@zupertramp same here, I loved man of steel. I thought it was absolutely wicked barring the dumb scene of Kevin Costner and a tornado. I was disappointed by BVS until Wonder Woman tipped up. Funny how I love wonder woman in the Zack Snyder film but found her solo movie to be painfully average (good just not amazing). The extended cut of BVS is marginally better.
I love Watchmen and the dawn of the dead remake so I am a fan of Zak Snyder I guess. I wonder if his films would be even better if someone was there to tell him when something comes across as dumb. Not like JL level interference, just a cut and trim there so a viewer doesn't go away thinking about the couple silly scenes that overshadow what is largely a good movie
@JohnnyShoulder nice! Could be good, even from that short trailer it looks like it will be lampooning another folly of humankind which is one of the main things that Romero's Dead films do
I finished the first season of The Great there, brilliant show. It’s pretty similar to The Favourite in tone, as it’s from the same strange mind. Not very historical but really funny and a total farce from start to end. The final part of the Deutschland trilogy is also out in English now so I’m binging that.
@ralphdibny oh and sorry I'm just getting back to this but no i wasn't aware of any all encompassing tv crossover theory. Sounds interesting. I'll have to look that up.
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"One of the unloveliest and least enlightening aspects of contemporary discourse is the tendency to presume that whatever one disagrees with must be very simple—not only simple, but also simply wrong." - Elizabeth Bruenig
@zupertramp no worries 👍, I'm in and out sometimes myself and I like to make time to reply to people properly so I just browse the site and save the replies for later when I have time! I just looked it up, it's called something like the Tommy westphall shared TV universe or something
I just watched s2e8 of Clone Wars @RogerRoger ! I must admit I cracked a smile at what I assumed to be Anakin's first Force choke, performed on that Poggle dude to get him to reveal how to kill the zombie worm parasites!
@ralphdibny Awesome! So that means you've seen the Geonosian zombie arc, the first time the show leans heavily into a horror vibe. I mean, it's a CGI cartoon and whatnot, but it's still freaky as heck! I also really like the first episode of that arc, which really ups the action ante.
Be prepared for much more darkness, the further you go. It only builds from there.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RR529 I booted Disney+ back up yesterday for the first time since they'd added all the Fox shows and movies, and almost immediately tripled the length of my watchlist. There's so much on there!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger it's certainly getting better as it goes. Still not coming anywhere close to the Mandalorian for me though, that show seemed perfect, at least in terms of my own sensibilities.
I caught a bit of it again today because my parents were watching the episode with Ahsoka. I am sure you are aware of how Westerns were heavily influenced by Japanese Samurai movies and vice versa and that episode perfectly captures the link between the two genres. It's almost like a crossover between a samurai movie and a western and it shows how similar the conventions of both types of movie are.
Edit: I just watched the first couple of Mandalore related episodes of Clone Wars and they were really good. I think mainly because they show a personal side to Obi Wan, something more than his usual stoicism. It is a great choice to show us his past love. Also Anakin was such a legend in this episode because of how he killed that Tal Merrick guy and just laughed it off after. I thought Obi Wan was going to do it but then I thought Anakin might pop up and he did. And Obi wan is just shakes his head "Oh Anakin..." 😂. I don't know why I find their blasé approach to this sort of thing so funny. I also liked the philosophical deconstruction of the two sides of the argument, violent peace keeping versus pacifist neutrality. Generally the show has been "going there" on these sorts of debates which I've enjoyed, particularly the moral implication of a genetically engineered clone army that was thoroughly explored in the earlier episode "Deserter".
@ralphdibny That's fair enough; each to their own and whatnot, and it's all layers to a shared universe at the end of the day. There might be moments, but it's okay if there aren't.
And yeah, the whole crossover vibe of that Ahsoka episode of Mando is awesome!
With regards Obi-Wan, your thoughts made me smile a lot. It's a brilliant bit of backstory for him, and adds a lot of context to his relationship with Anakin, and how he was understanding and somewhat forgiving of his "illegal" marriage to Padmé, because he'd been tempted himself before. They revisit and build upon those themes and characters a lot before the show is finished, so it's great that you enjoyed them so much... and yes, when you laughed at Anakin's first Force Choke, I immediately thought of the Tal Merrik scene! I love how it plays a very brief bit of the Imperial March to underscore Anakin's blasé attitude towards murder. Very ominous!
You're right, it's good that the show raises these kinds of questions, and equally important that it doesn't necessarily provide any answers. It's up to you to decide where you'd fall. As an audience, we're influenced by the fact that we know more than the characters involved (given that Darth Sidious is orchestrating the entire war, and is gonna win no matter what, because he's in charge of both sides) but it's still some excellent food for thought. So much for being "a kid's show", eh?!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger Anakin is definitely such a boss in this series, I can see why your friend rates clone wars Anakin highly as a different character to the film Anakin! (I think you said something like that anyway, it was a while ago!)
I couldn't quite work out if/when Obi wan finds out about the marriage. I don't think he was at the wedding in attack of the clones and it's been a few years since I've watched revenge of the sith.
I hate palpatine so much haha, it's way harder to watch his deceit over this many episodes than it is to watch in three 2-ish hour movies.
I know you've mentioned about how you love the utopian purity of the Federation in Star Trek, I am curious to know if there's something like that in Star Wars that you also like. There's nothing so obviously similar to me in Star Wars, the Jedi council as early as the phantom menace has been depicted as a bunch of hypocritical plums and we all know how the galactic senate ends up. The original trilogy Jedi fare better in their representation because they are legitimate underdogs and the politics is stripped away in favour of a good vs. evil battle. The sequel trilogy obviously combines a bit of both where even Luke is jaded about the implications of an organised Jedi movement - I know this was an unpopular depiction of Luke but I really enjoyed it.
@ralphdibny Yep, that I did and yep, that she does! And don't worry, that Obi-Wan question will get answered before you're done with the show.
How can you hate Papa Palps?! He's the best (at being the worst)!
Yeah, I'm not sure there is a Federation equivalent in Star Wars. Not that there needs to be; I like different things for different reasons, and the political corruption and downfall depicted throughout the prequel era holds a really strong appeal to me. I love the premise of the Galactic Republic, and don't find the political episodes or storylines as dull as others do, because I'm fascinated by that kinda stuff in history, as well as in fiction. The whole corporatism vs. capitalism angle was really interesting (the fact that the Trade Federation has an equal seat on the Senate alongside other planets and governments always makes me wrinkle my nose, and then you look at the Separatists who support Dooku and realise that they're all a bunch of greedy bankers). George Lucas drew a lot of clever parallels, it's just that he did it in the middle of what people thought should've been a popcorn spectacle with oversized glowsticks. Either he took the "reality" of his fictional universe too seriously, or the audience couldn't separate themselves from their preconceptions. Or both. It's probably both.
And yeah, the Jedi are fools. I mean, the Sith are evil in a traditional sense, but the Jedi are equally as complicit in the fall of the Republic. The original and sequel trilogies simplify everything into a "good guys vs. bad guys" dynamic and hey, that's awesome, but the prequel era is just so murky and complex, and yet it also contains some of the purest, most well-meaning heroes. It's a hopeless tragedy writ large, from both the personal (Anakin Skywalker) to the galactic (Empire).
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger haha Papa Palps, that is a grim evocation for some reason 😅. I didn't mean it so much in like I hate the character, it's more that I hate his character which means he is an effective villain. It's so often that we are guided to root for villains these days, even Vader. But Palpatine is bad to the bone!
Fair enough, thanks for answering and explaining more. The comparison between Trek and Wars is frequently made, or at least was in the old days. I think it's a silly comparison in terms of the content of both franchises because apart from having space ships they are incredibly different. I guess the fandom can be compared and contrasted but even then, I've always thought of Star Wars as the popular accessible franchise. I know many people who like Star Wars and very few who like Trek and normally the Trek fans still like Star Wars at least a bit.
I know I prefer Trek but Star Wars is a lot easier to get into for an average audience because on a surface level it's only 9 films.... Well 6 films when I formed this opinion 😅 and now that I think about it, there's actually 12 films including Clone Wars, Rogue One and Solo.
I guess I always drew the parallel of the original trilogy to World War 2 and the prequel trilogy is more representative of the by then highly publicised murky nature of US politics from WW2 onwards. I draw a parallel of the sequel trilogy to a money hungry cash grab....haha just kidding.
I had something else to say but I forget what it is now 🤦♂️, I'll say it next time if I remember!
@ralphdibny ...and yet there's quite a widespread "Palpatine Did Nothing Wrong" subsection of the fanbase who'll argue quite passionately in defence of his actions. I tend to avoid that particular rabbit hole as much as possible (although I will admit that I found his gruesome death in The Rise of Skywalker very uncomfortable to watch, probably thanks to the prevalence of Palpatine memes which make me laugh, and having watched a few interviews with Ian McDiarmid who comes across as the sweetest, most humble and good-natured actor ever... so yeah, some mixed emotions there)!
No worries, thanks for asking! And you're absolutely right in your breakdown between the two. Star Trek was intended as a blueprint for humanity's potential future, showing us how good things could be if we got our heads out of our backsides and stopped being so selfish as a species, whereas Star Wars literally starts with the statement "a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" so your brain immediately separates you from it, and you can just let the fantasy happen. It's great that the parallels and layers are there for nerds like me who overthink the things they love, but it's presented as historical context, not as a prediction of what's to come. If there's a lesson being snuck in there, to keep us guarded against the Palpatines and the Trade Federations of our own world, then I'm all for it.
But generally speaking, and not to cast aspersions on either fanbase, yes, I watch Star Trek when I want to think and Star Wars when I want to not. There can be bleed-through; some of the starship battles in Star Trek can rival the spectacle and excitement of Star Wars, and then there's the conversation above, which... blimey, I have rambled on, sorry about that! You get my point. I'll shut up now.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger haha you what? Palpatine did nothing wrong! Even if his ideology was agreeable, the way he goes about getting there is off the scale of wrongness. You can't force and coerce people into compliance through fear and guilt. Even a legitimate utopia would never work if you have to trample the egos of the disenfranchised to get there. There has to be a choice, you can embrace and educate but to force people into it is the wrong way to go about it. The benefit of some people is not the benefit of everybody and if you brush people aside, ostracise and even kill those who oppose you then your utopia is nothing but a farce. It might take longer to get where you want to be and you may find your perfect society isn't even quite the same as you originally wanted it to be but at least it is legitimate and you never sacrifice your ideals to get there. That's just my opinion but now I realise that I don't even know what Palpatine's main goal was lol, I thought he just wanted to be in charge of everyone and live forever. I am going to seek out this rabbit hole you have avoided and educate myself..... Palpatine Forever!
McDiarmid is certainly a great actor and he is also one of the great bits of movie trivia because he played an older Palpatine in Return of the Jedi as a young man and then was old enough to play a younger Palpatine in the Phantom Menace. I don't really know much of what else he has been in though, I always assumed he was more of a stage actor than a film and TV actor. He's probably a better actor than the mask with a chimps eyes they used for Empire Strikes Back! Whatever happened to movie trivia? Now it's just standard conversation and there is an overload of information for every new release that there aren't any small informative tidbits that could be considered "trivia".
I've never thought of the two franchises comparatively from those perspectives actually. That's quite interesting to consider Star Wars a historical record and Trek to be an ideological manifesto. I've always been fascinated by what is now the "Legends" expanded universe even though I haven't delved much into it apart from playing a few games in the past. There has been times in the past where I have gone on a wiki-binge and read things that detail as far back as the start of recorded history in the Star Wars universe though I forget now what I've learned now!
I think I was quite interested in the construction of the hyper space lanes from star wars. I just thought it's more likely that we will end up with Trek's warp drive as there has been some scientific theory as to how it could be achieved, even if it uses yet to be discovered matter. What I have read about it though has indicated that there would be a particulate build up on the edge of the warp bubble that would explode or something on arrival at the destination and well, destroy the destination lol. Maybe there will be some combination of both the Wars and Trek technologies with safe entry and exit points for craft travelling in this warp bubble. That's if our species survives to that point, somehow I doubt we will. But you never know, one of our evolutionary descendants might get there in the end!
Edit: some short thoughts on the last few episodes I've watched....
Detective Divo - lol
Senator Stonks - also lol and there are memes to go with it 😂
Admiral Trench - were you ok with this character? He is sufficiently cartoony to not resemble his inspiration
S2E17 - haven't watched this yet but the episode opens "in memory of Akira Kurosawa" who directed some of the more well known Samurai films I was talking about earlier in relation to the Mandalorian. He died in 1998 so I'm guessing the subject of the episode is influenced by him in some way, unless the episode came out on a ten year anniversary of his death or something (edit 2: yep it was inspired by The Seven Samurai and by extension the western remake The Magnificent Seven! It's the same story as one of the early Mandolorian episodes too)
Doge Urus - the memes just write themselves!
It's quite telling how much affection the character has generated, though, and I think that's in large part thanks to McDiarmid's performance on-screen and affable interview presence elsewhere. He's one of the most recognisable, human threads throughout the whole saga, even moreso now. It helps that I've never seen him in anything else, even though I believe he's had a semi-reasonable career in television and movies, as well as on the stage. I don't think I could ever separate him from Papa Palps!
And the internet's proclivity for memes hasn't hurt his reputation, either. Most of the Star Wars memes I've encountered centre around a lot of Palpatine's lines from the prequels, especially the ones really hammed up by McDiarmid, and enough memes will make people love anything.
Hollywood is too tightly controlled for trivia nowadays, I fear. Anything which would make an interesting factoid is turned into a press release, or buried. It's a real shame.
As much as I'm an obsessive, all-encompassing Star Wars fan (to the point where my parents banned me from receiving any new Star Wars merchandise one Christmas) I only have the vaguest of notions about the Expanded Universe, a.k.a. the Legends stuff. I've never had the patience for it, although I have recently purchased a couple of random novels to give it another try. Shadows of the Empire was the best I ever managed, because it was a simple one-shot and came with its own soundtrack; otherwise I thought it made for an okay book, a good comic, and I haven't played the game (yet). Everything else just becomes far too convoluted and ridiculous for my liking. Authors seem to go off in bizarre directions, writing scenarios which would never work on film, and it's all interconnected so you can't just jump in and enjoy a decent story with a beginning, middle and end. Like you, I'll occasionally find myself reading Wookieepedia at 3am. That's enough for me.
Well, ion engines are a real thing, and the "TIE" in TIE Fighters stands for "Twin Ion Engine", so... no, you're right, we're probably closer to warp drive. With its apocalyptic consequences for wherever we use it to visit. Yeah, I think I'll stick to trains for the time being, thanks (especially since we Brits already have a reputation for being bad tourists and wrecking wherever we go)!
Trench didn't bother me, no, but thanks for asking. He was safely on the human side of humanoid, and not at all like the spiders which show up in Rebels and Mando. And yeah, George Lucas is a huge fan of Akira Kurosawa, and it's a respect he passed on to Dave Filoni, so you see tons of homages peppered throughout, either as entire episodes or just in individual shots. You're spotting far more ridiculous names than I ever did, by the way! The only face I can put to any of those is for Detective Divo! I've totally forgotten about the others, if I even registered them to begin with!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@ralphdibny Ian McDiarmid doesn't pop up much in film or TV, but he was in the second series of that mad Channel 4 show Utopia a few years back. Worth a look, especially since it's weirdly relevant all of a sudden
Good job, Parappa. You can go on to the next stage now.
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