@colonelkilgore Oh, hey, I frequently contradict myself and fall for dark, gritty shows and films. I think it matters to me whether something was designed to strike a certain tone. Star Trek was always intended to be an optimistic and hopeful comment on the human condition and so, when it overtly flies in the face of that, I feel uncomfortable... but then prequel series Enterprise, deliberately going back to show humanity finding its feet before the Federation? I loved that when it got dark, because it had a purpose in doing so, in service of a larger, more hopeful endgame. It's the same reason I love Batman, and 24, and a host of other darker, more complex characters and storylines. They're making a point.
Deep Space Nine is epic, and very spectacular, and largely enjoyable. I just writhed in my seat whenever it deliberately started to deconstruct a well-established universe, one it shared with other shows, crews and characters simultaneously. You've got Picard telling Lily that "money doesn't exist in the 24th Century" at the same time Dax is taking Quark for all his latinum at the tongo wheel.
And you're absolutely right, it matters when we find things in life. I did most of my self-aware growing up in the late 90s and early 00s and so started out with a healthy dose of optimism from my entertainment which was then suddenly and irrevocably transformed by 9/11. Perhaps that's why I can appreciate both sides of the "light vs. dark" argument, tracing back the stuff I liked before and after such a seismic shift. It's always interesting to go back and double-check opinions on things as well, because we do all change. I hope you still enjoy your fifth Battlestar Galactica re-watch!
I'm grateful for your reply, and for respecting diversity of opinion. That'd make you pretty good company at a party, I reckon, and a fun person to discuss and debate things with!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@JohnnyShoulder I do have a habit of using terms from pop-culture as if everybody knows what I'm on about. Still, if any term transcended the medium... it probably wouldn't be umbasa actually, i think you're right!
@colonelkilgore I love DS9! Easily one of my favourite Treks. Obviously the first few seasons are pure cheese but once you sit through that and get to know and love the characters it's all good. I've spoke to Rog about it a bit in the past so I'm sure he's heard all this from me already!
I love the underbelly aspect of it and the scrutinization of the Federation's utopia. They've always had outright villains in Trek so why not have the shades of grey too. It's not realistic to think that everyone is so evil that they have to be a villain or that the good guys have no foibles. I think as a person that falls in to that grey area myself, I quite like the everyman sort of aspect to it. Well actually I suppose the last few years of every day politics has kind of shown that you are considered evil if you have even a single character flaw but it's not necessarily representative of humanity's development as a whole.
It's all well and good for the Federation to say we don't have money, we have infinite resources etc but up until DS9 we had only really followed the crew of the flagship of the Federation. Naturally their status and experiences are going to be vastly favourable in comparison to someone scrubbing the plasma conduits on a 40 year old freight ship.
A utopia works if you are at the top of it and you embrace it's culture. The moment you want to do something that's not constructive but is just fun for the sake of it, the utopia becomes stifling. There's no freedom unless what you want to do aligns with the greater good.
It's also about the acceptance of cultural differences while calling out the stuff that is categorically wrong. The lines get blurred but why not allow a bit of Dabo gambling and scantily clad women when you can deconstruct a people trafficking ring or establish gender equality on Ferenginar.
Anyway enough rambling! I do think DS9 manages to balance the ideological scrutiny with the uplifting themes of Trek as a whole quite well. One could hope that a middle ground could be found where the smugglers, gamblers and pirates could find a place in a society dominated by scientists, explorers, engineers and writers.
@ralphdibny I knew I couldn’t be alone... love your thoughts on the show too, they mirror my own quite closely. I’ve always seen the Federation as the idealised version of the United States (probably a sci if version of pre 9/11 USA) and that Deep Space 9 was an expose of what it really took behind the scenes to present the idyllic facade. Like you I felt season 1 was a real grind but seem to remember it picking up a bit in season 2... once **** really started hitting the fan in the later seasons though there was some real magic. Shame not that many people stayed around that long.
Also, huge respect for the thoughtful musings on Deep Space Nine presented by @ralphdibny and seconded by Mr. Gameplay King up there. I can't argue with any of it, despite not personally preferring such an approach. Funnily enough (and I promise, not just to be contrarian) I actually reckon the first couple of seasons had some of the show's strongest episodes. I thought "Duet" was a masterpiece, with a brilliant kicker of an ending. Nana Visitor and Harris Yulin knocked it out of the park. Absolutely classic Trek.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@colonelkilgore Coming hot on the heels of such a divergence between our opinions, you'll forgive me if I don't rush out and start buying all of the... [checks Google]... wait, the Soulsborne games?! Okay, maybe we are more different than alike after all, buddy!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@colonelkilgore there are more of us! I know a few DS9 fans in real life too so we are not alone.
@RogerRoger cheers and same to you! I think it goes without saying, but you've more of less said it to me and Kilgore so I should also say that I respect your opinions and find them very interesting. It should be a given though considering the long conversations we've had about this and MGS in the past! I wouldn't engage with you if I didn't enjoy it!
I want to say that the first couple of seasons are more traditional Trek which might be why you enjoy them more. But I'll refer back to my thoughts on the "eras" of Trek and say that the first couple of seasons are better described as classic "90s" Trek. They are more cheesy than the previous TNG era.
@ralphdibny yeah I know one or two actually... it does seem to be the least favourite of the ‘general’ audience though. Most people I know preferred Voyager, I’ve disowned a lot of friends for that reason 😜.
This DS9 chat has kinda made me wanna watch it through again... there is no way I could find the time though as the missus would not wanna watch it and when I ain’t watching stuff with her I’m gaming .
@colonelkilgore haha. Voyager is my least favourite as a whole but generally I do love the later seasons after Seven of Nine joined the show.
I started rewatching the whole series in chronological order with my partner last year. We got through Enterprise, the first 2 seasons of Discovery and half way through TOS before she had to go back to work (we live in different towns). Luckily, watching Enterprise first sold her on the overall marathon - as it did me when it first came out. Enterprise was my intro to the universe and it is a good one.
@ralphdibny That's a fair point, that early Deep Space Nine might've appealed more to me out of a sense of traditionalism. Although I'm only human, so the massive space battles between gorgeous starships in later seasons definitely push my buttons, too! They still look spectacular, even today!
And thanks but... uh-oh, somebody mentioned Voyager. I'm gonna shut up now!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger haha well don't shut up on my account! You know I'm always up for a bit of Trek chat even if it is a Janeway Vs Sisko discussion (as opposed to a Kirk Vs Picard 😅)
@ralphdibny I think my views on Janeway are well-documented in the dedicated topic, but thanks for the offer all the same! Especially since I'm not a big fan of the whole "Character Vs. Character" debates when I love both involved, just for different reasons. Sisko and Janeway both have questionable episodes, but they're also unquestionable badasses, and both have my respect as a result...
[whispers] ...it's just that Janeway has more of it.
***
Speaking of old science fiction shows from the 1990s, my partner and I watched the first couple episodes of The X-Files yesterday and today. It's had some fantastic HD conversion work done, and retains a structure and pacing we both found very engaging. We had nothing more than a vague, pop-culture passing awareness of it in its heyday, but we also share an interest in its overall atmosphere emulating its primary influences, specifically Twin Peaks. Some of it crossed genre lines and landed squarely in horror, which I could just about handle, but I can see any more pushing of that particular envelope becoming a problem for me down the line (as I believe has been discussed around these parts before). Otherwise? Strong stuff, and we're both keen to continue.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger haha yeah me too, the Vs. discussions are always a bit dumb. I think like you, it's hard to pick a winner out of a team of winners!
Glad you got started on the X files! I hope you manage to stick with it, there are a lot of lulls and it's easy to get burned out but it can be a rewarding experience if you manage to get through it (and the spin offs/games - shame these aren't on Disney+). If you do decide to go all in and track down the spin offs then I might be able to help you with a list of episodes that they fit between/before/after! I could do it anyway, just for fun....
Hooray at you finally watching The X-Files@RogerRoger!
Glad to hear you enjoyed watching the first few episodes too! Yeah like @ralphdibny says there can be a few lulls/bad episodes here and there but it's pretty strong most of the time! It'll be interesting to see how far you end up going with it and your thoughts on various episodes/storylines... Be sure to fill us in on how you two do with it!
Obligatory post of praise for WandaVision. Although I had basically put everything together on my own, this week’s episode was a nice exposition to wrap up what the heck has been going on the whole time. Fantastic production quality and they really have set a high bar on these Disney+ shows.
And, as could be predicted, after watching this week’s episode I got a notification that the monthly charge for the D+ service is going up next month. 😅 Glad that I just paid for a whole year!
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@ralphdibny@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Thanks for the X-Files enthusiasm! I'm really keen to see more, especially after I enjoyed the opening so much. Gillian Anderson is consistently wonderful, but I can't decide whether David Duchovny is a terrible actor or a genius; he seems to swing wildly between the two extremes, from scene to scene... heck, sometimes from line to line. But their chemistry is undeniable, and really helps sell the concept, so whatever he's doing seems to be working.
It'll be a slow watch, a small handful of episodes every couple weeks, given that I'm only watching it whenever I visit my partner. He's also somebody who can easily just drop a show but, since we have our own separate Disney+ accounts, I'll probably continue on my own should that happen.
Although, as that well-timed post from @Th3solution just reminded me, there are plenty of other shows I'm supposed to be watching on Disney+ and elsewhere, WandaVision being one of them. I don't tend to encounter many Marvel spoilers, so I think I'll be okay waiting to binge completed seasons of the MCU shows (unlike Star Wars, which I'll try and make the effort to watch weekly) and do so with strong endorsements ringing in my ears. Can't wait to check it out! Need to finish Space Precinct first, and I want to watch The Americans before it disappears from Amazon Prime.
Oh, and specific thanks to Ralph for the offer of an X-Files episode guide. I had no idea it was a full-on franchise! I did look up some information about the PSone FMV game, the research of which revealed the existence of the spin-off shows. I reckon we'll stick to the core show and its movies for now, but will definitely give you a tag if we decide to venture any further!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
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