@RogerRoger, I remembered reading about that game in Nintendo Power back in the day, but hadn't heard anything about it since. Interesting write up, I'd always wondered what Sonic would be like as an RPG (really weird that SEGA would choose to partner with a western developer for it though, rather than a fellow Japanese developer. I wonder what the thought process was for that).
Currently Playing:
Switch - Blade Strangers
PS4 - Kingdom Hearts III, Tetris Effect (VR)
@RR529 Thanks for reading! As I say, worth checking out if you're curious, but not if you're a die-hard RPG enthusiast looking for anything surprising or meaty.
Sonic has always been engineered primarily for the western market. BioWare were one of the hottest names in RPGs back in 2007 and 2008, having just launched Mass Effect off the back of the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games, and they were working on Dragon Age: Origins (Tails mentions this during the credits of Chronicles, which made me smile). Whilst you're right, there were plenty of well-respected JRPG experts to choose from, I think it made more brand / marketing sense to ask BioWare.
Of course, that's just me speculating. I wasn't in the room!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
I've thought about picking this up over the years, but I kept getting scared off by the almost universally negative reception from RPG AND Sega fans I talked to. Maybe it's because, as you point out, the game is sort of basic and casual, but I don't see how that should be a problem: virtually every Mario RPG I've played to date has been very mechanically basic, but the combination of Nintendo charm and rudimentary RPG game design makes them work well and possess a sort of unique identity. In a better world, this could have been Sonic's Super Mario RPG moment, opening the floodgates to a miniature industry of casual hedgehog-themed RPGs.
What elements were taken from the Archie Comics line, by the way?
@RogerRoger I liked the review - especially the behind the scenes shenanigans regarding EA. At first I thought, what there was a Sonic RPG but on reflection... of course Sega tried a Sonic RPG! I don't think simplicity is a downside to a game as long as it is engaging and knows how to make it work which it sounds like this does.
Now I may be an idiot, but there's one thing I am not sir, and that sir, is an idiot
@Ralizah Thank you! Well, when you couple its simplicity with the offensive sound design, I can understand it turning a few genre fans away at the door.
Seriously, if you ever do play it, play it on mute. You've also got the fact that Sonic fans can get very specific about things they like and dislike, and the odd blending of the game's continuity with the Archie universe has apparently been a bone of contention for many.
It's the stuff relating to Knuckles and the history of the Echidna. The comics (reportedly; I've never read the American stuff, beyond occasionally falling down a Sonic wiki rabbit-hole) expanded the concept of an ancient Echidna civilisation shown in Sonic Adventure, creating lore and characters that became quite popular. I think some of them even came from an alternate dimension, which is where Chronicles might've stepped over the line; I can't directly speak to how derivative the game's original Echidna characters are, beyond surface-level design choices.
I just looked up the critical reception (because I usually ignore it) and it received sevens, eights and a couple of nines at launch. Given that you've only heard negative things from actual gamers, it does make me wonder just how untouchable BioWare were supposed to be.
I'm glad you're (kinda?) enjoying Digital Devil Saga 2, by the way. It's a shame that it sounds like a "one hand giveth, the other taketh away" experience, but at least you're finding some positives!
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@Rudy_Manchego Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for reading! It's true, SEGA have thrown Sonic at pretty much everything over the years. There was even a Sonic FPS in development once, I think. Whatever silly gimmicks we frequently get stuck with, it could always be far, far worse!
And yeah, Chronicles kinda reminds me of a LEGO game, in that you've gotta love the source material it's adapting in order to see the basic gameplay and execution through 'til the end. It may be a bang-average RPG when measured against all other RPGs, but it's the only one which stars Sonic, and makes a decent attempt to expand his universe. Until that slightly drawn-out final chapter, it held my attention by that virtue alone, which is why I gave it a higher score than others probably would.
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger really nice review of sonic chronicles. It's a game I've always wanted to try out but just never got round to! I think I had it in my eBay watch list earlier this year but couldn't get it for cheap enough. Are the touch controls compulsory out of interest? Or can everything be done by buttons too? I just wonder if it is a game better played via emulation on a TV. Somehow I doubt it would be on the Wii U VC, at least you can set the monitor portrait on those releases and use the touchscreen on the game pad...
I really like the sonic supporting cast, especially when it was more varied. They sort of just started adding hedgehogs for a while though (Shadow - cool, Silver - OK, Classic Sonic - can we have a different animal please lol). I wonder if Blaze the Cat was the last non hedgehog character introduced into the main-ish line games that sort of-ish stuck around. Except the custom character of sonic forces I suppose.
I actually really like (liked; haven't read the new comics) the Archie comics and the derivative Saturday morning cartoon that's based on it. It's amazing how much narrative complexity and emotional depth they wrangled out of a universe centered around a blue hedgehog. I collected the comics as a kid, and have thought about tracking down whatever volumes exist of it now. Although it was serialized almost as far back as I can remember, so I imagine reading all of it is likely a Herculean feat!
And yeah, Digital Devil Saga 2... it's still a solid, interesting game, overall, like the first was, but Atlus is one of my all-time favorite game developers, so anything that's not A+ work is going to disappoint me a little.
@ralphdibny Thank you for saying so! Alas, it's touchscreen controls are mandatory, as the whole "trace a pattern to execute your PP moves" thing was its unique selling point. You can only choose to use buttons for moving around the menus (I think?) and for executing special actions on the map, like Knuckles climbing a wall or Tails flying over a gap (which you also get a tappable prompt for).
There's always Sticks the Honey Badger, from Sonic Boom, but you're right in naming Blaze as the last recurring addition, I think. I'm currently replaying Sonic Rush Adventure which features her, and she's amazing, by far and away the best female character in the series (followed closely by Sticks). Rush Adventure also has Marine the Racoon, who I now see as a kinda proto-Sticks, but I gather a lot of people didn't like her as much, and it makes narrative sense for her to be a one-shot.
That second track you've highlighted as a particularly bad example is the exact same tune I embedded in my previous retrospective on Sonic 3D Blast. When you consider that it sounded ten times better back on the much older console, you know something's gone wrong somewhere.
Also, consider that Chronicles came a whole year after Rush Adventure, an exclusive DS game boasting a lush soundtrack which is almost too good for a handheld game.
Oh, that's cool! Didn't realise you were a fan, of sorts (although I must admit, the SatAM Sonic cartoon is the only one of the three 90s productions I never watched). Yeah, it's quite impressive, considering the simplicity of Sonic's premise in those 16-bit early years. There's an anime produced around the Dreamcast era called Sonic X which has a lot more material to crib from, so I applaud the creativity of those Archie Comics writers, and can understand how some of them would've felt protective of their original ideas (even if Ken Penders did throw his toys out of the pram a little).
I can imagine making sense of it all is quite a daunting prospect now, especially since they had to wipe the slate clean with a big, fat reset button after Penders left. We get occasional volumes released over here, but I haven't been tempted, particularly since I grew up with a different, long-since-cancelled Sonic comic. Had I been born and raised American, it'd likely be something I'd still follow!
As much as it's awesome to love a developer so strongly, it's also a risk (he says, immediately after discussing Sonic) so I can sympathise with your disappointment with Digital Devil Saga 2 there, however slight it may be. Fingers crossed it picks up towards the end for you!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
"Where are we?"
"I bet it's an abandoned missile silo!"
"Sticks, it's always some crazy conspiracy with you. What makes you think it's a missile silo?"
"The missile."
"Oh."
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@Ralizah I have finally finished doom 64! It's pretty good and I had a read of your review too!
One of the highlights for me was definitely the music. It was brilliant, just really scary. I know they had to tone down the music because of the lack of memory on the N64 cartridge but what they came up with, though vastly different, was excellent. I know I mentioned the constant senses I had when playing doom 1 and 2, this one felt more like Doom 1 where I had the constant sense of dread or indeed "doom". It was very scary and the music really helped with that, especially the track that @RogerRoger mentioned in their reply, with what sounded like screaming babies was terrifying, in a good way.
I think also, the level design is really tight. It's almost like they played on the limitations of the N64 and created stuff where you had these overly complex puzzles all set in a small area because of the lack of memory on the N64 cartridges. It's a good thing though, often limitations or what might seem like an overly restrictive brief can focus a person's artwork into a better product. Free reign can often allow work to dawdle into unremarkability.
That is what plays on the weaknesses but of course the N64 was better in a lot of ways which resulted in the improvements that you mentioned in sprite detail, scripted level modification and the ability for levels to have rooms/pathways over the top of other rooms. I didn't actually realise this was a limitation of the original Doom until a week or two ago when I was reading about the Build engine used for Duke Nukem 3D and how it offered rooms on top of other rooms as a feature.
I'm not sure if I prefer the new designs for the villains, whoever designed the new heathenous pain elementals is probably a heathen themselves! But all in all, I liked the designs, I just don't think I necessarily preferred them over the originals.
Generally I'm not sure if I have a favourite out of the 3 games, they are all really good. Doom will always have a soft spot because it's the one I played as a kid, well at least what was included in the shareware version on PC. It wasn't until I had the GBA version that I found out I had only played a third/quarter of the whole game on PC! Doom 2 was just crazy and I loved it for it and Doom 64 was just a really good tightly designed evolution of the previous 2 games. As a trilogy though, they work really well.
Did you ever get around to the Final Doom megawads out of interest? I can't really remember if you said you did or not. Anyway, I think a short break is in order before I move onto doom 3. Hopefully I can get through that and the expansions before I replay Doom 2016 for game club!
@RogerRoger That Sonic Rush music is pretty fantastic (especially like the boppy Waterbike music)! It is pretty embarrassing how bad the music in TDB is in comparison, I will say. And I guess it makes sense that a bad soundtrack would help to make people feel sour about a game. I don't know about WRPGs that much, but music is an INCREDIBLY big element in any successful JRPG. And the ones people remember most fondly? The timeless ones? Guarantee you half the time people are mentally replaying their favorite tunes in their heads when discussing them.
The Archie comic started off pretty light-hearted, a bit more like Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, but the storylines became more complex and ambitious once it became clear to Archie that people were digging the darker action-adventure vibe of the Sat AM cartoon. And the problem with a comic with long-running arcs is that it becomes easy to lose your place in the narrative and become disengaged.
I'll give it to Sonic: while I do maintain a sort of ironic appreciation for some of the 90s Mario TV shows I've watched over the years (especially the hilarious Super Mario Bros. Super Show), none of them are legitimately good. But Sonic Sat AM? Fantastic show. One of the best saturday morning cartoons ever made. When I was able to keep up with its storylines, I really liked the comic as well. And even Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog had a fun, Looney Tunes-esque appeal to it. I've not watched much of the Sonic anime that have come out over the years, but I'm sure those probably aren't too bad, either.
@ralphdibny Fantastic. Yeah, the sound design in DOOM 64 is remarkable, and does wonders for the atmosphere. I had no idea it was a result of hardware limitations, but it seems like that's often a thing with horror, like the original Silent Hill and how its iconic fog effect was used to mask a short draw distance.
The level design is probably the area that saw the most improvement over previous DOOM games, IMO.
I've unfortunately not had the opportunity to play Final DOOM yet, although I think I'll make a point of returning to that next year after I've completed DOOM 64 and Eternal on PC.
I think DOOM 2016 is due right after Hollow Knight, right? It'll be soon, so I don't expect you're due for much of a break unless you skip past DOOM 3 entirely for the moment.
@Ralizah I decided to fact check my comment just to be sure I wasnt spreading misinformation. Turns out it was a similar or same soundtrack for the psx port of the original doom that had the memory constraints but it had to be adapted to the different memory constraints of the N64 when it was used for doom 64. I didn't read this whole article, just glanced over the relevant bits but this is an interview with the composer (that somehow manages to digress before even getting to the crux of the interview):
I'm sure/hope it'll be fine, I'll probably spend next week playing doom 3 and I'm not sure when they'll move on from hollow knight but sounds like they're all in the endgame so I imagine it'll be in the next week or two. maybe I'll be playing a bit of catch up and miss the first week of doom16 but I don't remember it being a very long game anyway so I doubt I'll have much trouble catching up!
I think we're on a similar track with final doom, I plan to get eternal if the deluxe edition that includes the season pass goes down to a reasonable price in black Friday sales, it's currently sitting at around £50 so hopefully it gets a bit cheaper!
I don't know about WRPGs that much, but music is an INCREDIBLY big element in any successful JRPG. And the ones people remember most fondly? The timeless ones? Guarantee you half the time people are mentally replaying their favorite tunes in their heads when discussing them.
...you've just accurately summarised my relationship with Sonic, so whilst I may not "get" the whole JRPG thing, I can totally understand what you mean!
I've got the entire Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog cartoon on DVD, because it's disposable fun that I used to stick on (along with Wacky Races) whenever I was home with man-flu. The UK's own Sonic comic also used some of its designs, most prominently for their version of Doctor Robotnik, so it feels instantly comfortable and familiar to me.
As much as I adore and respect Mike Pollock's talent, I also have a hard time shaking Long John Baldry's distinctive voice from my head whenever I read Robotnik / Eggman dialogue anywhere.
Given your effusive praise of SatAM Sonic, I should see about tracking it down someplace, especially whilst my current Sonic mood holds. Back when I used to socialise with fellow fans, you'd often find individuals split on which was better, SatAM or Adventures. Nice to know there's a balance to be found!
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@ralphdibny I didn't know that about the DOOM 64 soundtrack either! Thanks for the interesting read, and for tagging me in amongst your thoughts on the game. We largely agree (surprise surprise!) particularly about the level design, and how it feels tight and focused whilst retaining those traditional maze-like puzzle elements in their various layouts. Whenever I play some of the older DOOM games, I feel myself get a little bored with their rinse-and-repeat structure, but DOOM 64 definitely held my attention the longest, and didn't outstay its welcome. Good stuff, glad you enjoyed!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
Nice Digital Devil Saga 2 impressions @Ralizah. I still haven’t got round to replacing my PS2, so haven’t resumed the first game yet. Do you know if Altus ever intended DDS to be one game?
Brilliant Sonic Chronicles review @RogerRoger with some interesting facts regarding the development. Like the Super Mario series, Sonic always seemed well-suited to being transplanted into other genres. RPGs are particularly great because they allow the opportunity to create the kinds of stories and characterisations lacking in the core platforming games, while building on the aesthetic elements that fans love. The artwork looks lovely, but yeesh that music sounds like it was produced by vengeful school children. It’s one area that seems to have been consistently excellent throughout the series, so to hear that is a genuine disappointment.
@mookysam Thanks for saying so, and glad you enjoyed it! No matter what happens to him on a game-by-game basis, Sonic is gonna be around as long as gaming is, so there's always a chance somebody will take another swipe at putting him in an RPG.
In the meantime, we have Chronicles and yeah, like I say, play it on mute and you'll do fine!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
@RogerRoger It's a bit weird seeing that Robotnik design in a not explicitly goofy context. Although it kinda fits, because the design is also creepy.
As to Sat AM vs Adventures, I mean... I have my preference, of course, but they're such radically different shows that it doesn't make much sense to compare them. But I do think it's worth tracking down. I'm glad I bought the DVD collection when I did, though, because, after a cursory look online, it seems to be weirdly expensive. Probably oop, I'm guessing.
Anyway, Jim Cummings will always be MY Robotnik
@mookysam DDS1 actually has unused placeholder pause menu graphics for characters that only appear in DDS2, so it seems likely that it was originally conceived of as one project and then, early in development, it was decided that the project scope was too large for one game.
@Ralizah Holy moley, that is one creepy Robotnik clip! Although of course it'd be Jim Cummings, he's great at that particular brand of sinister. You're right, judging from that clip, both shows are radically different and then some. I'll have a proper DVD hunt later because, as you predicted, they're out of print. Amazon doesn't even have any third-party sellers listing the set. Here's hoping my eBay luck holds!
"We want different things, Crosshair. That doesn't mean that we have to be enemies."
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