Topic: Nintendo Switch --OT--

Recently I rarely played my Switch games as my PS4 games hype is still on.
I felt Switch in year 6 started to feel disappointing for some reason.
The machine is already outdated in my opinion and it made the bad treatment for physical release by certain developers.

Just quoting the end of your previous reply for context but yes, you're making perfect sense.

I often think about the relationship between storytelling and gameplay in games, especially when you get to see games with zero story go up against these complex narrative-driven experiences for the same GOTY award. I think Nintendo games are a good place to analyse the balance, because as charming and as beloved as their stories can be, they're often kept relatively simple whilst clever gameplay innovation takes centre stage. It's certainly what I've felt about previous Zelda games, as well as every Mario title I've ever played, and fits with that toy-centric design ethos you mention, too.

I'm somebody who places utmost importance on story and character when gaming, but there have been a few notable exceptions. Heck, just this year, I'm reminded of my reaction to Metal Gear Survive, when I concluded that its gameplay was a bigger draw than its story. Perhaps you'll be pleasantly surprised by Tears of the Kingdom by story's end, but I certainly feel that, the more I see and play, most of its effort is being spent on clever construction mechanics and puzzle solutions.

But hey, maybe it's not the destination that matters. Maybe it's the journey.

Beat my third divine beast, which was the Gerudo one. That boss was one of the hardest I’ve fought in a Nintendo game to be honest. Probably because all of my gear was metal! At least that gave me the last heart I need for the Master Sword.

@RogerRoger To be clear, I don't think stories, in and of themselves, matter one whit in Zelda games. By and large, Zelda games don't have stories in any meaningful sense. They have long sequences of directed gameplay or setpieces (which culminated traditionally in the series' famous dungeons) and the narrative elements, as they are, exist to provide context and heighten the drama of what is happening on-screen. This is why most Zelda stories have been some variant of: go collect the seven thingies from these important people to unlock the power to defeat the bad guy!

That's obviously not to say there's not a layer of complex lore in the background, but it's not, and never, the focus of one of these games.

Which is why BotW's structure was so brilliant, IMO. It leaned even harder into this ethos, to the point where the traditional open world tension between gameplay and story disappear completely. Insofar as the story is about Link becoming strong enough to defeat the Calamity Ganon, the gameplay IS the story. You write the story with your actions, and the game molds itself around how you approach it.

This actually gave the designers some space to include real narrative elements that didn't somehow revolve around 'collect the thing to beat the guy' via the game's tragic backstory, which you can gradually unlock through the game via memories and hitting main story waypoints. Brilliantly, even this ties back into gameplay, but in a more organic way, as it's primarily a reward for exploration, and being immersed in your environment.

TotK tries something similar by making your goal to find Princess Zelda, but without an explicit, immediate goal that's connected to the flow of the gameplay, a lot of the game just ends up feeling sort of context-less. I'm sure they'll connect the dots between what I'm doing and what's happening in Bad Guy Land down the road, but it lacks the sort of unity of elements that BotW had.

So far, I'm playing just to play. Which isn't inherently a bad thing. That's how Mario games are, too, and those are some of the most beloved games to ever exist. But it does mean I am changing how I approach this title compared to its predecessor.

Interestingly, Monolith Soft was heavily involved with the development of these modern Zelda games, but they're seemingly the one internal Nintendo developer whose games actually prioritize narrative. Admittedly, the Xenoblade games lightened up on this a bit compared to their Playstation days, but a game like Xenoblade 3 still has practically a Metal Gear Solid-esque commitment to complex and emotional storytelling, with one set of connected cutscenes in the middle of the game actually practically being a movie in its own right, since it's roughly two hours long. Thankfully, there's, like, a three minute window of time in the middle to save/rest first lol.

@nessisonett

"That boss was one of the hardest I’ve fought in a Nintendo game to be honest."

Ol Flowerblight Ganon by the Hila Rao shrine still reigns supreme.

In terms of real enemies, though, I struggled with the lynels more than any of the bosses. Especially the golden variants, eugh.

@Ralizah I remember having way more trouble with the flower lady the first time I played it. This time I just kinda glided near enough to the end.

55 hours of playtime over the last ten days lol. I've only done one of the four main story questlines so far and have only collected a third of the memories. I was wrapping up BotW after 75 hours.

This is gonna be a loooooooooong one.

@nessisonett I love that players were salty enough about her automated abuse that they very quickly found ways to destroy her flowerbed without even actually touching the ground and activating her animations.

Finally finished up XC3: Future Redeemed last night. Don't want too say too much because the whole thing is kinda spoilery, but it was pretty great. Kinda like Torna, I kinda liked that it was a tighter, more concise adventure. That said I kinda wish it were a bit longer, but that's just because it was so good (without getting too spoilery, I would have loved it if that "memory" was fleshed out into an entire region).

I think the only thing I have left to do is clear out the last 4-5 unique monsters, but I think I'm going to leave them alone because there's no way to organically grow stronger to fight them (the only way I could see is to constantly grind the one closest to you in level until you're strong enough for the next one). TBH, I'm almost level 70 & I can't beat that level 60 T-Rex thing (don't know how I'd begin to take on the level 70, 80, 90, & 100 unique monsters).

Would love to start on Kirby or Zelda, but it's been a few months since the last time I touched my gaming laptop (since Prime Remastered released, I think), so I should probably play through something in my Steam library in order to put it through it's paces.

The Lightning Temple is definitely an improvement over the Water one. It feels MUCH closer to being a 'real' Zelda dungeon than anything else in the game so far. It's too bad the air being choked with dust from the sandstorm made it look sort of visually washed out.

Has my favorite boss in the game so far as well. If there was one thing I missed in BotW, it was the sort of gigantic, terrifying bosses you used to see in Zelda games, and this definitely hit the spot in that regard.

I'll also say, while you don't unique gear to use in these dungeons, having to use the champion's abilities to complete the dungeons and defeat the bosses feels like an acceptable substitute.

And the build-up to those dungeons feels VERY classic Zelda in terms of how they're structured. You know, talking to NPCs, solving environmental puzzles, completing set-pieces, etc.

The more I play, the more the main story stuff feels like a middle-ground between old and new Zelda.

@Ralizah I appreciate the story explanation you provided the other day. I think I got myself to the point where I was talking about something I didn't understand, and so am grateful for your patience! Probably speaks to how I approach games, rather than their actual nature.

Interesting about the involvement of the Xenoblade developers, though. Maybe they're just thankful to take a break from all that heavy story, even if it might've had an influence!

@RogerRoger I don't think your analysis was flawed at all. Just wanted to explain my own (perhaps slightly unorthodox) feelings on the matter.

In the case of Monolith Soft, I think they were pulled in to assist with the open world design elements of these games. Monolith's own Xenoblade Chronicles X was, I believe, the first fully open world 3D game Nintendo ever published, so they seem to be the go-to experts on how to craft an interesting and open ended environment. It must have been such a switch up for the Zelda devs, who had been making increasingly tightly designed linear action-adventure titles since 1992 (although, interestingly, the original Legend of Zelda from the mid-80s is perhaps the first major open world game, which is why people often refer to these new entries as being a return to the roots of the series).

Nintendo EPD's gameplay-first approach tends to go to the center of their design philosophy, and really explains all of the idiosyncratic aspects of their productions. For example, the squid people in Splatoon are squid people primarily because that concept aligned nicely with the gameplay functions they wanted the game to feature, rather than designing a game around the concept of a post-apocalyptic world inhabited by intelligent squids. I'm sure that's why Zelda stories were the way they were in the more linear games, and then changed with the introduction of an open-world structure.

Ok the Ocarina of Time music playing when I pulled the Master Sword out its pedestal was very cool. Heard that tune a million times cause of switching age playing randomiser runs. There seems to be a lot of hidden OoT music in BotW actually, heard a bit of the Kokiri forest music but not found Saria’s Song!

@nessisonett Yeah I loved little touches like that. Made the game feel nostalgic in places even though is was a new direction for Zelda games.

@Ralizah It's great that Nintendo had the necessary experience to call upon amongst its studios. Say what you will about its re-use in Tears of the Kingdom, but the Hyrule from Breath of the Wild is undoubtedly one of the greatest open-world sandboxes in gaming history (and that's coming from me, somebody who was decidedly "meh" on the game). Whatever creative process Nintendo fosters in its studios, or whatever cross-team support network they've established, the results sure do speak for themselves.

I quite like those instances of creative freedom, where something ends up "being a thing" out of necessity or accident, and then expands exponentially from that point. I think that's where a lot of modern AAA games go wrong, in that they start with a plot or character concept that then gets crammed into a gameplay style that doesn't quite fit, or that ends up diluting the original idea.

Played a bit more Tears of the Kingdom yesterday. Did the bird village temple boss thingie (don't ask me the proper names of everything!) and then cleared a bunch of Challenge Tombs (hey, I'm a Tomb Raider fan, they're Challenge Tombs, okay?) for some extra hearts and stamina. Fun was had, but the boss frustrated me, mostly because I was suddenly dropping back in to a game where the controls will always feel clunky and counter-intuitive, so I kept pressing the wrong buttons.

After 20+ hours, I've finally arrived at my first temple in TotK. This is going to be a long game, so I'm definitely going to play it in bursts in order to avoid getting burned out.

Anyone else feel like stamina isn't as important in this game as in BotW? Because in BotW, you really relied on climbing in order to get everywhere. But in TotK, you have so many ways of traveling vertically. Sky towers shoot you up, you can fast travel to completed shrines on sky islands and glide down from there, you can stand on stones that have fallen from the sky and reverse time so you travel upwards. I even did a shrine today that taught me you can attach a rocket to a shield and it lets you fly up for a short time. Seeing as you can purchase zonai devices like rockets, that's going to be incredibly useful.

So yeah, I feel like upgrading your stamina is fairly pointless since you don't really climb as much in this game.

@LtSarge It still has many uses. Gliding long distances, charge attacks for some very beefy enemies, climbing (because you'll still need that a good bit).

In fact, I'd argue Stamina in this game will sneak up on you. Some sky islands you're not getting too even with your best devices, so best get gliding.

Granted, there's another reason you'll want stamina. I'd say just over two full wheels is what you need. I've stopped at 2 & 1/3, and I've only rarely felt like popping an elixir.

I finally did my first dungeon which was the wind temple. So far it was decent. The boss fight was very reminiscent of the Zelda games I miss so much so i loved it, but I forgot to take a pic of it in case it has a slot in the compendium 😅

The dungeon itself was a little too short and still felt like a divine beast in that it doesn't feel like you're solving puzzles to progress through each point of a dungeon. But instead you're wandering around almost aimlessly just looking for the right entrance to get to an objective with simple puzzles scattered about. It probably didn't help that I refused to take off my skyward sword clothes and I had very few cold resistance food/pots so I was sorta rushing

Another thing I didn't like is how samey it looks. Maybe it was the constant blizzard masking everything or how the game itself just has diluted colors in general. Flying around from the outside you can tell it's a ship, but when you're on it or inside. I thought I was in a slightly more elaborate shrine. Overall I hope the other dungeons are better and they keep the really cool boss fights!

My Switch finally updated to show my playtime, just a little under 30 hours for me. I know some people have already played hundreds of hours of this, but after the first couple of days I was mostly playing this for a few hours over the weekend, so I am actually surprised I stacked as many hours as I did. I do tend to find myself just absolutely losing myself in this world, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised.

I rolled credits in BOTW in around 50 hours, and I've finished two temples in TOTK so it sorta feels like my playtime tracks, but I also feel like around the 30 hour mark I'd made good progress on the story, but also in the world as well with BOTW, really digging into side content, upgrades and other such things in that time.

However, with TOTK the world is so expanded in its density, I sorta feel like I've barely done anything in those 30 hours. I can see myself going well over the 50 hour mark with this, and playing this potentially for months to come. Especially as the summer season starts ramping up and new releases come along, it may just be I never end up finishing this, to be honest.

I also completed the Wind Temple yesterday lol. Apparently that's the popular choice atm.

@LtSarge If anything, with all of the gliding that's needed in this game, I feel like stamina is even more important. Even at 2.5 wheels, I'm regularly running close to the limits of my capabilities on that front.

Admittedly, it's more important for sky and Depths exploration than the surface world.

@RogerRoger The way Sony and Nintendo's first-party studios oftentimes collaborate to tremendous effect, vs the general dysfunction and seeming isolation of Microsoft's studios and subsidiaries, really makes you realize the importance of acquiring studios that can be worked into the 'culture' of a company.

@nessisonett I've always appreciated more subtle nods to older games vs the full on member berries approach, IMO. That was my biggest issue with the Xenoblade 3 expansion vs the base game. The base game references older entries in more subtle ways: targeted use of musical cues, narrative parallelism, etc. The references don't detract from the original setting, but are targeted in such a way as to enhance the power of a sequence. Whereas the expansion goes full on MCU crossover with characters, locations, etc. from previous games.

@Judal27 Of the three temples I've completed so far (Water, Lightning, and Wind), the Lightning Temple was the closest to feeling like a traditional Zelda dungeon. That includes the build-up to the dungeon as well. Although if you think being the middle of a storm washes out a setting, wait until you get there.

Wind Temple boss was probably my favorite to date, but tbh all of the dungeon bosses so far have been quite a bit more interesting than the Ganon Blight variants.

@Pizzamorg Definitely. I had pretty much completed all of the major content in BotW around the 75 hour mark. I'm already closing in on that in TotK and have seen... well, not nothing, but a fraction of the game's full content.

@Haruki_NLI @Ralizah That's a good point about gliding. I did think about that, but it hasn't hindered me from reaching an area yet. It's obviously more convenient if you can glide all the way to some place instead of walking there, but it's not necessary. So upgrading stamina right now is more for convenience in my case, while hearts are more necessary. I'm guessing that will change later on based on your comments, so I'll keep that in mind.

I’ve beaten all 4 divine beasts now, so I’ll probably tackle the memory photo things and I have some trial of the sword to do as well. The Goron one was pretty clearly the weakest, with an annoying area that didn’t really encourage the same creativity that the others did. Daruk was pretty cool though.