It’s looking increasingly likely that Microsoft will scrap its Xbox Live multiplayer fee next generation, putting PlayStation in a somewhat precarious position. Sony, though, will mostly be thinking about its bottom line, and with an outrageous 44.9 million active subscribers, it’s unlikely to shed its supremely successful subscription.
That latest figure comes courtesy of a record-breaking financial report, in which the Japanese giant pulled in an eye-watering $5.63 billion in revenue. Sales were boosted by the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, with many flocking to the PlayStation Store to pick up new games. In total, the manufacturer flogged 91 million titles in the period spanning April through June.
Frankly, the financial report makes for mind-blowing reading, and while it’s definitely been accelerated by unprecedented global circumstances, Sony’s biggest challenge now is keeping this streak flowing as it enters a new generation. Transitioning its customer base to the PS5 will be challenging, but so far it seems confident of pulling it off.
[source sony.net]
Comments 94
That's bonkers numbers.
Let’s be honest the only reason Microsoft are being nice is because they can’t beat Sony or Nintendo any other way and they still won’t on consoles and games sold.
So it’s be nice and change what we measure our performance against.
@Dezzy70 Well if being nice, benefits the customers than👐🏾...
I hope sony raise the value of psplus with new indie games on launch and good AAA games, 2 ps4 games and 2 ps5 games seems right considering we get 2 ps3, 2 ps4, and 2 vita games back then.
Also keep the discount, I bought 1 year psplus for about $31 on cdkeys in the last 2 years 😃
@wiiware I'm only expecting one PS5 game on PS Plus per month, at least for the first year.
@LiamCroft As long as the ps5 games is good I'm okay with that, nearly all the indie titles on ps5 event is interesting, I don't want any random games though.
@LiamCroft I would be made up with that, I don't expect any PS5 games given how limited the numbers will be initially but I suppose that depends on if it is a real PS5 game or a PS5 game that is really a PS4 game plus a boost patch, I thought maybe add a VR game each month!
I guess it's not going anywhere if people keep championing charging for what should be free. What a weird thing to celebrate.
I’m not convinced personally that Microsoft will just all of a sudden remove all the revenue they make from Xbox Live and go free online multiplayer. I feel like people are setting themselves up for disappointment if that’s what they are expecting to happen.
If anything, I can see Free-to-play games no longer requiring Xbox Live Gold to play online, which would mean Microsoft finally catches up to Sony in that regard. Currently you are required to have Xbox Live Gold even for free-to-play games online. This change would make Halo multiplayer free for all.
But I remain skeptical of Xbox Live going totally free. That is way too much of a revenue loss instantly to be believable. Is there any solid evidence of this happening other than rumor?
@DeepSpace5D
If they did it will Sony counter it? Or just not care at all?
If this how it's going to be. Then I will definitely play my third party games in xbox and only ps5 exclusive
@rachetmarvel
That’s true, but there is always an under lying reason 🤣
@Ridwaano Let’s see if Microsoft remove the free-to-play Xbox Live requirement first, they are still behind Sony in that particular area.
But no, I don’t see Sony responding by copying that move. They have never been so reactionary when it comes to what Microsoft does, and I don’t see that starting now. Removing all the revenue that Xbox Live subscriptions generate sounds suicidal in all honesty, or perhaps a last-ditch desperation tactic if true. I just don’t see it happening but we’ll see.
It would be a big deal if true, but worth mentioning that most third-party games still don’t have online multiplayer. The Farcry’s and Assassin’s Creeds of the world would not be affected by this. But some titles would.
They really should now think about bundling ps plus and ps now together.
Ps plus games for a while have been very much hit and miss.. Just go full in with ps now and be done with it.
Its a bit of a stretch to say Ms are getting rid of gold. They're merely repackaging it to get more people on Xcloud.
@DeepSpace5D I don't think it would be a "last-ditch" tactic at all. Microsoft isn't pulling anywhere near the revenue from Live as Sony is from Plus. It's easy for them to kill that service to try to entice multiplayer gamers to join their ecosystem. If you had the option to get multiplayer for free and to spend the same amount of money for Gamepass rather than two free games a month, don't you think that would sound better to a good amount of people?
The idea that Sony is doing well in this area so change won't happen has been proven wrong in almost every historical event in a free market society. competition tends to focus on how to improve the system to draw consumers to them. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony messed with the formula first to keep their competitive advantage.
@PcTV some people like being dominated...
@LiamCroft I hope that Sony will be wise and come up with clear policy that will promote PS5 selling while maintaining the huge player base that currently using the PS4.
Maybe one PS5 game given, in addition to the 2 PS4 games, while at least one of them can be also played via enhanced PS5 version.
And maybe they can throw some extra content once in while, such as PSVR title for example...
@RedShirtRod
“It's easy for them to kill that service to try to entice multiplayer gamers to join their ecosystem”
I just don’t agree with this myself. Sure Xbox Live numbers are not as high as PSN, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t significant. Microsoft makes a ton of money from Xbox Live subscriptions, I don’t agree that it’s just so easy to kill that service for them and lose out on all that generated money.
@RedShirtRod Xbox live has nearly double the amount of subscribers than ps plus.
Unless I'm misreading your statement they absolutely beat Sony on revenue for subs.
I am just about to let my subscription lapse actually. I don't really play multiplayer games, and I've either played the Plus games or am not interested in them. PS Now is much better value to me.
@Mostik Last time we got games like Contrast and Fez. Which were also on PS3. But the PlayStation plus version was the PS4 version. I would expect a similar situation for the first PlayStation five games on plus.
Nothing quite like having people start to build a library of PlayStation five games that they claimed on their PlayStation 4 to incentivise them to upgrade.
@solocapers that’s not true
I'll have both new consoles, but only single player (ratchet, tlou3, uncharted) on PS5. XsX will have everything else, including gamepass , cloud streaming, and 98% of my money.
it's worth noting that PlayStation have a habit of closing down servers of games that aren't very popular. MS keep everything. For this fact alone I do not give money to PSN, ever
Fans: "We've been paying for this crap for years, we have the right to complain!"
Investors: "Guys, we need to buy more Sony stock - these geniuses print money by selling people the mere right to complain!"
@SincereMan I've been saying this for years. Microsoft has destroyed Sony when it comes to online services, especially game pass. Wipe out the paywall and make online gaming free again!
@PcTV Yeah, pay-walling online play isn't something that should be celebrated. The fact that people accept that is bonkers.
@dark_knightmare2 @solocapers @RedShirtRod
Most recent numbers I can find suggest that Microsoft had 65 million subscribers at the end of the fourth quarter of 2019. Remember this is both across Xbox 360 and Xbox One.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/531063/xbox-live-mau-number/
I am curious what Sony would do once Microsoft drop their online paywall. With the 45 million PS Plus subscribers who may eventually migrate to a proper game subscription service, i think it is a good time for Sony to consider their own version of Game Pass.
Soooooo Playstation fans are happy that they've taken this much of our money? And yet the competition who may well offer this service for free is evil??🤔 @PcTV is right, what a bizzare thing to celebrate.
I can see Microsoft dumping live. Remember Xbox is now more a service that covers both Xbox and PC, so charging one customer and not the other isn’t going to look good. Also live and plus were meant to be products to cover the server costs and not a profit making machines (which Sony is treating it like now). And with most publishers using their own servers these days and with crossplay being a thing (playing with pc players who pay nothing) the costs just aren’t there for platform holders to justify live and plus. They also make a ton of money through their stores on their closed platform to cover game download server costs. It’s no different to Apple really.
My personal satisfaction with plus has dropped dramatically. I originally subscribed to these services so I could play games I own online without the worry of servers shutting down (like on the pc, although you can create your own there). But the likes of drive club has shown otherwise. Not many people played it so I can understand it being shut if it wasn’t for the fact I am paying Sony to run the online servers and not to feed their shareholders. And the quality and quantity of plus games have dropped far below what I signed up for. Being a Now customer it’s the same games over and over again. To make matters worse if I have downloaded a game on Now and it appears on Plus I cannot add the Plus version to my library. This means if I stop Now but still have Plus I can’t access that game. (Same with you can’t buy games in a sale if I have downloaded in Now, so stupid). I think next gen I may just go PC and buy a ps5 later in the gen for exclusives when prices have dropped. I think it will be the first time in a long time I have not got a generation console at launch. I have a XOX and gamepass ultimate (so includes pc).
@Ridwaano Looking at these numbers Sony will not do anything. They may have to increase the "value" of PS Plus, but 50 million subscribers is far too many to just throw away.
@Ryall This data doesn't include paying subscribers.
@get2sammyb They need to make PS Plus a better value other than games like the cloud storage being increased to 200GB.
@DeepSpace5D @Ryall @solocapers Xbox Live is hard to track as Microsoft includes the free tier into their total numbers. When you read the 65 million active users it's very different than paid subscribers (Sony uses PSN as their active user amount).
Edit: I think a good historical marker to look at is Internet Explorer. The web browser could have been a cash cow for Microsoft back in the early 2000's but they made it free to torpedo the competition like Netscape. Highly diversified companies can easily manipulate their revenue for overall gains.
@shuvamg009 Thank you for a good laugh...
@solocapers That's not accurate at all.
Life is an Excel spreadsheet and I'm pretty sure Sony has this figured out. They've done a pretty good job so far.
@Medic_Alert Ya...I’d be willing to bet this doesn’t happen. Still way too much of an income loss, I don’t think enough players have switched to Gamepass from Gold to make that a strategy that makes sense.
Here’s what I bet is going to happen: Xbox Live Gold and Gamepass are going to merge, requiring Gamepass to play online in non free-to-play Games. Microsoft will market this as “incredible value” but in reality it’s going to cost a little more than Gold was on its own.
Then, they will announce that free-to-play games no longer require Xbox Live Gold, which will bring parity to Sony in that regard.
Again, anyone expecting all online multiplayer to go free for Xbox is setting themselves up for disappointment. Microsoft’s idea here is to make Halo: Infinite multiplayer free-to-play, and then anounce Gold is no longer required for free-to-play, effectively making Halo: Infinite multiplayer free for everyone.
@Medic_Alert But I do think @DeepSpace5D has a point in that you're talking about a lot of ifs and maybes here.
For a company that's doubling down on subscriptions, it seems crazy to think they may remove their most popular subscription.
I do think it's probably going to happen, but outside of hardcore circles like this site I wonder how much it'll actually move the needle for people.
@get2sammyb 'but outside of hardcore circles like this site I wonder how much it'll actually move the needle for people.'
I've never considered myself as part of a hardcore circle (nor would I ever want to be labelled with such a tag), but if MS are going to start offering online for free, then I know which way my needle will move. The ONLY reason I have ever subscribed to PS+, is for the ability to play online. For me, the service offers nothing else that I want.
The people acting like this would be this huge win for Microsoft should remember that there was already a generation of free online versus paid online. It wasn’t a big deciding factor if you ask me, yes ps3 won out but it had the free online AND Sony’s exclusives. If true Microsoft may well have the free online but most certainly not the exclusives.
@solocapers
The playstation plus numbers are paid subscribers. Xbox live paid subscribers will be much lower than playstation plus. The number Microsoft share are people just connected to the service including free users and mobiles etc.
As of March this year there are 90 million active xbox live users and 10 million game pass subscribers that's double of ps+
To me, it just becomes clearer that it's affordable for Sony to remodel PS + and make it feel like you're getting more in return. Not only is Sony making heavy money, but also the competition is heading towards a "no fee for online". It not time to be greedy.
@Medic_Alert
“It's not a loss in money if more people are playing third party games on your platform though. They just have to convince that casual user base to switch and I think free MP does that for a lot of people.“
I would be really impressed if MS truly dropped all fees for online play, and it would be a major play that can only be seen as a win for the consumer. But it seems like a massive gamble, and one that I believe is likely to fail.
Sony still has marketing rights and exclusive content deals for many major third party titles like Call of Duty. Reports are coming out that Sony has more third-party deals than ever for this upcoming gen. Look at Spiderman being an exclusive character in Avengers only on Sony consoles. This is another way of incentivizing platform choice, and is a competitive counter to free online if it were to happen.
These types of deals are only going to increase for Sony, because the reality is most third-party developers want to sell many copies of their game, not give it away on Gamepass to subscribers who are on a $1 trial. So I expect to see more and more third parties partnering with Sony for exclusive content and timed release.
@MarcG420 ''If true Microsoft may well have the free online but most certainly not the exclusives.'
Believe it or not, but some people don't buy a console for exclusives. If SONY exclusives were a determining factor for me, then I would have never have bought a Playstation.
@Masterrugg 90 million active live users is NOT giving the paid subscriber numbers. They just want you to think it is. The paid numbers are much lower I’m sure. Psn active users is stated at over 110 million. You were saying?
@Hengist completely avoiding the main point. 🤦♂️
@MarcG420 Active Live User is so vague anyway. If you are playing Minecraft on Nintendo Switch, you are an Active Live User.
@DeepSpace5D exactly.
@Hengist $5 per month for cloud save, free games and bigger discounts on PSN sales are more than worth it for me. I feel like I get much more value from ps+ than I do Netflix. And I bet I'm not the only one.
@Dezzy70 There's actually a smarter business reason that could be behind this.
Game Pass is a more future proof service. The future is moving towards online streaming services and "player engagement" (or in game spending). Xbox has around 90 million active xbox live users. Far more than the 40 odd million xbones out there. Some of these will be on PC and PC users won't pay to access online features, they will however, pay for a game streaming service.
MS is look at the two services, and is probably looking at dropping Gold in order to focus on Game Pass and get the users who aren't paying for Gold, to pay in to game pass or in game purchases.
And quite frankly, it would be a win/win. Like their BC programme. Gamers get access to all their games and devices, and MS gets to keep selling those products and making money from them.
@MarcG420 Apologies Marc, if I've misunderstood. I thought that your point was regarding free versus paid online, and that it didn't really matter as SONY had exclusives. Please correct me if I'm still wrong.
@Kristos ' $5 per month for cloud save, free games and bigger discounts on PSN sales are more than worth it for me'.
That's great that you think that it's value for you. I respect your view.
For me, I'm quite capable of making my own back-up saves. The 'free' monthly games, I already own or don't want. As for PSN sales, I think that they're a joke, as you can usually just go on Amazon and find the game there for cheaper than the Sony sale price.
@Hengist no, my point was that free online versus paid online did not make Sony win the generation, plus Sony had much better exclusives and many people bought a ps3 because it was cheaper than all the standalone blu-ray players as well.
Yes Sony ended up winning the generation over all, but the free online if it was a big deal would’ve surely meant a landslide victory. 🙄
@Hengist the last point about amazon is just plain false in my experience. The deals with ps+ are quite commonly crazy good deals below anywhere else.
@MarcG420 Thanks for the reply. I have no idea about who won the last gen race, but I can remember people jumping ship from the X360 to the PS3 because of the free online play. Even today, I prefer to do my online gaming on PC, rather than pay/subscribe to PS+ for the ability.
@MarcG420 'the last point about amazon is just plain false in my experience.'
That's fine. My experience dictates otherwise.
@Hengist you’re failing to account for the many millions of ps+ subscribers who now have 200ish games in their libraries of games they keep access to staying with PlayStation 5 and PS+. This is going to be a big sway towards ps5.
Psn and ps+ generated 3.20 billion in subscriptions , in the same time Microsoft generated 11.40 billion in subscriptions for the fiscal year gamepass doing 5 times the number of ps+ and xbox live doing double of psn
@MarcG420 These are different times to when the PS3 was around. Console MP gaming was very much an xbox thing. The quality of the PS3 PSN didn't help that. PS3 treated online as an afterthought, and so did its gamers. And we can't ignore how well xbox did that gen because it was the go to console for online gaming. You only need to look at Sony's single player exclusive games, and MS' MP focused exclusives to see how that gen has informed both company's game development.
Today we have "live service" games, with games like Fortnite, Destiny, and GTA Online being major features. Even traditional sports games have major online components.
Free online on xbox would be a huge talking point for many.
"you’re failing to account for the many millions of ps+ subscribers who now have 200ish games in their libraries of games they keep access to staying with PlayStation 5 and PS+. This is going to be a big sway towards ps5."
I thought next gen was for next gen experiences?. It's funny how this forum flip flops on the BC discussion depending on which company they are talking about.
@MarcG420 I can appreciate that. I'm tempted to get a PS5 solely for PSVR and the promise of better games. However, based on the available games so far, it isn't high up on my priority list.
@Richnj I firmly believe most people don’t use BC often if at all. Can still be a big sway for your library to carry over though.
You can try to talk yourself into believing MS will actually “win” a generation if you like, but the status quo isn’t changing anytime soon. Wait and see.
@Masterrugg respectfully, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Psn and services makes more money for Sony than ALL of XBOX DOES FOR MICROSOFT. Without even counting Sony’s hardware sales. 🤣🤣
@Masterrugg https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/02/01/playstation-network-revenue-hit-record-high-in-2018-topped-nintendo-and-xbox-totals
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/02/psn_earned_usd12_48_billion_for_sony_in_2019
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2019/02/psn_alone_generated_more_revenue_than_the_entirety_of_nintendo_in_2018
@MarcG420 Yeah, I bought and very much enjoyed a Wii U (and it still has a place connected to my TV) so "winning" isn't a concern of mine. I'm more interested in discussing individual features of consoles and the merits of those features.
Hell, it doesn't even seem like MS care about "winning" a console race either. They are building a high revenue multiplatform service, rather than checking off the "we sold most consoles" talking point.
@Richnj so “high revenue” that it’s not making them money. They want you to think it’s high revenue so you don’t see that it sits on the edge, not enough increase in subscribers and it goes the way of Mixer.
@Medic_Alert I’m not so sure Gamepass has increased sales across the board. It’s so murky now because MS doesn’t release concrete numbers for sales anymore, instead choosing to measure in different metrics.
I remember Gears 5 was heralded as the most successful launch of the series by Microsoft, and they touted a figure like 3 million active players at launch, many of which were through Gamepass. But when sales came out in the UK, it’s launch had sold 4.5x less than Gears 4, and 20x less than Gears 3. Microsoft claim that Gears 5 is their best selling title, but won’t release exact figures. They seem to interpret data in whatever way makes them look more favorable.
@Medic_Alert not buying it at all. Easy to give numbers without any proof at all.
@Medic_Alert the thing is though they said this once. Could’ve been for a certain time and not apply to the greater outlook at all. Cherry picking stats without giving all the information is what Microsoft does.
@Medic_Alert looking at that number puts things into perspective though, PlayStation just announced like 5.3 Billion in the same quarter didn’t they?
Edit: yeah, 5.63 billion. That’s a huge difference.
TLDR; PlayStation made 4.33 times as much as Xbox last quarter.
Edit: on further review I think 1.3bn was the increase not their full earnings.
@PcTV no one is celebrating anything here, the post is simply stating numbers and facts, and shows how desperate MS is (according to the rumors)
@MarcG420 Yeah, you seem to misunderstand. They are investing in Game Pass. Like I said, future proof. They are trying to corner the game streaming service market. And unlike Mixer which was already losing to things like Twitch and would easily lose to YouTube, Game Pass already has a large customer base. The largest and most active one as far as I'm aware of. It's around 5 times larger than PS Now at least. And they will want to maintain that lead until the market turns towards streaming the way it did towards digital.
I got the impression Xbox Live was merging into Gamepass so your still paying for it indirectly 😬
@Richnj I’m not misunderstanding at all. In business if you don’t see good growth on a money losing venture it doesn’t take long before it gets cut. Time will tell, and MS has its work cut out for them to turn it profitable.
They’ve got to exponentially grow their user base while adding new games to the service to keep their existing subscribers. All of which is very expensive.
I wouldn’t bet on it.
@PcTV
Well, PS3 had a free online service whilst 360 owners had to pay (also you could buy one copy of a game and use it to play on several machines at once).
All the Xbox fans said that it was worth paying because the service was so good. Things have come full circle now.
@Medic_Alert Time will tell. I want there to be competition as it pushes innovation. I just don’t think MS understands gamers. They never have.
@Medic_Alert what’s he done? All he did was pivot from one form of DRM and people not owning their games model to a model where people pay you monthly for that model and call you consumer friendly for it. Open your eyes people!
@get2sammyb I don't think they'd be throwing it all away if they made online free. You still get the monthly games and discounts. And that's all that everyone talks about, so that certainly counts right?
@Medic_Alert
Digital refunds - copied from steam
Championed cross play- you have them confused with SONY here who was trying to make cross play a thing as far back as PS2 days
Adaptive controller- you mean like pc has had options for for a very long time?
Free backwards compatible games - you mean like Sony had on ps2 and early models of PS3?
Gamepass on both Xbox and PC- you mean like SONY has had with PSNOW much longer than gamepass was even a thing?
Day and date exclusives with gamepass- I’ll give you this one; only MS is foolish enough to devalue their major exclusives.
Notice a trend?
@Pain-Nagato-Sama You do see that image of the dude with the belt, right? It's allusive to victory.
@Angeljuice It wasn't very straightforward, I'd say Xbox did have a better online. But I still felt that PS3 was the better approach since it was still very good and free.
@Medic_Alert you’re the one trying to spin the facts.
Play anywhere- you mean like cross buy between PS4 and vita games while the vita was supported?
Sony may not be the most generous of companies with their return policies, that’s true. You can however get refunds on games you’ve not played or were delayed etc.
Sony wasn’t the last one with cross play- opposite in fact. Final fantasy XI on PS2, Final fantasy XIV on PS4. The Xbox fans have a short memory to not remember MS blocking cross play while Sony allowed it.
As far as psnow you may think they treated it as an afterthought, and that’s a perfectly fine opinion to have. Don’t try to act like your opinion is fact though. Truth is they have 800+ titles on the service and have millions of subscribers. I’d suggest waiting to see if there is anything new announced with regards to psnow. You may be surprised.
Edit: also already covered backwards compatibility. Refer to my previous reply.
if MS drop the multiplayer pay wall and Sony keep theirs I will just move to xbox/PC for multiplayer and multiplatform games and use ps5 for exclusives, so will everybody else! It's unthinkable Sony will allow MS to have such a huge advantage for long, I predict MS will make online free and sony will try to keep the plus paywall for a year or so before they realise they are losing millions of players to PC / xbox and the resentment, complaints and bad PR grows so loud they finally cave just like the cross play debacle
@Grimwood
I’m concerned that in the future we could lose the big AAA type Sony games and third party open world action adventure games and Nintendo’s. As I can see going forward the game pass model seems to represent lots of quantity but not quality. I definitely not a fan of generations like Xbox is doing. I don’t fancy 2 years of tarted up Xbox one game’s on a new generation 12tflop console with a slight scaling upgrade. And I’m not a massive fan of backwards compatibility, but it’s ok.
Microsoft may end live gold to bundle live gold into Game Pass Ultimate for $180 a year. A forced increase in yearly cost to play online.
Well, you're attempting to stoke the fire by constantly running with speculation. I'm not sure that counts as a "debate raging over PS Plus" 🤷🏻♂️
Does anyone really care about Xbox ?
@PcTV This article from 2013 might answer your question on why we need to pay for multiplayer access.
https://www.destructoid.com/sony-explains-why-you-ll-have-to-pay-for-online-with-ps4-256158.phtml
@DeepSpace5D @get2sammyb
You are right in that area. Hopefully they increase the value in ps➕ when the Ps5 arrive!
Or I will jump off the subscription! That 1 less. A 💧 of a ocean.
@Vorlon
Well I do! After they required outerworld developers!
@Netbean
I am with you on that idea 💡!
@BrainHacker I had no such question. The reason given by the article is also quite corporate and doesn't make sense if third parties have their own servers, or you're playing PvP. And even then, Sony has been shown to still retire the online component of a game if it's not profitable by itself, like it happened to DriveClub. It didn't even outlive some PS3 games' online.
What is the debate about? Haha
@shuvamg009 Not really i like my firstparty titles complete and 99% MT free. So massive firstparty titles complete or free online its a easy choice for me.
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