@johncalmc You’ve pretty much described my average week. Niche earwormy genre into comforting indie rock into trance/rave perfect for the weekend. I should probably just make a playlist with 99 copies of Move Any Mountain by The Shamen and one rogue Nickelback song. Save the hassle.
@Jimmer-jammer That's fine, well, why don't you try Nerija, they are a jazz collective and might be more up your street now that I've introduced you to the genre? Let me know what you think. Got any recommendations for me in return?
"Even in the face of death, the samurai stands unwavering, for honour is a blade sharper than steel".
@nessisonett What do you think of cats like John McLaughlin and Al DiMeola in jazz, who just shred? Think there's a place for them in that genre as well as the more traditional-
style players?
"Even in the face of death, the samurai stands unwavering, for honour is a blade sharper than steel".
I’ve been more and more gravitating to older music. And when I say older, I mean 50’s-80’s. I’m not sure if it’s just me being an “old soul” born in the wrong era, or maybe my upbringing of having my parents expose me to older tunes, or maybe it’s that legitimately modern music objectively sucks. Whatever it is, I just suspect that in 50 years when our kids and grandkids look back and ask the question “What were the big hits of the 2020’s?” that the Spotify (or whatever the means of listening to music will be... probably a microchip in our brains that connects it to some global wireless interface controlled by Google... but I digress) playlist will pull up a bunch of random garbage that no one has really heard of since or cares about anymore. Whereas I can just pull up the list for any one random year from previous decades and find loads of classics — for example, pull up “Best of Rock 1965” and you have enormous monumental hits from The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Simon & Garfunkel, The Who, James Brown, The Beach Boys, Bob Dylan... and on and on with songs you hear over and over like “I Can’t Get No (Satisfaction)” or “My Generation” or “I Got You (I Feel Good)”... songs that still surface in pop culture repeatedly on TV commercials, movies, and are remade by modern artists. And that’s just from one single year! What will we remember about the music that came out in 2021? I can’t even think of one classic hit that we’ll be remembering from the last year. I pulled a list of best rock from 1990-2020 (30 years worth!) and it was full of forgettable garbage. There are a few standouts like Imagine Dragons, Green Day, or Coldplay that might have some songs with staying power into the next few generations, but not much.
Now I realize these thoughts are the epitome of subjective opinion, but objectively speaking, I really feel like there is much less penetration of modern pop music into a ubiquitous societal sphere of influence. Perhaps some of it isn’t a lack of musical talent or creativity available in the last 20 years, rather the change in the way we consume our music. With streaming and YouTube, we just don’t have the widespread exposure to the same radio songs and albums like there was in the past. Perhaps if Spotify and YouTube were a thing back in the 60’s then The Beatles would have been drown out by the chaos of a million other artists vying for airtime. Or, perhaps the tunes of Roddy Ricch and Doja Cat will live on as classic signposts of popular music for the next 50 years that our grandchildren will be playing over and over, but something tells me probably not. I don’t know. Any thoughts?
@Th3solution I honestly think that just as much good music comes out now as back in the day. We’re also in a better place as consumers, in that we have the tools to sift through what’s pushed by the labels. Back in the 50s, people like Elvis were ten-a-penny, you couldn’t move without being swamped by rock and roll copycats. Same as the 80s, Stock Aitken Waterman produced millions of artists who all sounded the same to the point that almost all diversity was wiped out in the UK. We have a lot more access to a lot more varied music without having to keep up with the underground scene. As much as I’m not a big fan of Pitchfork, websites like that will show you that there’s a whole lot of music these days which is both popular and groundbreaking.
@nessisonett I think you might be right, and initially I felt like current music would be even better than the stuff of yesteryear due to increased access to technology, things like GarageBand and even Dreams where the barrier to entry is negligible for everyone to become a music creator. More music means more quality, I would suspect. However, that theory just doesn’t seem to translate into my reality. My personal experience is that I can’t seem to find any current artists that are producing transcendent quality. But it’s a needle-in-a-haystack type of issue too.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@nessisonett (Sorry for the double post 😄) And really, it’s the same phenomenon with TV, movies, and video games well. We have so much access to entertainment now that the quality products are “better” (if we can label art in such a way) but are drowned out by mediocrity. I mean, is Super Mario Bros 3 better than Assassin’s Creed Valhalla? Heck, is The Legend of Zelda better than Days Gone? Is Casablanca better than Tenet? Is Modern Family better than The Brady Bunch? I feel like the best creative products of each generation are probably of similar quality, and likely even better than prior generations due to the evolution of technology, but there’s just so much more of poor quality that it makes it hard to judge.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution Oh absolutely, while there are probably more great albums, TV shows, movies, games etc, there’s a lot more mediocrity. But then that might not even be true as the whole Atari situation and the many dreadful licensed NES games speak to a level of over saturation back then too.
@Th3solution I like this topic and really enjoyed your long post above. I feel the same way, and have come to a few conclusions of my own, be they rational or otherwise.
I think MTV played it's part in killing off talented musical groups. It used to be how well you can play that mattered, and MTV helped shift this towards looks and attitude over musicianship. If you dig up some old videos, pre mtv, and watch guys like Ritchie Blackmore tearing it up, heavily influenced by classical music, students of their craft, it's amazing. I can't find anyone now who is as well versed as many guitarists of the fifties through the eighties.
I think another reason might be, and this applies to far more than musicianship, into learned crafts over all fields, that we all spend more time with our gadgets these days, be it computers, phones, or whatever modern distraction tickles your fancy. This is time we humans used to spend strumming a guitar or playing a harmonica or singing or doing any other number of things. I feel like modern technology distractions might have led us astray from pastimes that required us to develop any skills.
Not just in music, either. When was the last time you saw a neighborhood football game? How many kids still read books for enjoyment? Show me a kid who knows how to whittle.
I don't know, just some random out-there thoughts. It's possible I'm not in the best frame of mind as I write this.
@johncalmc
I was quite into the electroswing for a while, there are some really fun songs out there. Mostly I tend to stick with Synthwave and music in that sort of genre these days.
@Th3solution
I feel like it's an inevitable byproduct of having a much larger world population along with it being easier to publish music. There will be a lot more awful music out there, making anything amazing more difficult to find as you say.
The big companies realise what's popular often isn't the same as being good. An image that inspires younger listeners can make a fortune on its own regardless of talent or a passion to create brilliant music. That's why we have shows like X-Factor which has never actually been about music.
@Jimmer-jammer Yeah, I like that point about music being a reflection of society, rather than the other way around as I was thinking about it where society’s global talent seems to be waning. Rather the talent and output is out there, it’s just in a form that reflects itself in a frankly more short-sighted and distractible way.
And to honest, going back to the classical and baroque music, the same could be said that even the modern musical classics would be considered shallow and cursory by someone living in the 1700’s.
It goes right along with what @LordSteev astutely points out that the rising generation has no time, energy, or interest in the mundane things like learning to play an instrument, much less compose a symphony like Mozart at age 8. Perhaps if little Wolfgang Amadeus had a PS5 and an iPad, he’d never have ventured into learning and writing music. Of maybe he would have produced the most awesome musical levels in Dreams, who knows. But I definitely agree that, for better or worse, the pool of music is larger but the actual number of people who are well-trained and practiced in musical performance is probably much less than 40 or 50 years ago.
And the corporate angle is definitely a factor, as pointed out by @LieutenantFatman — The struggling artist making his way in the world is likely to never be discovered based on talent alone. Money makes this world go around so he or she has to be marketable. The Idol shows were designed with that in mind; that is that talent is only part of the equation with becoming a pop star.
@Kidfried Yeah, I don’t get the comparison to things like the X Factor because it’s not like The Gerogerigegege were turning up on Top of the Pops. You always have to look for music you love and the fact is that it’s easier now more than ever to do so. When artists like Weatherday can put a post on r/emo advertising their album on Bandcamp and it ends up completely blowing up, that’s a real win. There are whole genres which only came into being recently but people just seem to want to live in the past.
@Jimmer-jammer Beatlemania’s probably directly comparable to the insane fandom surrounding BTS and wider K-Pop at the minute. While the Beatles went on to create incredibly varied and fantastic music, their original album is essentially boy-band music of its time. Personally I’d say that even The Beatles’ worst stuff is better than 99% of BTS but the point still stands. I can guarantee that people in their 30s and 40s back when The Beatles first came onto the scene were moaning about the good old days and how music these days wouldn’t last the same way that the music from their childhood has.
@Kidfried@nessisonett Hey my friends, I’m sorry if I came off as disrespectful and I meant no offense to the talented and hard working artisans and musicians of today. I think I struck a nerve there and it’s not my intent to pass judgment.
I was flabbergasted as to where the discussion became one which gave the impression that there was no good music to be found nowadays, so I had to go back and re-read so I could try and correct any miscommunication I may had done. As the discussion crystallized, it became clearer to my mind that my initial [admittedly harsh] observations were really mostly speaking to popular music. In other words the music that one doesn’t have to go out of his/her way to find. So the comparison was: pop music now vs pop music in past decades. Furthermore, I am very much isolated to my experience here in the U.S. I can’t speak to Europe, Asia, Africa, or elsewhere. I forget sometimes this is an international community. When I stated my aforementioned contemplations, I’m looking at Billboard top 100 lists, not the hidden jewels at the live performance coffee houses around town.
I will definitely reiterate my qualifying statement that these have been my purely subjective experiences and opinions alone, and they are admittedly ignorant. I am not a musician and I am ...’lazy’ I guess is the right word, as it relates to musical discovery (but again pop music shouldn’t need to be sought out and discovered... it’s by definition ’popular’). However, even in my casual perusal of music, I have made efforts to stretch myself to different unique experiences; for example I’ve tried to follow up on recommendations I see in this thread as well as those I receive from my in-person friends. (I literally spent a hour following YouTube links listening to concert piano music 2 days ago at the strong recommendation of a friend). I’ve spent a little time browsing the indies scene and on apps like SoundCloud. I’ve had text exchanges with friends back and forth where we send some of our favorite songs back and forth trying to expose each other to some great tunes we think the other might have never heard but would like. Unfortunately at the end of the day I don’t find a whole lot that blows me over on a regular basis through these methods, although there are some beauties out there. But as I see the response to my pontificating ramblings above, I should have never tried to speak as if this was representative of society at large. It is my experience alone and I take full responsibility for the close-mindedness represented in the opinion.
I will say that the assertion that I might be too unambitious enough to actually find the fantastic treasure trove of transcendent music being made today makes my point exactly. The fact it has to be searched for means it is unlikely to yield as much direct influence for generations to come. I’m not saying this is just or right, just that it gives off a sense that the music today isn’t as memorable as in years past. Again — this is not a criticism of the music itself nor its adoring fans. It just begs the question — why don’t we all know about this music? Why is the current Billboard top 100 filled with forgettable (....trying to not use an offensive word here...) rabble?
One of my character flaws is to be hopelessly lost in analytic thought and observational contemplation, especially as it relates to societal trends I see and so sometimes when I describe the world through my own eyes it probably comes across as judgmental (especially when I use such inflammatory words such as “sucks” and “garbage”) and I apologize for that. By no means do I claim to have any true knowledge about such things, especially music. I just like to do thought experiments and come to interesting conclusions. I’m indeed sorry that my initial post came across as otherwise. But I think if you’ll read back through my first post you’ll find that I wasn’t criticizing music such as that found in the recesses of the internet made by those who have toiled to come up with innovative and inspirational styles; rather my issue lies with the heavily accessible and popular music of today — that which is promoted, commercialized, and monetized. My adoration for older music got me thinking “What will our grandchildren say about the music of 2020?” ....and that’s where this whole discussion in my mind started. (And I’d actually love to hear your opinions on that. Not what should they think about today’s music, rather what will they say and feel about our music? Think about it. They will only know about what leaves a lasting legacy, whether that’s right or wrong, that’s reality)
I still contest that the most popular song from say, Weatherday, will not be in the hearts and ears of our grandchildren in 50 years. Maybe I’ll be wrong about that. However that is by no means an indictment of the music, nor of the artists, nor of society and the fans who like them now, nor of the society or music fans who are ignorant of Weatherday in the future. I’m not placing a value judgement on any of it and I don’t mean to say it’s not worthwhile music. I mean that it will unfortunately get lost in the sea of other music within the next several years (if not months). Nevertheless, I wouldn’t be surprised if it may serve as influential DNA to inspire some popular music in 2060.
And to clarify - I sure hope I didn’t come across as elitist, disparaging the fact that anyone with a computer can generate music and that it should be reserved for only those who can afford a grand piano or a cello along with expensive music lessons. That is absolutely not my opinion in the slightest. It is a great victory of our time to have access to music creation. Absolutely agree. Not sure why I didn’t make that clearer from the start.
Sorry for the long post but it bothered me that I upset you so. Cultural differences and personal tastes aside, I respect my Push Square brothers and sisters and don’t want to offend.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Kidfried Thank you so much for your reply. And hey, it’s all good. We all have our passions and bristle a bit if anyone become flippant toward that which we hold dear. And to be clear, I’m not looking down on modern music in a condemnatory way, I simply just haven’t found much I liked. I took a while to respond to your post because I wanted to give some of the artists you mentioned a good listen so I could perhaps be the least hypocritical as possible. I would consider myself more open-minded than average.
Although I’m not personally partial to any of the music I sampled over several hours today, I now see more completely the position you’re coming from. And I think we’re more or less on common ground in the analysis of modern music but we’re sort of talking about two different things. One being popularity and universal appeal, and the another being artistic merit and influence. I’m not especially qualified to talk about the latter, and I merely am an observer of the former.
I actually thought a lot about the applicable comparison to gaming also, but you said it even better than I could. It really is a difference between the perspective of enthusiasts vs. that of casual consumers. Like Sammy has always said, we here at Push Square exist in a bubble. We often question why FIFA and COD outsell the excellent smaller titles by a hundred fold. The world at large doesn’t see things the way we, the enthusiasts do. So as far as music, I’m probably what you’d call a ‘filthy casual’ who is so dense that he enjoys the same stupid Call of Duty type rehashes over and over.
And as it relates to this comparison and also that idea of taste — I came to the realization that part of consuming art based media goes so much deeper than the surface level of the experience. As human beings experiencing a work of art there exists an enormous psychological factor that is very difficult to quantify. I thought actually about our recent discussion of the “best” (already a poor word choice there) PS4 1st party games and you effectively broke down your feelings about MediEvil and Infamous SS. I believe you even admitted that MediEvil had technical shortcomings and a dated presentation that didn’t impact your overall enjoyment because of a difficult-to-define factor for which the old mascot games resonate with you. Infamous looked nice graphically and ran smooth, but lacked the ‘je ne sais quoi” and it felt rote, empty, and repetitive to you. (Sounds eerily similar to some of my descriptions of modern pop music which I’ve been know to criticize by saying “this all sounds the same” and “it just doesn’t excite me”) Newer and more innovative production may not necessarily mean ‘better’ when factoring in the personal experience factor. Sometimes our feelings toward something is tainted by some personal circumstance in which we first experienced it. This is no truer in any field of art than it is in music. Many things sound good to us because they conjure up memories and feelings.
As an example — I was listening to some Frank Sinatra the other day (not something I do very often but I was in a mood). Not sure if he’s as well known abroad, but in the U.S. he is basically like a musical god of jazzy pop/lounge music in the 1940’s and 50’s. Despite having ‘only’ 10 million monthly listeners on Spotify (which is incidentally roughly the same as Tyler the Creator) he’s one of the best selling artists of all time and considered widely as one of the most popular and influential musical artists of the 20th Century. Interestingly he never learned to read music, apparently. Anyway, back to my story — I was enjoying a song of his that I heard played on the Umbrella Academy soundtrack and was sure that I heard him sing off-key during a section in the middle. I’m not a musician but he definitely hit a couple sour notes and sounded flat to even my untrained ears. But yet, I thoroughly enjoyed the song and have listened to it several times since. It has a wonderful nostalgic quality and makes me think of my grandparents and great-grandparents and the song has a deep personal message to me. Is Ed Sheeran a better vocalist? Probably. Is his music pushing the genre forward more in the modern age? Of course. Do I personally enjoy Sheeran more than Sinatra? I don’t think so. Just like you enjoy MediEvil better than Infamous.
It’s funny as I’m an enormous hypocrite because here I am trying to defend the musical oldies, yet I always wonder what in the world all of you people see in these old retro sprite-based and platforming Nintendo and Sega video games. I just don’t seem to understand the allure and feel it a waste of time revisiting most of those retro games. I don’t have a nostalgic hook and I just would rather experience the latest groundbreaking and forward-pushing experiences and I feel the talent and capabilities of modern gaming studios and their armies of artists and programmers are able to produce such better content, generally speaking. But I know that is an unpopular opinion in a lot of circles. [...bolts the doors and boards up the windows as I see the pitchforks cresting the horizon...]
So I fully admit to an intangible and sometimes indefensible adoration of Elton John over Shawn Mendes, Journey over Maroon 5, Stevie Nicks over Lady Gaga, Madonna over Billie Eilish, Michael Jackson over Drake... I’m sure on a granular level the modern artists have really improved on techniques and sounds from their progenitors, but to me their music lacks the personality and panache of the pioneers in their respective spheres. A lot of it sounds gimmicky (I’m mostly referring to the Billboard hits) But again, mine is a subjective assessment. Most people would probably agree with you and find listening to old Eagles and Fleetwood Mac to be boring and uninspiring, but I love it! (And apparently 40 million listeners on Spotify agree with me)
As far as how to define “pop” or “popular” music, I think it is hard to define, as you stated, given the world order now. And what would constitute “legendary” as far as musical influence. I was asking the thought-question of what music would influence culture and permeate society the most, and I think you were speaking to which music would influence the future of music and inspire new musical direction. That’s the only explanation I can come up with in my head where there is any comparison of “To Pimp a Butterfly” with “Thriller” because otherwise, the two are just not even in the same stratosphere as far as effect on all facets of culture and widespread popularity (and certainly commercial success).
But we can agree to disagree on that. It doesn’t really matter. Even if Vampire Weekend gets lost in the forgotten recesses of music during this era, it makes them no less talented and you and their followers can enjoy them no less fervently now. And likewise, no matter how cringe-inducing Queen is, I will still enjoy their songs, and they’ll keep surfacing in movies, TV shows, and pop culture. It’s okay to disagree on those opinions. That’s what makes the world go ‘round!
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Kidfried Oh no, I listened to that last week and really didn’t like it! I wasn’t a fan at all of Black Midi’s Schlagenheim either though so I just don’t think this new brand of post punk is to my tastes at all.
@Kidfried Well said and I really agree with mostly everything there. And so I guess we’re at the same basic stance in a lot of ways. You’re expressing my thoughts and observations from your own perspective.
Specifically, it’s well put that culture does move extremely fast now and hardly has time to get foothold before it evolves again. Progress in a lot of our facets of life moves at breakneck speeds so any one movement hardly has time to breathe before it’s replaced by the next iteration. And I guess that’s what this time frame will be known for, and you termed it “revolutionary” I believe, which mirrors the technological flurry of progress at the same time. And honestly cultural evolution will only get faster. I can’t believe how quickly just social media consumption changes almost monthly and a lot of working adults just don’t have the mental energy to keep up with it all. The music industry is directly affected by that change. (Although it’s interesting that a lot of older songs also have found a second wind through Tik-Tok as well). I don’t think we’ll see an album be #1 on the charts for 2 straight years again.
Interesting listen with that new Black Country, New Road album. I only listened to the first 3 songs so far. That first one sounds like it would be right at home on the Persona 6 soundtrack!
And Umbrella Academy is pretty decent, kind of a dysfunctional X-men type of show, but I like the characters, production quality, and musical soundtrack. It has modern music and older stuff like Sinatra, The Doors, and Queen too. I think it’s somewhat inspired by the Guardians of the Galaxy and Marvel approach to digging up the older musical hits to reign in an older crowd to mix with the younger.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
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