PS5 Games Won't Support PSVR, Says Sony

A lot of stuff coming out lately throws a bit of doubt over Sony’s attempts at backwards compatibility. In fairness to them it’s their first time doing this other than actually putting the hardware from old consoles in newer ones but they have a long way to go to catch up to Microsoft in this regard.

That’s so weird and casts doubt over their PSVR in general. I would’ve thought this would be clear by now and his comments make it sounds like they aren’t making PSVR2 yet despite being the market leader.....
I don’t like where this going.

They will probably announce a new psvr next year in late q1 or q2.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a new headset release alongside in the inevitable console hardware refresh mid-gen.

@get2sammyb difference is Microsoft was straight up about the whole thing from the beginning.

I’ve never actually used PSVR but its one of the things Sony actually offers over Microsoft and something I want them to actually commit to going forward.

Technology is a heck of a thing, eh?

@get2sammyb it’s hard to guess everything, but my point is at least with Microsoft they said about accessories working going forward and said that Kinect and its games are getting left behind. So you didn’t even have to make an assumption regarding that.

Does the PS5 version automatically includes the PS4 version, or is only the other way around?
The pre-order of the PS4 deluxe edition has a 10% discount for ps+, while the PS5 deluxe edition has 20% off.

The lack of PS4 PSVR love is a bit baffling. It's still getting PS4 support (Iron Man, Vader Immortal, Star Wars Squadrons, Hitman 3)...and it has a decent install base. Why change the input port (it is a standard USB made into a proprietary connector after all)? Why prevent next gen support? Is this Sony walking away from VR?

Gaming is great and all but I really don’t think VR will have it’s true mainstream moment until substantial support of augmented reality and the like are introduced. Just think, vacations all over the world and through history for the elderly, interior design for the budding homebuilder, learning to operate a track hoe or fly a plane from the comfort of your couch, shared space meetings for the COVID age...I love gaming as much as the next guy but VR has so much practical potential I believe it will be a staple in most homes eventually.

Oh no. That’s not good at all. Where does PSVR go from here?

This is ridacalous. So on my PS5 i have to use PS4 version of games that are also availlable on PS5 to be able to enjoy VR? And let's not forget that most of these games still use PS3 move controllers.

And what about save files? Are they separate for PS4 and PS5 version as well?

Next we going to see games structured like PS4 games to take advantage of VR. But only available on the PS5.

@Ortneoc @get2sammyb
That is very strange. Hitman 3: Deluxe Edition is 10% off for the PS4, dropping the price to $71.99, but the PS5 version is 20% off, dropping the price to a mere $4.00 more than the standard editions (PS4/PS5 standard is $59.99...PS5 Deluxe Edition is $63.99 with the 20% discount).

The Hitman 3 landing page says "VR headset enabled", so is that applicable to all versions?

Well, I’m more concerned about existing VR games like Skyrim VR looking better in boost mode. I always guessed PS4 wouldn’t support PSVR given the controller isn’t designed for tracking and the camera needs an adapter. I’m hoping this simply means that PSVR version 2 is expected to be released within the ps5s lifetime and it’ll have inside out tracking as standard.

@get2sammyb When you let a developer say they’re making a game for PS5 on PSVR it’s a problem... unless PSVR2 is coming next year or something, which I doubt.

What, why? People actually use PSVR!.Guys this is stupid. Sony, this is stupid. Just WHY?

This is also confusing because getting Hitman to support just PSVR but not having it work normally on your next-gen console makes no sense. It’s betting great support, but not at the same time?

Glad they are finally dropping this VR nonsense, hopefully it’s gone for good and they focus on more diverse games like RPGs

Sony didn't want psvr 1.5 games, which means the game can only be played on ps5 while still supporting psvr1 headset. I think sony want a clean break between ps4+psvr1 and ps5+psvr2.

@GKO900
You have obviously never played in VR. "Game changer" isn't even sufficient.

@GKO900 1. How dare you. In all seriousness, VR is an amazing technology that you wouldn't get unless you used it.

2. They're not done with VR (I think), they're almost certainly working on a PSVR 2.

I think as good as PSVR has been, it's also been a bloody mess from the beginning, really not well thought out. Using PS3 tech for the move controllers and initially coming out not supporting the Pro's HDR output, I had to constantly switch out HDMI cables depending on what I was playing. Then they had to update that, kinda screwing up first adopters. Then the camera that used a proprietary port, now people have to ask Sony for adapters. And now as the article mentions, you'd need to have two different versions of the game installed to get the best of each. I sold my PSVR eventually and kinda glad I did, really don't feel their commitment on this right now.

So my "game changing" moment occurred during Job Simulator. Cartoonish, not real looking at all, but at one point I tried to lean on the store counter. Yes, the counter that only exists in the game. Now let's couple that with the law of inertia. My outside force was the floor.

Needless to say, I've been a VR fan since...although I do try to be more careful.

Gutted. I was looking forward/hoping for more Gran Turismo VR. Guess that’s out the window now. Missed opportunity. Very bizarre decision.

@lacerz If by a headache and more you mean game changer then you’re right

@AdamNovice You must be working for Sony PlayStation division to know that they are working on

@GKO900
Okay flatty.

Vr is one of the few things they have over Microsoft. Infact was the main reason I got a ps4 over the Xbox one.
For them to pretty much abandon it with the newest iteration. I really see no reason to get a ps5. May as well just get the more stable UI of Xbox.

I hope PSVR doesn't become next Vita

Let's take a little time to reflect on a legend. RIP Sir Thomas Sean Connery.

I suspect this is to save confusion when PSVR 2 comes out. Rather then having ps5 games have two sets of motion controllers. You kinda know what your getting Into from the ps5 logo on the box.

i remembered around the time Tetris effect was announced at E3 , I said in a live stream that the hype for Virtual had died , and Sony has abandoned PSVR faster than the Playstation Vita and the amount of hate I got that day from blind fanboys was madness .

Sony has a track record of abandoning ship if their products dont take off , and while I love my Playstation Vr , alot of a games that were going to sell the headset were tacked on short experiences with VR support . Sony made hardly any psvr games in house and just relied on 3rd party devs to try to push the headset.

Its very hard to market to people to buy a psvr headset for 250-400 euros. you need to experience it to understand it . its unforunate but nor surprising

All I can say is 🤡🤡🤡

@get2sammyb not really the same when Kinect support has long since dropped on even Xbox One. PSVR is an ongoing platform and one many were hoping to see future support but this must surely put that in doubt if its technically not compatible with next gen. Seems a very strange decision along with dualshock 4 support, when they all can connect to PS5 anyway

Honestly this is one of the reasons why I prefer PC VR over the PSVR.
I'm sure Sony will have a potential PSVR2 out by this time next year but it may shut people off before then, especially with the Oculus Quest 2 out.

So you have to buy the digital version to get a free upgrade? So we will have to buy two versions just for next gen and one for vr ridiculous

What i took away from that is that ps5vr is around the corner so, they're locking ps5 games away for now. If they work with existing headsets, what is the point?

Lol, wow Sony, that is incredibly dumb. So glad I didnt buy into PSVR and lock myself into one console. Especially since it cost more then the f-ing console.

Its staggering the amount of idiotic things Sony has done this generation with lack of features and services, and now even with PS5 its showing signs of continuing.

The drop of support for VR on the new camera and this new information suggests that a new PSVR is coming to take full advantage of the system and will have tracking backed in. Sony don't want the developers to be limited by the hardware which they know is heavily constrained by the old tech. It's desepointing but I hope the old games will take advantage of the better hardware of the PS5 for better visuals. Can't wait to get the adaptor and PS5 to try it out. PSVR AIM controller especially is a awesome experience.

@carlos82 Not compatible dont they work or am i missing something? Do you mean not upgraded?

Umm, starting to look like a good opportunity to sell up now. I suppose with no PS5 game support things will start to dwindle down.

This is mind boggling! Sony should officially announce PSVR2 to calm the worries down.

PSVR2 in a few years, I mean the PS4 and VR will still be supported for the next 3-4 years while Sony will want to concentrate on PS5 but are most likely taking their time on a PS5 headset!

Revolution not evolution.

@Flaming_Kaiser Kinect or the Playstation stuff? Kinect was discontinued years ago and even the S and X don't support it.

PS4 controllers and now PSVR work on PS5 but only through backwards compatibility when there seems to be really no reason why PS5 games shouldn't be able to support either. Which for PSVR surely must limit what they are able to do with future games, I mean just imagine the dualsense features combined with the headset, that could be a great experience

I don't have psvr and I haven't tried vr yet in general to be honest, I'm waiting to see what a potential wireless version with less clutter etc would be like on ps5 if they do make one that is. Perhaps this is just because the ps5 is next generation and more powerful, I mean why develop ps5 games that are limited to the ps4 vr technology. Maybe the ps4 vr games will run better by backwards compatible on ps5 anyway.

@GKO900 The PS4 had plenty of RPGs though. It's not like that genre was ever deemphasized on that console in favor of VR. Two of the biggest third party exclusives for PS4 this year were both RPGs even

Hell the PS5's one truly exclusive launch title is an RPG

@lacerz Haha, sounds like my first time on London Heist. I tried leaning in the non existant counter in the bank and flaceplanted on the floor. That's when I fell in love with PSVR.

@TheFrenchiestFry Yeah what I meant to say is from Sony themselves not third party the only seem to focus on adventure open world like games

This is a real kick in the nuts to those of us that love PSVR. The upgrade in visuals was my main reason for getting hyped for PS5. I am not sure what technical hurdle there could be for this. It just really seems douchy more then anything.

As I really enjoy VR, this pisses me off.

I hear people bash by saying they only sold 5 million units........ yeah, BUT, we aren’t talking about 60 dollar games here either.

Well that sucks. I feel like sony were really shady on this. Its all just confusing and with the ps5 2 weeks away we still have mixed messaging. They are basically saying "yeah psvr will have no more games, thanks for the purchase". They just said recently that they are excited about the future of VR and then kill their device in an instant. I rarely get frustrated in gaming news (delays, bad games etc) but this is something I feel like I got scammed a bit on.

@Jeremiah_Thor same here. I was really excited cause I felt like the ps4 pro was just a little too underpowered and I was excited to get some better visuals. Looks like we ain't getting anything. This has to be the shortest a device from Sony has been supported. Worse than the vita even

This is not a Biggie, but it does set a dreary outlook on PSVR, having it tied down to PS4 performance.
I'm sure there's new VR Hardware down the line, but the current headset could still be used until that transition. VR really needs to be as easy as putting on a pair of glasses in order to ever be as mainstream as a TV. It's a major drawback looking like a you just got out of bed, just after a short play session.

This will most likely bum me out about RE Village...

I was really disappointed when I first saw the headline, but clicking through to the original story on UploadVR I think we're getting something of a case of Chinese Whispers here. Nowhere does it say that PS5 doesn't or won't support PSVR, or that there will never be any PSVR games for PS5 (something that @get2sammyb's headline strongly alludes to).

The quote from Sony is in the present-tense: "We have not announced PS5 titles for PS VR."

My guess is that PSVR support isn't in the current version of the PS5 SDK. Whether it'll eventually come or not is another matter, but I'm hopeful, at least...I'm very happy with the hardware as it currently stands, and it would be amazing to see what the new console do driving that display.

BALLS! I sold my PSVR as i thought Sony would release a newer version next year? Oh well, i will have to buy a new headset again

No chance are Sony going to just drop VR, this is no doubt just to prevent issues when they do bring out a new PSVR headset for ps5, going forward we will know all ps5 VR games will be for the new headset, saves confusion in the future. Of course they could have communicated things better to save confusion now too xD

So VR titles will be very rare until a new VR headset is released.

I'm not PSVR owner, but this is a disappointing news. Wouldn't expect it.. :/

Yeeeeahh......psvr2 isn't happening, is it?

If Jimmy is waiting for vr to have a "true mainstream moment", it sounds clear that he doesn't intend for Sony to be the one to create that moment. So... Were waiting for Oculus?

That's disappointing. But it's also bizarre. They spent the entire week before announcing ps5 price and pre-order doing a showcase of psvr....... Before saying they're leaving it in the past and pulling the plug.

Urgh, This is all getting very confusing.

This really sucks if it's true. Was really hoping for a Resi Village VR experience like 7. Waiting for all the devs to confirm this though. No Man's Sky new trailer still mentions PSVR support alongside the free upgrade. Hitman 3 still lists VR enabled for the PS5 version. I'll wait and see what is confirmed.

This is why I don't buy in to these technologies anymore. Motion controls and 3D were meant to be the future, then it was VR.

Yet here we are. Where, aside from some minor implementation of motion controls in the Switch and PS5, none of these technologies are baked in to the systems.

I'm honestly totally okay with this as long as PSVR2 is a major step-up from the first PSVR. Restricting new software to new hardware is hardly a new concept. All this does is set the ball higher for Sony. PSVR2 needs to feel at least as good as the other VR options.

If true they've just killed off sales of PSVR.
I am gutted. I have PSVR and was really looking forward to a huge boost to VR games. I know resolution can't change but the textures, LOD and complexity of the VR world's could be immensely improved with PS5.
This news seriously makes me wonder if I should cancel my pre-order and maybe just pick up a second-hand pro.

I adore my PSVR and hope that Sony announce something on PSVR2 soon. Even if it's a few years away it'd be nice to have some details.

@Jaz007
Agreed. Sounds like no plans at all for PSVR 2. So disappointing.

@AJDarkstar PSVR is the market leader i believe in terms of sales figures 🤷‍♂️

@Sissyrobyn996 really? Resi 7, astrobot, beat saber, superhot, blood and truth, until dawn, headmaster, everybody's golf VR say hi. There are quite a few decent games. Also no mans sky has given more free content than any other game. Yeah it was a little disappointing at launch but they have delivered way past what they original presented.

@Shepherd_Tallon
Yeah Sony will probably want it to be a true next generation vr headset, a bit like with the dualsence controller is a next gen upgrade. Yeah a tidier wireless vr headset would interest me, as someone with ocd I know the current version would drive me a bit mad 😄

It’s about time the motion controllers got a discount because they are overpriced. VR is okay but some great games over this gen never the less.

Either Sony is abandoning the VR space or they're doing something similar to what Microsoft did with Kinect.

For those who want a reminder, back in 2015 when backwards compatibility was announced for XB1 Microsoft revealed that 360 Kinect games would never be part of the program (it's to do with the difference in how XB1 Kinect works in comparison to 360 Kinect).

So if PSVR2 exists, I'd guess it functions very differently from PSVR and as a result VR on PS5 games would only work with PSVR2.

Obviously it just means PSVR 2 is coming, why would they create new PSVR experiences on PS5 when it's outdated and they're probably working on PSVR 2. I won't be surprised if we get a PSVR 2 announcement in 2021 or 2022

I guess this answers the question on whether RE8 will be in VR. Big fat NO! What a disappointment 👎

So basically this either means PSVR2 is definitely on its way or Sony is definitely abandoning VR entirely until the tech matures. Awesome, good to get clarification now so we aren't going into this next gen completely blind about things.

@ThaBEN oh dear. How will life go on? How will anyone be able to deal with this travesty? Surely one of the worst hardships ever inflicted upon humankind. Having to have 2 of the same game installed especially when there's only a handful of them. We might as well all give up now.

@get2sammyb so does this mean there will be no improvements for vr on the ps5 ie better fidelity and are they saying that there will be no new games on ps5 designed specifically for vr and if a dev wants to make a new vr game it will basically be a ps4 game ported to a ps5??????????

@Shepherd_Tallon
I feel your pain mate 😄, but good to know I'm not the only one. I'm planning on getting a new tv for when I get a ps5 (although I didn't manage to pre order one yet) however I'm more concerned about how a new tv and ps5 will look and where the wires will go when setting everything up lol

That's disappointing.
😢😢

@get2sammyb
Push Square kissing Sony bottom again. Not good Sammy.
This is clearly Sony up to their old tricks again, seems Jim Ryan isn't helping either.

I'm seriously getting Vita flashbacks with PSVR now. I assumed psvr2 was coming mid gen. And i thought they were being fair, based on their statements that psvr1 would he a supported ps5 accessory beyond bc. This statement really sounds like they're not interested in vr until someone else makes it big.

@Kefka2589 rofl! I'm laughing...i can't stop. That's so perfectly exactly Jim Ryan!

What I was really getting at is that I disagree with how Sony handles marketing. They did a whole VR week prior to the PS5 pre order and that week only really had two days of news, Minecraft and a sale, they could have said something then. Telling me that the VR is another two years to wait is acceptable, but randomly throwing it out to Washington Post is sloppy.

Wow, Sony is dropping some big shoes at the last minute. PSVR is basically dead and that list of games that don't work correctly on PS5 is pretty big. Not a fan of Jim Ryan, every interview he does is more bad news.

@hi_drnick
Maybe you should consider the fact that Hitman 3 will import all the levels (including DLC) from previous Hitman games if you own them, which I do. Hitman 2 is already over 100Gb on my PS4 because of this. Adding Hitman 3 to that list will probably add another 50Gb (+future DLC). So yes, I do consider having to install over 300Gb and presumably no cross save game option a problem, if this is required to play the PS5 and PSVR version. Especially since there will be less then 700Gb free space available on PS5.

I'm guessing a psvr2 is coming and they want to make sure you get the new tech to use it instead of using old cheaper tech. 2 years we'll see a new one I'd guess.

Time to trade in my PSVR , I might get the PSVR 2 ...

Very disappointed in this as one of main reasons I've preordered a PS5 was to see how improved it would be over my base PS4 with LOD etc etc .
My question, will the boost mode only go up to PS4 Pro level??
Not even further with the PS5's extra power?

Anywho, still looking forward to the 2D games like Miles Morales and Ratchet & Clank.

@SarcasticPeanut
That sounds reasonable. But it still has me worried that this would mean there will be almost no new VR content coming in the immeadiate future. Star Wars: Squadrons is a great example of how PS4 and PSVR games can co-exist. Guess this will no longer happen on PS5.

It's annoying that they seem to be pooh-pooing VR all of a sudden, particularly as we got all those leaks showing some really exciting potential PSVR changes. In fact it was one of my reasons for getting a ps5. I will probably hold off getting a ps5 for now as I am playing my PC (which I am just about to upgrade my GPU) and my Nintendo switch way more anyway.

If they announce PSVR 2 next year then I will probably try and get it with a console in a bundle. Honestly the only exclusives I really wanted are Spider-Man (which I am now buying on PS4) ratchet and clank and horizon. There were other games I liked but I'll just pick them up when I finally buy a ps5.

The other thing is if they are planning to release a pro version with closer specs to or better than the xbsx at some point I would rather bite at that. I want to see some really impressive changes to VR when they finally launch it on ps5. I mean it was pretty impressive what they did with the PS4s hardware for the PSVR. So I think VR on the ps5 could be really good. That is of course assuming they make sure good VR controllers and bury the move controllers for all time lol.

I hope that Sony scrapped PSVR. This alpha-version technology must die the same as 3D movies died.
True VR tech will not be ready for at least another 10 years.

A lot of people are taking this to mean psvr2 is coming, but to me the quote above is very the opposite and it's killing hope of psvr2. That statement is very much " this isn't mass market, were all about mass market, and we know someday this will be made mass market by somebody else, and when it does we will be there to copy them.". It sounds very much like they're bowing out of pushing vr until it's made mature by somebody else's r&d money.

@Shepherd_Tallon
That's cool, my current set up is a 42 inch 1080p screen and I just use cable ties to keep the wires tidy. I'm not sure what tv to get yet when I upgrade to ps5, I was thinking about the LG nano led as it seems a upgrade from standard led screen i currently have. If i go much larger then I will probably need a bigger stand or wall mount, but I'm not keen on wall mounting idea. Would you have any advice what tv to get? I was thinking oled too but I heard they aren't great for screen burn or whatever its called.

@JoshuaTChandler Why? That's good business. Get those last minute sales from the hyped up marketing, and then can the next project that would cost money in R&D and probably won't make a decent return.

For me it's just another thing to add to the "I can not see anything positive about these console releases" pile I have going on.

A lot of people are complaining about this scenario, but it's no different to the news Sony announced a few weeks ago with dualshock only working on PS4 games and not of ps5 games.

No one kicked off about having to go out and buy an extra few dualsense controller's even though they already have dualshocks at home.

@PixelRunner you didn't read those comment sections, did you? Because a lot of people did complain about not being able to use their dualshocks.

I honestly find it baffling that Sony is blocking devs from using PS4 accessories like controllers and VR in their PS5 games. The hardware is there and usable by BC games, what is the harm in allowing a dev to support basic DualShock 4 or VR???

@PixelRunner I think the difference here is that they're trying to get devs to use the features of the new controller that simply don't exist on dualshock.
There is no VR2 but the existing VR experience could be massively enhanced with the extra muscle in the PS5 and features of the new controller.
We were told some time ago the Dualshock would only work in BC mode on the PS5. We were not told there'd be no new PS5 VR games.

@Tharsman @SJBUK

Yeah, I'm relatively new to Push Square - so probably missed the peeps moaning about dualshock/dualsense. Actually didn't follow many games forums until I got my PS5 preorder! lol

I work in a similar tech company (but not gaming related), so I can see both sides of the story.

As a gamer, it would be great to use my Dualshock as I have 3 of them, and not have to buy more.

As a tech employee, I can see what @SJBUK is saying where they want the devs to use the latest features to create the appeal to purchase the PS5 instead of hold on to the PS4's for longer.

Sony are in the game to make money, and if they didn't then we wouldn't have the new consoles. To make money, they have to do things like this which means we (as gamers) have to buy more controllers. But it means that we have future console generations because they made money from this generation.

The other option is to build in all these features that people want, but then charge more to start with, which is also not a popular move.

So it's really hard for Sony to strike the right balance, and ensure that they make money, so that it can be a going concern to build more in the future. Then at the same time it's 60 quid a pop for new controllers for us! Grrrr

@PixelRunner "The other option is to build in all these features that people want, but then charge more to start with, which is also not a popular move."

But they are already charging more on every front. Controllers are more expensive, console is more expensive than the ones before, games are all more expensive... everything is more expensive.

Sony could have always simply demanded devs add some support of PS5 controllers on their games, even if they became optional to DualShock users. Plus a lot of the newer games will have cross-gen version upgrades that will require the user to do some convoluted things. Got Dirt 5 and want to play split screen? Buy extra expensive controllers or install the PS4 version so you can have a house guest play with you. For me, it screams greed.

The VR thing, that is simply baffling, there is no reason to not allow devs support it on native games.

@SJBUK My brother just bought a PSVR. I think he wont be happy.

@Shepherd_Tallon
That's cool, thanks for the reply. My current tv is LG so I think I will stay with LG again or I might consider a Sony or Samsung but I haven't decided yet.

@TurboTom If you can stretch to it an LG OLED is beautiful thing to behold. The 65 inch dropped £300 in the last week, I think the smaller ones have as well. After having a 1080 SDR Samsung the PQ is an absolute revelation.
As an aside, I bought mine two weeks ago and kicked myself for not waiting when I saw the drop in price. Fortunately I bought it from Costco and found out you can apply for a refund of the difference between purchase price and a new price if it drops within 30 days. Got a call tonight to say I was going to get £300 back

@Tharsman To be fair, after seeing the controller tear-downs, it looks like there's a lot more to the new controllers than the old Dualshock. I understand the frustration, though I'm OK with replacing my PS4 controllers (as long a I can play PS4 games with the Dualsense) I am frustrated with the VR situation.

@SJBUK
Cheers that's good to know, i will check richer sounds to see if they have any offers on too, they normally give 5 or 6 years guarantee. I have been considering a oled tv as my Samsung phone is oled and I love how vivid and colourful it looks. However I do feel concerned about screen burn and if the oled screens are bright enough during the day when there is lots of natural light coming through.

When I saw the inputs at the back of the Ps5, I knew they would abandon it.

If they were comited, they would integrate the hdmi box of the actual vr in the inputs/outputs of the console to avoid hdr/hdmi 2.1 problems.

@TurboTom There's a lot of talk about screen burn and that nearly put me off. I had a Panasonic plasma for about 6 years, though, and never had a problem with that. Replaced it with a Samsung LED when it broke. My usage pattern is much the same, although now have kids who watch youtube, so I don't think there'll be a problem. I'll just be a bit careful. For me the PQ outweighs having to be a bit cautious but each to their own.

The CX is bright enough for me in a room with French doors one end and skylights in the ceiling. I've not noticed any real difference in 'watchability' vs the Samsung LED it's replaced.

Saying all that, If you can see one in the flesh, do so.

PS4 looks fantastic on it, PS5 should rock with 4K and HDR support

@Freakdahouse Not necessarily, if they were planning on VR2 in the near future it wouldn't have made sense to add any extra for VR1. I don't mind having to use an adaptor and certainly not against a new VR2 setup but IF a decision was made not to support VR natively on PS5, I'd have liked them to have communicated it properly. I hate it when people drop hints about (what is to me) bad news, just out with it!

@SJBUK
Thanks for the info mate, much appreciated. Yeah I will see if I can get a viewing of one before I buy, but with the UK going in lockdown again that could be a problem.