Topic: The Last Of Us Part II - OT (No Spoilers)

Yeah, Joel is obviously supposed to be a very conflicted "hero". The game acknowledges as much with this sequel and the way Ellie behaves towards him. I have no problem with that. I like a good character that has very grey morals, but the game shouldn't expect me to then automatically root for him and love him like you would with a squeaky-clean archetype more easily. The first game is supposed to do a lot of the heavy lifting there of course, and I'll say it worked on me for the most part at the time... until the ending. I can understand why Joel did what he did, but I don't like it. I don't think he's a good person. And for him to then actively lie to Ellie about it afterwards is what solidified him to me as a well-written character, but one I don't have a fondness for. For him to do everything in the name of Ellie and his selfish need for that dynamic only to betray her trust right after is such a hypocritical stance to take for a person. Great writing, but something I couldn't look past on a personal level. To then have the major event that sets all this in motion be his death is perfectly good storytelling, but again, to expect me then to still have that level of fondness and admiration for the character feels presumptuous to me. Especially considering it was their choice to end the previous game on such a dour note where the main protagonist comes off incredibly poorly. The fact that I can even discuss that particular moment at such length is a testament to the great writing of that ending (and why I mentioned I loved it), but the second game seems to try to ignore the damage it did to his character by expecting you to be horrified at his death.

That's probably as well-worded as I can write it in terms of why Joel's death didn't hit for me in the way the game seemingly wants it to. I acknowledge it did for many others, presumably like yourself, but it does set me off on a very different note with this story like you said. I don't feel an internal need to avenge the death of someone I'm not upset about dying. I'll try not to fall into repetition, so yeah, that's exactly why that first half of the game felt like such a drag and antithesis to how I felt playing. The game is trying to fight my instincts at every point to make me care where there's just no room for me to. Like I said, I felt the locales and setpieces were largely uninspired too. Moments of greatness like the confrontation with Nora or the chase in the subway splattered through many, many hours of roaming around same-y looking areas on a wild goose chase I don't care for. I'm sure that my motives not being aligned with Ellie at all did a lot to make me start resenting her and her narrative sections. By the end, I didn't feel differently about Ellie at all. I just was more and more annoyed with her over time.

But you were right for the second half! I enjoyed it a lot more. Despite knowing that Abby is equally capable of all kinds of monstrous things in her past, I felt a lot more sympathetic to her. Unlike Ellie, I also felt like she was growing as a person and actively trying to become her best self. Aided by her companions or not, she started making more and more of the morally right decisions. It was a very interesting dynamic, and one that I find way easier to empathise with than Ellie going out on a rampage. She also came across to me as a far more mature character in how she views the world and the people in it. She seemed to have actual morals, to have good things that drive her and to have a dream. Ellie had none of that. I'll grant that we weren't with Abby in the moment where was consumed by rage, so maybe I would've viewed her very differently if I experienced that from her point of view as well. But I can only go by what the game shows me, and that's a notably more likable character who puts others' needs before her own.

I became quite fond of Abby's group of misfits (excluding Mel, who was a pain in my butt). I found them all to have fun, interesting personalities and felt genuinely sad when I knew each of their fates. It's the emotion that the game wanted me to have for people like Joel and Jesse as well, but only came out in this latter part where I felt far more engaged. It didn't feel like the game was telling me how to feel anymore and going against my nature. It just let me play and organically start loving the characters I came across. The highlights there are by far and away Yara and Lev. The dynamic they have with Abby is the similar father/daughter dynamic they used in the first game, and it worked on me here all the same. The only exception is that these two are clearly a lot more capable at fending for themselves than Ellie ever was in the first game. I found Lev's plight to be genuinely heartbreaking, with honestly one of my favourite moments of dialogue regarding trans representation I've seen. I'll repeat it here since it's such a minor moment I doubt you can pin-point exactly what I'm talking about:

Lev: "Did you hear what they called me?"
Abby: "Yes."
Lev: "Do you want to ask me anything?"
Abby: "Do you want me to?"
Lev: "No."

That very short exchange probably didn't mean a lot to many people, but I found it incredibly gut-wrenching while heartwarming at the same time that he finally found someone who accepts him as he is. And more importantly, had absolutely zero questions about the situation. A great piece of dialogue writing that has stuck with me ever since that short moment. And that’s exactly the type of character moments Abby gets that make her all the more likable to me. She’s more than a person on a quest for revenge, which Ellie never was in the first half. The way their relationship evolves too to the point they become partners felt incredibly earned. Something I never felt with Ellie’s relationships with Jesse and Dina who are just introduced here, but we don’t really see anything about their dynamics develop in a meaningful way. You do have the opening with Dina where they give them some good character moments, but once again, it felt more like the game telling me: “By the way, this is your girlfriend” than it felt like I chose to love her like I did with Lev.

All of this really just reverted completely how many people feel regarding the characters to me. It’s funny. I struggled with the Ellie/Abby confrontation at the theater, so I pulled up Google to see how I need to approach this and beat Ellie. When I went on a thread discussing the moment, all I saw was people saying stuff along the lines of: “Just let Ellie kill her and stop there.” It was crazy! Like I was living in a whole other world. But then, despite the fact that most of these people were probably quite toxic and in it for different reasons, the game turned it around on me and made me feel the exact same way. In the final fight where I’m playing Ellie beating up Abby, there was nothing inside of me that wanted to do that. I don’t want to beat up Abby. I want her to leave, find the Fireflies and live happily ever after with Lev in tow. I was so judgy of these other people hating on Abby, but then found myself doing the exact same thing with Ellie only hours later in their end-game confrontation. I guess that’s the beauty and the curse of the game. Whichever way you fall, you’re going to have possibly a horrible time with one half of the game depending on how personal you take its events.

I struggled with Ellie because I didn’t care about her anymore. She wasn’t my protagonist. Other people struggle with Abby because of the exact same reasons. Then there’s the people who manage to end up loving both and can be the Switzerland of the fandom. I wish I could say I fall in that group, but I did end up… and this is a strong word but true, hating Ellie by the end of it. If you were one of my friends who I’ve talked about it while playing through, you’d have heard me moaning and complaining about how much she annoys me and how I hate her. Even worse and possibly slightly sociopathic, I was delighted to see her returning home to an empty farm missing two fingers. The fact that she had a good life with Dina and JJ, that Abby had let her go a second time... and she still had the audacity to seek her out again and try to ruin her life after already killing everyone important to her? A switch just turned. There was no coming back from this anymore between me and Ellie. I spent the whole last few hours begrudgingly playing her, only soothed by the fact that I knew my actions were going to save Abby from a horrible fate. She made her choice and now she has to live with it. Was my delighting in it maybe a bit much? Sure. But after what I felt she put me through the whole game, there was a sense of satisfaction knowing that she did not have the happy ending she hoped for. But you were right, in that the final section Ellie has as the playable character was a lot more interesting and better designed than any of Seattle ever was. I had fun there.

Ultimately, all of this speaks for good writing. I can moan and complain about Ellie all I want, but any piece of media that makes me feel as strongly about it as this did is inherently well-written. Well, unless you’re really just hating on the quality of something. So, props to Naughty Dog for making an emotional rollercoaster of a game where I went completely off-track but somehow landed at the same spot by the end as my fellow riders. Though, myself probably with more happiness of how it all worked out than my polar-opposite fans of Ellie. I do have issues with the game’s design still beyond the writing in terms of that first half. I do think it was incredibly boringly designed beyond my issues with the character. I do think Abby had way better locales and setpieces that Ellie’s section not once came close to. So no, I don’t think it’s a masterpiece. It has too many ruts and badly paced gameplay/writing in that first half for me to sing its praises for anything beyond the efficacy of its writing overall, but that second half did elevate it in my mind a lot more than I was previously scared of it not doing so. I’m happy I played it. I’d never replay it. It’s a game of ups and downs in all of its aspects, but it comes together just in time for it to be a great game in my eyes. I understand the game, and even though it didn’t always seem to understand me, we came to an understanding by the end.

I’ll start with the Joel discussion, and I’ll summarize your first couple paragraphs, if I may, for clarity of my thoughts, that you struggled early on because “the game expects you to be horrified at the death of Joel, after characterizing him as a flawed and deceptive person” —

I completely agree with you about the complexity of Joel. He’s not, as you so well put it, a “squeaky clean” knight in shining armor type of hero. His redemption arc from his dark past is halted by his selfishness and deceit. I think you’re right that a lot of fans didn’t quite see him for what he was, a selfish liar, and chose to rage when he was killed. Honestly, I wasn’t in that camp. I think my emotional attachment wasn’t to Joel, per se, but to the relationship of Joel and Ellie. Their relationship is also complex, for sure, as this messy co-dependence that ended in a lie at the end of Part 1, but could have gone happily-ever-after, if that lie was never revealed. I didn’t feel the gut punch because Joel was killed, rather because Ellie lost her adoptive father, and in a way that left her feeling such guilt due to how poorly their relationship had been going. Survivor guilt is a real thing. I’ve seen it many times in people I’ve known and even in my own family, who lose a loved one that they are mad at and are perhaps estranged from, and the guilt they feel when the person dies while they are on bad terms is a huge burden and carries horrible conflicting emotions.

So, for example, I think the story could have had the same impact (for me at least) if it was the other way around — if Ellie is killed brutally and unexpectedly in front of Joel. His revenge and redemptive arc could have been the same and served as the same narrative device. So for me, it’s not the death of Joel that was disruptive, but the death of the relationship.

Now all that said, I know you felt their relationship was dead already. And perhaps in your experience there was a disconnect with Ellie from the jump and you couldn’t relate and just simply don’t like the character, or at least the character she became she got older in Part 2. And that’s all perfectly acceptable and reasonable. Fortunately, ND gave us another protagonist! 😄

I’m pleased that you related with Abby better. She does have a great character progression and I found it quite fascinating that the player grows to appreciate and care for her, so long as they’re open minded and willing to see things from a different perspective. It’s quite a character whiplash from the ‘golf club wielding’ Abby to the ‘friend to Lev’ Abby and the ‘merciful to Ellie’ Abby. Despite my relating more to Ellie at first, I grew to appreciate something about each of the lead women in the story (yes, I am Switzerland 😂), and that’s a testament to good character development, imho.

But I think many players, even the Ellie apologists, felt similarly as you with the post-farm rage. As you put it — “The fact that she had a good life with Dina and JJ, that Abby had let her go a second time... and she still had the audacity to seek her out again and try to ruin her life after already killing everyone important to her? A switch just turned. There was no coming back from this anymore between me and Ellie…” I think the self destructive revenge of her character drove a lot of us crazy. And you’re correct - she kinda got her just rewards. She flushed her happiness away and lost everything — her family, and even her ability to play guitar, which was a running theme through the games and a symbol of her connection to Joel.

But I am really happy that you related so well to Abby and her crew, especially Lev. But you’re right, that even though so many of the game’s haters were mouth breathing bigots who made their disdain for the game all about politics and close-mindedness, there were still those who liked Ellie for valid reasons, or like you, related to Abby for equally valid reasons. So I think you nailed it when you said, “I guess that’s the beauty and the curse of the game. Whichever way you fall, you’re going to have possibly a horrible time with one half of the game depending on how personal you take its events.” You’re going to feel uncomfortable beating up Ellie, or uncomfortable beating up Abby, depending on your camp. Unless you’re Switzerland and you feel bad trying to kill either one. 😅

As a final note, I do want to highlight something that I became aware of months after I completed the game — Druckmann (born in Tel Aviv) apparently was pretty open about the game being an allegory of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I would suggest it’s applicable as a metaphor for most wars or feuds in general. That is, these conflicts back-and-forth get so out of hand, that after a while you can’t even remember how it all started, and yet each side continues to propagate the conflict. Each side feels like the other started it and each attack on them must be reciprocated to “get even”. Each time Ellie killed one of Abby’s group, they had to kill one of Ellie’s, and so on…. The same illustration is there on the larger scale in the game also between the Scars and the WLF. The two factions continued to fight and didn’t even know what they were fighting for anymore and it is all just such a waste. So much bloodshed and destruction, and for what? Some old vendetta that has spiraled out of control and keeps getting propagated by the cycle of revenge and violence? At some point, someone needs to say enough is enough. Forgive and forget because no one is winning here, and everybody loses.

I also enjoy finding out about the behind the scenes information you mentioned like them removing ''fun'' from their questionnaires to play-testers and such. Very interesting stuff. It just shows how exact they were in approaching this game and how they wanted it to feel, knowing very well the type of reaction it was likely to get from audiences. None of it was by accident. The psychological aspect of ''submission'' you brought up was also a very interesting observation. I think you hit the nail right on the head with that one. The more a player resists, the worse they're going to make the experience for themselves. They need to meet the game where it's at intellectually, and if they refuse to do that, that says more about them than the quality of the writing itself.

I just watched a video essay about the game yesterday, and they read out a petition created at the time of the game's release that was absolutely hilarious to me. How Naughty Dog didn't give the fans what they deserved, how they should redo the game because the narrative was horribly written... it's people who cannot reconcile the difference between what they expected and the game's qualities in isolation. To so factually and pretentiously word a petition about how you were wronged by a game... and then the fact that it received over 18k signatures at the time of the video... it just goes to show how either intellectually immature to honestly engage or media illiterate the general gamer audience can be. I acknowledge it's equally pretentious for me to say that, but I think it's undeniable. It's not about the art for them, it's about validating their already existing feelings. If media consistently gives me exclusively what I expect, I'd have absolutely nothing to talk about ever. Good art generates discussion, and they wildly succeeded at that here. Obviously it's fine not to like something for whatever reason, but you need to be able to present good-faith arguments for why you feel that way at the bare minimum.

I think that illiteracy comes across with the same people who likely didn't see Joel for what he was, as you put it. It's not like that means you're barred from liking Joel as a character. Hell, idolise him all you want if that's your style. But there's a difference between how you view a character and what's on the page. The writing is incredibly clear how Joel's actions were those of a selfish liar. There's no way around that, but it's still up to personal interpretation whether or not that bothers you and how you then see him afterwards. If you can't acknowledge those basic facts, it shows a clear misunderstanding of the material. You can disagree with his fate, sure, but his fate was ultimately a natural progression for the arc he was given. That's not bad writing. That's just writing you might (rightfully or not) not like because of your own personal attachments. I don't like Ellie, but Ellie is not badly written. That distinction seems to get lost for those people who got up in arms regarding Joel.

Anyway, to try and get myself out of this tangent, I totally agree with you in terms of what you said about how the roles of Joel and Ellie could be reversed for the same narrative device. You're right in that the loss of their dynamic is what shaped the story rather than the loss of any singular character. I hadn't viewed it that way yet, so I appreciate reading your thoughts on that! It does make me wonder if the reaction to the game would've been any better had it been switched up. They'd have to come up with another good reason for this revenge arc that didn't involve the doctor first of all of course, but assuming they'd be able to, would the audience have reacted better to the loss of Ellie? To keep the protagonist of the first game the same? I think Joel's death was the right decision for the best story, but I would be interested in this alternate universe version of the game and the reaction to it.

I'm pleased for the confirmation that you are, in fact, Switzerland, haha! I think the cititzens of Switzerland among us probably had the very best possible time with the game, where you could appreciate each and every aspect of it on an equally positive level. No doubt my feelings towards Ellie coloured my enjoyment of playing the game and thus my opinion of it, so to not have any of that negativity throughout is the best possible outcome. I think you all must be a rare breed though, but possibly my fellow Ellie haters are a rarer breed? I'm not sure what the overall consensus is from the non-toxic fans there, but I imagine most probably still prefer Ellie at the end of the day. Which I'd never argue with, as long as it comes from a genuine place.

I didn't know anything about Neil Druckmann's comments regarding the game being an allegory. That's interesting. It makes it all the more timely in the current political climate when you view it from that lens. Like you said, the mouth-breathing bigots who suggested that ''politics'' ruined the game would actually have a (still invalid, but traceable) argument with that one, though obviously none of them actually viewed it in that manner. It works for any big feud or war like you said. I wonder how much of that thought process was intention from the outset vs. what it eventually morphed into and could also represent. I think the allegory is rather disattached from what is presented on a surface-level, so I doubt it was anyone's very first thought.

It makes it even funnier when you see people hating on the game for being ''political'', because after having played it, it seems to me like one of the most apolitically presented games to be accused of overbearing politics or wokeness ruining the experience. It's all incredibly character-driven, and while you can make judgments based on what is presented in regards to the WLF/Scars or the cycle of violence between the leads, all of it is more up to interpretation than anything that is directly laid out for you in way of dialogue and such. The message is there, but it's never evangelising it to you in any overbearing way. It's just showing you the journey of these characters as objectively as possible. It just shines a spotlight on, again, how bad-faith arguments continue to cloud this game. It's the same people who will tear into this game for all of its messages who continue to play other games keeping it entirely surface-level and not engaging with any of their respective messages simply because they like the game.