Topic: Corona Virus Panic/Discussion Thread

I don't believe in the death penalty for criminals. I want to see Trump in prison, not a grave.

Besides, while Trump absolutely has blood on his hands, he's more a reflection of how divorced from reality and far-right the Republican Party has swung in recent years than anything. If Trump dies, it's not like things are going back to normal. If anything, the right will become MORE paranoid, and stuff like QAnon will just morph to fit whatever the new narrative is.

And, at the end of the day, I don't think ANYTHING good comes of celebrating death.

So I do hope he makes it through this.

@Ralizah I already saw an actual politician in the US describe Trump being in hospital as an assassination attempt by China. I’ll leave it at that.

@nessisonett I've also heard conspiracies already about democrats 'giving it' to him. As if he's not the victim of a virus that he has left hundreds of thousands of America's poor to suffer from.

But yeah, there are a number of Republican politicians whose comments sound like IRL 4chan posts now.

Crazy people, all of them.

I think it's valuable to consider Max Weber's 3 types of political legitimacy here... One of them being charismatic authority. This is what Trump weilds. Not everyone can do it. You think people would follow Pence or Lindsey Graham or Jim Jordan (etc.) with this kind of blind religious devotion? I doubt it. Trump plays wrestling heel like no other Republican can.

So I wouldn't celebrate his death. I also don't believe in the death penalty. But again, it's not about punishment for me. It's about what would be the best outcome for the greatest amount of people?

This isn't exactly the trolley problem as no one is at the switch here... And I'm not sure there's anything ethically wrong with considering what would be the most optimal outcome.

@Ralizah The more I read up on QAnon, the less I understand it.

My goodness, a fair few folk from republican party gathering on Thursday are now positive. Almost like close proximity in the absence of masks is a risk factor. Have you seen those photos? I've not seen anything that looks like that since March!!

@zupertramp Trump's "charisma" is overstated. His cult isn't really about him, at the end of the day, but the terrible impulses his behavior awakened in their own hearts,, and hardened, conspiratorial fascists for whom the basic structures of a democratic government have been delegitimized aren't going to come to their senses once their orange god is dead.

This all would never have happened if the right in this country hadn't become increasingly radicalized over the last decade or so, frankly, and if Trump hadn't stepped up to fill the historical role he served, someone else eventually would have. It's not like right-wing populists are a rare commodity in America.

If Trump dies, he will be seen as a martyr, conspiracies will abound, and eventually the MAGA movement will latch onto new figureheads to carry on Trump's legacy. Unless an unprecedented crackdown occurs and everyone who has carried water for Trump's crimes is arrested and jailed, we're looking at a pretty permanent (or generational, at the very least) change to our society, I think.

@Octane QAnon makes no sense. But, as with many conspiracies, it maintains relevance because of the way it reinforces feelings, resentments, and suspicions that are already disturbingly prevalent in the general population. And that is, partially, because of the way the U.S. has systematically failed its own population.

@Ralizah I agree in that it's highly unlikely the worst parts of the Right will suddenly disappear in Trump's absence. It's only that all these once disparate and radical elements will, at the very least, not be given legitimacy by having "one of their own" in the highest office in the land.

And I hear what you're saying about the potential for martyrdom, but I can't help but believe his death would ultimately weaken this push toward right wing populism (maybe even globally).

I think dismissing the outsized role charisma played in his ascension to the presidency is a mistake but reasonable people like yourself can certainly disagree.

In any case I suppose whatever will be, will be. Not like anyone's feelings on the matter will change anything.

Very much agree with you on this, especially the last sentence. Therein lies the rub.

@zupertramp Oh, totally. Having this guy as a president is just a disaster, and I think we've seen the degree to which one person can make a mess of things. He has tested the ethical limitations of the office in almost every direction, and it's terrifying how little oversight there is for the most powerful person in the world. And I think even a moderate, pre-Trump era Republican would have handled the pandemic far more competently.

I also wouldn't say that charisma wasn't a role in his ascendancy. It absolutely was. I just don't think it's sufficient to explain his political cult or, ultimately, his appeal to voters. I think the majority of his base likes him precisely because he's a buffoon. I think Michael Moore was spot on when he said that Trump's candidacy was a molotov cocktail defiant voters could throw at the Establishment. And, ultimately, that appeal hasn't changed: many poor and working class white people have been indoctrinated to hate "coastal elites" and "liberals," who, we are told by right-wing media, hate this country and its culture. They see their jobs being shipped overseas, their wages diminishing, and the way they're demeaned and dismissed by the self-congratulatory culture of Hollywood and major media outlets. And then they see somebody they can inflict on the system, who can make the people they hate cry bitter tears, and who will be a smack in the face to the institutions they loathe. This is why, no matter how gross his behavior, no matter how much his incompetence and corruption is highlighted, his appeal never really seems to wane.

That's just my opinion, of course.

@Ralizah Seeing the working class riled up about ‘long haired yuppie liberals’ because the conglomerate-owned media told them to is both hugely ironic and deeply sad. Workers rights? Free healthcare? Nah, give me prisons run for profit and exposure to a deadly pandemic, that’s what the people want.

@Ralizah Actually I pretty much agree with everything you just said. And it's impressively articulated to boot.

Probably we just have a different view on what is meant by charisma (at least in this context). I mean believe you me, I'm not saying he's George Clooney or something. It's just his personality, with all that exaggerated and almost cartoonish jingoism/chauvinism/megalomania at its center, is just everything for some. People love him for who he is in a way I don't think they would most "establishment" politicians. So he's uniquely dangerous, in my opinion, for this reason.

In any case, I appreciate the dialogue. I'm actually all for it as how can I learn or grow but from other people.

@Ralizah Yeah, I agree that I think your analysis is probably correct. A huge swath of the population was looking for someone to challenge the system. It’s safe to say most of it has backfired, but nonetheless I think many citizens perceive the government has, as you coined it, “failed its own population” and that the gov’t has been composed mostly of professional politicians which led to the Molotov cocktail tactic by throwing in someone from the private sector to shake things up. I think that might explain the overall rationale, collectively speaking. (Not saying I agree with it, mind. I’m just agreeing with the analysis of why we’ve arrived at this point). I guess it has definitely turned things upside-down, but not for the better.

On a side note — when reading up on Zenimax I learned that Trump’s brother was one of the original founding board members of the company. So it’s safe to say that if anyone buys an Xbox then they will be circuitously financially supporting the Trump family. Another reason to buy a PS5! 😜

(Tongue is firmly in cheek here, but people have boycotted games, companies, or products for less) 😂

@Th3solution At this point every American who pays taxes, is basically enriching Trump and his family. :')

And yes, some good points here.

The man's riding around in a car full of secret service agents for a photo op. I just can't.

@zupertramp In a hermetically sealed car because of chemical attacks. Those poor, poor secret service agents.

The only person's life that matters to Trump is his own.

But we already knew that from his coronavirus response.

Don’t worry, if you lot stateside think your country’s handling it badly, the UK missed out over 15000 cases from our total because they were using an old version of Excel to store the data, which limited the number of lines available in a spreadsheet. Absolute madness.

@nessisonett LMAO

Still, I'd give my left lung for our country to have leadership as competent as what y'all in the U.K. have.

23,066 cases per one million people in the U.S. versus 7,584 cases per one million people in the U.K.

There is not an inch of this country that hasn't been saturated with this crap thanks to poor decisions from the right-wing death cult running America right now.

Oh, and, in related news, Kayleigh McEnany, Trump's current press secretary, has it, and she was talking and yelling at reporters maskless after knowing she'd been exposed.

And they still won't mandate mask wearing there.

God, these people are stupid.