@LogicStrikesAgain Yep. That ends very badly though. It bites themselves in the end (after it destroys everyone else.) When parasites kill the host, it kills them too. The only reason "business as usual" has persisted to now was the public collectively defecit spending. But it's hit rock bottom. As these companies "need" more money on the products, they'll lose sales continuously until they (not necessarily PS, but also not necessarily not), end up unsustainable. As we've seen in the games industry already, then you get the rounds of layoffs, consolidation, closures, but for more and more of the economy. Right now the economy is depending on the top third to do all the spending that the bottom 2 thirds used to. And for now they are, but it's an illusion as they're only spending in certain areas.
Guaranteed, this ends in the largest economic nightmare that's been seen since WWII. Maybe not this year, maybe not in 3 years. But it's coming, and I don't see how it's avoidable now. People pass off "but everything is more expensive, oh well" are missing the bigger, much more dangerous picture. The Fed sees it, it's why they've been clobbering interest to try to stem it and the companies keep making end runs around it. They know the spiral we're in. The big banks keep warning too.
In console land, if things don't change, the next gen will be way worse than this one. This one's doing ok because the early upshot at the old prices in the old economy jump started it. Real sales at new pricing in the new economy are not going to do so well. Game sales tell us a lot about how the games market is really doing, and they've been terrible. More and more of the market is just moving to F2P gatcha on whatever device they have because consoles priced themselves into that "weird" premium space where people are willing to pay a lot, but not nearly enough people.
Edit: Outside electronics I actually have seen more and more companies making cheaper versions of product that they used to make, so there ARE price reductions happening through more utilitarian manufacturing to meet the economy. Not in all sectors, but some elements DO get it. Electronics will have to keep up if it wants to survive too.
@TheMightyImp2 See, once we start comparing what was once commodity consumer products to designer fashion of which the sole purpose is an outward demonstration of social status, is the moment that electronics have jumped away from being what they were, and why most people who bought them, bought them.
No, a $700 console isn't a lot of money compared to a Luis Vuitton jacket, a Mercedes, a bungalow in in Costa Rica, a Lear twin engine, or the deed to the Empire State Building. It's still asinine for a console that's marginally better than the $500 console that was already overpriced. I'd joke that maybe next they'll sell multi-thousand dollar 24k gold plated playstations, but I recall a Push Square article years ago about a 3rd party seller that was already doing that........
FWIW, IDK the exact dollar amounts for the Xbox All Access, I just know it's a 2- year GPU subscription and the console rolled into monthly payments. They don't advertise it much anymore these days.
I know that's what Apple started. If they want to make Playstation a brand for the Vuitton crowd, they can do that, but they should also expect most of their customers may just take their game purchasing elsewhere.
Though I'd argue PS5 price is still too high for the current economy, and sales numbers are reflecting that as it is. A lot of previous gen sales happened after price cuts below $400. It's bull pricing in a hibernating bear market.
Err, no. Most people have a $200-400 phone. Some people have a $500-1000 phone. $1500 phones are status symbols for a very particular group. However vs the days of the PS2, people do have to frequently spend at least a few hundred on a phone, which also depletes their disposable income along with many other essentials that didn't exist back then.
@themightyant If consoles want to survive, yes consoles need to be cheaper, and stop chasing the technology dragon. They can't keep just jacking up prices forever, while the masses have even LESS spending power and expect to actually maintain sales. At this point they should just stick with PS5 for the next 30 years if that's the cheapest they can get it. Ever more expensive consoles do not have a place in the world, and just saying every few years "whelp, tech price is forever static so the next 10% will cost you another $500 vs last time" doesn't work. If they want to say console gaming is just for the rich, well....good luck on software sales, which are already in the toilet as-is.
I get what you're saying but the argument that tech is done evolving, pricing for performance is static forever, and every improvement will be done by stacking ever more cost onto the current pricing, frankly spells the end of technology as a consumer product and moves us very rapidly toward an all thin client cloud future faster than you can say "Cerny".
Spiraling cost of goods, coupled with ever decreasing disposable income = hard recession that makes 2008 look like a dress rehearsal or full depression that makes 1930 look like the good old days. You may be right about how the businesses will run things, but I'm also right about what happens after.
Also keep in mind that the economy was propped up through inflation by a mix of the rich spending twice as much, and both rich and poor depleting their savings almost entirely. The public basically did a bail-out of the economy and it's the only reason we're not looking at a depression already. But that trick worked only once. The savings is gone and not coming back. So what happens next? These companies are living on yesterday. It won't hold up forever.
Paid beta testing. You loved it in software, now you can do it in hardware, too! How about. Design the PS6. Then sell the PS6. Hard concept?
Of course BC games will run on the PS6 in Pro mode just as happened with 4Pro and 1X.
But, I'm getting disillusioned with DF that seems to be acting as a marketing arm for Sony ever since the PS5 Pro came around, and is now stating the obvious like it's a unique advantage of the Pro. And still ignores the strangeness that Sony felt it needed its own upscaler proprietary to themselves as though the GPU vendor isn't already including it.
Just from their fawning over Pro and carrying water, I don't think I could ever trust DF to have non-biased opinions. Their measurements are fine, but their opinions, no, they're too biased to the new shiny or whoever's PR department is copying up to them at the moment.
@themightyant ", times have changed, EVERYTHING is more expensive. "
While that's true for what to expect on pricing I also don't buy it. "Times changed" for corporate profit goals, corporate B2B trade etc. Times did NOT change in the same direction for consumers who have less disposable income now than they did with then PS5 launched and have depleted most to all savings, where income effectively remained the same, but non-discretionary spending doubled. Where $500 was passable for a mainstream console in 2020, $400 would be pushing it today for the mainstream consumer. Sure the enthusiasts would spend $10,000 on the latest PS just to have it, but not the masses, whom they need for software sales.
You're not wrong that companies don't seem to understand that and won't price accordingly. Let's see if we can turn the looming recession into a depression!
@HonestHick The PS6 if it's releasing in the next 3 years and is AMD based and is not over $1k, is not going to be 4090 tier. What you see on PC now is as good as you're going to see this game until it's inevitable remake (where they make it a time traveling trilogy and Torgal is a being from another dimension seeking to conquer the world.) The engine is just pure garbage and I can't for the life of me understand why they gave anything Luminous based another go. That said, Rebirth managed to make UE5 just as bad....
There's a few dogs out there right now that even 4090's can't brute force. This is the big one (and also the low settings and ultra settings are almost the same. Looks similar, performs similar and in fact ultra has much better shadows with little performance hit vs low which isn't very low and still performs bad.) Metaphor: Refantazio's demo is another. Out of the box high settings drag 4090s to 40fps. It's not a super advanced looking game, just horribly optimized like every game today. That said, at least Metaphor gets 30fps stable on my non-extreme ally, so low settings at least scale nicely.
Something is seriously WRONG with everything in game dev. That ever game plops off the line barely functional on literally THE most expensive, best, exotic hardware money can buy at any price..... It's like selling a toaster that sparks and arcs with a chewed up electric cord insulation but "works."
@naruball Yeah, I don't necessarily mean on an individual game level. The armchair experts don't know that, but frankly, neither do the executives. It's all just a gamble. But where many armchair experts have a clue where then 7-figured clueless executives don't seem to is the overall and longer term strategies. Not just in gaming, look at (in the US) the big retailer collapses, various other corporate collapses. Every one of them was obvious as day to the rabble, but the execs kept on trucking in the wrong direction sure of their genius (and some of them did so knowingly, skimming off the top for a cash out, of course.) Countless strong brands, good stores/products gone, not because the brand or product wasn't desirable, or could even not have been at the top, but because it was mismanaged into the ground. There's been more company closures due to blatant mismanagement than actual brand failure or lack of product demand. Just because their daddy could buy their way into Yale, doesn't mean they're actually smart.
Overall I think it's a good thing for manufacturers to not run out, to produce enough to meet demand, and to not try to use artificial scarcity and FOMO to sell products.
I think where people are cynical here is that's not Sony's MO. They've thrived on sell out mobs, and FOMO as their main strategy for a while, so while for a normal company we could look and say "they did a good job with supply." With Sony you have to question a lack of sellout FOMO meaning "uh oh, it's not selling as planned." ..... like PSVR2.
If they really just made enough then I commend them and expect them to repeat that trick with PS6. But we know it's not going to work that way, don't we?
@jrt87 I had my Game Boy in a huge hard plastic briefcase type shell box!
Ironically I just put a glass screen protector on my launch switch and toss it in my pocket though Holds up fine. I still miss 3DS. Legion.....does not fit in a pocket.....
Though the switch does feel REALLY TINY and pocketable next to Ally and Legion. I think if it more like a GB pocket now and it seemed big at launch.
@1UP-HUSKY @naruball If you think the consoles are bad until you think of phones, try thinking of workstation laptops! $2k-3k on your back.....you need a private security detail
It'll go on sales fast I think. This brings it down to match PC pricing (good on Square!), and PC pricing is holding its price because it's a brand new release. It'll drop in price on sales quickly on PC I think, and console will probably follow.
@HonestHick Thing cripples 4090. Pro won't do squat for it. You'll get an even sharper, more detailed 30fps mode and a still inconsistent but maybe somewhat less blurry 60fps mode.
Even 4090 users are having huge issues with 60fps mode being wildly inconsistent. Even on 4090 it will NOT hit stable 60fps without relying heavily on framegen and DLSS. Some users have taken to disabling SSR and AO to then turn off framegen and dynamic res to get a true 60fps, where apparently SSR is extremely over-accurate in calculating water reflections and some other surfaces and contributing to the big dips, because for some reason the devs decided using all the GPU to do advanced simulations of light refraction was a good idea.
Bottom line: That's the best a 4090 can do with this wildly broken engine. Pro doesn't stand a chance. It'll be less bad than on base PS5. It'll still be bad. 4090 will be less bad than Pro. It's still bad.
@UltimateOtaku91 That would place it under Masuda's watch. Everything he did was bizarre in decision making. If we flash back that's when they were selling half the company, investing all in on NFTs etc. Maybe the value of NFT cloud seemed better than the trinket they'd get for Astrobot collabs? Square seems maybe more on track with the new leadership. At the time they were probably assuming XVI and Rebirth would be 20-million sellers.
Hopefully everyone saying it's a bug is correct. OTOH, that's a heck of a think to accidentally get into the firmware. "Accidentally" changing the background image from static game art to a live feed doesn't happen, so if this isn't the intended result one wonders what the intended result actually is, and it still seems clear the ability to shove a live feed as the background is baked into the system and is indeed the reason for no custom backgrounds. Either way, intentional or not, their ability to control the backgrounds is a core part of their design.
@Grumblevolcano At this point, every stupid thing MS does, after the flames die down, Sony just copies it and gets a free coat of "but it's Sony so it's different" applied. They're the same console.
@tameshiyaku Agreed. I like now the modern narrative around tech is "well it doesn't come down in price anymore, it just keeps getting more expensive."
So, what, in 2040, PS5 will still be produced and on shelves for $550 and PS5 Pro for 700 for those that want that level of technology while PS8 will be $2200 for those that want that level? Better come with a lot of RGB and an ATX form factor. I don't buy it. Tech still comes down in price, the problem is that the advancement of tech slowed to a crawl so that the need for new products to replace old ones is now a 10-15 year wait vs 2-3 years 20 years ago. But they need to keep reselling the same thing slightly better at higher prices and higher costs of production because their business models crumble without planned obsolescence cycles, where tech has really arrived to the point it's like microwaves. You keep it 10 years until it breaks, then buy the same one again. But the 90's tech business model doesn't allow that.
@tameshiyaku to be fair, only about half of the ultra loyal population here bought a pro and they're still available to order, so I'm not sure it's working this time...
@BushSwan believe it or not, Metas quest platform is ad free putting it ahead of ps and Ms now. Though you can bet they're harvesting scary data with a headset so it's a phyrric victory.
Wow, who would have thought that Sony would do everything they possibly can try make sure Xbox doesn't look so bad?
And here we thought the little Doritos and Old Spice ads in a little tile in the Xbox dashboard we're bad. Now PS5 makes that look like the tasteful design.
Oh thank feck I'm escaping console.
@jrt87 don't forget the comical number of button presses to shut down, the fact that long press of ps button differs from any other device, and, how you have to sit and wait while games delete or copy.
@Yousef- 🤣🤣🤣
@Reptilio if it's online you do. Last tile on the second row is always an ad, though many times it's just a game pass ad so you may not notice but it's also been for razer controllers, Doritos, old spice, monster energy, McDonald's, the game awards, ironically TLoU TV show, etc. much of the time is a game or game pass
Not surprising, like how immediately after Eurogamer interviewed Luke Ross the vr modder, Rockstar issued cease and desists, and then wouldn't even reply to him OR patreon about that copyrights he allegedly violated considering he doesn't distribute any rockstar materials, just a mod for their game. They never replied and that's their game. Threaten, then ghost, so if you want to find out what they're accusing you of you have to face their litigation in court. Even if they're bluffing, which they've done before and lost to a modder in court. But most can't risk their whole life to find out. Sony may not be like Rockstar but they possibly are.
@Rich33 Personally I have a more cynical take on pssr. Fsr isn't as good as dlss, it's true, but the console implementation is clearly using the low quality performance mode and not the much higher ultra quality modes. The console could have implemented much better fsr modes. There was no reason for PlayStation to implement their own proprietary version of something the soc already has. My best guess is they just wanted to r&d ai tech and silicon for their own use in other industries and ps seemed a good way to get customers to pay for their internal r&d meant for other things.
That said it's really the ONLY main feature of the console. And getting good scaling is an upgrade for sure. But them "pulling a Sony" and reinventing the wheel and charging for it simply to make it their own is like nails on a chalkboard to me!
As for affecting the base console optimization is a good question. If we look at new 3ds the answer is yes. Some games like monhun 4 barely ran on the base model after that. Otoh, PS4 pro was basically ignored like it didn't exist by most devs. It's 50/50 for now I think if it affects the optimization for the base.
What I find interesting about devs complaining about the s is, devs don't seem to complain about the steam deck, or Z1 non extreme, or GeForce 980s still running which are worse than the s. They only seem to mind the S.......... I'm sure install base is the reason. Of course it goes back to them all running A5000s targeting 4090s and then wonder why customers are complaining about performance. Do these people even have a PS5 dev kit? Or any Xbox you can turn into a dev kit? Or a 3070? Did they even try to run it on anything other than a design workstation? The whole industry is a mess.
I'm surprised the casuals even know to go into the menu. The other possibility is that most popular casual games (fortnite, gtav, cod, apex etc) all default to performance. That could swing it. Not that I'm complaining!
@AdamNovice TBH I think xiv mostly thrives because it's primarily a single player story driven game with some occasional required multiplayer and then a ton of optional MMO stuff attached if you want it. The major story moments you CAN'T even do with anyone else, you have to disband parties to enter.
@UltimateOtaku91 Yeah I think it's really about ESRB and getting that E for Everyone rating meaning it must meet children's standards. Obviously none of this is necessary for older ratings. The gender thing is weird though. I've only seen the Type a or b things in Japanese games. Western games still seem to go with gender names, and I didn't think that's a kid unfriendly selection. Kids are familiar with boys vs "icky" girls lol. That's a bizarre one I can only assume is some weird misunderstanding in Japan about criteria.
@Rich33 Yeah, I think the problem is how little adoption it will have. Even PS4 pro barely accounted for install base as a percent and that was half the price. I think third parties by and large other than ones that Sony is effectively sponsoring, will completely ignore it other than just letting the scaler do it's thing. Optimization is so bad these days that the metaphor demo, not exactly wukong graphically, is grinding 4090s into 40fps territory. That game should be running 200fps on a 4090, that's just nuts. Granted I'm running it on a potato Ally non extreme and it's fine with minimal settings, only 30fps and it should be more, but more than fine for that weak system. But yeah there's a case where "pro enhanced" will mean minimal settings and 60 or high settings and 30-50 assuming the release is similar to the demo. FFXIV STILL can't hit solid 60 without heavily relying on dlss on 4090s. Ask these games are flat out broken today. Pro can't fix it. Even 4090 can't fix it. At least there you can strip settings back more and install mods users make to fix the games broken states. Ugh.
Most likely the pro will have a lower install base than Xbox series, and we already see how little attention devs give to optimizing that. Pro, where they can reach the exact same customer without putting effort in, I can't see third parties doing much more than raising the render res, or uncapping fps.
I was surprised about the statistic of performance mode, because most games default to fidelity and require the user to switch to performance. If it's 3/4 performance it makes me think the casuals are truly gone and it's only a core enthusiast market remaining
@Rich33 A fair and reasoned decision. To many people DON'T do that careful weighing of considerations so that s well done decision. And yeah where PC REALLY becomes an instant cost savings is multi platform players. If you're doing both ps and xb at New pricing with at least one of them making a mid Gen you're up to almost $2k in consoles per generation vs a PC which quickly is cheaper.
But... When that pro disappoints on the 60fps front..... We're here for you for that parts shopping list
@naruball to be fair the only reason Sony is making low margins with all that revenue is Jim and Herman's uncontrolled drunken spending on things like those gaas games and over budgeting their single player games. Poor management blowing all the cash isn't quite the same as an unprofitable business though or IS how most of the major company bankruptcies in recent memory have happened.
I always find it funny when people downplay "armchair CEOs" vs "these accomplished people" running companies (not Sony specifically just in general on the Internet), meanwhile plenty of that accomplished guys are proven to have had no idea what they were doing while burning billions of dollars and leaving a value less husk of what could easily have been a successful company when most among the common rabble knew what they were going wrong from the start and manage money quite a bit better. Sometimes the ivy leaguers should really just step aside and let Bob the janitor run the company a few years. Bob may just understand money and consumers than the too clever by half MBA trying to leverage 100 financial vehicles as they head toward a cliff.
@Northern_munkey Not all companies. It used to be that most companies targeted making as much of a thing as possible, cheaper than the other guy and selling as much of it to as many people as possible. It's a new thing and sign of our retrograde "progress" as the middle class economy devolves into segmented peasants and nobles line we've gone back 300 years in only 10. But Sony.... They WERE always this way! I remember back before ps even existed I had a Sony outlet store around. Like most outlet stores they sold factory seconds, refurbs, etc. Unlike most outlets however, nothing was ever actually cheap! They'd sell refurbs and seconds at like $30 of new price. They'd sell TVs (back then it was those huge console crts with the built in cabinet, those big furniture pieces) for like $100 of new, but unlike retailers they didn't pay for delivery so by the time you arranged for transport it would cost more than just buying the thing new at a real store! They'd have big holiday sales like the rest of the mall but they'd hardly ever discount things and the stuff never ever moved lol. Then I'm the PlayStation era from 1-3 they had the whole side wall in ps games and consoles. Rarely refurb ps1. Frequent refurb ps2s. But they were beat up things at nearly full price. And the names games were always MSRP. You could get all of it cheaper at regular retailers. It was like the opposite of an outlet. You pay more for everything to get worse lol. It was a fun store, used to go and walk around all the time. I think I only ever bought maybe 5 things there 😂. Sony never changes.... We're going back to the late 80s, early 90s there. Cordless brick phones had a whole aisle. The ones with the telescoping 3ft metal antennas. Refurbs in white boxes for $10 off new.
@PuppetMaster My feeling is that the pro is a poor and expensive attempt to fix an industry problem with developers foisted into the customer rather than a nice to have upgrade. Consoles aren't PCs. When you buy consoles you know you're getting a trade-off of less power and less fancy graphics than the highest end PCs and console buyers are fine with that.
PlayStation is near a monopoly and is fixed hardware. Developers should easily be able to make their games target the PS5 and run flawlessly with graphics reduced from PC ideal detail. But what do developers do? Build games targeting the best of that PC visuals can offer, port or as is to console and however it runs, it runs. then in comes ps5 pro where for $700 you can pay for the industries failures. And on top of that it's not even a significant upgrade....
That's the crux of the problem. It's not that a PS5 pro is needed or even a decent upgrade. It's that it's an expensive bandaid the customer pays for to fix devs not doing their job and making PS5 games for PS5 that run properly on PS5.
@Northern_munkey I think you hit a lot of the nail with "statement" and "to be seen with". It's true. With phones, what does the new model do that my 4 year old phone doesn't? Other than gaming better, nothing at all. Wi-Fi 7 but it's still so new routers don't really even exist yet other than a few extremely priced ones. It's a fashion accessory. And that's the market Sony is increasingly moving to reach. The electronics as a designer fashion brand market vs those seeking s particular solution. And that's rubbing some people including myself very very wrong. I don't wear designer. Dgaf who sees "who I'm wearing" I just want a product that does what I want it to the way I want it do and doesn't try to overcharge me for it. THIS product doesn't fit that bill.
Funny thing is, if I trusted Sony more I wouldn't have built my PC. It was in response to Xbox faffing about and being a poor choice to keep dumping money into, and also an eye towards better VR. But I originally still didn't want to deal with that initial cost or hassle myself. Considered briefly getting a pro at whatever the price would be and going pure pony from now on. Then realized how Sony would be reacting and started thinking about how they'd price the pro and realized, nope I need to get out and spend my souls before the boss battle with hulst. I kept saying here pro would be 750 and people mocked my that there's no way it'll be that price lol.
So it's a joint venture of Sony doing things like this and Xbox doing.... Whatever they're doing, that I ended up back in PC.
Funny thing is I built that rig and keep playing on my cheap non extreme z1 Ally 😂
That vr kit, I'm hoping finances allow. It's pricey, it was my plan, I'm not certain finances will allow or not as it's not even up for preorder yet, have a reservation in line, but might but be out until December or later. Hopefully funds hold up (and recover from the PC build and quest setup!. ) That and your racing rig combined would the the stuff of legend though! Shame this site doesn't have a PM feature, I think we'd have some OT conversation in common.
@Ajbr8687 Yes I agree it's easier for laymen, and absolutely the vendor lock is a huge issue, and if you're trapped you're trapped. I'm my case that's part of what prompted me to get out while the trahectory of console is ugly because the longer you stay in it the deeper that hole. Between Xbox and PS I definitely have that much in their libraries and had to commit to rebuying anything I still needed to play. So I definitely agree with all that.
That said while vendor lock is a real problem, and for the laymen the complexity is a problem, for most people that are enthusiast enough to be here on this site, most are a good deal more knowledge than laymen, and those interested that may not know have a lot of us here that can help them, too. Joe Casual? No, they're not going the PC route but enthusiasts on this site have a clue and a lot of people willing to help.
Re the pricing, yes, for the initial jump. But it's about that 10-20 year cost of ownership for an enthusiast gamer. Ie looking at what ps6 might bring, the vendor lock issue, is about figuring out if it's a better long term path and the sooner the jump off point the better.
For the hopelessly digitally locked, for the total technophobe that just wants convenience above all, sure it's a realistic option. But there's a lot of people looking over the fence at this point, and should be, but avoid it due to oft repeated funny ideas of PCs. Then there's people like HonestHick who I highly recommend sticking with console to. I know him well enough to know PC isn't for him. He's an apple guy. They round the corners so their customers can't hurt themselves.
@Ajbr8687 No, I'm well aware of that. But the hyperbole around this "amazing" console is all wrong in the narrative. If people want to pay extreme premium for convenience fine. But that's what the discussion, and the marketing, should be. Paying high premium for convenience, because great value, or exceptionally good performance is simply not what's on offer.
There are definitely people who I would not recommend PC gaming to for sure. Though I think most people in the target market for the pro really may be better served by it.
But what most of the PC discussion has been is just how much misinformation there is about PC. The cost value over time is always the big one, but the themes of "having to spend hours configuring games", "constant driver updates", "but I want to play on a TV" etc, there's a lot of misinformation and people remembering how it was decades ago that don't know it's pretty much plug and play these days. It's not about convincing people that just want to pay more for convenience they shouldn't. It's about showing people that might be on the fence or might really end up prefer PC that some of the ideas they have that stop them are wrong or outdated.
@xxdavidxcx87 I am comparing one PC vs multiple consoles, yes, because that's the proposition here. One generation, for enthusiasts is now $1200. That's in 4 years. A 1200 PC can go for a lot longer than that and the cost of the next upgrade would be less than the ps6.
That's great you're excited. why you'd be excited when it sounds like you already have something better I can't quite comprehend, but yay? Why you're trying to downplay the cost benefits over the long term of an ecosystem you already participate and should know about I also can't comprehend. And no the pro is not not going to be a better way to play any game other than exclusives that don't make it to PC than the rig I built in advance of the pro in part because I correctly anticipated exactly what the pro would be and for how much and realized console was now a money sink worse than PC which I thought I'd got out of a decade and a half ago.
@NeonMullet Haha yeah, I can't think of anything about the modern times that doesn't really suck. The one good thing about the Internet though is at least the people you're not near are still accessible.
Though I never had social gaming as I kid. I was Nintendo and everyone else was Sega.... At tht height of the console wars is like crossing into gang territory wearing the wrong colors lol. I had a Genesis too, but they only cared about the sports games anyway . Maybe things haven't changed that much 😆
Envious about the flip phone off the grid life though. No way I could pull it off..... Plus no pcvr . But I'm envious. I just want to rewind time...
@xxdavidxcx87 Once we start comparing selling components (which you can do with PC components as well) and skipping generations (which most do on PC as well) we're really running off realistic comparisons.
While the scenarios exist, the main customer this targets is early adopter enthusiasts. The same type that bought a PS5 at launch and is upgrading. That is the primary target market. Similarly a new GPU is largely targeting consumers that already have a rig to put it in. Obviously either way the first time buyer has an upfront cost to factor in which is there the PS5 pro looks cheaper. But over the long haul in the ecosystem it isn't necessarily the cheaper route.
@Northern_munkey most people spend $200-400 on a phone and these days this phones are more than enough. Even as someone who always bought flagship phones in the past, myself, because I live on my phone and always needed the enhancement it offered, my current phone honestly still holds up to everything I need at over 4 years old and other than the battery eventually failing I don't see anything on the market that does anything I don't already have, I'd probably rebuy the same phone refurbished for a song when the battery failed. Phones plateaued and other than phone gamers that need to run the latest GPU or emulators on their phone, or the hardcore desktop replacement phone users, there's kind of no point to the expensive phones anymore other than to be expensive for people that feel like expensive makes it better (see the people spending $20k on audio gear that's objectively worse then stuff a fraction of the price)
There's also the fact that a lot of phone purchases are heavily used for work/business use, ie, it's used to MAKE money which sets it value differently than an entertainment device.
My PC is a bad example 😂 yeah it was pricy but it's not at all a PC I'd be recommending to the average console gamer looking at PC. I had very specific requirements for a specialized vr rig that's also somewhat futureproof. The thing will crush a ps6 like it's a twig. But I'd never have built that for pancake gaming. It's very very overkill. But barely acceptable for vr and where me headset will be in a few years.
You're in the same boat with the SIM racing. You're THE customer my intended vr setup is for! We need to merge systems, my VR rig and your cockpit 😂. Can relate well.
@UltimateOtaku91 @Northern_munkey I disagree with the mobile phone comparison. Most people do not spend that on a phone. But even for those that do were talking about a device that life literally revolves around. It's people's communication, scheduling, task management, navigation, music, browsing, video, even gaming device. Home and work revolve around it. It's a necessary tool to function. Just because people assign that value to that device doesn't mean a device that offers slightly better gfx than a normal PS5 gets the same weight. And for a large segment of the market that would and overlaps the flagship phone market, that segment spends on PC instead. It's a really odd product that doesn't really serve much of a market other than just making sure to, as you UK folks would say, "Hoover up" any money laying on the table from a niche of a niche.
@xxdavidxcx87 No, nobody would suggest a worthwhile PC is $700 out of the box. What I would suggest is that a worthwhile PC that's much better than pro is similar in cost to the PS5 digital + PS5 pro upgrade path even before you get to cheaper games and no subscriptions. And that over the course of PS5, PS5 pro, and PS6 and/or also getting an Xbox for any games that don't go to ps, it can be both far cheaper and better, minus those few ps games that may not get to PC.
@GreatAuk Haha yeah, I love "big screen" but I'm near sighed enough that reading text on the big screen just isn't big enough lol. Monitor is better then glasses darinit. But I think I've got it solved. Nice high ppd (no screen door) moled or qled pcvr headset even for 2d in big screen mode, costs more than a giant OLED TV, but jumbo screen at a distance I can read! Hopefully!
Haha yeah I had PS3 and Wii u on the projector for a while though. That was awesome...
Gotta say though I do love my little monitor. Only 60fps but beautiful 4k hdr, and at 27" it's nearly retina . I have it on an arm so I just pull it up to the couch 😂
That's kinda a lot of spin here, how much is Sony paying for that kind of spin? About a little over half the population of one of the preeminent ultra hardcore loyal brand dedicated PS fansites has any interest in the new PlayStation.
If they can barely get half of the most fanatical core, this things sales crater in months.
Imagine if only half of push square had any interest in ps6.
@Al3 Yup. "bUt A pC iSn'T $700!"
@Jireland92 A big problem is in the new economy you either make 1980s wages and can afford nothing or you make 6 figures and can afford everything twice without thinking about it. It's more like Rome, patrician's and plebians then the middle class driven market we grew up in. More and more all products are made for the 6 figure patrician's. It's not for the plebeians. You have your water and bread and that's all you need.
Though there's always the value sentiment, this us pc folks. It costs more up front but In the long term may be cheaper and you're not as required to always be current. There's a fair chance the next batch of $300 gpus is near the pro.
@GreatAuk "Just the equivalent graphics card is about $600.".
500, but that comes with an even better scaler, and more raw grunt. And for everyone that has a pc they put it in already it's $200 less, better, and very likely already has a MUCH better CPU even if it's an old one. Initial cost is definitely higher but then the upgrades and up comparatively cheaper and better. It's why I don't believe in these mid Gen console cycles and upgrades. It borrowed the model of PC but without the inherent savings of upgrades. It's only cheaper for first time buyers.
Rather than sell a 700 console they should have licensing require all games run at stable 60fps with minimum resolution targets and enforce that rule on base PS5. Because guess that? Devs can do it. They just don't want to. So they rely on brute force. Force targets in them and magically games will be made to perform well on the hardware.
Edit: why do people keep talking about gaming on monitors vs TVs. HDMI exists. You just plug it into your TV. It's not the dvi and dsub days anymore. Most PC gamers play on monitors simply because they prefer to, they play games like wow that benefit desk play, or because they value ultra high refresh that gaming monitors have more often than TVs. I happen to prefer monitors and have all my consoles on monitors. Too darned near sighted to play on the TV lol. But yes pc has been TV friendly for ages now. And you don't HAVE to fiddle with settings to get more fps, it's just an option that you don't have on consoles that many want to have. Out of the box it's just like console. It just unlocks a bunch of extra options on top of that.
@OldGamer999 Why do we need PSSR? Because Sony is obsessed with making their own proprietary version of whatever exists for more money and declares it better, that's why.
That true but also snarky. There's three main scaling technologies. DLSS for Nvidia gpus (and most likely switch 2 as it's an Nvidia GPU), FSR for AMD GPUs (and both consoles), and XeSS for the new Intel GPUs still very young.
Of the 3, AMD is the worst one which is what both consoles have. PSSR is Sonys proprietary attempt at beating the AMD one the SoC comes with.
Here's the thing though Sony is new at this, AMD has been doing it a while and it's a much bigger AI knowledge base. This first draft is going to have problems the pro is an early access release, and they're showing select games for a reason.
Second, FSR gets a bad rep, on PC because it's directly compared to dlss for roughly the same price but worse. And second because the consoles are not using it properly. The consoles are trying to use it to upscale from absurdly low resolutions. These consoles should not be sold as 4k machines. No PC GPU at this power never is considered a 4k GPU. These are 1400p machines and that's precisely what they should be sold as. Scaling from 1080p to 4k is madness.
The other problem is that there are multiple output modes to FSR and DLSS. The consoles appear to be using the performance mode which is horrible, nobody ever should use it, and FSR in Ultra Quality mode is waaaaaaay better than what we're seeing on the consoles. It's not smeared Vaseline like the performance mode on consoles, it's biggest problem is the opposite actually. It over sharpened and can develop moire patterns in complex moving textures. But still looks much better than the consoles.
So why did Sony need their own? Because they're Sony. They already had a decent scaler from AMD for free in the APU they underutilized in the base console and the pro could have done for free at $200 less. But instead customers have to pay for Sony R&D to play with building their own AI models and designing custom silicon for 4x the money AMD can do it at scale to run it on.
But hey, premium prestige and all that. And sometimes it'll even be the better option!
Edit: and do you honestly think PlayStation is the reason they want to build their own AI models and silicon? F no. They want PlayStation customers to fund the r&d they're going to use to build the AI they'll use for medical imaging, cinema and broadcast products, automotive, and automation business tools. That's where the money really is.
@OldGamer999 The other thing in line with what you said that amazes me with how bad optimization is these days, these new games...ffxvi, metaphor, mhwilds, etc. These things are choking $3k+ 4090 rigs. The games are so unoptimized these days you can't even BUY enough brute force, it doesn't exist at all, it's not even manufactured yet. It had to suck on dev rigs too. And the 7800XT equivalent pro is going to be 60fps fidelity? Fat chance.. rebirth was exclusively made only for the PS5. And they're proudly shouting how the new hardware makes it not suck. It was made EXCLUSIVELY for the base ps5. If it sucks on there, that isn't a hardware issue.
@Arnna They're too similar but they have a ton of small differences that really add up to making then pretty different to use. Particularly for digital customers but that's most customers for both now. PS5 tends to feel dated and limited in terms of digital library management and features. But none of it is stuff that sells on a marketing brochure. It's just stuff if you own both you realize what works for your expectations better for different things. It's really a good platform that's been poorly marketed and lacks keynote feature that makes the masses take interest. So does PS5 really, but it already has the brand recognition so it wins every time.
@smoreon all good points. I think back then they didn't think overly much about the labels, it was just randomly assigned, because they were matching arcade cabinets which at the time had game specific labels on the buttons. Though I still will never understand them making out backward. Sega was cheeky though with abxy vs bayx... Why nut abcd? The Genesis/MD controller was abc. I think it was a blatant console wars shot there
Yeah I've felt for a long time that gaming was ruined by 2 things, one was Nvidia coopting the gaming industry to refocus it from making games instead to being a tech demo for the latest silicon's power simply to fund and develop the silicon for other more profitable things later. Nvidia more or less admits this. Jensen says they were "never a graphics company what was just a strategic thing".
The other is the younger waves of devs being seemingly technophiles and vain, indulgent artists who are only interested in using all the latest toys to replicate movies in real time rendering to stroke their own egos and curiosity and keep their "skills up to date".
The purpose of a modern video game isn't to be fun. It's to demonstrate what the latest silicon is capable of doing better than the old one.
@smoreon Lol true though. they of course did it to continue the NES positions for A and B, but I do recall B before A seemed stupid to me even on the NES!
@Wiceheid It was actually Sega, not Microsoft that came up with that layout. It's the Dreamcast controller layout. Microsoft just continued with the Sega design.
@OldGamer999 I think we talked about it before, but, yes, the ENTIRE upgrade here is simply the upscaler. That's it. It's a $700 upscaler to do a better job making 1080p look 4k. It has that "45%" GPU bump, but at 4k resolutions, when you're not already at 4k resolutions, 45% is barely anything. 100% isn't really enough. That minor bump helps smooth out some frame dips if they were already there, may help some extra shadow detail or AO get enabled or something like that here and there, but the purchase price is for the scaler and the extra 1TB. You're not doing "true" 4k at that performance. There are only 3 "true" 4k GPUs for current games in existence: 4080 ($1k), 4090 ($1.6k), 7900XTX ($1k.) That's it. Cards below that can do 4k of course, but they're really considered 1400p cards, that's their real sweetspot for performance/visuals on average. Pro falls into that. The problem is base PS5 was more of a "1080p card" but could do 1400p PS4 games. But, like with Pro, 4070's even 4060's can do pretty decent results to 4k upscaled and frame gen. But if you're looking for "real" 4k, and don't want to break out that wallet in those extremes, you're going to be waiting a very long time on consoles. I strongly doubt the PS6 will really be that either. The raw dies for that just cost far too much, with Nvidia using their datacenter AI chips to do it, and AMD kind of struggling (and bowing out of!!) that finish line. And they're doing PS6....
It's why some of us haven't been pleased with the pro for the price. It's actually less than a 4070 for more total money than a 4070 (because it's the whole system.)
But obviously if your library is all on PS, it's also the best you can get, too. It's why you hear a lot of us talking about the PC switch. The raw initial price doesn't look great, but it's also a question of what will it look next time, and the time after that. For anyone that MIGHT consider moving their library, the later you move it the worse it gets.
Meanwhile in game optimization land, the Metaphor Refantazio demo (not exactly a graphical powerhouse) is crippling 4090's on high settings down to the 40fps's with massive drops. Meanwhile I'm running it on my non-extreme Z1 ally on low settings just fine. And it's an Nvidia sponsored title. ??? (Yes, that's the demo which is to say beta/preview build so it may get much better but it launches in a week or two.)
I'm not sure which company I want to be mad at. Nintendo's layout is the OG. Sony copied the OG...but them mirrored it everywhere but Japan (before finally mirroring it in Japan too now), Sega just went with the mirror. And then Xbox kind of inherited Sega. Nintendo's the strange one now, but only because everyone made their copies different from Nintendo's on purpose probably so they didn't get sued by Nintendo lol.
@GamingFan4Lyf @eltomo Yakuza launched first on PS, so some might say the PS layout is the "true" layout. But it's a Sega game that was originally meant for the Dreamcast, so I'd say the Xbox/Sega layout is the true one.
@themightyant and then they fired all the top talent and replaced them with interns that cost as much as top talent elsewhere and then trained them be remaking existing games and then charged customers to make back the loss. Meanwhile Game Science starts up in the middle of nowhere and sells them under the table...... Just sayin'......
The glory days of interesting and experimental games that didn't cost 300m to make didn't come from hubs of "top talent", it came from a few people with an idea and a garage and Japanese modest pay scales. Following Hollywood and the "top talent" route is the whole problem. And it's led to the same creative vacuum in both industries. Plus Taylor Swift
Governments love to make grand stands on issues that affect the public by making laws that make corporations use different words to do exactly what they already do. If this law isn't about changing the policy of licenses and ownership and is about changing verbiage it's either a toothless charade by a politician looking for votes or is, especially coming from California where most of the licensing companies are located from film to music to games, is probably a law written by and pushed by the licensing companies themselves to reduce their own legal burden over ownership suits while forcing their peers too have to look bad with them all at once.
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Comments 7,028
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
@LogicStrikesAgain Yep. That ends very badly though. It bites themselves in the end (after it destroys everyone else.) When parasites kill the host, it kills them too. The only reason "business as usual" has persisted to now was the public collectively defecit spending. But it's hit rock bottom. As these companies "need" more money on the products, they'll lose sales continuously until they (not necessarily PS, but also not necessarily not), end up unsustainable. As we've seen in the games industry already, then you get the rounds of layoffs, consolidation, closures, but for more and more of the economy. Right now the economy is depending on the top third to do all the spending that the bottom 2 thirds used to. And for now they are, but it's an illusion as they're only spending in certain areas.
Guaranteed, this ends in the largest economic nightmare that's been seen since WWII. Maybe not this year, maybe not in 3 years. But it's coming, and I don't see how it's avoidable now. People pass off "but everything is more expensive, oh well" are missing the bigger, much more dangerous picture. The Fed sees it, it's why they've been clobbering interest to try to stem it and the companies keep making end runs around it. They know the spiral we're in. The big banks keep warning too.
In console land, if things don't change, the next gen will be way worse than this one. This one's doing ok because the early upshot at the old prices in the old economy jump started it. Real sales at new pricing in the new economy are not going to do so well. Game sales tell us a lot about how the games market is really doing, and they've been terrible. More and more of the market is just moving to F2P gatcha on whatever device they have because consoles priced themselves into that "weird" premium space where people are willing to pay a lot, but not nearly enough people.
Edit: Outside electronics I actually have seen more and more companies making cheaper versions of product that they used to make, so there ARE price reductions happening through more utilitarian manufacturing to meet the economy. Not in all sectors, but some elements DO get it. Electronics will have to keep up if it wants to survive too.
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
@TheMightyImp2 See, once we start comparing what was once commodity consumer products to designer fashion of which the sole purpose is an outward demonstration of social status, is the moment that electronics have jumped away from being what they were, and why most people who bought them, bought them.
No, a $700 console isn't a lot of money compared to a Luis Vuitton jacket, a Mercedes, a bungalow in in Costa Rica, a Lear twin engine, or the deed to the Empire State Building. It's still asinine for a console that's marginally better than the $500 console that was already overpriced. I'd joke that maybe next they'll sell multi-thousand dollar 24k gold plated playstations, but I recall a Push Square article years ago about a 3rd party seller that was already doing that........
FWIW, IDK the exact dollar amounts for the Xbox All Access, I just know it's a 2- year GPU subscription and the console rolled into monthly payments. They don't advertise it much anymore these days.
I know that's what Apple started. If they want to make Playstation a brand for the Vuitton crowd, they can do that, but they should also expect most of their customers may just take their game purchasing elsewhere.
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
@LogicStrikesAgain @jgrangervikings1 Xbox does exactly that with the All Access program.
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
@LogicStrikesAgain Yes, we were talking PS6.
Though I'd argue PS5 price is still too high for the current economy, and sales numbers are reflecting that as it is. A lot of previous gen sales happened after price cuts below $400. It's bull pricing in a hibernating bear market.
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
@TheMightyImp2 "Most people have a £1,500"
Err, no. Most people have a $200-400 phone. Some people have a $500-1000 phone. $1500 phones are status symbols for a very particular group. However vs the days of the PS2, people do have to frequently spend at least a few hundred on a phone, which also depletes their disposable income along with many other essentials that didn't exist back then.
@themightyant If consoles want to survive, yes consoles need to be cheaper, and stop chasing the technology dragon. They can't keep just jacking up prices forever, while the masses have even LESS spending power and expect to actually maintain sales. At this point they should just stick with PS5 for the next 30 years if that's the cheapest they can get it. Ever more expensive consoles do not have a place in the world, and just saying every few years "whelp, tech price is forever static so the next 10% will cost you another $500 vs last time" doesn't work. If they want to say console gaming is just for the rich, well....good luck on software sales, which are already in the toilet as-is.
I get what you're saying but the argument that tech is done evolving, pricing for performance is static forever, and every improvement will be done by stacking ever more cost onto the current pricing, frankly spells the end of technology as a consumer product and moves us very rapidly toward an all thin client cloud future faster than you can say "Cerny".
Spiraling cost of goods, coupled with ever decreasing disposable income = hard recession that makes 2008 look like a dress rehearsal or full depression that makes 1930 look like the good old days. You may be right about how the businesses will run things, but I'm also right about what happens after.
Also keep in mind that the economy was propped up through inflation by a mix of the rich spending twice as much, and both rich and poor depleting their savings almost entirely. The public basically did a bail-out of the economy and it's the only reason we're not looking at a depression already. But that trick worked only once. The savings is gone and not coming back. So what happens next? These companies are living on yesterday. It won't hold up forever.
Re: Tech Experts Reckon PS5 Pro Could Help Pave the Way to PS6
Paid beta testing. You loved it in software, now you can do it in hardware, too! How about. Design the PS6. Then sell the PS6. Hard concept?
Of course BC games will run on the PS6 in Pro mode just as happened with 4Pro and 1X.
But, I'm getting disillusioned with DF that seems to be acting as a marketing arm for Sony ever since the PS5 Pro came around, and is now stating the obvious like it's a unique advantage of the Pro. And still ignores the strangeness that Sony felt it needed its own upscaler proprietary to themselves as though the GPU vendor isn't already including it.
Just from their fawning over Pro and carrying water, I don't think I could ever trust DF to have non-biased opinions. Their measurements are fine, but their opinions, no, they're too biased to the new shiny or whoever's PR department is copying up to them at the moment.
@themightyant ", times have changed, EVERYTHING is more expensive. "
While that's true for what to expect on pricing I also don't buy it. "Times changed" for corporate profit goals, corporate B2B trade etc. Times did NOT change in the same direction for consumers who have less disposable income now than they did with then PS5 launched and have depleted most to all savings, where income effectively remained the same, but non-discretionary spending doubled. Where $500 was passable for a mainstream console in 2020, $400 would be pushing it today for the mainstream consumer. Sure the enthusiasts would spend $10,000 on the latest PS just to have it, but not the masses, whom they need for software sales.
You're not wrong that companies don't seem to understand that and won't price accordingly. Let's see if we can turn the looming recession into a depression!
Re: Final Fantasy 16 Receives Permanent Price Cut on PS5 as Complete Edition Launches
@HonestHick The PS6 if it's releasing in the next 3 years and is AMD based and is not over $1k, is not going to be 4090 tier. What you see on PC now is as good as you're going to see this game until it's inevitable remake (where they make it a time traveling trilogy and Torgal is a being from another dimension seeking to conquer the world.) The engine is just pure garbage and I can't for the life of me understand why they gave anything Luminous based another go. That said, Rebirth managed to make UE5 just as bad....
There's a few dogs out there right now that even 4090's can't brute force. This is the big one (and also the low settings and ultra settings are almost the same. Looks similar, performs similar and in fact ultra has much better shadows with little performance hit vs low which isn't very low and still performs bad.) Metaphor: Refantazio's demo is another. Out of the box high settings drag 4090s to 40fps. It's not a super advanced looking game, just horribly optimized like every game today. That said, at least Metaphor gets 30fps stable on my non-extreme ally, so low settings at least scale nicely.
Something is seriously WRONG with everything in game dev. That ever game plops off the line barely functional on literally THE most expensive, best, exotic hardware money can buy at any price..... It's like selling a toaster that sparks and arcs with a chewed up electric cord insulation but "works."
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@naruball Yeah, I don't necessarily mean on an individual game level. The armchair experts don't know that, but frankly, neither do the executives. It's all just a gamble. But where many armchair experts have a clue where then 7-figured clueless executives don't seem to is the overall and longer term strategies. Not just in gaming, look at (in the US) the big retailer collapses, various other corporate collapses. Every one of them was obvious as day to the rabble, but the execs kept on trucking in the wrong direction sure of their genius (and some of them did so knowingly, skimming off the top for a cash out, of course.) Countless strong brands, good stores/products gone, not because the brand or product wasn't desirable, or could even not have been at the top, but because it was mismanaged into the ground. There's been more company closures due to blatant mismanagement than actual brand failure or lack of product demand. Just because their daddy could buy their way into Yale, doesn't mean they're actually smart.
Re: Bickering Begins Over PS5 Pro's Inability to Sell Out
Overall I think it's a good thing for manufacturers to not run out, to produce enough to meet demand, and to not try to use artificial scarcity and FOMO to sell products.
I think where people are cynical here is that's not Sony's MO. They've thrived on sell out mobs, and FOMO as their main strategy for a while, so while for a normal company we could look and say "they did a good job with supply." With Sony you have to question a lack of sellout FOMO meaning "uh oh, it's not selling as planned." ..... like PSVR2.
If they really just made enough then I commend them and expect them to repeat that trick with PS6. But we know it's not going to work that way, don't we?
Re: Prospective PS6 Purchasers Would Consider a Portable Model
@jrt87 I had my Game Boy in a huge hard plastic briefcase type shell box!
Ironically I just put a glass screen protector on my launch switch and toss it in my pocket though Holds up fine. I still miss 3DS. Legion.....does not fit in a pocket.....
Though the switch does feel REALLY TINY and pocketable next to Ally and Legion. I think if it more like a GB pocket now and it seemed big at launch.
@1UP-HUSKY @naruball If you think the consoles are bad until you think of phones, try thinking of workstation laptops! $2k-3k on your back.....you need a private security detail
Re: Final Fantasy 16 Receives Permanent Price Cut on PS5 as Complete Edition Launches
It'll go on sales fast I think. This brings it down to match PC pricing (good on Square!), and PC pricing is holding its price because it's a brand new release. It'll drop in price on sales quickly on PC I think, and console will probably follow.
@HonestHick Thing cripples 4090. Pro won't do squat for it. You'll get an even sharper, more detailed 30fps mode and a still inconsistent but maybe somewhat less blurry 60fps mode.
Even 4090 users are having huge issues with 60fps mode being wildly inconsistent. Even on 4090 it will NOT hit stable 60fps without relying heavily on framegen and DLSS. Some users have taken to disabling SSR and AO to then turn off framegen and dynamic res to get a true 60fps, where apparently SSR is extremely over-accurate in calculating water reflections and some other surfaces and contributing to the big dips, because for some reason the devs decided using all the GPU to do advanced simulations of light refraction was a good idea.
Bottom line: That's the best a 4090 can do with this wildly broken engine. Pro doesn't stand a chance. It'll be less bad than on base PS5. It'll still be bad. 4090 will be less bad than Pro. It's still bad.
Re: 'Difficult to Comment' on Astro Bot's Square Enix Snub, Says Team Asobi
@UltimateOtaku91 That would place it under Masuda's watch. Everything he did was bizarre in decision making. If we flash back that's when they were selling half the company, investing all in on NFTs etc. Maybe the value of NFT cloud seemed better than the trinket they'd get for Astrobot collabs? Square seems maybe more on track with the new leadership. At the time they were probably assuming XVI and Rebirth would be 20-million sellers.
Re: PS5 Firmware Update Annoys with Unwanted Deluge of Ads, News Feed
Hopefully everyone saying it's a bug is correct. OTOH, that's a heck of a think to accidentally get into the firmware. "Accidentally" changing the background image from static game art to a live feed doesn't happen, so if this isn't the intended result one wonders what the intended result actually is, and it still seems clear the ability to shove a live feed as the background is baked into the system and is indeed the reason for no custom backgrounds. Either way, intentional or not, their ability to control the backgrounds is a core part of their design.
@Grumblevolcano At this point, every stupid thing MS does, after the flames die down, Sony just copies it and gets a free coat of "but it's Sony so it's different" applied. They're the same console.
@tameshiyaku Agreed. I like now the modern narrative around tech is "well it doesn't come down in price anymore, it just keeps getting more expensive."
So, what, in 2040, PS5 will still be produced and on shelves for $550 and PS5 Pro for 700 for those that want that level of technology while PS8 will be $2200 for those that want that level? Better come with a lot of RGB and an ATX form factor. I don't buy it. Tech still comes down in price, the problem is that the advancement of tech slowed to a crawl so that the need for new products to replace old ones is now a 10-15 year wait vs 2-3 years 20 years ago. But they need to keep reselling the same thing slightly better at higher prices and higher costs of production because their business models crumble without planned obsolescence cycles, where tech has really arrived to the point it's like microwaves. You keep it 10 years until it breaks, then buy the same one again. But the 90's tech business model doesn't allow that.
Re: PS5 Firmware Update Annoys with Unwanted Deluge of Ads, News Feed
@tameshiyaku to be fair, only about half of the ultra loyal population here bought a pro and they're still available to order, so I'm not sure it's working this time...
@BushSwan believe it or not, Metas quest platform is ad free putting it ahead of ps and Ms now. Though you can bet they're harvesting scary data with a headset so it's a phyrric victory.
Re: PS5 Firmware Update Annoys with Unwanted Deluge of Ads, News Feed
Wow, who would have thought that Sony would do everything they possibly can try make sure Xbox doesn't look so bad?
And here we thought the little Doritos and Old Spice ads in a little tile in the Xbox dashboard we're bad. Now PS5 makes that look like the tasteful design.
Oh thank feck I'm escaping console.
@jrt87 don't forget the comical number of button presses to shut down, the fact that long press of ps button differs from any other device, and, how you have to sit and wait while games delete or copy.
@Yousef- 🤣🤣🤣
@Reptilio if it's online you do. Last tile on the second row is always an ad, though many times it's just a game pass ad so you may not notice but it's also been for razer controllers, Doritos, old spice, monster energy, McDonald's, the game awards, ironically TLoU TV show, etc. much of the time is a game or game pass
Re: Author Pulls PC God of War Ragnarok PSN Mod, Fearful of Sony's Wrath
Not surprising, like how immediately after Eurogamer interviewed Luke Ross the vr modder, Rockstar issued cease and desists, and then wouldn't even reply to him OR patreon about that copyrights he allegedly violated considering he doesn't distribute any rockstar materials, just a mod for their game. They never replied and that's their game. Threaten, then ghost, so if you want to find out what they're accusing you of you have to face their litigation in court. Even if they're bluffing, which they've done before and lost to a modder in court. But most can't risk their whole life to find out. Sony may not be like Rockstar but they possibly are.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Rich33 Personally I have a more cynical take on pssr. Fsr isn't as good as dlss, it's true, but the console implementation is clearly using the low quality performance mode and not the much higher ultra quality modes. The console could have implemented much better fsr modes. There was no reason for PlayStation to implement their own proprietary version of something the soc already has. My best guess is they just wanted to r&d ai tech and silicon for their own use in other industries and ps seemed a good way to get customers to pay for their internal r&d meant for other things.
That said it's really the ONLY main feature of the console. And getting good scaling is an upgrade for sure. But them "pulling a Sony" and reinventing the wheel and charging for it simply to make it their own is like nails on a chalkboard to me!
As for affecting the base console optimization is a good question. If we look at new 3ds the answer is yes. Some games like monhun 4 barely ran on the base model after that. Otoh, PS4 pro was basically ignored like it didn't exist by most devs. It's 50/50 for now I think if it affects the optimization for the base.
What I find interesting about devs complaining about the s is, devs don't seem to complain about the steam deck, or Z1 non extreme, or GeForce 980s still running which are worse than the s. They only seem to mind the S.......... I'm sure install base is the reason. Of course it goes back to them all running A5000s targeting 4090s and then wonder why customers are complaining about performance. Do these people even have a PS5 dev kit? Or any Xbox you can turn into a dev kit? Or a 3070? Did they even try to run it on anything other than a design workstation? The whole industry is a mess.
I'm surprised the casuals even know to go into the menu. The other possibility is that most popular casual games (fortnite, gtav, cod, apex etc) all default to performance. That could swing it. Not that I'm complaining!
Re: Sony's Live Service Push 'No Joke', A Lot of People Working on Horizon Online
@AdamNovice TBH I think xiv mostly thrives because it's primarily a single player story driven game with some occasional required multiplayer and then a ton of optional MMO stuff attached if you want it. The major story moments you CAN'T even do with anyone else, you have to disband parties to enter.
Re: Dragon Quest Veterans on Dealing with 'Ridiculous Country' USA Amid Censorship Row
@UltimateOtaku91 Yeah I think it's really about ESRB and getting that E for Everyone rating meaning it must meet children's standards. Obviously none of this is necessary for older ratings. The gender thing is weird though. I've only seen the Type a or b things in Japanese games. Western games still seem to go with gender names, and I didn't think that's a kid unfriendly selection. Kids are familiar with boys vs "icky" girls lol. That's a bizarre one I can only assume is some weird misunderstanding in Japan about criteria.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Rich33 Yeah, I think the problem is how little adoption it will have. Even PS4 pro barely accounted for install base as a percent and that was half the price. I think third parties by and large other than ones that Sony is effectively sponsoring, will completely ignore it other than just letting the scaler do it's thing. Optimization is so bad these days that the metaphor demo, not exactly wukong graphically, is grinding 4090s into 40fps territory. That game should be running 200fps on a 4090, that's just nuts. Granted I'm running it on a potato Ally non extreme and it's fine with minimal settings, only 30fps and it should be more, but more than fine for that weak system. But yeah there's a case where "pro enhanced" will mean minimal settings and 60 or high settings and 30-50 assuming the release is similar to the demo. FFXIV STILL can't hit solid 60 without heavily relying on dlss on 4090s. Ask these games are flat out broken today. Pro can't fix it. Even 4090 can't fix it. At least there you can strip settings back more and install mods users make to fix the games broken states. Ugh.
Most likely the pro will have a lower install base than Xbox series, and we already see how little attention devs give to optimizing that. Pro, where they can reach the exact same customer without putting effort in, I can't see third parties doing much more than raising the render res, or uncapping fps.
I was surprised about the statistic of performance mode, because most games default to fidelity and require the user to switch to performance. If it's 3/4 performance it makes me think the casuals are truly gone and it's only a core enthusiast market remaining
Re: Black Myth: Wukong Sales Over 20 Million In a Month, Entering GOAT Territory
@themightyant totally agree, that's been my point exactly.
Granted it doesn't hurt that it actually is a good game, but if it was a different theme from a different country it'd be forgotten fast.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Rich33 A fair and reasoned decision. To many people DON'T do that careful weighing of considerations so that s well done decision. And yeah where PC REALLY becomes an instant cost savings is multi platform players. If you're doing both ps and xb at New pricing with at least one of them making a mid Gen you're up to almost $2k in consoles per generation vs a PC which quickly is cheaper.
But... When that pro disappoints on the 60fps front..... We're here for you for that parts shopping list
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@naruball to be fair the only reason Sony is making low margins with all that revenue is Jim and Herman's uncontrolled drunken spending on things like those gaas games and over budgeting their single player games. Poor management blowing all the cash isn't quite the same as an unprofitable business though or IS how most of the major company bankruptcies in recent memory have happened.
I always find it funny when people downplay "armchair CEOs" vs "these accomplished people" running companies (not Sony specifically just in general on the Internet), meanwhile plenty of that accomplished guys are proven to have had no idea what they were doing while burning billions of dollars and leaving a value less husk of what could easily have been a successful company when most among the common rabble knew what they were going wrong from the start and manage money quite a bit better. Sometimes the ivy leaguers should really just step aside and let Bob the janitor run the company a few years. Bob may just understand money and consumers than the too clever by half MBA trying to leverage 100 financial vehicles as they head toward a cliff.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Northern_munkey Not all companies. It used to be that most companies targeted making as much of a thing as possible, cheaper than the other guy and selling as much of it to as many people as possible. It's a new thing and sign of our retrograde "progress" as the middle class economy devolves into segmented peasants and nobles line we've gone back 300 years in only 10. But Sony.... They WERE always this way! I remember back before ps even existed I had a Sony outlet store around. Like most outlet stores they sold factory seconds, refurbs, etc. Unlike most outlets however, nothing was ever actually cheap! They'd sell refurbs and seconds at like $30 of new price. They'd sell TVs (back then it was those huge console crts with the built in cabinet, those big furniture pieces) for like $100 of new, but unlike retailers they didn't pay for delivery so by the time you arranged for transport it would cost more than just buying the thing new at a real store! They'd have big holiday sales like the rest of the mall but they'd hardly ever discount things and the stuff never ever moved lol. Then I'm the PlayStation era from 1-3 they had the whole side wall in ps games and consoles. Rarely refurb ps1. Frequent refurb ps2s. But they were beat up things at nearly full price. And the names games were always MSRP. You could get all of it cheaper at regular retailers. It was like the opposite of an outlet. You pay more for everything to get worse lol. It was a fun store, used to go and walk around all the time. I think I only ever bought maybe 5 things there 😂. Sony never changes.... We're going back to the late 80s, early 90s there. Cordless brick phones had a whole aisle. The ones with the telescoping 3ft metal antennas. Refurbs in white boxes for $10 off new.
@PuppetMaster My feeling is that the pro is a poor and expensive attempt to fix an industry problem with developers foisted into the customer rather than a nice to have upgrade. Consoles aren't PCs. When you buy consoles you know you're getting a trade-off of less power and less fancy graphics than the highest end PCs and console buyers are fine with that.
PlayStation is near a monopoly and is fixed hardware. Developers should easily be able to make their games target the PS5 and run flawlessly with graphics reduced from PC ideal detail. But what do developers do? Build games targeting the best of that PC visuals can offer, port or as is to console and however it runs, it runs. then in comes ps5 pro where for $700 you can pay for the industries failures. And on top of that it's not even a significant upgrade....
That's the crux of the problem. It's not that a PS5 pro is needed or even a decent upgrade. It's that it's an expensive bandaid the customer pays for to fix devs not doing their job and making PS5 games for PS5 that run properly on PS5.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Northern_munkey I think you hit a lot of the nail with "statement" and "to be seen with". It's true. With phones, what does the new model do that my 4 year old phone doesn't? Other than gaming better, nothing at all. Wi-Fi 7 but it's still so new routers don't really even exist yet other than a few extremely priced ones. It's a fashion accessory. And that's the market Sony is increasingly moving to reach. The electronics as a designer fashion brand market vs those seeking s particular solution. And that's rubbing some people including myself very very wrong. I don't wear designer. Dgaf who sees "who I'm wearing" I just want a product that does what I want it to the way I want it do and doesn't try to overcharge me for it. THIS product doesn't fit that bill.
Funny thing is, if I trusted Sony more I wouldn't have built my PC. It was in response to Xbox faffing about and being a poor choice to keep dumping money into, and also an eye towards better VR. But I originally still didn't want to deal with that initial cost or hassle myself. Considered briefly getting a pro at whatever the price would be and going pure pony from now on. Then realized how Sony would be reacting and started thinking about how they'd price the pro and realized, nope I need to get out and spend my souls before the boss battle with hulst. I kept saying here pro would be 750 and people mocked my that there's no way it'll be that price lol.
So it's a joint venture of Sony doing things like this and Xbox doing.... Whatever they're doing, that I ended up back in PC.
Funny thing is I built that rig and keep playing on my cheap non extreme z1 Ally 😂
That vr kit, I'm hoping finances allow. It's pricey, it was my plan, I'm not certain finances will allow or not as it's not even up for preorder yet, have a reservation in line, but might but be out until December or later. Hopefully funds hold up (and recover from the PC build and quest setup!. ) That and your racing rig combined would the the stuff of legend though! Shame this site doesn't have a PM feature, I think we'd have some OT conversation in common.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Ajbr8687 Yes I agree it's easier for laymen, and absolutely the vendor lock is a huge issue, and if you're trapped you're trapped. I'm my case that's part of what prompted me to get out while the trahectory of console is ugly because the longer you stay in it the deeper that hole. Between Xbox and PS I definitely have that much in their libraries and had to commit to rebuying anything I still needed to play. So I definitely agree with all that.
That said while vendor lock is a real problem, and for the laymen the complexity is a problem, for most people that are enthusiast enough to be here on this site, most are a good deal more knowledge than laymen, and those interested that may not know have a lot of us here that can help them, too. Joe Casual? No, they're not going the PC route but enthusiasts on this site have a clue and a lot of people willing to help.
Re the pricing, yes, for the initial jump. But it's about that 10-20 year cost of ownership for an enthusiast gamer. Ie looking at what ps6 might bring, the vendor lock issue, is about figuring out if it's a better long term path and the sooner the jump off point the better.
For the hopelessly digitally locked, for the total technophobe that just wants convenience above all, sure it's a realistic option. But there's a lot of people looking over the fence at this point, and should be, but avoid it due to oft repeated funny ideas of PCs. Then there's people like HonestHick who I highly recommend sticking with console to. I know him well enough to know PC isn't for him. He's an apple guy. They round the corners so their customers can't hurt themselves.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Ajbr8687 No, I'm well aware of that. But the hyperbole around this "amazing" console is all wrong in the narrative. If people want to pay extreme premium for convenience fine. But that's what the discussion, and the marketing, should be. Paying high premium for convenience, because great value, or exceptionally good performance is simply not what's on offer.
There are definitely people who I would not recommend PC gaming to for sure. Though I think most people in the target market for the pro really may be better served by it.
But what most of the PC discussion has been is just how much misinformation there is about PC. The cost value over time is always the big one, but the themes of "having to spend hours configuring games", "constant driver updates", "but I want to play on a TV" etc, there's a lot of misinformation and people remembering how it was decades ago that don't know it's pretty much plug and play these days. It's not about convincing people that just want to pay more for convenience they shouldn't. It's about showing people that might be on the fence or might really end up prefer PC that some of the ideas they have that stop them are wrong or outdated.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@xxdavidxcx87 I am comparing one PC vs multiple consoles, yes, because that's the proposition here. One generation, for enthusiasts is now $1200. That's in 4 years. A 1200 PC can go for a lot longer than that and the cost of the next upgrade would be less than the ps6.
That's great you're excited. why you'd be excited when it sounds like you already have something better I can't quite comprehend, but yay? Why you're trying to downplay the cost benefits over the long term of an ecosystem you already participate and should know about I also can't comprehend. And no the pro is not not going to be a better way to play any game other than exclusives that don't make it to PC than the rig I built in advance of the pro in part because I correctly anticipated exactly what the pro would be and for how much and realized console was now a money sink worse than PC which I thought I'd got out of a decade and a half ago.
Re: Underperforming XDefiant Pours More Misery on Embattled Publisher Ubisoft
Once Concord stole its player base it was all over.
Re: Scalpers Want $10k to Try to Buy You a 30th Anniversary PS5 Pro
@NeonMullet Haha yeah, I can't think of anything about the modern times that doesn't really suck. The one good thing about the Internet though is at least the people you're not near are still accessible.
Though I never had social gaming as I kid. I was Nintendo and everyone else was Sega.... At tht height of the console wars is like crossing into gang territory wearing the wrong colors lol. I had a Genesis too, but they only cared about the sports games anyway . Maybe things haven't changed that much 😆
Envious about the flip phone off the grid life though. No way I could pull it off..... Plus no pcvr . But I'm envious. I just want to rewind time...
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@xxdavidxcx87 Once we start comparing selling components (which you can do with PC components as well) and skipping generations (which most do on PC as well) we're really running off realistic comparisons.
While the scenarios exist, the main customer this targets is early adopter enthusiasts. The same type that bought a PS5 at launch and is upgrading. That is the primary target market. Similarly a new GPU is largely targeting consumers that already have a rig to put it in. Obviously either way the first time buyer has an upfront cost to factor in which is there the PS5 pro looks cheaper. But over the long haul in the ecosystem it isn't necessarily the cheaper route.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@Northern_munkey most people spend $200-400 on a phone and these days this phones are more than enough. Even as someone who always bought flagship phones in the past, myself, because I live on my phone and always needed the enhancement it offered, my current phone honestly still holds up to everything I need at over 4 years old and other than the battery eventually failing I don't see anything on the market that does anything I don't already have, I'd probably rebuy the same phone refurbished for a song when the battery failed. Phones plateaued and other than phone gamers that need to run the latest GPU or emulators on their phone, or the hardcore desktop replacement phone users, there's kind of no point to the expensive phones anymore other than to be expensive for people that feel like expensive makes it better (see the people spending $20k on audio gear that's objectively worse then stuff a fraction of the price)
There's also the fact that a lot of phone purchases are heavily used for work/business use, ie, it's used to MAKE money which sets it value differently than an entertainment device.
My PC is a bad example 😂 yeah it was pricy but it's not at all a PC I'd be recommending to the average console gamer looking at PC. I had very specific requirements for a specialized vr rig that's also somewhat futureproof. The thing will crush a ps6 like it's a twig. But I'd never have built that for pancake gaming. It's very very overkill. But barely acceptable for vr and where me headset will be in a few years.
You're in the same boat with the SIM racing. You're THE customer my intended vr setup is for! We need to merge systems, my VR rig and your cockpit 😂. Can relate well.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@UltimateOtaku91 @Northern_munkey I disagree with the mobile phone comparison. Most people do not spend that on a phone. But even for those that do were talking about a device that life literally revolves around. It's people's communication, scheduling, task management, navigation, music, browsing, video, even gaming device. Home and work revolve around it. It's a necessary tool to function. Just because people assign that value to that device doesn't mean a device that offers slightly better gfx than a normal PS5 gets the same weight. And for a large segment of the market that would and overlaps the flagship phone market, that segment spends on PC instead. It's a really odd product that doesn't really serve much of a market other than just making sure to, as you UK folks would say, "Hoover up" any money laying on the table from a niche of a niche.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@xxdavidxcx87 No, nobody would suggest a worthwhile PC is $700 out of the box. What I would suggest is that a worthwhile PC that's much better than pro is similar in cost to the PS5 digital + PS5 pro upgrade path even before you get to cheaper games and no subscriptions. And that over the course of PS5, PS5 pro, and PS6 and/or also getting an Xbox for any games that don't go to ps, it can be both far cheaper and better, minus those few ps games that may not get to PC.
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
@GreatAuk Haha yeah, I love "big screen" but I'm near sighed enough that reading text on the big screen just isn't big enough lol. Monitor is better then glasses darinit. But I think I've got it solved. Nice high ppd (no screen door) moled or qled pcvr headset even for 2d in big screen mode, costs more than a giant OLED TV, but jumbo screen at a distance I can read! Hopefully!
Haha yeah I had PS3 and Wii u on the projector for a while though. That was awesome...
Gotta say though I do love my little monitor. Only 60fps but beautiful 4k hdr, and at 27" it's nearly retina . I have it on an arm so I just pull it up to the couch 😂
Re: Fans Appear to Be Coming Around to PS5 Pro
That's kinda a lot of spin here, how much is Sony paying for that kind of spin? About a little over half the population of one of the preeminent ultra hardcore loyal brand dedicated PS fansites has any interest in the new PlayStation.
If they can barely get half of the most fanatical core, this things sales crater in months.
Imagine if only half of push square had any interest in ps6.
@Al3 Yup. "bUt A pC iSn'T $700!"
@Jireland92 A big problem is in the new economy you either make 1980s wages and can afford nothing or you make 6 figures and can afford everything twice without thinking about it. It's more like Rome, patrician's and plebians then the middle class driven market we grew up in. More and more all products are made for the 6 figure patrician's. It's not for the plebeians. You have your water and bread and that's all you need.
Though there's always the value sentiment, this us pc folks. It costs more up front but In the long term may be cheaper and you're not as required to always be current. There's a fair chance the next batch of $300 gpus is near the pro.
@GreatAuk "Just the equivalent graphics card is about $600.".
500, but that comes with an even better scaler, and more raw grunt. And for everyone that has a pc they put it in already it's $200 less, better, and very likely already has a MUCH better CPU even if it's an old one. Initial cost is definitely higher but then the upgrades and up comparatively cheaper and better. It's why I don't believe in these mid Gen console cycles and upgrades. It borrowed the model of PC but without the inherent savings of upgrades. It's only cheaper for first time buyers.
Rather than sell a 700 console they should have licensing require all games run at stable 60fps with minimum resolution targets and enforce that rule on base PS5. Because guess that? Devs can do it. They just don't want to. So they rely on brute force. Force targets in them and magically games will be made to perform well on the hardware.
Edit: why do people keep talking about gaming on monitors vs TVs. HDMI exists. You just plug it into your TV. It's not the dvi and dsub days anymore. Most PC gamers play on monitors simply because they prefer to, they play games like wow that benefit desk play, or because they value ultra high refresh that gaming monitors have more often than TVs. I happen to prefer monitors and have all my consoles on monitors. Too darned near sighted to play on the TV lol. But yes pc has been TV friendly for ages now. And you don't HAVE to fiddle with settings to get more fps, it's just an option that you don't have on consoles that many want to have. Out of the box it's just like console. It just unlocks a bunch of extra options on top of that.
Re: PS Store Confirms Lots More PS5 Pro Enhanced Games with New Tag
@OldGamer999 Why do we need PSSR? Because Sony is obsessed with making their own proprietary version of whatever exists for more money and declares it better, that's why.
That true but also snarky. There's three main scaling technologies. DLSS for Nvidia gpus (and most likely switch 2 as it's an Nvidia GPU), FSR for AMD GPUs (and both consoles), and XeSS for the new Intel GPUs still very young.
Of the 3, AMD is the worst one which is what both consoles have. PSSR is Sonys proprietary attempt at beating the AMD one the SoC comes with.
Here's the thing though Sony is new at this, AMD has been doing it a while and it's a much bigger AI knowledge base. This first draft is going to have problems the pro is an early access release, and they're showing select games for a reason.
Second, FSR gets a bad rep, on PC because it's directly compared to dlss for roughly the same price but worse. And second because the consoles are not using it properly. The consoles are trying to use it to upscale from absurdly low resolutions. These consoles should not be sold as 4k machines. No PC GPU at this power never is considered a 4k GPU. These are 1400p machines and that's precisely what they should be sold as. Scaling from 1080p to 4k is madness.
The other problem is that there are multiple output modes to FSR and DLSS. The consoles appear to be using the performance mode which is horrible, nobody ever should use it, and FSR in Ultra Quality mode is waaaaaaay better than what we're seeing on the consoles. It's not smeared Vaseline like the performance mode on consoles, it's biggest problem is the opposite actually. It over sharpened and can develop moire patterns in complex moving textures. But still looks much better than the consoles.
So why did Sony need their own? Because they're Sony. They already had a decent scaler from AMD for free in the APU they underutilized in the base console and the pro could have done for free at $200 less. But instead customers have to pay for Sony R&D to play with building their own AI models and designing custom silicon for 4x the money AMD can do it at scale to run it on.
But hey, premium prestige and all that. And sometimes it'll even be the better option!
Edit: and do you honestly think PlayStation is the reason they want to build their own AI models and silicon? F no. They want PlayStation customers to fund the r&d they're going to use to build the AI they'll use for medical imaging, cinema and broadcast products, automotive, and automation business tools. That's where the money really is.
Re: PS Store Confirms Lots More PS5 Pro Enhanced Games with New Tag
@OldGamer999 The other thing in line with what you said that amazes me with how bad optimization is these days, these new games...ffxvi, metaphor, mhwilds, etc. These things are choking $3k+ 4090 rigs. The games are so unoptimized these days you can't even BUY enough brute force, it doesn't exist at all, it's not even manufactured yet. It had to suck on dev rigs too. And the 7800XT equivalent pro is going to be 60fps fidelity? Fat chance.. rebirth was exclusively made only for the PS5. And they're proudly shouting how the new hardware makes it not suck. It was made EXCLUSIVELY for the base ps5. If it sucks on there, that isn't a hardware issue.
Re: Random: Xbox Boss Complains About X Button After Being Handed PS5 Pad
@Arnna They're too similar but they have a ton of small differences that really add up to making then pretty different to use. Particularly for digital customers but that's most customers for both now. PS5 tends to feel dated and limited in terms of digital library management and features. But none of it is stuff that sells on a marketing brochure. It's just stuff if you own both you realize what works for your expectations better for different things. It's really a good platform that's been poorly marketed and lacks keynote feature that makes the masses take interest. So does PS5 really, but it already has the brand recognition so it wins every time.
Re: Random: Xbox Boss Complains About X Button After Being Handed PS5 Pad
@smoreon all good points. I think back then they didn't think overly much about the labels, it was just randomly assigned, because they were matching arcade cabinets which at the time had game specific labels on the buttons. Though I still will never understand them making out backward. Sega was cheeky though with abxy vs bayx... Why nut abcd? The Genesis/MD controller was abc. I think it was a blatant console wars shot there
Re: PS Store Confirms Lots More PS5 Pro Enhanced Games with New Tag
Yeah I've felt for a long time that gaming was ruined by 2 things, one was Nvidia coopting the gaming industry to refocus it from making games instead to being a tech demo for the latest silicon's power simply to fund and develop the silicon for other more profitable things later. Nvidia more or less admits this. Jensen says they were "never a graphics company what was just a strategic thing".
The other is the younger waves of devs being seemingly technophiles and vain, indulgent artists who are only interested in using all the latest toys to replicate movies in real time rendering to stroke their own egos and curiosity and keep their "skills up to date".
The purpose of a modern video game isn't to be fun. It's to demonstrate what the latest silicon is capable of doing better than the old one.
Re: Random: Xbox Boss Complains About X Button After Being Handed PS5 Pad
@smoreon Lol true though. they of course did it to continue the NES positions for A and B, but I do recall B before A seemed stupid to me even on the NES!
@Wiceheid It was actually Sega, not Microsoft that came up with that layout. It's the Dreamcast controller layout. Microsoft just continued with the Sega design.
Re: Date the Girls from Dead or Alive in Venus Vacation Prism for PS5, PS4
@HarmanSmith Yoko Taro will definitely be interested in squeezing something with this game.
Re: Date the Girls from Dead or Alive in Venus Vacation Prism for PS5, PS4
Will there be a Nier Automata crossover?
Re: PS Store Confirms Lots More PS5 Pro Enhanced Games with New Tag
@OldGamer999 I think we talked about it before, but, yes, the ENTIRE upgrade here is simply the upscaler. That's it. It's a $700 upscaler to do a better job making 1080p look 4k. It has that "45%" GPU bump, but at 4k resolutions, when you're not already at 4k resolutions, 45% is barely anything. 100% isn't really enough. That minor bump helps smooth out some frame dips if they were already there, may help some extra shadow detail or AO get enabled or something like that here and there, but the purchase price is for the scaler and the extra 1TB. You're not doing "true" 4k at that performance. There are only 3 "true" 4k GPUs for current games in existence: 4080 ($1k), 4090 ($1.6k), 7900XTX ($1k.) That's it. Cards below that can do 4k of course, but they're really considered 1400p cards, that's their real sweetspot for performance/visuals on average. Pro falls into that. The problem is base PS5 was more of a "1080p card" but could do 1400p PS4 games. But, like with Pro, 4070's even 4060's can do pretty decent results to 4k upscaled and frame gen. But if you're looking for "real" 4k, and don't want to break out that wallet in those extremes, you're going to be waiting a very long time on consoles. I strongly doubt the PS6 will really be that either. The raw dies for that just cost far too much, with Nvidia using their datacenter AI chips to do it, and AMD kind of struggling (and bowing out of!!) that finish line. And they're doing PS6....
It's why some of us haven't been pleased with the pro for the price. It's actually less than a 4070 for more total money than a 4070 (because it's the whole system.)
But obviously if your library is all on PS, it's also the best you can get, too. It's why you hear a lot of us talking about the PC switch. The raw initial price doesn't look great, but it's also a question of what will it look next time, and the time after that. For anyone that MIGHT consider moving their library, the later you move it the worse it gets.
Meanwhile in game optimization land, the Metaphor Refantazio demo (not exactly a graphical powerhouse) is crippling 4090's on high settings down to the 40fps's with massive drops. Meanwhile I'm running it on my non-extreme Z1 ally on low settings just fine. And it's an Nvidia sponsored title. ??? (Yes, that's the demo which is to say beta/preview build so it may get much better but it launches in a week or two.)
Re: PS Store Confirms Lots More PS5 Pro Enhanced Games with New Tag
Don't forget Rockstar + now proudly wears the PS5 Pro Enhanced banner now, too, lol. Apparently it doesn't take very much to get that banner....
Re: Random: Xbox Boss Complains About X Button After Being Handed PS5 Pad
I'm not sure which company I want to be mad at. Nintendo's layout is the OG. Sony copied the OG...but them mirrored it everywhere but Japan (before finally mirroring it in Japan too now), Sega just went with the mirror. And then Xbox kind of inherited Sega. Nintendo's the strange one now, but only because everyone made their copies different from Nintendo's on purpose probably so they didn't get sued by Nintendo lol.
@GamingFan4Lyf @eltomo Yakuza launched first on PS, so some might say the PS layout is the "true" layout. But it's a Sega game that was originally meant for the Dreamcast, so I'd say the Xbox/Sega layout is the true one.
Re: With Timing Being Everything, French Union Calls on Ubisoft Workers to Strike
@PSme But this situation calls for the Guillemotine......
.... I'll get my coat...
Re: Black Myth: Wukong Sales Over 20 Million In a Month, Entering GOAT Territory
@themightyant and then they fired all the top talent and replaced them with interns that cost as much as top talent elsewhere and then trained them be remaking existing games and then charged customers to make back the loss. Meanwhile Game Science starts up in the middle of nowhere and sells them under the table...... Just sayin'......
The glory days of interesting and experimental games that didn't cost 300m to make didn't come from hubs of "top talent", it came from a few people with an idea and a garage and Japanese modest pay scales. Following Hollywood and the "top talent" route is the whole problem. And it's led to the same creative vacuum in both industries. Plus Taylor Swift
Re: Newly Signed Law May Restrict Sony's Use of Terms Like 'Buy' or 'Purchase' for Digital Games
Governments love to make grand stands on issues that affect the public by making laws that make corporations use different words to do exactly what they already do. If this law isn't about changing the policy of licenses and ownership and is about changing verbiage it's either a toothless charade by a politician looking for votes or is, especially coming from California where most of the licensing companies are located from film to music to games, is probably a law written by and pushed by the licensing companies themselves to reduce their own legal burden over ownership suits while forcing their peers too have to look bad with them all at once.
Thank you for your license activation!
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Thank you for your license activation!
Thank you for your license activation!