Topic: PlayStation 5 --OT--

@TheFrenchiestFry Yeah, it’s pretty crazy how one title can suddenly make a whole series take off. Same thing happened with Yakuza 0, which is a game I would have expected to be on that list until the massive push they’ve had recently on Xbox.

@nessisonett That's even crazier considering Yakuza's been tied to PlayStation since the very beginning, but it starts to make sense when you consider Microsoft and SEGA have been buddy buddy for years even dating back to the first Xbox with that whole exclusive games deal they made regarding Shenmue, Panzeer Dragoon Orta and JSR Future

That list is brilliant especially as 7 of them games are on my backlog no need to go and pay for the games in full

'We started preparing for the adoption of liquid metal TIM about two years ago when the PS5 hardware configuration and shape were roughly decided. In addition to design, we have begun various studies toward the adoption of TIM for liquid metals, from the manufacturing process to procurement.'

So that debunking the idiotic rumours that PS5 was planned for 2019 and then pushed back and somehow 'overclocked' when they 'found out' about the xbox flops.
PS5 was specs were already set 2 years ago.

@JJ2 Playing devil’s advocate, it does say ‘roughly decided’ and not ‘set in place’ but yeah, that’s one of the sillier rumours I’ve heard. TFLOPS is one of those measurements that people use who really don’t know the slightest thing about them. They’re not an indication of much, they’re an end result due to the setup. Unless your system is solely doing calculations, there are a million other more important factors but people jumped on the TFLOPS.

Here it is. Alex is NOT INTERESTED but fortunately DF is full of other intelligent people.

@JJ2 The actual shape and APU design could well of been decided years ago and to even push 2.0Ghz would require a big investment in dissipating the heat generated by running at that speed. At 2.0Ghz, the PS5, with EXACTLY the same design Chip would come out at 9.2TF - which as we know was the rumour.

If you look at other available RDNA GPU's from AMD, 2.0Ghz is well above what many can be overclocked to so its entirely possible that Sony had planned to 'boost' up to 2.0Ghz with their design and use Liquid Metal to assist with Cooling. Its also possible that when MS announced their 12.1TF design, Sony bumped up the max clock frequencies - enabled in part by the use of Liquid Metal which they had planned for. Even planning for a '2.0Ghz' GPU for example may well of necessitated the need to invest in and develop their Liquid Metal solution.

It may well of only been possible at a 'later' stage, not 'planned' years prior when RDNA2.0 was still only an idea, on the AMD roadmap. Its performance at higher than expected frequencies and potentially the heat it generates at those could well of been a factor in enabling Sony to increase the peak frequencies above what they had originally thought possible - coupled with the performance of Liquid Metal. Nothing would of needed to be changed in the design at all if all they are doing is raising the 'peak' frequency of the GPU by 10% - the 'design' could still be the exact same as the APU and even Smart Shift could all of been 'planned' to reach 2.0Ghz. Just look at the boost clock frequencies of AMDs RX 5700 XT Anniversary Edition (1.98Ghz) compared to 1.905Ghz of the RX 5700 XT and just 1.725Ghz for the standard RX 5700 with Base clocks of 1.68Ghz, 1.605Ghz and 1.465 respectively. 2.0Ghz is incredibly fast and well beyond expectation. Even the Series X at 1.825Ghz is 'higher' than base clocks on AMDs current (at least until they actually announce any RDNA 2.0 GPUs) so I can easily believe Sony may well of 'planned' around hitting 2.0Ghz and then found they 'could' boost the peak frequency higher without changing their design.

Its not like Sony suddenly go back to AMD and add 10 more CU's to the GPU or even enable 2 more CU's which may affect their BC plans - keeping the same 'core' count as the PS4 Pro and significantly increasing their 'costs' (lower yields, higher costs) and potentially needing a redesign to accommodate a larger APU. Being able to turn up the clock a bit more can be a result of 'better' than expected/predicted heat generation and/or heat dissipation for example. MS turned up their CPU clock frequencies between E3 and release of the Xbox One for example so extracting a bit more performance by moving the frequency Cap up could well of been made possible without impacting on ANY of the design elements or costs. The 'planned' design is still fundamentally the same but they can 'extract' a bit more performance than they had originally designed.

Not saying they did this purely because of MS but MS did boost their CPU because of Sony's PS4 spec.

Im not into endless keyboard arguments. It's obvious that the variable frequencies philosophy was intended from the beginning and not a result of 'overclock' reaction.. the advantage of it is precisely to have incredibly high clocks and be more efficient. They knew exactly, 2 years ago, what cooling system was needed for the exact power supply predicted. Cant change that.
Just like Rich I was interested in the SSD on the board and a bit surprised. It's like 6 SSDs (3 on each side) or am I wrong?
We can see the large pool of SRAM Cerny was talking about near the SSD. It's interesting DF keep comparing with xbox but never mention the xbox SSD. As a matter of fact there is no picture of that SSD. It's like secret stuff

@JJ2 I think it's three of 275GB each (825 in total).

Does that even make sense? I don't know.

@JJ2 Without getting into any arguments, I am NOT disagreeing with my post at all. All I am saying is that the entire design could well of been built initially around a slightly lower clock frequency - say 2.0Ghz and still been extremely high clock frequencies and better efficiency. Raising the cap to 2.23Ghz doesn't necessarily change anything about the design - not the PSU, not the APU design (inc Smart Shift), not the cooling etc. It could well be a 'small' tweak that still fits in with EVERYTHING they designed and built around - giving the PS5 a spec boost with NO extra cost penalties whatsoever.

Planning something around say 2.0Ghz with 'guesstimated' performance (heat, frequencies, efficiencies etc) of architecture that is still a long way from being a reality - lets be honest, at the time they are talking about when they started 7nm was not being made at all so they can only go by 'projections', estimates etc. A conservative estimate in the planning could end up being 'better' than expected in reality enabling Sony to raise the cap by 10% and still keep EVERYTHING within the same budget, same running costs, same thermal margins etc.

Not saying that Sony 'did' bump the specs as a direct result of MS's specs, for all we know, the 'better' than expected performance and efficiency of their design was what enabled them to push a bit more out of it BEFORE finding out what MS's specs were, whilst in their own 'testing' phase. After all, its not until they have the first run APU can they actually begin to test it to see IF it delivers more or less what they expected. If it delivers less 'heat' than expected, maybe a bit more efficiency, they can turn the frequency up so it may generate a bit more heat and still within their planned operational temp range but still only draws the same power they anticipated too. EVERYTHING is still as 'planned', the Same PSU, Same Thermal solution, Same Efficiencies and Smart Shift - just running a little bit faster because it can....

@BAMozzy
Cerny said they would struggle to reach 2ghz with the old philosophy sounds like the variable fre is intended to go way beyond from he start. Edit : he said running a GPU 2ghz was looking like an unreachable target with the old strategy (not necessarily the ps5 but a general statement)
Anyway. I'm no tech guy. Just trusting what Cerny is saying . DF video was a bit weird as they talk more about the SeX and dont look happy just found it funny haha

@Octane Yes 3 4 channel chips give you 12 channels. Reading from multiple slower chips simultaneously is how they can build such a fast SSD in budget.

@JJ2 on otherwords, implying that they had to change to try and get 2Ghz - however, when they got real hardware in their hands and tested it against their predictions, they may have found they could actually reach 2.23Ghz.

2Ghz is unreal - even in a PC space - so it would be a massive undertaking and planning to reach that milestone in a $500 console and run with the power consumption, durability etc of a console. All of that would take a change from the 'norm'. A relatively small boost of 10% can easily be applied if its performing better than expected. It doesn't affect ANY of their plans - its a 'simple' calculated tweak to the BIOS, a tweak to raise the cap. They could tweak it further too if they had any cause before release with an update (NOT that I expect them to but its possible. It seems they are happy with the specs they announced as it appears the same as GDC.

I am not disagreeing at all that the PS5 was designed as it was over 2yrs ago. Everything they would need to do for 2.23Ghz, they would still need to have done for 2.0Ghz too. IF RDNA2.0 and their cooling system is more efficient too in their testing, they would have enough leeway to boost the GPU cap up to 2.23 with a simple BIOS update. NO extra financial outlay, no need to change any of their plans, any changes to any of the hardware, no changes to manufacture. It can be updated before dev kits even started come out - just by testing the silicon, how it works and its thermal performance at various frequencies and 'finalised' once they have the actual running data of real silicon. It can start off with the goal of making a console that can actually do at least 2.0Ghz and as Mark says, to hit 2Ghz would be a struggle with the old philosophy

I don't think Series X could be boosted to 2Ghz and that's around 10% faster too because its designed around the old philosophy - even a 1.9Ghz boost now could be a struggle. Sony has an extensive cooling system and a large size with a lot of space on a large motherboard compared to Series X, much more compact and small - Plus a smaller PSU which would get hotter as it gets pushed more.

Point is, I am not saying Sony's plans had to change at all, I am saying that they planned to hit 2Ghz and through 1 reason or another, opted to cap it at 2.23Ghz before announcing the spec to the world. Sony and MS will still be testing certain frequencies that can change and will tell you that they haven't finalised the details because they may aim for 12TF or very fast GPU, but its not until they start testing their actual hardware, can they settle on specs that 'fit' into their 'concept' design. Sony could well of set out with goal of 2Ghz and in testing found they actually exceeded their estimates and can actually do 2.23Ghz.

Well if I see 'Ghz' that many times again I think my eyes will start to bleed.

@JohnnyShoulder One might say it really hertz reading GHz that many times.

@BAMozzy
The thing is its convenient to forget that the first leak was showing gonzalo at 1.8ghz.
I know it suits the narrative of a certain group of people but you d be insane to suggest they suddenly decided to 'overclock' a console from 1.8 to 2.23 with no respect for the cooling/power supply already in place. It was planned. (Oh and btw some fanatics also suggest Sony pushed RDNA 1 to add ray tracing and stuff in the process in the same non sense theory)
There is no 'reaction to suddenly finding out xbox had more flops' credible narrative haha.
>>>>>That conspiracy theory and FUD (from Windows Central and co) doesnt hold any ground is what I'm saying.

Edit
I dont know why people dont want to listen to Cerny. They provide a power supply and then made a cooling solution accordingly. Was 2 years ago.
The whole variable frequency strategy just adjust the clocks accordingly. Its only 'capped' as high as it possibly can.He explained it all.

Red gaming tech has put out a video regarding the conspiracy theories around the PS5 including the overclocking.

Love me some good conspiracies; PS5 sends out 5G and causes covid.

@nessisonett

@Octane And there is me thinking it was Disney to get everyone to sub to D+.

@Ryall
'The reason for trying to use the liquid metal TIM is that the main processor (SoC) has a high operating frequency, but the die is small and the heat density is "very high" (Mr. Otori). In particular, the heat density of SoC during games is "much higher" than that of PS4, he said. That's because the PS5's SoC "basically runs at almost full power during games," he said. Therefore, the value of TDP (Thermal Design Power) and the amount of heat generated during the game are "almost the same".'
And that's the way it was planned 2 years ago.