@render Piracy with games is definitely an issue on PC but ultimately it’s a big hassle with terrible download speeds therefore you’re probably doing something wrong if you can’t convince people to buy your game legitimately. Think it was Gabe Newell who described piracy as a service issue.
@nessisonett I think a lot of people still underestimate the role convenience plays in forming consumer habits. It's often more important than price, IMO
@themightyant forza horizon 5 had launch sale records for Nov, even though it was on gamepass. I think even for lesser known titles, it helps. I've bought many an indie I played on gamepass, before they left. A good game will sell, whether on a gamepass or not, right?
@themightyant I feel does a game on gamepass hurt sales elsewhere? Like the col alluded to, why buy on ps if it's on gp? And if that is the thinking, why don't people have the same qualms about others waiting for a game sale discount.
@PhhhCough judging by all the news stories about pretty much every multi-format game selling at ‘roughly’ an 80%-20% split on Playstation and Xbox respectively... it would suggest that sales are effected.
@PhhhCough Excellent point and the thing is that playing games on Game Pass instead of buying them would surely hurt developers just as much as waiting for games to receive a price cut instead of buying them at full price.
At the end of the day, there are hundreds of games consumers want to buy and they want to pay as little as possible for them. I just think that bringing up the argument of developers being hurt into the discussion is a bit silly because surely people aren't buying every single game that comes out and at full price for that matter. Because that's the only way that you're not hurting developers.
@themightyant I hope sites like this thrive as there are fewer and fewer places where there would be a sensible chat about a subject like this and I agree curating for people's time is as important as info for financial decisions! There are some downsides to gamepass though I never covered. Like I want to play yakuza 2 and have never got round to it, now it's leaving the service! I wonder how many sales devs get the from discount when games leave the service?
@colonelkilgore I can't say whether this is true across the board for all third party games. I mean is that how it is for borderlands or assassin's creed, etc? As for lost sales from gamepass, I'm sure the devs/pubs are fairly(?) compensated for their game being on gamepass. Unless the devs/pubs are paying to be on gamepass, which I doubt. Im sure the devs weigh their options, probably feel there might be more visibility on gamepass. Maybe they feel this large payout, while it sells on other consoles, might be enough to bankroll there next project. This is all out of my butt.
Game Pass would be a lot more tempting for me if I knew exactly how long each game was going to be on the service (barring exclusives). But I'm always going to be nervous the the games I sub to play will leave soon, and it just puts me off from ever jumping in.
@Ralizah The app on the PC tells you what games are leaving soon and I honestly haven’t ever been caught out. Only PS Now’s done that to me with bloody God of War!
@Ralizah Yeah, that's one of the downsides of it. Generally speaking though, the majority of the third-party games are on there for at least a year. The only exceptions are games by Rockstar, such as GTA V or Red Dead Redemption II, which are only on the service for like three months at a time. They'll also announce which games are leaving two weeks in advance, which is plenty of time to get through 10 hour games but not so much if you're playing e.g. JRPGs.
Announcing which games are leaving also functions as a motivator for people, funnily enough. I always see lots of people playing some of the games that are going to leave during those weeks and it can honestly help motivate you to finally give them a go.
I do have to say that one of my favourite things about being a Game Pass user is finding out the next batch of games that are being added. It's always an exciting time going through the list. On Thursday for example, games like Firewatch, Lake, Mortal Kombat 11, Broken Age, The Gunk and more will be added. It's always a nice mix of genres in every update and as a variety gamer, I love that!
@themightyant I feel does a game on gamepass hurt sales elsewhere? Like the col alluded to, why buy on ps if it's on gp? And if that is the thinking, why don't people have the same qualms about others waiting for a game sale discount.
I tend to think that if a game is on Game Pass, or another sub service, it is actually likely to sell much better on other platforms (and Xbox for non GP subscribers) due to increased mindshare and attention. Effectively using Game Pass is another marketing device, VERY useful for smaller games with tiny marketing budgets.
Almost all devs who have talked about their game on Game Pass have said alluded to good things financially. They're under NDA so can't talk freely. Logically it won't have worked out for all.
And there are certainly devs who have talked about better long-tail sales because of Game Pass, PS+ and other such services. Not just the obvious ones like Fall Guys, Rocket League etc.
I'm sure this will FAR outweigh anyone that wants to boycott or wait for sales in most cases.
My concern is more for the games that DON'T get chosen for Game Pass (they're rightly very picky) or PS 'Spartacus' if that is the way the industry is going. Will that affect those devs badly? Will it be "you need to be on Game pass/Spartacus to compete?". Or if the cut changes after this user acquisition period and MS tightens the purse strings.
@render Great link, thanks for the share. But who is the arbiter of 'good' and 'bad' games. The article only says "is poorly received on the service"?
But it's in line with my logical assumptions that the ones that will suffer are those that don't gain traction. Mindshare is an important factor. For smaller titles being on Game Pass (or PS+ etc.) is a HUGE marketing tool that advertises your game to other gamers NOT subscribed to those services and leads to sales spikes. Additionally long-tail sales are usually increased as the domino effect takes hold and one gamer recommends it to another, and another, and so on.
But if the game never gains this traction then you've effectively sold your game cheaply for little added return. I'm actually not TOO bothered by that as on the whole gamers will separate the wheat from the chaff, but there will be some very niche titles that may suffer, or games launching alongside big AAA hits that may be overshadowed, or just some bad luck.
@themightyant That was my opening argument yesterday about what happens if game sales collapse. You end up with this situation where the only way to make money is for your game to be on a subs service and those that don't make it won't make any money. It also leaves the companies running the subs services as the gatekeepers for what's allowed to be successful but also leaves developers getting a set amount of money for their game regardless of how successful it is on the service. As more games get put on the service then the amount of money that MS / Sony (or whoever else) give out will be spread across that larger number of games so each one will get less.
As for who decides if a game is good or bad, I guess it's the same as it is for purchased games in that the media or streamers etc will get review copies and get to say what they think. Some traction can be gained from lots of people jumping into a game all at the same time like Fallguys and this is going to be quite common for those types of live service games.
Outriders, as mentioned in that article, is a good example of a game that didn't come out the other side too well. I remember when it released it got fairly average reviews and I remember seeing loads of people pretty much saying the same thing on various forums but that they were playing it because it was on GP. I also remember a lot of people scoffing that it was going to be full price on PS. All those things tend to stick in your mind when it comes to your perception of a game so I generally didn't bother checking it out until last month, and you know what when I did try the demo I found out it was a fairly average game so just deleted it.
I agree with a lot of what you said generally but i'm going to push back a little in the hunt for balance. Not least there's quite a few misconceptions about Game Pass in this thread.
It also leaves the companies running the subs services as the gatekeepers for what's allowed to be successful
To be fair the level of curation on Game Pass is simply excellent. There's something for everyone and very little dross. Most games are 7,8,9s. The few that are lower are almost always interesting enough in some way to warrant their inclusion and are often cult hits or games young children like. Games like Ark Survival evolved [69], Conan Exiles [64], even lower scored games like Goat Simulator [53] have a large audience. The image that does the rounds (this is an older one) captures this nicely. But metacritic isn't really the only mark of quality
but also leaves developers getting a set amount of money for their game regardless of how successful it is on the service.
We've heard from devs, Phil and MS that all deals are different some are an one off upfront fee, others by use etc. they seem pretty open to negotiation on this, it isn't one size fits all.
As more games get put on the service then the amount of money that MS / Sony (or whoever else) give out will be spread across that larger number of games so each one will get less
Again this fits with the curation aspect. While the number of games on GP IS growing this is basically first party titles, they do a good job of adding AND removing third-party games in roughly equal measure. So costs could stay the same. Or they might even have a larger pot if the service keeps growing. The downside is games do leave the service. But that is the better option.
As for who decides if a game is good or bad, I guess it's the same as it is for purchased games in that the media or streamers etc will get review copies and get to say what they think. Some traction can be gained from lots of people jumping into a game all at the same time like Fallguys and this is going to be quite common for those types of live service games.
Indeed. As I said i'm actually more optimistic about this as us gamers just get to try the games and decide for ourselves and spread the word. The best games should rise naturally and many will find unexpected audiences.
Re: outriders. I didn't play it despite it being on Game Pass so can't say much on it's worth. But it seems to fits into that middle tier, sort of modern AA, category (i.e. Relatively high budget for average end result) that I think could struggle in these circumstances if it doesn't massively take off. Regardless it's hardly a smoking gun. Plenty of games of it's scope fail to make a profit it may have nothing to do with Game Pass. Besides i'm always sceptical of Square Enix talking about "failing" games (Tomb Raider, Hitman, Avengers etc.)
@themightyant I was not suggesting that the majority of games on the service were dross. I do see what releases are going onto GP and know there are some quality games. Quite a few of those games did have an audience already though before they went on GP which is slightly different than launching on it which is what most publishers will be facing in a much more subs heavy environment.
I can see your side of the argument for GP but it also reinforces how much power these subs services are going to have when they hold all the cards. It's the inevitable future though and I think most people will likely be dragged that way for the value proposition alone.
@render Sorry I should have been clearer. I was correcting some of the other posters misinformation in the thread like 'quality over quantity', 'prefer good games' etc. when in fact Game Pass has 5 of the top 10 or so xbox games of 2021 and 2 of the 6 TGA game of the year nominees, plus Halo and Forza, with Deathloop coming next year. It definitely has both quality and good games, including recent ones.
I understand your concerns, it worries me too a little, which is why I started the thread/discussion. But I'm not sure we're going to see widescale Day 1 releases for a while, especially third party AA/AAA, anytime soon, there just isn't enough money in the pot for that right now. There will be a few sporadically, as now, but not too many.
My bigger concern is if we end up with every major publisher having their own sub service, similar to TV where is feels like you need at least a few of Netflix, Disney+, Amazon Prime, Sky, Hulu, HBO and more to get all the TV you may want. Are we going to end up with Ubisoft+, EA Access+, Devolver+, Square Enix+, TenCent+ etc. in addition to Game Pass/Spartacus. Again I think maybe in time, but not right now. MS were pretty smart in getting EA to come on board with GP Ult. I feel.
Also agreed on the value proposition pulling punters. I think we'll end up similar to "CD's are still sold, but who buys them". Though as a finance conscious consumer I don't mind this as long as A) it doesn't hurt the industry B) the service doesn't get worse or significantly more expensive. It has to remain that value proposition. I DO expect a rise in 2-3+ years if all goes according to plan, perhaps sooner if PS+++ is uncompetitively priced.
Gamepass is an extraordinary value proposition for gamers, but ultimately I do think it'll do more harm to the industry than good. I'm really quite concerned about it as a fan of gaming, but hopefully I'll be wrong and the good times can continue to roll.
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