the 'snap' itself was a meaningless event outside of its role as a motivating plot device in IW's sequel. Which is a big reason why I think IW itself is just deeply flawed. Not to mention how the entire film is a transparent mcguffin hunt. Or how multiple characters have to act like idiots for the ending to pan out the way it did.

I'd say, for me, the top five films would be:
(best to worst)
Iron Man
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Black Panther
Iron Man 3 (I actually disliked this one a bit upon first viewing it, but it gets better every time I rewatch it)

Bottom five:
(worst to best)
Thor: The Dark World (I'm unsure if I've ever actually been able to fully pay attention to this movie; it's SO boring)
Captain America: The First Avenger [EDIT: replaced Guardians of the Galaxy 2 with this; I just remembered much much I disliked it)
The Incredible Hulk
Thor: Ragnarok
The Avengers

I accept that these are controversial placements.

Anyway, it's pretty incredible how thoroughly Disney has amassed a veritable monopoly on big Western pop culture properties over the years, and how this has led to them practically taking over Hollywood and the box office. It's rather unnerving, actually. No good comes from so much power being amassed in such an ultimately small number of hands.

Ghost in the Shell 2017 (Amazon Prime Video) - The live action adaptation, and it was actually pretty decent. Questionable casting choice aside (and of which I personally ultimately didn't mind, as it was explained in the context of this version's story) it didn't do anything wrong, as in it checked all the boxes correctly in terms of world, characters, design, and even the basic themes that permeate the series (with a proper budget to boot), but it's big fault is that it just felt very "diet GitS", in an effort to make it a more easily consumable popcorn flick (I had to rewatch the original film multiple times to get it & I STILL don't really understand Stand Alone Complex, but I was able to piece together the basic plotline of this film quite early on), and partially probably an effort to appease the China censors (toned down the general "adult" content of the series, in terms of blood & sexualization). It's not bad though, and still a decent watch if you're into the series just to see the characters translated into live-action, or just want to watch a decent sci-fi flick.

Widows. Expertly well made film with some good performances from a great cast. Sagged a bit in the middle and was a bit slow for me, and the ending was a bit neat and tidy for my liking. Still overall an enjoyable watch.