@The_Moose Like you said, it’s a very nuanced discussion. Let’s take an empathetic approach to the subject matter.
One of my best friends and his wife recently went through a nightmare. A mid-term ultrasound revealed their baby’s heart was not developing properly. There were no if and’s or but’s - their baby would not survive. They were left with three options: continue to a likely miscarriage, carry to term and possibly see their little one for a few hours, or abortion.
There is a lot to consider in this decision. If we are lucky enough to carry to term, will our baby suffer? Is this a selfish decision? What’s best for my health as the mother, both physically and mentally? What in this terrible situation can even be boiled down to simple terms such as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’?
Ultimately, they carried to term and spent six days with her before she took her last breath in their arms. The point is, she had the choice. Is this a scenario in which you want the government deciding what you can and cannot do? Had anyone in this situation chose to terminate, how could any fellow human hold it against them? The weight of the unknown, of the potential suffering of the child…is easily far too much for many to bear. This is a real world scenario that goes far beyond “when is a life a life” and there are endless variations of it and more that folks are living through daily.
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis
@Jimmer-jammer My deepest condolences to your friend and his wife. I hope they're okay under the circumstances.
To the debate at hand, I do understand what you're saying. I think given the scenario as above it would be the right decision to let the parents decide when the child is basically not going to survive as that is a medical opinion carried out by professional experts to the best of their knowledge.
To not carry to term a child however when both the mother and baby are healthy is another matter entirely. I'm not saying that these things are easy, life isn't but we need to understand that there are two people in this question.
I've seen arguments on the pro-choice side who advocate abortion because the parents/s would struggle financially or because it has a cleft lip (something easily fixed by surgery nowadays). To me this a terrifying prospect and a slippery slope.
Do people not have the right to be born and live because of economics? Because they have a physical or mental disability? If we can get rid of them in the womb then why is it any different when they're born? The same rules apply in the end.
I know people will respond to this by saying "well a baby not yet born is not really human" then what makes you human?
They may also say "it's not a full human as it can't function outside of the support system of the womb". That seems quite a relative position to take, premature birth survival rate is increasing as are the earlier premature births, it seems more a question of what we can do technologically to keep premature babies alive. It also raises the question of what to do with those in long term comas, after all they can't survive without life support systems, why are they different to the unborn?
I don't think it is a horrible position to take that the child has as much right at a chance to live as the rest of us.
There can be difficult questions absolutely as you cited above, but I think the life of the child has to be considered.
A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials. – Seneca
Apologies for butting into a conversation with nothing pertinent or unique to add on the matter but... Just got back and hearing this news and the fallout on the BBC news channel and it's making me sad. I feel bad for all those affected and for our those of American friends who are gonna be living in a place they no longer agree with. Part of me thinks we should be standing in solidarity with them like we all did with others on recent causes. Let's just hope that enough people and organisations continue to speak out and keep this a subject of debate.
“We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
@The_Moose I don’t think your position is horrible either. Actually, I appreciate you bringing your viewpoint in a respectful manner. I think some really good points have been made here. In the interest of keeping things cordial (and not veering too far off of what is ultimately a gaming forum) I’d just like to say thank you. Cheers!
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” C.S. Lewis
@Jimmer-jammer I would like to extend the same thanks to you. Very rare you can have a debate like this on this topic (especially online). I'm sure I've ended up on many people's block list for simply having my opinion but I thank you for engaging calmly and respectfully.
Enjoy your weekend.
A gem cannot be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials. – Seneca
@Jimmer-jammer@The_Moose Well done both. This could have easily got heated and out of hand, so it's great a civilised discussion can still be had on such a sensitive subject. 🙌
Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
@Thrillho What do you think of us winning the test series against NZ then? I reckon Stokes and McCullum are capable of turning red-ball cricket around for England. What do you think?
"Man is the pie that bakes and eats himself, and the recipe is separation." - Alasdair Gray
@TheBrandedSwordsman Its been a pretty amazing series really. It’s a very high risk strategy they’re going for that has paid off here but if that’s how they’ll always play, there’s going to be some spectacular crash and burns at some point!
England look to have found another cracking pair of bowlers in Potts and Overton too and it’s mad that they might not even get a look in with our fully fit squad!
@ThereThere I started a Pushsq cricket thread, it may still exist on here somewhere, you can search for it if you want, but I abandoned it in favour of talking about it in here as people were making jokes about the actual insects (crickets) and so forth! Oh well.
"Man is the pie that bakes and eats himself, and the recipe is separation." - Alasdair Gray
@ThereThere Feel free to post in there, if I can remember, i'll post something about the upcoming 5th India test in there. It was indeed a brilliant end, complete whitewash.
"Man is the pie that bakes and eats himself, and the recipe is separation." - Alasdair Gray
Well that God of War article is utterly repugnant. I don’t get ‘fans’. Although given the subject matter it’s probably more accurate to say I don’t get ‘men’.
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