Horizon Forbidden West Built from the 'Ground Up' for PS5

I could get those games on PS4 but with quicker load times, better frame rate and even more gorgeous looking I think it's definitely a PS5 purchase. Not to mention the dual sense features and 3D audio.

Not really liking the way Sony are letting out information regarding ps5/ps5 games.

The only people confused over this seem to be the attack heavy fanboys who criticised Microsoft.
It's simple, all games are made on PC anyway and then scaled to the platform during porting. The PC gaming market doesn't have games "held back" by old machines. The PS5 is essentially the recommended spec and the PS4 is the minimum spec. The amount of times I had to explain this to Sony fans criticising Microsoft means hopefully now Sony are doing the same they'll finally understand that it really isn't a big deal.

It'll be interesting to see how different they are then

I understand why they’re doing it on PS4, the sheer amount of people with one means more money. On the other hand Horizon 2 as a PS5 only title would be a system seller for sure.

I don’t believe it’s built from the ground up on PS5, it makes no sense, they’ll have known about putting it on PS4 for a long time, which makes them making it appear as a PS5 only title that much worse.

If you believe a word Jim Ryan says now then your dumber then you look!

They were numerous rumors that the Horizon: Forbidden West and Miles Morales were planned for PS4 first and then development shifted to PS5 as well. I can definitely see an advantage in the PS5 versions such as instant load times, better textures/resolution/framerates, effects, draw distances, ray tracing, audio and perhaps character models. That’s a lot of advantage to justify an upgrade to the latest hardware although the core gameplay is obviously designed with last gen in mind.

Can’t wait for Digital Foundry analysis of Miles Morales between the PS4 and PS5 versions.

@get2sammyb yeah stuff like the cloud simulation and the water rippling off that machine, I don't see PS4 matching those effects. Not to mention the Decima engine was already capable of changing the landscape before your eyes on Death Stranding

I think we need to see the real gameplay differences for Sony to earn any respect here to be honest. Oh and show a teardown of the machine and how loud it is and show the UI too whilst they are at it!

There's not going to be a vast difference in actual gameplay, because I've not seen anything on PS5 which couldn't be done on PS4, minus some snazzy effects. Even Ratchet & Clank would most likely work on PS4, albeit with some loading screens.

They were originally planning to have co-op in the original Horizon, but dropped it. I'm guessing "built from the ground up for PS5" means features like co-op will exist there, but be stripped from the PS4 version.

Not sure what the issue is here. The same cross gen rollout was done between the PS3 and PS4. MGS5 and tombraider were available on both systems as they both came out during a 12 month cross over period.

Makes sense as there are 100 million PS4’s in circulation, so a far larger market than what the PS5 market will be in 2021.

There will be a cut off point where new games will be ps5 only but that won’t be until late 2021.

Of course . It's a bit like xbox bragging of 'optimized for'. Well sure
The way I understand it is its not designed specifically for ps5 though. That's a big difference.

Doubt there be much differences. Although I don't believe that's been built from the ground up.e.g when destiny came out in ps3 then ps4 the differences where with the touch pad and options button . I imagine the game been built for pc spec and then downgraded to work on ps4/ps5 considering horizon zero dawncame out on pc recently

You've got your price and release date for PS5 now. Stop moaning you miserable sods.

Love you all.

I see it like, say, The Witcher 3. That was totally targeted at decent PCs. On my modest PC it an at 1080p 50-60fps on close to max settings and still looks glorious today. Xbox 1 got 20-30fps on medium settings at 900p.

Despite all that, and this is where the comparison to Forbidden West on PS4 comes in, they still got it working on the Switch. If you play the Switch version, you're playing a greatly diminished version of the game, basically the PC version on minimum settings, 720p resolution docked - and would regularly drop below that - or 540p handheld. Even then it spent most of its time at around 22fps, capping at 30.

Clearly the game wasn't built at all for Switch but it did technically run on it. A game actually made for the Switch, Mario Odyssey, is a solid 60fps at 720p to 900p.

Or RE1 being obviously made for PS1 but here it is, kinda terrible but impressive all the same, on GBC.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O6LX_FXFsiM

@Arugula maybe im too soft but im willing to cut all 3 platform holders slack this year. Sony may have 25 years experience. But they havent had to launch a console during a global pandemic. A big part of the slow communication will be because Sony dont want to over promise and under deliver.

Have they made mistakes? Absolutely. But im sure they are doing their best in a bad situation, like all of us right now

I would also add this Demon's Souls fiasco: "also no pc and PS4 on later date"

@get2sammyb my guess is like Spider-Man it was meant to be a launch title (and it may still be coming on Q1 2021) so they made a lesser version for PS4, mostly with the same engine and tech as HZD, in other words just a huge expansion.
The PS5 version will have all the bells and whistles technology wise. I don’t necessarily like the way it’s being communicated but is what I hope they’re trying to say.
The PS5 version is the real game, the PS4 version is just a huge DLC

@JapaneseSonic To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Sony announced a PS4 version of Ratchet & Clank, GT7, etc. at the next PS5 event.

Im not really very fond of Jim Ryan after this week, I think he will harm Sonys image more than do it good.

I think they need someone more open minded and more "gamer focused" to be guided a bit better, this guy just seems like a man in a suit whose played PacMan a few times making decisions based on past success while ignoring the present and the future.

Is it just me or does Jim Ryan seem like a complete BS artist? Nearly everything generally that comes out of his mouth is either misleading or patently bull.

Genuinely feel that with him at the helm the arrogant Sony is back.

@solocapers I kinda miss Andrew House and Shaun Layden...

I wish Sony would just be honest. Sonys studios are making great games but the Sony executives just need to be more transparent!

@pip_muzz someone with sense

Yes, this is a PR problem. PR is taking advantage of the confusion around their own wording by “assuring” people that the graphics will be better. But this is not about graphics. It’s about the core game design which in 2020 is limited by CPU, memory, and disk — not the GPU. I am upset that Horizon FW is on PS4 because it means the level design, physics, AI, and gameplay mechanics are limited to what also works on a 2013 design. It was .. less surprising for Spiderman MM, but the June messaging on Horizon was that it was PS5 only and people started imagining flying through the levels, better physics, etc. Now that seems unlikely. It’s weird cause Sony can read gamer concerns — all they have to do is send out a tweet or a blog post to clarify — but instead we get silence. Their current PR strategy is eroding trust. Silence might work when they have an E3 blowout, it is not working during a global pandemic.

They should get Andrew house back to run the PS business...

@pip_muzz Well said. I follow Guerrilla on FB and they look excited to be running updates for different PC builds for HZD. Evidently this is a studio that wants to showcase their talent on as many platforms as possible, and would be sad to lock out the 100M+ PS4 base. I don't know how hard it is to understand these games are capable of running on PS4 albeit with long load times etc. Perhaps it was even ALL LIES these games couldn't run on PS4 to start with just so you go get a PS5, maybe they finally decided to be honest seeing as cost of making games is getting high and Guerrilla can take all the sales they can get.

@JapaneseSonic It could be that going through portals turn out to be hidden loading screens and it just takes longer on PS4.

He's lying to us.

They probably look about the same but to make the PS5 version look impressive they lower the quality of the PS4 with less texture and more

@pip_muzz that's true to a point. Specs like resolution and visual effects can be easily scaled to different hardware. NPC density and so on can also be adjusted relatively easily in most cases (GTA V on PS3 vs PS4 a good example of this, although less feasible in every game). But core gameplay or level design is not so easily scaled without essentially designing 2 games, and CPU limitations and the need to hide loading points affect the sorts of immediate gameplay and level layouts that are possible. Multiplat games need to reach a wide audience and so won't exclude consoles with a large user base, and that means even high-end PC players are playing games with levels etc designed to work on slower machines.

I never really expected either HZD2 or Miles to really push the boat out into what's possible in the next-gen (too early) but the hope is that we will see games that simply can't be scaled back easily to older consoles (no matter how much visual effects can be turned down).

Sony: "We believe in generations"

a few weeks later

Sony: "Except we don't."

I just hope the game will have flying mount, I'm okay if it's exclusive to ps5 if ps4 hdd too slow to stream horizon fw world.

I think when executives use the words “built from the ground up” they simply mean that the developers are aware but it will be released on the platform during development. For example you could say that death stranding was built from the ground up for PC because the developer was aware that it will be released on PC during development. Where is Horizon zero dawn was not as they had no intention of releasing it on PC during development.

Give him the heads of both PlayStation and Xbox have used it in the same way to describe cross gen games. I suspect their usage is correct. But since the layman seems to misinterpretation think they’re lying they should probably stop using that form of words.

I totally believe it was built for the PS5.

I question how radically different the games on PS5 will be from the PS4 aside from load times, FPS and Picture fidelity if they can get this to run on previous hardware.

Andrew house.shawn layden.and my boy jack Trenton i miss them.but its crazy that out of nowhere those games are coming to ps4 also.word up son

I've been rewatching the ratchet and clank rift apart gameplay trailer. Why couldn't this be done on ps4?? Nothing special. The whole rift thing looks to be set pieces, like the bridge scene where the dinosaur falls through. Can you cross the bridge by any other means or do you have to use the rift, to establish crossing the bridge? If so, set piece.
Like when the building's and fire and smoke and the pandemonium, in cod mw single player game, doesn't translate to multiplayer. Set pieces.
If im able to play ratchet and clank, entirely in the dinosaur universe, or the future universe, and switch between the two, with noticeable differences in the worlds, then I'd be impressed.
I mean hell, bioshock infinite had rifts and set pieces. Going from Columbia to rapture, etc.

@God_of_Nowt
'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

All the games that are cross gen you can tell. The obvious comparison is Demon Souls and Spiderman Miles Morales. Demon Souls looks miles ahead of Spiderman. I get it with PS5 you have the SSD yada yada yada, but the core game in general looks like the 2018 Spiderman.

@God_of_Nowt but when you say stuff like this, it blows holes in everyone's arguement, that the series s will hold back nextgen. Cause all you're doing is scaling down.
Like how spiderman mm was built for ps5, but scaled down for ps4. That's losing stuff, generationally, at least. While the scaling down from x, to s, won't lose any nextgen functions, just graphics.

I'm kinda imagining something a bit like the differences between the PC and PS2 versions of the original Mafia game. That game needed a reasonably beefy PC to run at high settings, and the PS2 obviously couldn't keep up with that, especially running off a CD with no installation and limited RAM, so as a result the PS2 version was butchered. Low resolution textures, low poly models, low frame rates, and to top it all off levels were cut up into smaller sections with long loading screens between, to the point where you'd get loading screens going over a bridge on the city.

It played on PS2, you could play through the full story on PS2, but it wasn't anywhere near as satisfying an experience, not just because of graphical fidelity and framerate issues, bit also because you'd be in the middle of a car chase and get a loading screen which completely takes breaks your concentration and takes you out of the action.

Do I expect the differences to be as stark? Probably not, but you'll notice them playing on the previous gen.

I don’t believe it, they will be exact same game but the PS5 version will be prettier with faster load times. The PS4 will hold it back.

One quick example. Guerrilla stated years ago that Horizon didn’t have flying mounts due to the PS4 limitations and I see that effecting Horizon 2 on PS5.

"Built from the ground up for PS5" =/= "Also built to run on PS4"

@God_of_Nowt But didn't you just make the argument that R&C couldn't run on PS4 without essentially being a different game? If hypothetically R&C was also on PS4, and it was the same game on both consoles, it would have held back what it could have been on PS5 alone by your own argument.

That makes literally no sense lol

@God_of_Nowt I understand what you're saying, but what you're saying is not what "built from the ground up for PS5" means. R&C fits the description. Horizon FW does not.

If what @OmegaStriver said is correct, that is a perfect example of how HFW is not being "built from the ground up for PS5"

If a dev thinks, "I could make "x" happen on PS5, but not on PS4, and the game must release on both systems, therefore I can't put "x" into the game," that game is not being built for PS5

Do they really need more exclusives to create more demand for the system right now? Demand seems too high already. If many of the big hitters are cross gen in the first year, they won't suffer in sales being on a platform with a smaller install base. Meanwhile PS4 owners still get some support instead of being abandoned entirely because there's a shiny new thing AND they get a free upgrade path when they finally do put down for a PS5. Year two titles won't be cross gen, and then sales will ramp up from there. This is a really smart strategy to ease into the generation and spread out conversions from PS4 in a manageable way. Early gen games rarely take full advantage of the hardware anyway, and these cross gen games likely began life in PS4 development anyway.

To be fair, they do still believe in generations when Demon’s Souls and Destruction All Stars are 100% developed for the PS5 at launch, and so is Ratchet & Clank which is available shortly after launch.

There are just less full PS5 exclusives than originally thought.

I do feel it was misleading in the way Miles Morales and Horizon II were portrayed as next-gen only during the June event. But having those few titles as cross-gen does not automatically make the “we believe in generations” untrue when they are still providing multiple titles that are exclusive to next-gen at launch.

clearly going to be ported down to ps4 standards.

slow news day?!

@God_of_Nowt "I don't find issue with cross gen games from a consumer or developer side so much as I take issue with Microsoft and Sony not explaining things to the consumer with transparency."

Yes. Agreed.

And there speaketh a man who has never developed a game in his life. Unless they are two totally separate development tracks that use the same design document / brief to develop separate interpretations of the same document I call utter BS. You develop for the lowest common denominator and then upscale. Sure their might be more foliage etc. on the PS5 version of a game, but fundamentally the framework underneath it all will be a PS4 game with extra bits bolted on. Games are a synergy between hardware and software, and sure, maybe the most important factor is skill of developers to produce the tools, compilers etc. etc. but that is always in service of extracting the maximum computational limit out of any said hardware, but in this instance with the PS5 much of that computational extraction will be in service of things that don't serve the core underlying framework, because to do so would mean the game couldn't run on the PS4. I can see things like particle effects, or fluid dynamics being far more advanced on the PS5, maybe not even being present on the PS4, but is that how the team would have deployed those computational resources had they not had to worry about getting the game running on PS4? I can't say for certain, I just can't, but the contrary argument is even harder for me to make.

@NoxAeturnus at this point the demand they want to generate is surely developers looking at new projects. If I think that by the time my game is complete 90% of my audience will have a PS5, do I build exclusively for that platform, with all the logistical benefits that building for a single platform gives, and potentially release 6 months earlier before porting to other platforms if there's demand ? Maybe. And if they do that's more platform licensing fees for Sony.

@God_of_Nowt the initial PS5 Dev kits used RDNA 1 and multiple M2. SSD's to simulate the bandwidth they hoped they could achieve, but of course it didn't have the priority levels or the encoding / decoding capabilities of the I/O. I really don't think we'll see teams start to fully exploit that until maybe late 2022. Sure much of it will be "blind" so to speak, but as teams learn what compiles well, or how to make things that compile well and just learn to trust the I/O and lean on it more we won't see the best of the PS5. It's the same with the XSX|S as well. The point at which we leave last gen behind depends on how rapidly the sales cross over occurs. The moment they sell more on "next-gen" is the moment publishers start to see diminishing returns on current-gen development as an unnecessary sunk cost. If analysts in Japan are right that could take 18 months.

@God_of_Nowt I'd imagine that's a disparity between image/audio assets and code a @SirAngry is taking about the latter while you discuss the former.

Higher quality images, audio, video can be algorithmically downscaled fairly easily, compared to the code, for which it's much better to write it as efficiently as possible while adding in features for more powerful platform targets.

@God_of_Nowt as a coder / software developer I have a very different perspective to the artists in the teams I work with. You guys develop high poly meshes and downscale / develop different LoDs based on different specification / settings. Whereas for me, developing physics or AI I have to ensure what I do runs on the lowest common denominator, it might be that we target a performance level above base specs, but fundamentally what we hack out mustn't fundamentally alter the experience of what the game is. I've said on here many times that not everything in a game scales in a linear way, pixels obviously do, as to frames to an extent, but physics doesn't, and often you can find yourself in a situation where a game on consoles emulates the physics you actually wanted to deploy because they can't do it the way God intended . But the framework quite often of a game is built around the limitations of specific hardware, asset streaming being a key example this time. I can't design a level to take full advantage of SSD draw times and then shoehorn that onto the PS4 or X1, I'd have loading screens every few seconds. So I put a wall here, a cliff face there, a corridor here an elevator journey there, whereas were I taking full advantage of the next-gen consoles that wouldn"t be necessary.

@theheadofabroom they're a typical artist, only thinking about their meshes and maps and not the real heroes who get their pretty assets on screen... I'm joking @God_of_Nowt, but our competing perspectives are indeed the tension at the heart of development. You guys get to dream big, but often your creations are downscaled away from what the artist intended. Whereas on my side of things we're problem solvers attempting to hide technical limitations and use what resources are at our disposal as best we can. Dreaming isn't something we get to do much of to be honest. lol. We tend to be the miserable gits telling designers and artists they can't do this or that... and then giving up and trying to find ways of bodging things together. But the next-gen consoles are capable of things you just couldn't figure work arounds for on current systems, like rendering two worlds at once and flipping between them, or vistas and draw distance / physics / AI / all sorts of things we just can't billboard away. We could reduce numbers of onscreen AI, but if in one version of a game you're fighting 12 enemies and in another version you're fighting 6, you are having a fundamentally different experience... is it even the same game?

Surely PS5 version will be limited on how many things are on screen and how big the world will be due to PS4 ageing hardware?

PS5 version will load faster and have prettier graphics, 3D audio and haptic feedback additions.

@God_of_Nowt @SirAngry having worked on the code stuff and been called on to make web stuff look pretty, I can appreciate both sides of things with completely different sets of challenges. I spent a lot of my time on the SDET side of things which brings yet another set of horrible challenges and I miss it all!

I'd still much rather spend my time optimising an inefficient algorithm than trying to make something look nice, because that's just how my brain works.

As an example, I often feel really sad we can't get what artists do on screen, or put level designers visions on screen. Often software engineers are wracked with guilt that we can't actually get creatives visions on screen. Honestly? It's artists and designers that push us to develop better tools and hardware to realise what you guys want. I think without that tension and drive to iterate we just wouldn't be where we are.

Allows me to not buy a PS5 for a really long time, actually.

@God_of_Nowt thing is we don't like sending those messages. As I said, we're problem solvers, and every time we send those messages we're essentially admitting defeat and saying "you've given us a problem to solve that we can't" and no one likes to admit they're not good enough. lol. Story of my life really. This generation still has limits, I kind of laugh at Cerny and Ronald talking about systems that finally free designers and artists from limitations... I know what you swines are like, give you an inch and you'll take a bloody mile. However, with how both systems stream data / assets and how they both deal with geometry we are getting to a stage where we can more easily say "yeah, we can do that" rather than smashing our faces into our keyboards until qwerty is imprinted on our foreheads.

@God_of_Nowt well... I'm currently on a sort of sabbatical. I've done freelance work with a few studios here in Sweden for the past two years after having a nervous breakdown of sorts. Been doing this for just over 20 years and I just got burnt out on a project where I just couldn't face a project manager who... didn't understand what they were asking wasn't possible with the tools at our disposal. I had one too many hair dryer moments and decided I needed a break. Luckily plenty of people had already left to other teams for similar reasons and they've kept me busy. However in November I'm going to be part of a team again, after I found somewhere that wanted me and where I wanted to be. I can totally understand where your friend is coming from, it can slowly erode you this industry if you aren't careful.

@God_of_Nowt hey, thanks for your insight!
It's always interesting for a layman as myself to have a peek into the whole process of actually making games, and especially dispelling common misconceptions.

At the end of the day, as long it is a good game like the previous one, I'm fine with it. Plus having it also in the PS4 will guarantee the game to sell way more, which at the same time will guarantee us another sequel (that's the reality for games this big; low sells means doom). By the time Horizon 3 releases, it will PS5 exclusive.

Also, the PS5 version will obviously will be the definitive edition: run better, look better, feel better, etc... so I will get that one instead.

@God_of_Nowt yeah, I thought mention of Sweden and nightmare project managers might give the game away somewhat. I'll just say the horror stories don't do the place justice, and everything you read on Glass Door you can multiply tenfold. It's a shame, because there are great people there, and all in all it's not a bad place to work. Maybe it's just not for me, or anyone else who expects to be treated with respect and dignity. lol.

Well just think how much more money they(SONY) will make for bringing out a PS4 version to + Spiderman:MM. But I would rather it be PS5 only because then they can go all out doing things that are just not possible on the PS4(like the thing they do in R&C) Oh well let's see what the difference will be next year between the two games.

@God_of_Nowt they're actually a great company / publisher to work for. Wouldn't want people thinking they pay badly, or that their HR teams don't support staff, they do. But the pressure put on people at the top is forced slowly down through the organisation, and at no level do I see managers or leads trying to shoulder that burden, they just magnify and transfer it. It's not a great culture to be honest. Maybe I just didn't fit. I jumped ship from a team in Malmö that maybe I should've stuck with, I'm back down south now, and happier for it. Still, learned a lot and I guess I'll take that with me. Any way nice talking, their are actually three other Devs on here who don't make it so clear that's what they are. You'll probably spot them by their acerbic wit and nihilism.

@theheadofabroom ah optimising code... those were the days. Now it's mostly about hiding the hatchet job you've done and praying to the machine God that when it gets to Q&A it doesn't all fall apart in a great big steaming mess of your own inadequacies... not that I'm neurotic or anything.

Hope it is as it's the game I want most.

Not sure if anyone else mentioned this but did anyone else think the bit from the trailer with the elephant type machine was very similar to the Oliphant's from return of the king.

@AdamNovice actually not necessarily. You take a game like GTA V and you can see it is technically possible with aggressive LoD management and careful use of billboards (2D assets deployed in lieu of 3D meshes to give the illusion of draw distance). I actually have zero doubt that the technical team at Guerilla could do that within the Decima Engine on PS4 and their artists are some of the best there are, and could definitely hide those transitions. The issues are around developing / generating those billboards. This is actually a perfect example of how ironically next-gen development might be easier. Rather than having to generate all those extra assets, on next-gen it'll just scale meshes in real-time from full assets... or that's the plan.

we have already seen how some ps4 games run at unacceptable performance levels on the base ps4 model compared to the pro. look no further than control. the game runs at 20fps (and below) in many instances and struggles to hit a smooth 30fps on the base model. there is a big improvment on the pro with its higher clock speed. if we are seeing this level of stability concerns between ps4 and ps4 pro, how in the world does sony expect horizon forbidden west to handle on base ps4 if it was built from the ground up on the ps5? the short answer is: jim ryan is lying. horizon was NOT built from the ground up for the ps5.

from day 1, they had to keep the ps4 spec in mind when designing the game. what does that mean? well, i think it means that the ps5 port will run at higher resolution, fidelity, framerates and draw distance, but the core design will be exactly the same as the ps4 version. the scope and scale will need to be toned down a few notches so not to be overly ambitious for the ps4 hardware. this is no different than a current gen pc game running at various quality and performance settings. horizon will be a fake ps5 game in other words and i am starting to believe god of war will also face the same dilemma. what a shame sony has lost its way and felt the need to lie about ps5 being a true next generation machine. i don't doubt that one day it will be, but we are at least 2 years away from true next generation gaming experience. heck, even the miles morales spiderman trailer looked like it was running off a ps4 despite it being ps5 footage. the character models and lighting were subpar (as a "next generation experience") to say the least.

@Porco while I agree with the gist of what you are saying, if you think the lighting, particle effects... which also acted as real-time light sources, and character models, PBR, physics and fluid simulation were subpar in Miles Morales, that's where we disagree.

@SirAngry well, i should have been more specific. the opening footage where miles is walking through the festival looked unimpressive and bland (to me) within the context of it being a "next generation ps5 game". i think the lighting looked flat and the character model/animation of miles looked like it was from your average ps4 game. the battle on the bridge looked good but certainly not out of reach from what the ps4 pro can handle at the surface level of observation. you sound knowledgable on the subject and i don't doubt that some of the effects on display were "advanced", but they did not wow me in the same way the unreal engine 5 demo did — again, when viewing miles morales through the lense of it being a "next generation ps5 experience". of course, i am being nitpicky here. all 1st party sony games objectively look great relative to the various 3rd party competition out there... but a generational leap? far from it. worth the $710CAD asking price? right now it isn't for me.

@God_of_Nowt i agree with your sentiments, but for me, the issue stems more from jim ryan being sly with his PR statements and misleading the community. there is no need for him to lie about it. he should have been upfront about their cross generational plans 6 months ago. they beat around the bush and mislead as a way to hype the ps5 launch (and make microsoft look bad when they disclosed their cross generational plans) and all that does is break down trust and loyalty towards sony. this is coming from a very loyal playstation fan dating back to the 90s. i adore sony's first party offerings so i am not going anwhere, but certainly i have lost inerest in being an early ps5 adopter and will wait it out a year or two.

@God_of_Nowt quick question, I'm no graphics expert, but clearly SS:MM was using a form of BVH, with various things excluded or occluded within the hierarchy, but what sort of BVH do you think they deployed?

@Porco have you seen the videos at 4K. Because I can assure you it looked gorgeous, and the physics based deformation was top notch. As to the walking section, couldn't disagree more, and many of the artists I've worked with were gushing about the specular maps deployed in some areas and the differing physical qualities of objects and how they interacted with light. If you think that compares to PS4 models I don't know what to tell you, but I assure you from what I saw I wouldn't be surprised if the Miles model contained almost as many polygons as the PS4 can display.

Being honest hurts a lot.

@SirAngry i did not see it in 4k. i don't doubt i am missing out on the true experience you and others witnessed in that regard. that said, sometimes it isn't about observing something from a deep, technical standpoint... it is about a first impression and wow factor. i did not get that feeling with miles morales — perhaps it more had to do with the content being predictable. the unreal engine 5 demo simply had the wow factor that miles morales lacked, in my opinion, and felt like something not yet seen before.

@God_of_Nowt I was thinking more about how their bounding volume hierarchy was used within their ray tracing model.

"it is about a first impression and wow factor. i did not get that feeling with miles morales — perhaps it more had to do with the content being predictable."

@Porco I can't argue with your subjective first impression. I won't argue that what you saw with SS:MM wasn't based on a kernel that is very much based in current-gen paradigms that's totally true, with various next-gen technologies and techniques liberally sprinkled in there. That's exactly what it was, but I found it very impressive. I thought what they achieved was impressive.

@SirAngry does it sound a bit like "Yay, lice!"?

@God_of_Nowt firstly I currently don't work anywhere officially. I just answer emails on things I may or may not have messed up. lol.

As to SS:MM I'm glad it's not just me that is impressed with what they've done. They're already able to optimise what little deployment of RT they have to get as big an impact on image quality. I noticed certain things we're omitted. It could've be mistakes though, but in the walking section some of the crowd were clearly included in the reflections while others weren't, obviously the nicely fluid simulated smoke was omitted too... but the snow wasn't and that had deformation applied. Wizardry I tell you, wizardry. I was surprised by the amount actually included, although I'm wondering whether they ramp it up and down depending on whether you are taking a nice leisurely stroll at street level, or whether you are swinging like a loon through the city. I'm sure they are scaling it, but either way, they're able to achieve a quality of frame image that's above what I expected for a launch game... and don't get me started on Demon's Souls... Sploosh.

I too think there's some cheating going on. It is far from my area of expertise, but I'm assuming they are selectively tracing certain things at lower resolutions, and possibly interpolating to reconstruct a higher quality image. I'll have to read their papers / go to their talks when Covid finally gets sorted, because I thought both R&C and SS:MM seemingly achieved a hell of a lot, with what looks on the surface a very small hit, and possibly a small computational footprint. They could also be faking some of the stuff further away from the focal point on screen and then blending in the RT as the object moves closer to the screen foreground. Almost like RT LoD, but I'm just guessing. It has a nice quality to it though, and I think their subtle approach leads to a more natural image than some of the in your face stuff I've seen which just doesn't look "real" to me. I think we're going to go through a stage where if the RT isn't in your face and turned up to 11 gamers will think it looks pants, but we'll evolve to use it more subtly and selectively to create more natural looking scenes. It'll be a journey that's for sure!

@Matroska Switch ports are exactly the comparison I was thinking of. There's no reason they couldn't have targeted PS5 from the outset, then had a separate team figure out how to make it all happen on PS4.

I don't think HFW on PS5 will be compromised at all due to the PS4 release – if anything, I'd be worried that the PS4 could get a substandard port.

Don't get what the fuss is all about. At the end of the day it's not an issue worth getting your knickers in a twist over. New games for all, hooray!

And if the Switch hasn't shown how scalable games can be - games like the Witcher 3, Doom, Wolfenstein etc - a console that is not much more powerful than a last gen console - more RAM but much lower bandwidth than we see on PS4 or even XB1S. Even if you take the XB1S, the Switch is much less than 50% if you actually look at the specs and compare FP32 performance. Not bashing on the Switch at all, its doing that in such a SMALL form factor.

The point is, Devs did NOT build the Witcher 3 for example with the 'Switch' in mind, with that spec governing what they could do and scale 'everything' up from that. They built the game on a PC and scaled it down for the 'current' consoles, cut the frame rate to 30fps, capped the resolution at 1080p, reduced settings to get it to run at an acceptable level - lower than the 'max' settings on a PC would offer, much lower resolution than PC's at the time could offer etc etc. Even things like 'vegetation density' can be scaled down...

There is NO reason a game like R&C couldn't be made to work on a PS4 - if you turn off Ray Tracing, don't mind falling through a Portal for 30s+ instead of 2s - and as far as the portal thing in combat, you have other games that can 'jump' from 1 point to another as EVERYTHING in that area is already held in RAM. teleporting in the 'same' area does not 'need' an SSD. Yes it may make the gameplay a bit less fluid - stuck in a portal for longer as you wait to stream in the next zone - but its not going to stop the game from running.

GT7 too can work - just like GTSport does - maybe may need to scale something down - drop the res a bit, maybe tweak some settings, LoDs etc but will run. Its ALL about whether Sony want to make you buy a next gen console by not scaling games down or want to have the largest possible user base to sell games to.

Every generation, there has been exclusives to make people buy games for that system and a lot of cross gen releases because 3rd Party Publishers want the biggest user base to maximise sales. Some devs will NOT be willing to compromise on something - like not releasing a 30fps version because they believe their game should be played at 60fps - but that doesn't mean it can't be scaled down IF they wanted.

In the past 20yrs, There hasn't really been any game that couldn't scale down - not really since 3D when scaling that down to old hardware that couldn't do 3D was impossible. Its going to take a few years before games would need too much compromises to run at acceptable levels and the work needed to scale it down may not be 'financially' viable to do so - after all, if few people are buying games on PS4/XB1 anymore, then its not worth doing the work to scale a game down for a 'few' sales. There is likely to be up to 10m on PS5 when Horizon 2 launches, and 100m still on PS4 - that's a BIG user base to sell to to recuperate costs and make it worth scaling down the game for. Sony will be deciding which games are worth keeping for PS5 as an incentive, and which will benefit them more financially to sell to a 'bigger' user base. R&C would affect the 'flow' of gameplay, be a bit more intrusive to the experience so maybe not worth scaling down. Miles Morales won't be affected as 30fps is how Spider-Man plays on PS4 anyway and an option on PS5 with RT turned on...

From the ground up in PS5 but will still be on PS4? Tells me there’s little point in the PS5 and this game would not have been noticeably different or sold any less of just the PS4 version was released. PS4 Pro should have been PS5 and this new console should have been PS6 and not released for another few years

Cross gen games suck. The whole concept sucks.

@Arnna it’s normally because the “new” gen is irrelevant and is not required.

So, no flying mounts. I just wish it wasn't Horizon 2 that's cross gen and they should have waited 2 years when a decent player base migrated to PS5 before they release it

@get2sammyb
Horizon zero dawn 2 trailer was a in engine CGI trailer.
Which is as we all know not representative of gameplay graphics.

“We have always said that we believe in generations. We believe that when you go to all the trouble of creating a next-gen console, that it should include features and benefits that the previous generation does not include. And that, in our view, people should make games that can make the most of those features.”

So Sony believes lies and spreads lies....

@MoonPresence We are not talking about the Switch here in relation to a PS5. There is a massive power difference between a PS4 an a Switch - if you want to compare GPU FP32 performance, RAM and RAM Bandwidth and CPU Cores - its a massive difference.

There is a BIG difference between a PS4 and PS5 too but a lot of that difference will be used to target higher resolutions and frame rates. It will be easier to hit 60fps with the Destruction seen in Just Cause 3 - something that caused a PS4 to struggle at 30fps. It will be easier to run games like AC: Unity at 60fps with so many unique AI controlled characters.

The point I was making is that as a Switch can run games like Witcher 3, Doom etc, then a PS4 could run the vast majority of games coming out on the PS5 if the devs/publishers are willing to compromise. Show me a PS5 game with so much greater AI, so much more destruction (that cannot be 'simplified' by reducing particles and/or polygon count) or these 'complex' game mechanics that have not been seen or done before because of the hardware.

Nothing I have seen from ANY trailer or read about is something that I have never seen or experienced in gaming before - apart from Ray Traced lighting. Unless they use RT in some 'game-play' way, like using RT shadows/reflections to alert you of enemies (something that would add something to a horror game) in an unscripted way, I really don't think we will see too much in the first couple of years or more that cannot be scaled down.

If you give the CPU/GPU more time - by cutting the frame rate down and/or Graphical settings (inc resolution), they have more time to process things like AI, destruction physics etc. The new GPU's are still 8 cores running twice as fast. Multi-threading and better efficiency adds to its relative capability but increasing the frame time by dropping the frame rate does give the CPU a lot more time. By reducing draw distance, reducing object (like foliage) density, reducing particle effects etc you reduce the draw calls on the CPU too - other ways to free up CPU resources for other things...

The gap between a PS5 and PS4, just like the gap from a Switch to PS4, is large but you can scale things down IF its in the interest of the publisher. Sony won't want too many games to be scaled down as they want to use games as an incentive to upgrade. Obviously, they also realise that they can make more money by selling games to a much larger install base and its not as if they will be making 'money' on PS5 sales so need to offset loses somewhere....

@pip_muzz
You say all the Cerny talk about level design was bs?

The FP32 difference between the Switch and the PS4 is roughly the 84% uplift in favour of the PS4. The Switch actually has very different GPU architecture as well, and CPU for that matter, much of which means it's able to handle geometry far better than you'd think the paper specs would suggest. Even so it is dwarfed by the PS4 in performance. But it is still far more comparable to the PS4, than the PS4 is to the PS5, and CDPR had to completely rewrite how much of their game, and engine worked to fit it onto the Switch. In many respects the Switch version of the Witcher 3 is an "imposter" using different "techniques" to simulate and emulate it's bigger brother.

You literally wrote in a previous article... "It’s essentially the same development environment as PS4 and you scale up from there, for the new powers, the features, and whatnot. I can't stress enough how happy developers seem to be with this situation"

@pip_muzz Since you seem to be well aware of how game development works, please be so kind as to provide us with examples of how exactly Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart on the PS5 would also work on a PS4?

Answer: It can't. Because unlike Horizon 2, Ratchet on the PS5 cannot work on a HDD-based machine. It just can't. Because the PS5's hardware can do things the PS4 can't.

If Ratchet Rift Apart was also made with the PS4 in mind, do you think it would have dimensional portals which would teleport you in 2 seconds to the next stage every ten seconds? No. Because the PS4. Cannot. Do that.

From the moment Horizon 2 is also released on a PS4, it must always take into account the PS4's limitations. The scope of the game is immediately lessened and handicapped. You won't see Alloy riding flying robots at tremendous speeds across the world map. You won't see Alloy being able to dive into the sea and the entire surface textures and assets getting dumped in 1 second in order for the PS5 to use all its available memory on the underwater textures and assets. Because it also has to run on a PS4.

This 'never bothered the PC' is a flawed analogy because 99.99% of PC games are built with an HDD and old-gen consoles in mind - hence why you never had seen this in practice.

Idon'tbelieveyou.gif

Does anyone know if I purchased a ps4 games that gets free Ps5 upgrade, will the game performance be the same as if I purchased the standalone Ps5 game?

Seems an obvious way to get Ps5 games without having to pay the premium that publishers are putting on Ps5 games?

Am I missing something?

@Scottmguy the performance would be the same if you purchased a ps5 game or a ps4 game upgraded to ps5, not much difference in price i think the option is more there if you buy a ps4 game at launch then at a later date buy a ps5 you then have the option to get the ps5 version but you must keep the ps4 disc to play the ps5 version otherwise it won't work vice versa on digital but the ps5 will know anyway that you own the licence there for be able to upgrade for free anyway. Probably to save you some money probably better buying the ps4 versions then supposed to the ps5.

@God_of_Nowt Glad you explained this to people who just go with the "holding back" lies. People pathetically thinking flying machines and underwater explorations won't be possible in HFW because limitations...Christ! GTAV had planes and submersibles since PS3!

All I'll say is if God of War and Demon Souls join SM:MM and Horizon as being 'possible' on PS4 then with a confirmation prior to launch then I'm cancelling my PS5 since there will be no point in buying it at present.

I really don't care about fancy-pants features or 4K visuals. I just want to play the games.

@Paranoimia If the big thing is jumping too New worlds all the time how do you want too fix that. A loadingscreen every time you jump too another world? Would that not destroy the feeling and gameplay?

Will you get a different experience on PS5 compared too PS4 im certain. It will it run and look better ofcourse so im not really worried one bit its gonna dissapoint.

I loved HZD and i cant wait too play HZD2 on PS5. I just want too play the best version.

And i believe there will be PS5 that only work on PS5 like Rachet and Clank its impossible too create the same gameplay with the instant loading.

But there also will be some crossgen games and if you look at the PS4 version of HZD how can you not be exited for the second on PS5 but thats just me.

And the outrage about Sackboy why would they not make a PS4 version. And for me personally i have other more important things too be outrages for. 😆

@Flaming_Kaiser I didn't say it would be ideal, just that it could be done. Wouldn't be much worse than the delay jumping across the same world in Horizon, The Division, or Breakpoint. Just stick in some Stargate-like portal as a load screen, or a story-related minigame to play while it's loading like they used to do back in the C64 days, rather than a static screen with gameplay tips and a progress bar.

@Prime_Objective - you consider that a "fiasco"? really? https://www.google.com/search?q=fiasco+definition&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS879US879&oq=fiasco+defi&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l6.9527j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

@Scottmguy - that's an interesting question. i'm not hung up on it. i already preordered miles morales on ps5. however, i have thought of what you're saying. and what about if someone waits and buys ps4 version of MM off ebay used for 20 dollars - can that be upgraded to ps5? or what if whoever bought the game new and upgraded it to ps5 and THEN sold it on ebay - does the person who bought it used get to upgrade it again? honestly, i'll bet there will be some restrictions - but we'll see.

@eddie429 Ok, maybe I have exaggerated a bit, but with all these PushSquare articles about how Sony is well prepareing for every PS5 Event, delaying them even, to be EXTREMELY well prepared... And then, MISTAKE they say, ok ***** happens... Or maybe for example there will be another PS Event in 2-3 weeks, where we will find out that Demon's Souls is indeed coming to PS4 and even pc, because... You know, why not? Just like we learned this now with Horizon, Miles and Sackboy.

If Horizon II releases on the PS4 then I will have no reason to purchase a PS5, at least not for a while.

https://media.giphy.com/media/6JB4v4xPTAQFi/giphy.gif

<Sony doesn't provide choice>
"Sony is so anti-consumer"
<Sony provides choice>
"What is Sony doing!?"

I don't understand the backlash for half of the things the community complains about.

Yeah I feel like Sony lied or held the truth back but still doesn’t change my opinion about getting a ps5 I’m looking forward to all these upgrades and demon souls which is only a ps5 game.

@Paranoimia I agree to a degree but in the end it still will be annoying and with something like the Rachet and Clank im not willing too do a minigame every world jump. I stand by my point it would take away a lot of the speciality /gamemechanics off the game. And if the loading will be even longer with open world games.

@get2sammyb I sincerely doubt there will be THAT big a difference. The initial reveal trailer does say "Footage captured from a Playstation 5", however (and this is the most important thing), it does not say it was captured running in-engine, in real-time, a PS5. That trailer is obviously, blatantly not running in real-time. It's certainly in-engine, but it's been graded and had effects added in post and polished to a degree that a game running in real-time simply can't emulate.

Obviously on PS4 it's not going to run as well, it's not going to look as good, it's not going to load as fast, it won't have the haptics or the 3D audio, etc., etc., etc...but I'm willing to bet it will largely play the same, and that's the important part.

Beginning to think we should start a Push Square drinking game for every time we see "Japanese giant" in an article 😂

Looking at Jim Ryan and Eric Lempel (marketing), damn... i miss Andrew House, Shawn Layden, shuhei Yoshida...

@HappyArtie Did you think of that all in your own or did your mummy have to help you?

What, they worked almost 3 years on this game and it isn't only on PS5. No of course not. When they started the specs of the PS5 weren't known so they started on an ambitious PS4 game. When PS5 specs came around they started the development for PS5. How will it be better?

• Higher frames per second.
• Higher textures and models.
• Raytracing.
• Faster loading times.
• More characters in cities.
• A more detailed environment.
• 3D audio.
• Optimized with dualSence.
  And that are a few of the things I can imagine. It's fine, it's what the cross gen period of every console ever released looked like. Could Sony have been a bit more clear, sure, but is it a surprise, no.

@pip_muzz Thats not true at all. Games can (and will) be held back by previous generations quite easily. A simple example of this is the SSD vs HDD. Many, many, many games have their level design restricted by load times. Narrow passages, loading areas, slowly opening doors, elevators, etc... All in an effort to hide the fact that its loading data. This is core level design built into the game and engine, it's not something that simply scales.

God of War was terrible about this. I think I spent 25% of my play time in some sort of loading mechanism, from the fast travel "branch" to the extremely long world-to-world animation sequences, to the many many identical small narrow cracks that you have move slowly through while it loads data for the next area.

There are also complex calculations like physics and AI to take into account, those also don't scale well, not at all.

@JapaneseSonic honestly, in the gameplay demo it actually felt that the portals were just that one second longer than needed, which made me thing they are indeed like hidden elevator loading in modern games.

@Prime_Objective good luck with that theory - it's already been confirmed DS is ps5 only.

@get2sammyb Just came across a link on twitter to this 15 month old article - which somehow I didn't comment on 🤷‍♂️ - about HFW on PS4 vs PS5. Wouldn't be surprised if it gets some more comments over the next month or so.

I'm of the mind PS4 @ 30fps 1080p = PS5 @ 60fps 4k everything else can be the same game. If you play HFW on a 1080p TV why do you need a 4k resolution? I think it will be fine on PS4. Playing the last mission of HZD now and that game looks stunning. How could they take 4 years on the same system and make a bad game? Trick question, they can't. I'm happy to have a PS5 for it though since I have a 4k tv w/ hdr. 👍