Topic: The TV Show Thread

@RogerRoger
I suppose a key thing is that, for all of the previous Doctors grandiose posturing, there was a usually a purposeful and and least competently directed delivery. Even every time the Doctor waxed lyrical on the merits or folly of the human race or the villainous machinations of whoever was about that week - it was part of what was going on.

With 13, JW usually seems like she's paused to give a lecture - no matter the situation. And make no mistake, the lecture is aimed at you, the viewer.

I saw a thing Peter Weller did once about direction and being directed on film; his point was about people being filmed in a moving car, with one actor being the driver. Weller was critical of the vast majority of classic cinema and shows that really fail to portray the supposed driver actually driving. The focus being usually on dialogue of the scene rather the fact that these are supposed to be people travelling somewhere.
He went on to talk about why someone is in any specific place in any specific scene; 'why is the character in that space? What are they doing there? Would they be in that space if not for this being a scene designed to deliver dialogue?' - I think he gave some examples, but it reminds me of 13's run quite a bit. There's a lot of movement through locations and scenes that seems entirely contrived and at odds with how people (The Doctor included) can reasonably be expected to behave. Couple that with the penchant for launching moral tirades towards the audience, it becomes off-putting.

@RogerRoger
As an aside, I've decided to make good effort at going the the 'Eighth Doctor Adventure books'. I've read a couple before, but I might try and do all 77(!).
Starting off with 'The Eight Doctors' - already noticed something that became canon through error and something that I fully expect to be expanded on in 13's next season

@KALofKRYPTON I've been struggling to define exactly why I was less keen on the 13th Doctor's run, but your posts sums up my feelings rather well.

Shows having moral lessons can work well if they're well-written, but it always works best when they're subtle with it. With the 13th Doctor, the moral lessons stick out like a sore thumb, partially because they feel directed towards the viewer. Being told about how humans are bad because of something or that this other thing is really bad can quickly break my immersion, and does damper my enjoyment of the show somewhat.

My other complaints are that there's too much of a focus on the companions' lives, and that there's too much focus on Earth (especially present day Earth) instead of travelling through time and space to various alien worlds. At times it can feel like a soap opera instead of a fun sci-fi adventure.

But most of my complaints are directed towards the writers. With the various other issues making things murky, it's hard for me to judge how good I think Jodie Whittaker is as the Doctor.

@RogerRoger More. There was another series too by Virgin books I think.
Also, as far as I know, none of the books or audio dramas are strictly canon. Think of it like how Disney treats the Star Wars EU.

@crimsontadpoles Well, many of the current writers are soap veterans, so there is that.

I'm actually OK with the companions this time around. Graham specifically. Bradley Walsh is great in his role. Ryan and Yaz largely just seem 'there' sometimes, I don't mind them on the whole, and no one has turned out to be cosmically important so far, which is refreshing for new Who.
I'd rather Yaz and Ryan were the ones leaving though. Or just ditch all three and pick up a companion from the future or an 'alien' or something.
Big companion rosters can work, but having them all from the same place and time and largely there for exposition in the guise of 'good guy' ignorance - it is a bit boring.
When 5 was travelling with Turlough, Nyssa and Tegan, they managed some great interplay; Turlough a potential traitor but scientifically adept, Tegen the ignorant-then contemporary human and Nyssa an alien from a technologically advanced planet.

I agree. JW feels hard to gauge. She has moments where it seems to click, but it does feel like it needs to click.
There are no real introspective moments or solo adventures for her either which doesn't help. While I've commented before about the saccharine sentimentality of new Who, the times when 9, 10, 11 and 12 were alone served up some great characterisation.

So far, I think it is almost fair to say that 13 is being treated nearly as badly as 6 (OK, that's a bit of a stretch).

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy Verisimilitude!
He does well at coming across as a bloke in a situation rather than a narrative device.

You could be right; JW could just be out of her depth - but I do think she has the potential to be good in the role. There isn't much of a change in the second run for 13, other than some episodes being marginally better (and some, significantly worse).

Go for it for 12. Variable quality throughout his run and I get the feeling that the shooting order clashed with the trajectory of Capaldi's characterisation and direction, but it does get steadily better for the most part. I've always seen Clara as a bit of a millstone for 12 - but on a re-watch, she's better for 12 than she was 11. I was glad when BIll turned up though.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy
I took me a while to appreciate some of Tenant's stuff - again, soppy sentimentality ruins quite a lot of it. As well as the 'sonic screwdriver' fixes everything!

Ecclestone was given a bit of a bum-deal. The BBC essentially lied when he left/was forced out, and said that he was only intended for the first season and that it was totally his decision etc etc. It's only very recently that he's started talking about it.

I loved Penny Dreadful! And Eva Green is great in it too! What a terrible shame the last half of the final season was! She would be very good.

I'd have liked to have seen someone with a bit more presence than JW has so far. Katie McGrath, Lara Pulver - along those lines - or even an older, more commanding woman leading on from Capaldi. Someone along the lines of Charlotte Rampling.

@Foxy-Goddess-Scotchy well he is leaving in the special this year so your mum should be happy, so is Tosin with only Mandip staying so Yaz might actually get development next series

@RogerRoger
The Thrawn trilogy has the potential to make you scream at how inadequate the Disney trilogy is in comparison! The two afterwards aren't as good, but I never did read the most recent canon one.

Also, I'm very much enjoying The Eight Doctors so far. Nicely handled trip down memory lane - Venusian Aikido included! 😁

Michelle Gomez was HILARIOUS as Missy. I really miss that iteration of the The Master.

Has the current run with Jodie Whittaker improved at all? I watched the new run of the show religiously for years from Eccleston up through halfway into her first season. I barely managed to survive the terrible last season or two of Capaldi's run (such a shame, because I loved the concept of his doctor), but as of last season, the show became practically unrecognizable to me, like all of the fun was sucked out of it.

Not a fan of JW's performance, but if the writing were decent, I could look past it. I miss Doctor Who being good.

@Ralizah I'd say that Jodie Whittaker's second season in Doctor Who is about the same as her first, maybe just very slightly more tolerable. If you weren't keen on the first season then you're unlikely to feel any different about the latest season.

I've watched all of her episodes, but overall haven't been too fond of them.

In a hypothetical world where COVID19 dictates that I be locked up for 2 weeks unable to leave home and I actually finish all my gaming and other Netflix, Amazon Prime, and movie backlog.... wait what I am saying? This will never happen. Anyways, in such a fantasy world, which if any of the DC/Arrowverse shows should I watch? I’m a complete noob on that world. Watched a couple seasons of Arrow and got bored of it a couple years ago. Or would it be better to watch all the Marvel shows. Similarly I watched the first half of season one of Daredevil and it just didn’t hold my attention. Are there even any good superhero TV series out there that don’t become complete garbage after the first few episodes?

@Th3solution
If Arrow bored you, then the majority of the Arrowverse leans the same way. The Flash is pretty good for the first few seasons, as is Supergirl - but the formulaic nature bogs them down a touch. Conversely, Legends of Tomorrow is hot garbage, but becomes increasingly entertaining hot garbage once Arthur Darvill leaves from season 3 onward and the production really leans in to absurdity.
Swamp Thing was great.
Titans is trash, but looks nice and remains oddly compelling somehow (car crash effect possibly).
Black Lightning starts OK but gets quite good, haven't got to see any of season 3 yet.
Doom Patrol is great by all accounts.
Batwoman is awful.

As for Marvel, the second season of Luke Cage is absolute dynamite! The first is OK too, but that second!!
Daredevil varies wildly - lots (and lots) of meandering.
Iron Fist starts terribly. Second season was pretty great though.
Jessica Jones started well, but diminishing returns.
Defenders was OK - but don't bother if you haven't watched the rest of the Netflix stuff.
Punisher is quite good, but I can't stand Bernthall's grunting!
Agent Carter was apparently great, but I never watched any of it
Agents of SHIELD is like Torchwood, but worse.

Obviously, your mileage for all of this may well depend on your familiarity with the characters.

@KALofKRYPTON Yeah, my exposure to DC is limited to the major cinema outings, knowledge over the years of the basic major characters of The Justice League, and whatever I got from playing Injustice and Injustice 2.

I guess I have FOMO about the CW shows, but it seems like I’m not missing all that much. It seems like a large time investment that I just don’t feel inclined to put out.

@KALofKRYPTON @RogerRoger yeah none of the "expanded" stuff is canon in Doctor Who although some elements of it may be used in episodes (such as meeting Mary Shelley which had already happened in the Big Finish Audio Dramas)

but basically like with Star Trek and yes like it always was with Star Wars too (before Disney took over and wanted to make a multimedia franchise out of it) only the stuff on screen, ala the show and the film is "true canon"

@FullbringIchigo Apart from the Shadows of the Empire run for Star Wars I think. That was canon, but I'm not sure if it is anymore. Probably not.

@KALofKRYPTON i'm still unsure on that one actually but if it was or wasn't is a mute point because it isn't canon now, although the ship, the Outrider is because you can see it in A New Hope leaving Mos Eisley

https://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/04/30/shadows-of-the-empires...

@Th3solution The Netflix Marvel series has some really great and memorable villains.

@RogerRoger I’d forgotten about Gotham. Good to know that it’s worth a gander. Looks like it’s available on Netflix too, so that helps. Is it “finished”? Or are more seasons forthcoming?

@Th3solution Gotham is done now, no new seasons incomng

@Th3solution I can wholeheartedly recommend Watchmen, Doom Patrol and the animated Harley Quinn series for DC TV shows. Each of them has only one season so far, so they're easy watches. Watchmen is basically TV perfection, and one of the best single seasons of TV from last year. Doom Patrol is campy, silly fun that is incredibly consistent throughout all of its 15 episodes. Harley Quinn is fantastic if you enjoy her character, and there's lots of cameos from other DC characters throughout the show. Really, if you want quality DC shows, you shouldn't be looking at the CW ones. Sad but true.

As far as Marvel on TV goes, they have a bit of a lesser presence there for now. I really enjoy Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., more so than I've probably enjoyed any of the movies. A really fun cast of characters, although season 1 can be rocky at the start. It's definitely a bit more of a generic procedural show at the start. If you really want to watch something that's totally out there, watch Legion. Legion is incredible. It's easily the best thing to have come out of Marvel, whether it's TV or film. It can be an acquired taste however, but if you enjoy some style over substance here and there, you're guaranteed to have a good time. As mentioned before, Jessica Jones S1 is also fantastic, but you can ignore the following seasons. Luckily the first season isn't open-ended, so it'll be satisfactory on its own.