@LieutenantFatman An overwhelmingly large percentage of playstation users are your every day casuals or people that just play call of duty, NBA 2k/Madden, and Fortnite or some other live service. $ony can see statistics and numbers that we can’t see, but using indications like social media and people i know, most people that have consoles or playstation aren’t the kind of gamers that we are.
@nomither6@LieutenantFatman I believe there’s a difference between the “large percentage of their users” and the “large percentage of their revenue generators”
Does Sony make more revenue from the Push Square elite, who buy dozens of games a year, buy every first-party game day 1, subscribe to PS+ Premium, own a Portal and 4 controllers, own a PS5 and a PS5 Pro, watch all the first-party based TV and movies, and then buy them also on Blu Ray, and watch every one of their State of Play live streams with baited breath? Or do they make more from little Timmy who spends $400 a year on V-bucks?
Honestly I don’t know the answer to that question. The Push Square user spends more at their store and in their ecosystem and drives more traffic to them and their advertising partners. But 30% of every dollar that little Timmy spends is pure profit for which they invested virtually nothing and are merely skimming off the top.
We know from data that the company makes more money from the few top games’ MTX than from sales of most of their AAA games. But that’s because of the grand scale of those users, like nomither says. But per capita, I think the Push Square user is more valuable as a person to keep happy because he pumps more into the ecosystem pound for pound than the person who buys their PS5 for 2 or 3 games only.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@LtSarge This is 100% what I feel. Look at Virtuous' Oblivion and MGS3 Delta. Cheaper and faster than Bluepoints work. Sure you won't get a 90+ on meta but a 84-88 is strong enough. I disagree with it but it was clear.
2XKO laid off it's staff but Riot China has announced job openings. It's why I believe HM is safe.
@Metonymy A very well balanced and insightful post, as always sir.
I’ve been upset and I’m trying to calm myself with some semblance of their logic here; trying to understand the strategy of Sony’s execs. If they didn’t want a remake/single player studio why did they buy them in the first place a few years ago. What’s the wisdom in that? Either shutting the studio was a poor decision, or buying the studio was a poor decision. Either way, they are screwing up. Help me get my faith restored in management.
Or do you feel like gaming changed that much in the last 4-5 years?
…We all know tomorrow the sun will still rise. The newspaper will still get delivered at 6am. Bob the neighbor will still wash his car every Sunday… This doesn't directly affect our lives. Let's stop pretending it does. THIS CHANGES NOTHING!!!! LIFE GOES ON!!!!
This is mostly true, but as I’m watching some of my mates be laid off in other industries due to corporate mismanagement (not in the games industry) and a world economy crumble due the poor decisions of a select few people in charge, I can’t help but see the parallels and I’m beginning to lose what little faith I had in management and upper leadership in general (not just within Sony)
@StitchJones Wholeheartedly agree with that. When I first read about this, I was definitely disappointed. But it's not like there's a shortage of great games to play right now and are coming out in the future.
@cainhurst94 Indeed, not to mention Sony's focus now on smaller titles in between all the larger ones (such as Sons of Sparta). By doing this, Sony will be delegating the costs, and therefore the risk, to the third-party studios, which means more creative projects will arise from this approach.
@StitchJones Well, yeah of course. I think we’re on the proverbial Hedonic treadmill of human nature. I mean there’s coping mechanisms psychologically to hard times whereby acceptance comes about and people cope in different ways, in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. It’s how people survive things much worse than layoffs and economic hardships. Humans can subsist through war, totalitarian regimes, slavery, abuse, and so forth.
Depending, repeated adversity can lead to something called ‘learned helplessness’ and can look like coping, but makes our brains normalize adversity, like such treatment is simply part of what is supposed to happen. It can help people survive and have perceived happiness, but it can also backfire. It’s what makes people stay in cults and abusive relationships. An extension of this, less melodramatic and more apropos to what’s been on my mind lately, is what’s been referred to as the ‘Stockholm Syndrome of Everyday Life’, and why people defend systems which treat them unfairly, such as the company they work for or the government they live in.
Anyway, I find the discussion interesting but I’ll not dampen the mood further. In fact I need to jump back into the Forbidden West and inject a little of my own copium. 😄
@Th3solution I do think gaming has changed a lot over the last number years. Free to play, live service, mobile, yearly sports titles…largely dominate the charts. Management has the fiduciary duty to essentially follow the money, so while I may not like how that looks sometimes, it just funnels more wind under my wings to put my money where my mouth is. In a world driven by greed, and increasingly directed by mob rule, I think the small wins are that much more meaningful.
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” -C.S. Lewis
There's always multiple factors to look on when it comes to anything in life worth it's salt. There is way to much to say when it comes to the current state of gaming, and debating is always good and healthy, I've read through the last 3 pages and seen some really good points brought up, many that I agree with.
Ultimately whether we like it or not, whether we want to see it or not, we live in a world, where the rich want to be richer, and the gaming industry, the "big" boys at the top, Sony, MS, Ubisoft, Nintendo, ect. They now only care about one thing. How do we extract the most money and time out of us, the player base. That's it, that's all the care about. The guys in the board rooms do not care one bit if we think their making the best games ever or if we're all enjoying ourselves in some gaming utopia of amazing games we all want as long as we are all satisfied enough to still be spending money on their products.
I know there's loads of analytics and major cooperate board meetings, schedules, budgets, trends that drive their beliefs and at the end of the day they do what they thinks going to make them the most money. For some reason we gamers still believe this is the 80's and 90's where gamers where making games for gamers and profit was if you make a million or 2 on that and everyone enjoys it then everyone goes home happy. Sadly overtime like anything in life when the "business minded" business degree money men, leaches and powers that be, see anyone making any sort of money then they want a part and not even that, these type of people are not satisfied with 1 million profit.
We live in a world where if I make 1 million profit doing something but another guy makes 50million do the same thing, I'm not successful. Or atleast I'm not as successful as they are, or as successful as I could be. There's been so many games now that get classes as failures because they didn't sell well. Not that failures because there bad games, in fact many failed games are actually good games but they didn't make the profit that the company was expecting.
The people in relevant positions within these companies are not longer gamers. They say they are of course. But there not. Not in the way we are gamers. You know how you can tell when a games made by gamers, it looks like Tomb Raider in the 90s, any final fantasy game up to 14, The Witcher 3, Mass Effect, Gears of War, Hall, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Diablo 1 and 2, Resident Evil, this list goes on and on because we used to have so many games made for gamers by gamers who knew they would make a little bit of money doing what they loved. We have for 15 years now had games made by people who want to make as much money as possible, so Just like anything in life, movies, series, music, hell even food products are at it, less qaulity, less substance, less in size but more in price so maximise PROFIT. We don't care what we sell, them idiots will still buy it because they always have. That how these cooperations think about us, you see it in every walk of life, houses built here in the UK are made cheaper but are more expensive, its just the way of the world sadly.
Yes we as gamers suffer, they are all chasing the Fortnite, Roblox players, because them guys are spending £10 to £20 a week sometimes and believe it or not there is now more of them types of gamers than there is like me anymore. The younger generation for example nearly all play Roblox or Fortnite as their main game, hell the majority of people I know who game are casual CoD, Gta, Fortnite, Fifa, 2k players. Why do you think we're all on forums online like this because we come here to talk about our passion for gaming and there's not a lot of people out there who play like we do. Atleast not in my experience. I have about 4 or 5 people who I can really talk to about games, yet sports or movies or the weather I can talk passionately to almost anyone because they all have that interest too.
There's also another side to this. We single player gamers who enjoy gaming are actually at home playing our games, games in general that are good Just don't get shouted about as much because a lot of people play them and then move on and don't go online or make videos to rant about how much they enjoyed something. But there's also this group, in any walk of life who when they don't like something are louder than every one else. It's why we see so much negative stuff online, we as humans are drawn to it. So because there's so much more of the negative stuff, people in general just think oh well that's bad, because I haven't seen anything good about that game only bad. Yet everyone who's enjoying it is for the most part staying silent.
The big gaming companies have for far to long got away with it, slowly but surely we are seeing a backlash from it now though. Many companies are putting out failing products, then blaming quite funnily gamers. This shows how out of touch these people are, they believe their own hype, they believe they are the golden goose. Ubisoft and many other companies have been their own downfall. Gamers will literally tell you what they want. Look at BG3 and Expedition 33 as examples. But yet the companies see only a limited amount of money so they still don't heed the call. They just believe their data. And this is the funny thing about data, we see it all the time, sports is a prime example, we see data driving sports now more than ever but data doesn't always equate to real life. How many sports teams have all the data but still loose to a unlucky pass or something happening that they didn't expect or the data didn't predict.
These companies will continue this trend for almost all of time now. The money men are involved so that means money is the most important factor. I know money always is but what I mean is the people running gaming and making the decisions don't love gaming, they love money and it's naive to believe other wise.
As to the blueprint closure, it's a loss for Playstation in my opinion. But will it be the end of Playstation, it certainly will not be. Companies are just basically mini versions of governments and what they do won't always be liked or even understood by us "peasants" but you can guarantee your life that they have a plan, they've done this for a reason and one that benefits them.
For the most part, I just play the games that I want. I have no interest in the politics, the online heresy, the mass hysteria or widespread disconnect and discontent that people seem to feel for games and gaming in general. I play what I want and I enjoy what I get out of gaming. No one's going to tell me otherwise. If a company wants to make a game and I don't think I'll like it, then I'm not buying it, good for anyone who does but I'm also not going to whinge about it. If it makes money then well done and if it doesn't then I'm not going to cry about it either. It's not like it's going into my pocket so what the hell do I care if someone makes £1 or £50 million.
If someone wants to make a game with a story or a character that in my opinion is a load of crap, then go on, knock yourself out, I'm not going to act like I'm mad that someone hasn't made their game, which they created for me and my tastes.
@graymamba That’s exciting. With the way this generation is panning out, I’m beginning to think it’s time for me to jump on board the Pro train. I have a great TV but it’s not HDMI 2.1. Think it’s worth upgrading still?
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” -C.S. Lewis
@Metonymy obviously hdmi 2.1 would be beneficial in terms of 120hz and VRS but I honestly think it would be worth it anyway just for the fidelity. 60 fps on fidelity with ray tracing… no downside imho.
@graymamba Thanks! Feels like the right time. I was going to upgrade the TV but it’s still going strong so I’m leaning towards the Pro but I’d be disappointed if there was no real discernible difference due to my current set up. Love to hear that it’s beginning to deliver on its promise.
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” -C.S. Lewis
@Metonymy I would recommend getting a tv with hdmi 2.1 in the first instance. I got one a couple of years ago and have been very impressed. I consistently get 4K 60fps and then 120fps on a few games, even when the game doesn't support it. Don't recall any games that suffer from performance issues either. Makes me think that I don't need a Pro anytime soon, but obviously everyone will be different in that regard.
Life is more fun when you help people succeed, instead of wishing them to fail.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
@Metonymy As someone who has both and absolutely loves both my HDMI 2.1 OLED with VRR as well as my PS5 Pro, I think ideally you’d upgrade and get both. I have my base PS5 hooked up to a smaller and lower end non 2.1 4K LCD TV and honestly the picture difference isn’t drastic but the quality of the experience is significantly less on my PS5 set up due to slower load times, lesser frame rates noticeable on some games, and less robust or absent ray tracing. I now almost never even turn on my base PS5. Even if the big TV is unavailable, I just play on my Portal rather than turn on the old TV and old console.
As I’ve mentioned before, if you take into account the extra 1.2 TB of drive space the value proposition starts to look better for the Pro. Now with PSSR update next month, there’s a sudden jump in the value of the Pro also. I’ve already grown spoiled by not having to choose between performance and fidelity. And I am a big fan of ray tracing. I feel like it adds so much to the way a game looks and feels, so for me I wanted the machine that can more consistently perform that. I’ve only had the Pro for about 6 months, so I’m still getting accustomed but it’s a purchase that I’m getting happier and happier with. And the fact that PS6 release is rumored to be pushed out makes the Pro an even better value proposition.
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
Thanks! Definitely have some things to mull over as it’s hard for me to financially justify upgrading both at this point. Ramageddon (thanks colonel!) has me leaning towards the Pro but then the benefits of a new TV alone are no small potatoes. This new PSSR update has really peaked my interest. Ahh!
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” -C.S. Lewis
@Metonymy They’re both a luxury, to be sure. Taking finances into account, upgrading to the Pro is probably less of a blow to your budget if you sell your base PS5. I’m too lazy to have sold mine and I had convinced myself that I wanted two gaming setups (which as I mentioned has turned out to be superfluous with my Portal), but the logical thing to do is recoup about half the cost of the Pro that way. I think GameStop was going to give me around $200 for my PS5 and so the Pro was going to run me around $500. Selling it on your own through eBay or FB marketplace will net you much more; a quick glance shows many people are asking around $300-350 for theirs. So if you have the patience to sell it yourself then you make a lot more.
Also when I was considering the GameStop trade-in route, there was issue of wanting my old unit to do the transfer process to port the data over to the Pro, which is a lot faster than downloading everything from the internet and the cloud again. It was going to be complicated and a bit cumbersome. But the transfer process if you still have your PS5 is fairly smooth.
Of course you could do the same and sell your current TV, but chances are that wouldn’t get as much value back and there’s a real wide range of what you can spend on a new one. Maybe roughly $500 for a decent one on the lower end and then sky’s the limit if you want the best and a really large screen
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.”
@Th3solution Yeah, I’d definitely be selling my base model. I put an extra terabyte of space in it too. That said, I’d likely be selling it to a friend so they’ll be getting a deal. Still, every little bit helps. Pro’s are over $1000 in Canada 😬
I know you’ve been very positive on the portal. I finally got to try one recently and I’m very impressed with it. Sony’s definitely on to something there. I just wish it wasn’t remote play only.
“Reason is the natural order of truth; but imagination is the organ of meaning.” -C.S. Lewis
@Metonymy it really depends on the current tv, current budget and your own preferences. And if you upgrade one, if you'd still be likely to want to upgrade the other in the future to get the best of both worlds.
Having no hdmi 2.1 means 60fps max, no unlocked frames, no VRR (VRR really makes games super smooth once above a certain FPS output) things like that, and those features, to me, have made games feel so much better. I never got on with the previous "locked 60fps" modes in games because they looked worse, and most of them didn't actually feel realistic in motion or had fps dips anyway. They were supposedly 'smoother' but they felt wrong at looked wrong. But now with the pro pushing higher unlocked FPS paired with VRR I am finally converted to higher frame rates, but mostly now the Pro is providing that experience whilst still looking like quality mode on ps5, at least. As i'd still choose quality mode (or 40fps vrr balanced) on base PS5 for most games.
But apart from those things, the pro alone will generally upgrade visual resolution and have PSSR avaliable, it's just it will be locked in at 30/60 depending on the game and tv capabilities and you might not be getting the best of everything with some modes or features locked off, depending on the specific game and the modes available. And if the tv is at its limit anyway, you might not get the true value out of the upgrade. It is so dependant on your own priorities, tastes and current set up, though.
What is your current tv? Age, Size etc. I know when I moved from non-oled to OLED it made games look much better on the base consoles, and VRR being available on 2.1 became one of my favourite features because it handles frame issues on PS5 to some extent, and it handles the higher powered unlocked frame rates on ps5 pro to a great extent, giving you some really smooth looking and feeling gameplay.
So, yeah... upgrading either the tv or the console will see improved quality, but i'd honestly lean towards upgrading the TV first, (depending on what you currently have) because the PS5 is still a great console and will also use some use of hdmi 2.1 features. But if your TV is still pretty good quality, but simply doesn't have 2.1, then maybe upgrading the console would be enough for now.
Tldr:
go for a tv with hdmi 2.1 if you want a smoother experience and better frames rate options and future proofing.
Go for a 4k OLED if you want the real visual pop upgrade (mini LED and other tech is catching up though, so you'd be vest seeing them for yourself (some brands like TCL and Hisense are providing some great midrange stuff these days with all the bells and whistles anyway)
upgrade to Ps5 pro if you want the upped resolution and fancy graphical tweaks, better performance or a mode with pretty stable 60fps that will still look like the quality mode on ps5.
(And yes, I realise now that you said the tv was already great, so maybe lean back towards pro again 😅 as long as you do plan to go 2.1 in the future as that is when you will start to see the real bonus upgrades and it start to feel even more worth it. Still it'd be cool to hear what you prefer when gaming to really know what would be best for you. Is is purely looks (rt, lighting, immersion) performance, stability, pure resolution and what you'd most want upgraded if you could pick from the features mentioned?)
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