Naughty Dog studio head Neil Druckmann and 28 Days Later writer Alex Garland have sat down to have a chat as part of Sony's new Creator to Creator series. The almost hour-long interview of each other touches on both their careers so far, storytelling, and the overall creative process. An excellent insight into two industry leads, but Neil Druckmann also talks of Naughty Dog's next PS5 project, Intergalactic: The Heretic Prophet.
The game takes place 2,000 years in the future, with a timeline that deviates from our own in the late 1980s. Druckmann adds: "We made a game with The Last of Us 2 where we made certain creative decisions that got us a lot of hate. A lot of people love it, but a lot of people hate that game." Garland interjects with "who gives a s**t?", to which Druckmann responds: "Exactly. So the joke is like 'you know what, let's do something that people won't care as much about. Let's make a game about faith and religion."

Naughty Dog spent a significant amount of time during development building out the religion on the planet Sempiria, which hasn't given out any communication or signals for 600 years. Main character Jordan crashlands on the planet whilst hunting a bounty and must learn what's happened there — alone.
Unlike previous Naughty Dog titles like The Last of Us and Uncharted to a degree, where you'd often have a companion by your side, the developer wanted to create a game about "being lonely". Druckmann explains: "So many of the previous games we've done, there's always like an ally with you and you're talking. Our new one should be lost in a place that you're really confused about what happened here, who are the people here, what was their history."
As for when the game might come out, Druckmann says "there's still a ways to go", and even he doesn't know "exactly what this thing is gonna look like at the end". He has a "theory" but things are still evolving and changing during development.
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@Shinnok789 That's the joke, bro
So looking forward to this one!
Very intriguing. I like that mistery and exploration aspect. And I trust that developers.
@Shinnok789 Tongue-in-cheek
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I rather have a last of us 3 to be honest
You could not make this sound more unappealing if you tried......(sigh) Remember when this studio used to make FUN games 😩
Sounds like this game wont be releasing anytime soon. Guess we only get 1 new ND game this gen then, or maybe not even this gen.
Faith? Religion? I’ll pass…
Are some people just not mature enough to handle subject matters like those in a game? I for one look forward to seeing more of this game.
This makes me even more exited for the game’s release.
In Naughty Dog and Neil we trust.
Haters go cry in a corner.
That was a good read, but I wasn’t happy with that last statement of there’s still a good ways to go before it releases.
The last new, true new game they released was in 2020 and with us being in 2025 that statement makes it sound like it’s not gonna come out till 2027 or later.
That sucks.
Faith and religion are immensely interesting topics if done correctly. The danger is that you do so with the intention of pushing your own opinions upon the audience.
I trust that ND will make abother GOTY with this one, still that jordan jordan character is beyond ugly. Im not a fan ob injection an actors likeness into the characters. Everything else looks great
Sounds great, even better if it angers people for no reason.
I’m looking forward to this game, mostly because of the many many whiny people who have already made their minds up about it
Hmmmm, not sure here.
I found TLOU 2 to be too on the nose with its revenge themes and the 'eye for an eye leaves everyone blind' plot. It wasn't clever and in my view became too drawn out and I didn't buy the moment of minor redemption at the end.
If this follows the same sort of pattern, I feel it could end up metaphorically clubbing you over the nose with its message on a topic which is very individual to everyone.
I'm an atheist myself but I have a real human interest in religion and beliefs and why and how people follow them, so always open to a new take - the problem is i haven't heard any new ones in forever.
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yay sounds fun.
@Shinnok789 I'm guessing he's aware of that, and is being humorous or ironic?
Most interesting bit from this is it still seems at least 2 or 3 years a way
Great to hear. Keep making bold, divisive art that means something and evokes a response.
Love it or hate it people can't seem to stop themselves talking about The Last of Us 2, that is all the confirmation they need.
@J2theEzzo by stating the obvious? Okay
The “who gives a *****” statement really ended it for me. I personally gave a ***** and a lot of people did too. In fact if certain decisions hadn’t been made for the Last of Us 2, then Neil Druckmann wouldn’t have said in past interviews that he wasn’t sure how to progress with a 3rd part. If you make a product that gets a huge amount of hatred, then that is a fail in my eyes. Isn’t it better to make something that is universally loved? I think that Intergalactic is going to be a big mess too. Just don’t really trust Neil to make something without causing a stir. The idea should be player choices, but I think he will force feed his own beliefs and we will just need to get on with it. Too risky in this day and age…
Gotta love people already celebrating its demise.
@Bionic-Spencer not if you want to have an impactful story. You can only do that when you push the envelop.
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@naruball time will tell, I guess. Impact is one thing, but hatred is another. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want games to fail, but I certainly don’t have the level of trust in NDs products like I used to.
I'm almost positive I know exactly where this is going when Druckmann talks about Intergalactic being about religion and faith, and I REALLY don't want to hear facile prattling from him about his feelings about the Gaza genocide while playing a sci-fi action game. Especially not after how blunt and shallow the thematic material was in The Last of Us: Part II.
@naruball Totally agree. The trouble with trying to make NARRATIVE (that's what they were talking about) that is "universally loved" as @Bionic-Spencer posited is that by trying to make it for everyone it usually ends up being not for anyone in particular and not universally loved. There are a few safer topics that might be more feasible to do that, but those have usually been played out in other art. Instead you have to ruffle some feathers to explore interesting questions on the bigger questions in life. I'm here for it.
@Shinnok789 It's pretty clear in the video this was the joke, here's the timestamp where they talk about that and religion.
So much potential here! I was holding out hope that this might release sooner than later but sounds like it’s likely not the case. Ah well, should be worth the wait.
I’ll definitely be buying it but so far I’m not excited for it.
@themightyant "Love it or hate it people can't seem to stop themselves talking about The Last of Us 2, that is all the confirmation they need."
Well, second game sold 1/3 of what first game sold. And I would argue that people are talking about first game more today, than about second game and first game is 12 years old.
"Every controversy is good controversy" is not a great concept in gaming where you want from people to spend 70$ on your next game. I personally know that I'm just less inclined to buy future ND game, because TLOU Part 2 was so long and tedious that I completed it just to "make my purchase worth." Which is not a good thing.
And I'm not even talking primarily about story choices (which were dumb also), but mainly about fact that TLOU Part 2 would be better game if it was half of it's length. Gameplay just wasn't interesting enough. First game recognized weakness of it's gameplay systems so devs haven't felt obliged to shove 20 hours of bland gameplay down our throats.
@Oram77 That's an easy answer, no they are not. People are a lot more close minded then they like to think they are.
@themightyant there is a quote from Aristotle that I really love:
"the friend of everyone is the friend of no one".
That goes for other things, like narratives.
As much as I would've preferred ND staying with their more grounded, realistic approach (in contrast to more fantasy and sci-fi) as well as I couldn't care less about anything religion, I'm there for everything Naughty Dog obviously. The top 0,0001% tier in videogames. Will be a rare masterpiece that once again is light years ahead of everyone else, no matter what.
Very likely will be the very first actual great sci-fi game in history.
I've played some games that used faith and religion either fake or based on irl, correctly in the story. Those games are:
And i think the Serapites in TloU Part 2 also quite interesting.
The thing is making games that talk about faith and religion without offending anyone but in the same time still offers an interesting story is not easy. So i hope Neil knows what he's doing with Intergalactic.
This is sounding very interesting and hopefully isn't that long away now. ND never miss and are one of the best developers around so this should be good.
Love how easily Naughty Dog games rile up the haters 😂.
Probably got a brief mention of faith and religion in the audio/text logs discovered when exploring. However, saying now it is all about faith and religion will send the internet into melt down for 2 years. Free promotion and advertisement, well done Neil, well done 👍
Hold up, nobody else is concerned with his words that he still doesn't know where the story will go? I assumed it was already fleshed out, but apparently not. Not sure how to feel about that one.
I see the children are still angry and butthurt over their on screen daddy being killed off. Me i'm dead excited for their new game as ND never miss.
"A lot of people love it, but a lot of people hate that game." Garland interjects with "who gives a s**t?""
I'm past putting individuals on a pedestal but high praise from me for this statement! This is how you judge art vs product. Art doesn't care if you like it, it's doing what it does and saying what it says and you can go elsewhere if you want. It doesn't need your validation to be valid.
Product panders, product needs you to love it because product needs you to buy it for it to be valid. If it doesn't have that, it's nothing.
Obviously as a huge budget game it has to be product still, that's something all media struggles with. But so few games, especially big budget ones, are willing to tow the line this way.
So yeah, you didn't like it? Who gives a s**t!
faith and religion is a superb theme, i really don't understand all the hate or doubts around that.
my main concern is about druckman, i'm worried because he can't detach himself from his political propaganda, and I know that could harm the game.
let's see what happens. Either way, i have full confidence in ND because they know how to handle any kind of craziness that comes from the director's mind.
Looking forward to it. The game will sell millions, and it will be universally acclaimed. All of this despite the naysayers and whiny wingebags. Let NG cook!
I suspect may of those comments are being made in bad faith, under the assumption their comments would get deleted if they stated the real reason they want it to fail.
@Bionic-Spencer "Isn’t it better to make something that is universally loved?"
Are there games on this planet earth that "universally loved" by everyone???
I like how franchises like Warhammer handle religion and faith. When taken to the extreme it can create a really interesting framework. This is a big wait and see for me, with a dash of morbid curiosity. I'd have to see actual reviews first, right now it's just guess work. If it really is a vehicle to share ideology, or to polarize opinion then I most definitely would be skipping it, but right now that seems to be secondhand speculation.
I see games as both entertainment and learning tools but the latter only works when the creator remains neutral and doesn't try to drip-feed their own beliefs to the player. It's hard to verbalize it in English, and it's still early days yet but I've seen what happens when religion and faith get injected into other mediums. I've met a lot of people at Metal shows/festivals who have no faith or religion but are fans of bands like Skillet or FlyLeaf. It's not an impossible balance and it doesn't mean you have to support what's actually being portrayed. Sometimes it's just entertainment for the sake of entertainment.
It's too easy to take a couple of words and speculate, which already seems to be happening, which in-itself is a red flag for potential review bombing. Even when this does release there will be too many factors for people to key into, bald, female, religion etc. It's going to be very hard to distinguish fact from fiction, especially when we already know so little about it.
To be honest I care more about how it plays rather than the predictable obsession with narrative. The ND stealth shooter is rather antiquated now so I want to see how tight the gameplay loop is more than what themes the cut scenes will have.
Faith and religion - things that historically and currently cause conflict, intolerance, persecution and suffering but also resilience, hope, community and healing. I'm not a fan but it always makes for rich storytelling in the grand scheme/folly of human existence. Plus Naughty Dog objectively make great games whether you're a fan or not.
I liked them better when they made games about dark eco, precursor orbs, and fun.
Yawn. I already know the plot and theme: “religion bad, extreme religion really bad.”
A gameplay would be fine.but we will see.word up son
Godot25 wrote:
Did it? How do you know that for sure? All the data we have is at least a couple of years out of date as Sony don't update sales often. (Recent sales data in brackets below)
Additionally TLOU2 hasn't even been on sale for 5 years yet versus 12 years for TLOU1. You would logically expect the first game to have sold a lot more, right?
But more importantly even if it did sell 1/3 as much would that ACTUALLY matter? TLOU1 (20+ million in 6 years) was an unexpected mega-hit selling three times as much as Uncharted 2 (6.5+ million in 6 years) and over twice as much as Uncharted 3 (9.6+ million in 8 years)... were those failures?
Meanwhile TLOU2 sold an impressive 10 million in less than 2 years as of Spring 2022. I realise some disingenuous people want to paint that as some sort of failure to suit their narrative but you have to do a lot of mental gymnastics to try and make that stick. Back in reality 10 million in less than 2 years is more than most games dream of. Plus it will have sold a lot more in the subsequent 3 years, especially with the PS5 remaster, Part 1 and TV show driving sales.
The most recent official sales figure we had was 37 million for whole The Last of Us franchise as of early 2023. 37 million from 2 games, across 5 releases, seems massive to me, and that was 2 years ago.
Keep it up Naughty Dog.
Hoping to see some gameplay for this soon, it sounds promising.
The announcement trailer didn’t exactly the game much justice as a lot of people complained about it and whined about it
@Bionic-Spencer Lets be honest, there isn't anything in the world that's universally loved. Also, TLOU2 wasn't universally hated, it was extremely divisive, which is completely different.
You'd be naive to think that Neil Druckmann and co didn't think a lot of people were going to hate TLOU2, it was definitely intentional(to a degree)
Honestly, they deliver a good game that gets people talking, 10s of millions of people who love it, then Alex garland is right 'Who gives a f**k?' Especially when the feedback from the haters, is anything but constructive. I honestly couldn't disagree with you more. Keep pushing it, get people talking, forget the haters.
I think what they did with TLOU2 was ballsy and we need more people to push the envelope.
I'll be looking forward to this
@Steel76 I'm not religious and some of my favourite movies explore religion and faith.
its a fascinating topic and doesn't require you to go to chuch every sunday or even believe in a God to be interesting
I have played too many JRPGs. When you tell me it will have faith and religion, I am assuming I get to kill god. Do not disappoint me.
All you have to do it look up Druckman at the golden globes to know where this game is headed.
It's honestly ridiculous the reaction this seems to be getting. He has said literally nothing. Do people not realise that plenty of games have religious themes? What are people even hating here? We know nothing.
I'm excited for a lot of the new IPs coming this year. This probably won't make 2025. But if it did. This is a game I'm not terribly excited for so far. The trailer gave me marvel movie vibes, and for my money I'm beyond tired of marvel movies and that style of story telling. Hopefully I'm wrong. When NG is rolling their games are so special.
Sounds like this one is further out than I anticipated. Oh well, I'm fine waiting. I'll still be there on day one. Cool concept trailer, good vibes, I'm into it.
There are already plenty of great games about faith and religion. I'm definitely up for it.
A lonely game? Not quite so up for it. Naughty Dog have been on a bit of a downer streak.
@Godot25 Last of Us 2 was first reported to have cleared 10m in 2022, no official figures since then I don't think.The problem with that is that you get clickbaity game sites reporting that figure for years after the fact.
With remastered releasing and the show having aired since then, i can only imagine its millions more in the last 3 years.
TLOU has definitely sold significantly more, but with three versions over 12 years, (7 years on the sequel) TLOU bundles, again the TV show, and the the inevitable sequel drop off (sequels to megahits rarely sell more) what do you expect?
TLOU2 was not a flop, thats just a narrative that haters spun to make them feel better about themselves. If you think Sony wouldn't throw money at sequel, especially with the success of the show, you'd be wrong (in my opinion)
As for the length, fair criticism, personally i liked that it was long, it gave it an ambitious feel. Even people that didn't like it can't fault the ambition. I thought the scenarios the game threw at us were varied enough to keep it high quality from start to finish.
From the makers of revenge bad the game comes religion bad the game
@LifeGirl I mean, there's no proven facts about faith and religion so how do you not inject your own opinion when it's the topic at hand?
Press F to faith.
@ChrisDeku @TheKurgan @J2theEzzo @themightyant
Yup my bad, need some ☕
@__Seraph Nobody is saying that TLOU 2 was flop lol. I'm pretty sure game was profitable. But that sales drop is pretty substantial and no amount of excuses can cover it.
Since february 2022 (which is date for Insomniac leak that revealed sales) TLOU 2 got a remaster which bumped up sales. But TLOU 1 got a remake which also bumped up sales. So it's not like second game magically caught first game.
I'm fully aware that first game got more time on the market. But you have to be delusional if you think that TLOU 2 will EVER catch first game in terms of sales.
Let's just admit that second game is nowhere near "cult" status as first game was. And only interesting thing about it was shock value in story choices. And when people are talking about it nowadays it's not often in good terms. You liked it and that's more important. But numbers are telling different story.
Yoshida recently told during interview that Sony was disappointed in sales of HFW. Not because it didn't earn enough money but because first game sold way more. Don't you think TLOU is in same bucket?
I hope this is a big game for PS5. As there hasn’t been much outside of Ratchet and Clank and Astro Bot that i have really enjoyed from 1st party, which is all i play on PS consoles. So i want this one to be really great. Time will tell, but i am interested. Now bring on that God of War remaster.
Faith, religion and loneliness have been the main themes of many great sci-fi films. I believe gaming is an equally valid medium to film, but we need big themes to prove that.
Not all games of course, there's still room for fun. But otherwise we'll eternally be seen as sweaty lumps playing CoD in a darkened room, eating Pringles and ogling Lara Croft's boobs. And personally I only enjoy one of those things.
@Steel76 Why whats wrong with that? FF7 also has themes of faith and religion. Does that make the game bad?
What about most fromsoft games like Demon's Souls and Bloodborne? Are they bad because they have themes of religion and faith?
So "video game god" is making Shin Megami Tensei game where you must kill a god? That's intriguing.
@AhmadSumadi There are opinions and then there are "opinions".
Naughty dog have delivered some of the best games ever made imo. So whilst it might not be tlou 3. Naughty dog deserve the freedom to make something new.
@LifeGirl fair point. I understand.
Its amazing how people can tell so much about a future game based on two words. People should at least be honest and say they are bigots and would rather games only exist to massage their fragility.
Naughty Dog don't miss so I will play this and I fully expect it to be a good game, enough to give them the benefit of the doubt at the very least.
In my view ND are very good at worlds and environments, and particularly contemporary worlds, including ruins past and near-future.
I’ve never been a fan of their gameplay which I’ve never felt was up there with the best in the third person genre.
Whilst their environmental storytelling and various notes dotted around the world are excellent, I’ve found the overall narratives/themes to be a bit hit or miss at times. It’s more the little stories that are good, like the half dozen notes left by someone who was trapped in a building.
For these reasons I’m not remotely keen on a Sci Fi/Alien world with weird and wonderful stuff. I don’t think that plays to their strengths.
Same regarding more profound narrative topics like faith and religion.There are dozens of indie studios that I suspect have, can and will do that better.
It’s also my view that ND have no pedigree for the type of worlds they are creating here and such worlds are not as appealing to me as the real world locations they are good at.
That’s why I’m cold on it. That’s the issue when a developer wants to do something different - it’s not what made me buy their previous titles….
But hey, by all means explain how I’m actually a “fragile bigot” /facepalm
@voltum3l what political propaganda has Neil been incapable of detaching himself from? And do you have a few examples?
@Steel76 What else have they shoved down our throats?
@Steel76 Did you say that about Life of Brian?
@PuppetMaster Let me guess:
Xenogears: God is evil so we must kill him and get rid of religion.
Vagrant Tale: God is evil so we must kill him and get rid of religion.
FFX: God is evil so we must kill him and get rid of religion.
Honestly I imagine that's what those games are about. Literal storytelling that sounds like something a 12 year old edgy atheist on Reddit would write.
If this game is going to be the same, as I expect from Western media, portraying some corrupt theocratic society or religious cult (most likely modelled on Roman Catholicism) then it's not doing anything new, interesting or unique. It'll simply be joining a long list of media that have all told this same old story.
unlike most people I'm willing to keep a open mind.
@16BitHero "Faith and religion - things that historically and currently cause conflict, intolerance, persecution and suffering but also resilience, hope, community and healing."
That's every ideology in general including secular and political ideologies which incidentally are the two things causing the most conflict currently in the Western world including with the whole culture war wokes and anti wokes are a part of.
@KeanuReaves Bloodborne wasn't about religion though. The Healing Church, despite its name, wasn't a religious organisation. Everything they were doing along with the other groups such as the college it came from, related to scientific human experimentation and attempts to contact literal extraterrestrials to force human evolution. The game simply added religious symbolism and quasi-religious rituals to all their unethical science. As you navigate the higher positions of the Healing Church, it resembles literally a scientific lab/hospital.
@AhmadSumadi What proofs are you looking for? If we're talking about the historicity of religions then there are proofs. We know Jesus and Muhammad were both historical people for example.
The concern I have is that this game will fall down the usual hole of promoting the opinion of "religion = bad" rather than attempting to offer a nuenced, balanced and mature take.
I want to reserve my own judgment until we get hands-on gameplay in the future.
The more outraged certain demographics get about Naughty Dog / This Game, the more i'm willing Naughty Dog on tbh Give us a hard hitting sci-fi game with mature themes!
@TruestoryYep Bzzzttt. All your guess are completely wrong.
I reccomend you played those games. They are amazing and the story definitely not written by "an edgy 12 year old atheist from Reddit" lol.
@Godot25 No one has suggested TLOU2 has to, or should be, outselling TLOU1... where you are getting this idea from? It simply doesn't have to in order to succeed.
TLOU1 is one of only 4 games that Sony has EVER announced sold more than 20 million, they simply aren't expecting that to happen every time, that would be unrealistic. Moreover TLOU1 only sold that many after being rereleased on PS4, the original version sold 8.4 million on PS3. Whereas TLOU2 PS4 version was 10 million before the PS5 version even came out.
If Hogwart's Legacy 2 comes out and "only" sells 15-20 million instead of 30 million like the original do you think they will be sitting there crying that the sequel sold less or glad that they made another $1.5bn in revenue and a bucket load of profit?
@TruestoryYep There are plenty of fantastic fictional religions and I, for one, am super amped that Intergalactic will be delving into the subject. Here are some examples of religions presented as the complex subject matter they are:
Game of Thrones: all religions are subject to interpretation and simultaneously have pros and cons, very much tied to how humans act in the material plane. Some religions are flat out invented, while some others are consistently debated with evidence of miracles occurring
Battlestar Gallactica: monotheism of machines vs polytheism of humans - explore the nuances of faith vs fanaticism on both sides
Dragon Age: several competing religious doctrines - the Maker: real or invented by humans? Heaven: real or just the Fade, corrupted by mages? Elven gods: real or just ultra old powerful elven mages?
@Godot25 TLoU1 isn't a cult classic. It's a mainstream hit. You can't sell 20 million copies and claim it's a cult anything.
There are plenty of interesting things TLoU2 did that deserve plaudits. I personally like the first game more, but it was a bold choice to flip the perspective halfway through the game. Gameplay was exceptional in 2. Fidelity was exceptional in 2. Script and performances were exceptional in 2.
The only reason that you say that people only speak negatively of 2 in hindsight is because folks go out of their way to trash the game, where I would wager the vast majority of people who played the game are quite content to have enjoyed it and don't feel the need to evangelize their point.
I already forgot the name of that game...
I’m really really not sure Druckmann is the best guy to be asking about faith and religion, given his comments about Gaza. The Last of Us 2 was already essentially a lib milquetoast ‘violence is bad equally’ stance.
@nessisonett So Israeli Jews can't tell stories about faith and religion? Are you serious?
I remember when Naughty Dog was making games that really appealed to me. It was a long time ago.
Naughty Dog only cares about pushing agendas nowadays, people were okay with it in 2020 which is why TLOU2 succeeded still, but the political climate has changed and people are more aware of certain agendas nowadays, so let's see how Interwokelactic performs.
nessisonett wrote:
Honest question, what did he ACTUALLY say about Gaza?
Because I googled it and all that came up were some hate videos and posts that keep saying he has Zionist views. But here's the thing... not one of them actually gives a quote from him that seems to fit the outrage. They just link to other people on Twitter saying he spreads Zionist propaganda.
Call me crazy but with no evidence that all reads more like anti-semitism to me. Do you have any quotes that actually fit the bill? Perhaps I missed it.
@TruestoryYep true story indeed. Many of which masquerade as one another in today's gas lightning, alternate facts ridden world - political conservatism/nativism and Christianity in the US as a prime example. Anyway, if it's Naughty Dog, I'm interested.
@wildcat_kickz That implies all Israeli Jews support genocide. Which isn’t true.
@nessisonett I'm kinda thinking the same as @themightyant. I haven't seen any quotes from Druckmann supporting genocide, so I don't know where you're pulling that implication from, aside from him being pro-Israel, which is perfectly understandable position for an Israeli to have.
I can't think of many instances when a creator saw how divisive his last project was, out of spite decides to make something even more purposely controversial, and then it all turns out good.
I'm still doubtful on his writing skills overall since I consider the whole foundation of TLOU2 is shaky at best. Since he wrote Joel into a corner at the end of TLOUS1 (the Firefly's went to full evil mad scientist) & then wrote a sequel on the premise that maybe he was wrong & there was a choice.
@LiamCroft
Thanks for bringing this video to our attention.
Great conversation between two people who admire each other.
I will say that with all the shade thrown at Neil, myself included, it is remarkable how grounded he can act in an admittedly very arranged and thought out setting.
I am about 20-30 minutes into the talk, and I think they might spontaneously hug each other at any moment😄
Major bruh moment.
@Shinnok789 Just got unlucky with the first comment! Haha
@Oram77
People fight entire wars over it.
I’ll be honest, the reveal looked really good and interesting. But somehow, in some bizarre way, hearing Druckmann talk about it makes me less excited. It just constantly feels like he’s smoking a joint made of his own excrement. I’m tired of this guy being such a pretentious and cocky rep for the studio. I know he’s the director, but man, it makes me want to avoid his games.
@themightyant this is the general dialogue when someone doesn’t like someone or something. They don’t like it, but given that’s just their opinion they try and come up with a bigger reason that their views are valid. They must be a fascist, must be racist, must be a Zionist (that term is just annoying and I’m tired of hearing it).
Don’t engage, honestly. It’s an argument made by people who have no argument to make. Enjoy the game. If you don’t like it, there are other games to play.
Heavy-handed critique of Christianity incoming.
Druckmann isn't taking a look at the dark side of Zionism. No one has the balls to critique Islam in media, for safety reasons, so that leaves one choice unless he looks East.
I hope I'm wrong and it's a fake space religion, but that would clash pretty heavily with the real-world branding we see everywhere else in the trailer.
Unfortunately a large amount of gamers are intellectually famished and their surface level, edge lord atheism can't handle any meaningful challenge and discourse.
"who gives a s**t?"
Sony
after all, it is Sony's money that Mr. Cuc... er, Mr. Druckmann is throwing out the window with both hands to push his agenda forward.
and Intergalatic will be a flop, you don't have to be a clairvoyant to know that. and I can hardly wait for Sony Japan to FINALLY put an end to this madness that has been going on at PlayStation for years.
because one thing is certain, Intergalatic will cost at least $300 million. and I doubt that the costs will even come close to being recouped. not to mention profit.
@tameshiyaku
To be fair, they both say "F*** them" twice. Both to the people who wrote them angry or hateful messages (Neil brackets them all into being hateful), but also everyone who felt it was false advertisement when Neil actively showing Joel in scenes of the game where he is already dead.
This is Neil and Alex saying f**** them to a huuuuge number of people. It is disrespectful and a sad way to end a otherwise constructive conversation.
This is with Sony's approval by the way. Sony is broadcasting a message of 'f*** you'. It is a bizarre way to end the conversation. Alex admits that he cannot create without smoking too, as they briefly talk about self-destruction. Again, this is Sony who won't allow mods or adult content. Apparently, the imagery of sodomy is okay and sanctioned!? How high on the level of abstraction are we, Mr. Tamagutchi?
@TruestoryYep never said the figures aren’t real. But the worship, the magic, the “pray your problems away”. It’s all BS!
Haven't played TLOU 2 yet, but read a lot of hate (not critique) directed towards Druckmann from gamers. Judging solely by the language those people use I would not want to end up on one side with them.
See, I had my own love / hate moment for gaming. Loved Destiny 1, hated Destiny 2. As the result I turned out to be accidentally right, expecting Bungie deal to become the worst investment Sony made. Despite all my very real feelings I can't support people who produce hate solely based on story arc, without being able to produce a bit of constructive (or just plainly logical) criticism.
So, I agree with those guys. Who gives a s**t about them?
I hope the 'who gives a ****' crew keeps that same energy when their game doesn't sell and they start getting laid off. Same goes for the cheerleaders here in the comments. You'd better care what customers think or your business won't be around long. The entertainment industry is learning that lesson these days.
@glennthefrog I wouldn't consider myself a cheerleader, but I'm also not as pessimistic. I quite enjoyed my time with TLoU2 and I'm confident the majority of people who played it did, too. It's easy to get the impression that all people hate Neil and Naughty Dog, but online discourse always skews negative. 10 million copies is an awful lot and maybe it didn't sell as well as the first game, but sequels almost always sell fewer copies. On top of that, people were out to sabotage it before it even came out, getting wrapped up in sociological warfare. It seems like people are out to sabotage Intergalactic, too. No offense, but this game has a single trailer out and you seem to have already made your mind up about it and whatever subtext the game may or may not have. The game takes place a whole two millennium from now. On a different planet. The chances of Christianity being the dominant religion on Sempiria (or whatever the planet is called), a planet which has been completely disconnected from the rest of human civilization for over 600 years, are pretty minimal.
You should always listen to your audience, but you shouldn't bend to mob pressure. Whether you like it or not, Intergalactic is Neil's vision, not the audience's. If you listen to mob pressure, you end up with bland, unimaginative story telling. Look no further than Marvel, Star Wars, and everything else Disney has made in the last 10-15 years.
@glennthefrog
There is always an excuse ready. "Oh it's just that nobody wants these types of games anymore." Anything just to continue living in fantasy land.
@Steel76 why? What's so wrong with talking about religion and faith?
@wildcat_kickz
I'm curious how many people played TLOU2 to the end, I'd like to see data for that. If I had to guess, the sequel sold that many copies purely off name and reputation of its predecessor. If they actually sat through the entire thing would be telling. Maybe we can check trophy data or something, I dunno. Contrary to how I feel about the themes within the game and how they are told, I actually did play the game to completion. I even went and got the plat for it. I'm just curious if people complaining truly were the vocal minority or not.
@wildcat_kickz To be fair, Marvel, SW and Disney have very much not been listening to their audience the last few years. That's a big part of why they're in such a sorry financial state these days and why their audiences have vanished.
The whole angle of 'it's art so all that matter is what the artist wants to create' leaves me cold to be honest. It's totally detached from the reality of the situation. This is not an indie project, it's a production costing probably upwards of half a billion dollars. You're not making art for yourself at that point, you're making a mass market product that had better resonate with a lot of people or everyone gets fired.
There's a place for artsy navel gazing in gaming that's not made for profit and therefore criticism can simply be dismissed as not getting it. There's also a place for giant half a billion dollar AAAA tentpole titles. I just don't think there is much room for overlap there, and the efforts to push divisive ideology or artistic decisions while laughing off consumer criticism has been biting the entire industry in the ass in for over a year now and counting.
@themightyant the voice of reason at its finest. Even when I disagree with you, I always find your arguments compelling and thus you make pushsquare a better place. Just wanted to say thanks.
@ATaco how fascinating that you don’t need to know how many people played TLOU till the end, though
@ATaco I just checked my trophies and "What I had to Do," the trophy for completing the game, has a 48.7% rarity. Pretty damn good, if I say so myself.
@glennthefrog I get what you're saying, but I think Disney is in this problem because they did listen to the audience - just not the audience complaining now, which is also kind of my point. You can't please everyone, so pick your lane and double down. You shouldn't go out of your way to offend people, but I also don't think that's what is happening here. People are just getting proactively offended.
Slight edit: that first percentage was for the remaster. The PS4 version has a 57.8% completion rate.
@EfYI ehm, I wasn't talking about some social media dispute, or Neil Druckman. Couldn't care less. I meant the immediate rejection of a game that (possibly, we'll see) handles meaningful themes. I don't mind people of faith and I don't mind atheists, agnostics etc, but I am annoyed by a callous disregard of meaningful discourse or the rejection that multiple views can coexist.
@glennthefrog not really. In any universe, all things can be exactly the same apart from one thing. We see that all the time in movies. So Pepsi can exist, but not Fanta.
@naruball wouldn't mind knowing that, would be interesting to compare.
@naruball @ATaco
TLoU: 38.9%
TLoU Remastered: 39.2%
TLoU Part 1: 40.8%
TLoU Part 2: 57.8%
TLoU Part 2 Remastered: 48.7%
I'm interested in the topic so I'll keep an open mind.
@ATaco @wildcat_kickz yep, a significantly higher percentage of people finished TLOU2 than TLOU1, between 10% and 20% more.
@EfYI Correct me if I’m wrong but I listened to the whole interview and I’m pretty sure it’s only Alex that swears and Neil doesn’t swear in this video at all. 99% sure I didn’t hear him say “F*** them” at any point. Right? Though I might have missed it.
@naruball Always nice to hear, thanks. We all disagree sometimes but as long as we are being honest and arguing in good faith it’s all good with me. It’s when people are being disingenuous or dishonest it pushes my buttons.
This is going to be a real disaster. This is what happens when you intentionally make a game to upset people. That is never wise. Just make a good game and don't worry about the rest.
Seeing as this is a sci-fi game I would love it if the religion/faith angle turns out to be scientology...not a scientologist myself (dedicated thelemite) but I do find them outrageously entertaining and would make for some great entertainment..I'm in whatever it turns out to be..
Lonely female protagonist on an alien planet.... Sounds heavily influenced by Metroid.
@wildcat_kickz The beat game Siny made as far as storytelling is concerned. It had the most brutal.and emotionally impactful ending to.s game ever.
@wildcat_kickz
I'm confused where you are pulling these percentages from? I just checked psnprofiles.com and I'm seeing these results:
°The last of us(PS3, trophies are separated by difficulty levels):
Easy-59.91%
Normal- 48.82%
Hard- 17.49%
Survivor- 9.49%
°The last of us part 2
-75%
°The last of us remastered (separated by difficulty again)
Easy- 53.30%
Normal- 43.48%
Hard- 16.87%
Survivor- 10.60%
°The last of us part 1
-61.68%
°Part 2 remastered
-69.47%
Considering just how many times TLOU was rereleased those completion numbers are impressive but it can't be denied that a majority of players went through the entirety of part 2...and that was a longer game than the first!
Removed - inappropriate
@Art_Vandelay We know literally nothing about the game, can't accuse the game of preaching anything to you yet.
@LordAinsley I've had an extremely complex relationship with my Religion. From being ultra devout, to completely becoming and atheist and now being religious but not fanatical.
Movies like Silence by Scorcese speak to me on a extremely emotional level. Because movies that truly understand how difficult faith is are always fascinating and deeply personal.
I trust Druckmann and NDs diverse team to make something personal, accessible, fun and thoughtful.
@themightyant Alex Garland is fun because he's speaks his heart. The way he said "***** em" was just so good. A really fun talk overall. Druckmann seems to be a lot more careful nowadays since his TLOU2 Israel/Gaza inspiration got taken out of context. Even in the comments section here so many people are willfully ignoring what he said and jumping to conclusions.
Play the games you like, shut up about the ones you don't like, why waste time hating?
This is going to be just another vehicle to dump on people with traditional faith and values, so I definitely will be passing on it.
@themightyant
He says 'exactly' which I'm sure you know is a reciprocation of the utterance and reenforces it - it seems spontaneous from both of them, but it is premeditated as this is a scripted conversation and not a chance encounter at a bar.
The worst part is that this is wholesome Sony - against 'perverse' modding and 'inappropriate' adult content that are fielding this conversation and thusly endorsing the message.
The way that they repeat twice are so generalizing. If we all can agree that a few thousand people are absolutely "lost" and capable of writing vile things designed to hurt creators and actors and should be punished then we can, hopefully, also agree that people who feel like the marketing use of Joel as a 'red herring' was disingenuous a d people openly saying they didn't like the game* don't deserve the same level of disrespect, but they bracket everyone into the same category. And you see their fans reciprocating and going out of their way to comment essentially the same in any article possible.
I will rise above it, but also point out the folly of their ways.
*Many don't like the game because they ultimately never align with Abby as a character which is to say they never sympathize with her, which I think is part of the intention of the narrative.
@ATaco those are the website’s members’ completion rates. If you hover over the numbers, they’ll show you the proper percentages for PlayStation
@EchoRange
Why? What is the end goal of that pursuit? Will it maximize your pleasure only to have your opinions reinforced and reiterated endlessly?
The best writers in video games making a story about faith and religion? Man I'm actually hyped now.
@Bionic-Spencer The Last of Us II got rave reviews. Sold over 10 million copies. And won a ton of awards. That sounds like universal love to me. I personally don't think developers should take into account the vocal minority who hate something when everyone else loved it. Also there isn't a single narrative in human history that is appealing to everyone. And usually the ones that are most universally loved are also hated fiercely by someone (usually the people who don't like the thematic message. Like how racists didn't like To Kill a Mockingbird). And I have no idea why you think a Naughty Dog game should be about player choice. Literally none of their games going all the way back to Crash Bandicoot in 1996 were about player choice. Not every game needs to be.
@Oram77 We're going to have people make up their minds about this game literally years before it even comes out.
@Bingoboyop People are really gonna hate Final Fantasy X if they don't like faith and religion to be brought up in games.
I love how he has said it will be ‘about’ a monumentally vague and far-reaching abstract concept … and loads of people come along and say ‘this game is being made about something I don’t care about.’ Are you actually serious???
@wildcat_kickz that is actually a high completion rating compared to most games.
Since Uncharted 2, I've been a day 1 purchase for ND games, including TLOU remasters. The topic of "faith and religion" will really get people thinking the ND studio sold out. LOL! I'm all in.
But also, does this mean that comments will be disabled for the game on this site? Since it definitely will turn "political"?
@Steel76 "who gives a s**t?" - Neil Druckmann
Well Dante's Inferno, Diablo, Hellsinger, and Devil may Cry have various religious themes.
@J2theEzzo never mind, I thought you were defending @Shinnok789 comment (which he removed already). A bit of confusion on my part.
Eastern devs are where it's at.
ND make beautiful games, but they ain't fun that's for sure.
@EfYI I don’t think it’s scripted, certainly not entirely. For starters they aren’t reading anything and it doesn’t flow as smoothly as a script would. And Neil specifically states he will cut anything they say where they overstepped.
He did say “exactly” but he didn’t say what you said either. Look at @SillyBoyJudas comment and yours already misattributing quotes claiming, incorrectly, he said things he didn’t. Don’t you think that is a problem?
But artists shouldn’t care too much what the audience wants, that makes ***** art, in trying to appease everyone you appease no one, that’s what I took from what they said.
@ATaco I believe PSN Profiles only takes this data from people who use the service. I’ve just checked this on PlayStation console (I had checked it a year or so ago, in a similar discussion) and @wildcat_kickz data is accurate. You unlock the easy difficulty trophy for any difficulty on TLOU1 so the below is accurate
It’s worth noting BOTH of these games completion rates are high. Many similar AAA games only have 10% - 30% of players roll credits, PS Studios games are usually a bit higher but 57.8% completing TLOU2 is the highest I have ever seen. For comparison:
I love this idea!! I wish there would be more stuff out like this. Everything these days is all about equality, social issues, DEI, etc., etc. But then act like religion is some awful thing that doesn’t deserve representation. I’m religious myself, and definitely want to try this. Now that I think about it, wasn’t Bioshock very popular? I heard it had a ton of religious overtones. So what happened to making things like that?
@breakneck Silence was one of the films I was referring to, its an incredible movie.
Personally I really loved First Reformed a few years back. Seventh Seal is one of my favourite movies and I think the knights relationship with God is the key to the film.
Even stuff like Conclave recently and the Two Popes I think are fantastic.
It's a complex topic and its absolutely worth exploring in a video game, as is any topic to be fair. I think some people have a weird skewed view that something that explores religion is going to be Billy Grahamas Bible Blasters or some sort of interactive Edutainment game about the Last Supper. It's totally not the case
@breakneck Totally agree. I’m glad Alex said it because Neil wouldn’t. Of course he’s careful when EVERYTHING he says is twisted and taken out of context.. just look above. Sad.
@themightyant
You have a point.
After reviewing the sequences that happen around the 44:00 minute mark, I'll give you that there are nuances I got wrong on first hearing. Alex says '***** 'em' to the haters and 'again, who gives a *****' to those that would complain about the marketing. Neil brings it up as he says that he "got in trouble" for editing in Joel in marketing to throw people off the scent. So, maybe not damning, but still makes me suspicious of going into another game of Neil's making blind as it is definitely going to be controversial and may not be to my liking.
@EfYI I respect that you looked again, many wouldn’t and would just dig their heels in. Kudos.
Why does controversial have to be not to your liking? Do you like sanitised stories that don’t push boundaries and ask us to answer the harder questions in life?
One of the many things that made the Last of Us (1) so good was it really asked us what is acceptable, how far would we go to protect someone we love. I think that was incredible. TLOU2 made us question when is enough enough, what are the consequences of revenge and other complex topics.
I would FAR rather another story that pushes these hard questions than another milquetoast hero’s journey story. That is so bland, boring and has been done a thousand times before.
@themightyant
Well, I felt like TLOU2 was an attack on me and what I value and the alignment with Abby didn't happen for me, as it did for many others. Instead, the final moments of the game felt emotionally draining and left me entirely without catharsis, and I don't know if I would want that with say Intergalactic. So, I'll definitely research if the game's worth my time.
But I would say that I love games like Disco Elysium because it doesn't offer sanitized stories, but rather asks me rather difficult questions whilst being immensely entertaining and reserving choice for me, something that TLOU2 cannot afford.
I could go on and on in detailing little things where I thought the narrative or structure of the game didn't connect with me, but I am certain you get the gist. And kudos to you for asking all the right questions and maintaining decorum.
@TruestoryYep I feel like you are missing the entire point here.
Do you really think that religious movements throughout time has had no correlation with science or its application ever?
@EfYI Fair enough, we all like different things. I hope the game is to your liking, and if not there are more games released than we can ever play, i'm sure you'll find something else that fits your wants. Respect.
@NeonTiger No worries! Deleted mine as well - good to know we can all appreciate a joke! 😉 🙌
@__Seraph I don't think Druckmann intentionally made decisions they knew people would hate. In TLoU2 making of documentary, he states that his intention was initially to make Abby seem a monster, with the intention players gradually understand her decisions and feel sympathy. Unfortunately, a lot of players thought she started off as a c**t, and still ended up as a c**t until the bitter end.
I don't agree with the psycho edgelords about the game, and I'm not against watching a characters journey as they spiral into a pit of despair, (Requiem for a Dream is one of my favourite films) but I do think TLoU2 misfired with the storytelling, and detrimentally introduced a bit of shock value for shock value's sake.
I'm optimistic for Intergalactic, but hope the story doesn't try to inject controversy just for the sake of it.
@Oram77 Based on Neil's body of work, we can certainly be worried.
@Art_Vandelay Let's look at Neil's body of work:
1) The Last of Us 1
2) Uncharted 4 (Think he was even co writer for Uncharted 3)
2) The Last of Us 2
So yeah, nothing to worry about from looking at those games.
@Oram77 Totally agree. He has a great track record. Here's his Moby Games profile: https://www.mobygames.com/person/164644/neil-druckmann/
@Oram77 Lol, nice try. I don't want to get into TLOU2, because its controversial nature has been discussed to death, but you forgot the TV show. I guess that "we're communists" line could not, under any circumstance, be considered preachy. And that is just one obvious tinny little example.
Look, the games are good, and the show is good, provided one can overlook the decidedly preachy aspects. And maybe you align with Neil's values and don't even notice these things, but it doesn't mean they're not there.
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