Topic: Final fantasy discussion thread

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@Tjuz I had typed up a reply to you and then had one of those weird Push Square moments when I lost my post and it didn’t save and so I’m just now getting the reply re-composed. 😅 And I decided to move the conversation from the GOTY thread over here to the Final Fantasy one, since that’s the main topic I’m rambling on about. 😄

But first on the subject of demos - I’m with you, in that I usually know whether a game is up my alley by simply watching trailers, reading a couple reviews, and maybe some brief YouTube playthrough footage. The usefulness of demos is limited to those that I’m on the fence about even after all that previewing. Octopath Traveller 2 is definitely one of those situations, so thanks for alerting me to the presence of the demo option.

And yeah, Square Enix is pretty good about having demos. FF7 Remake has one which I actually tried before I bought and liked. It’s basically the first section of the game. In fact, I see that FF16 has a demo too, so you may want to check that out. I didn’t play the demo so not sure how good it is at representing the game.

Occasionally a demo misfires. I think Square-Enix hurt themselves with the Forspoken demo. Rather than being an early section of the game, it’s just a slice of the game in the middle where the hero already has several powers already and you can wander the open world for a time. It came across rather confusing and a bit boring because there was no context to what’s going on and it didn’t keep my interest. The game turned out to be rather poorly received anyway, so perhaps there was no positive way to represent it in the demo. Either way, I don’t think many people were sold on the game through the demo.

So the use of demos is a risk, as well as a cost to have a team spend time developing the demo for release. As a result most games don’t have demos anymore. And like we said, they’re mostly unnecessary with all the Let’s Play footage out there. But sometimes you just have to play the game yourself and see how it clicks.

But back to Final Fantasy -
With FF13, you’re right - it’s surprising that it got a full trilogy when it was mostly maligned by fandom after release. It just goes to show that sometimes the internet discourse doesn’t always sync with how well a game is selling. That, and I wonder if the reception in Japan was better than in the West and that success convinced them to keep making games in the FF13 series. I’m not sure. (— A quick internet search does confirm that the game sold quite well, especially in Japan). And many of us actually liked FF13. I liked it enough to buy the sequel FF13-2 and I was enjoying it until I just finally dropped it halfway through, due to some life circumstances at the time. And so I never ended up playing 13-3 Lightning Returns since firstly, I never finished 13-2, and secondly, 13-3 came out right around the launch of the PS4 iirc and it was (and still is) exclusively on the PS3. In fact the whole trilogy is locked on PS3. A modern remaster for PS5 would definitely pique my interest so I could return and see the series to its completion. But unlike @graymamba I’m not motivated to turn on my PS3 to go back to any of those titles I missed that are stranded on that console. I’m fairly certain that if I turn on my PS3 that the amount of updates it would require to work would overload the electric grid. And I really don’t want to be responsible for people going without the heating in this weather. 😜

As for why I skipped FF15, that’s a messy topic. I actually pre-ordered the game and was super hyped for it. I had some real life situations going on that distracted me from it and as days turned into weeks and then into months, I never found a place for it in my schedule. I came to identify the game with a tumultuous period of my personal life and lost any will to play it, even after things settled down. And as you mentioned, the fact that the game ended up launching somewhat incomplete didn’t help either. Eventually Sony gave it away, the ‘completed’ Royal Edition, through PS+ or one of their COVID play at home initiatives and so I think I sold back my unused disc at that point to recoup some of my money. I still have the digital copy and maybe I’ll get to it eventually. It also doesn’t help that it’s still had a rather lukewarm reception overall and other games feel more pressing to experience. It does stick out as a hole in my FF repertoire though, which bothers my obsessive-compulsiveness; It and FF13-3.

On the subject of random combat encounters — you mentioned how you dislike them and so you may wish to consider that if you ever feel tempted to try the older titles. I can’t remember exactly as it’s all a blur with FF games coming out every 1-2 years back in the day, but I think FF12 was the first of the series to do away with random encounters and you have the ability to see enemies on the map and can avoid them while exploring. The Pixel Remasters may have added options to avoid random encounters, but I don’t know. It supposedly added some modernized quality of life enhancements and that may be one of them.

And finally, FF10 and 10-2… I guess for Blitzball, “underwater dodgeball” is as good a description as any. I can’t even remember the exact rules of the game. I think it’s more like underwater soccer or football. Although with verticality in a 3-dimensional field of play. Maybe quidditch is actually a pretty accurate comparison. 😂

But if memory serves, you can ignore a lot of the Blitzball minigames, similar to how you can skip the Gwent stuff in Witcher 3. There’s some rewards for winning games I think, but I don’t think there’s essential items or plot points and participating is mostly optional. Blitzball is central to the plot since Tidus is a Blitzball player and there’s other party members that play too, so narratively speaking you have to engage with it, but not in the gameplay, per se. I think Wakka’s attack involves throwing a ball at the enemy, so thematically it’s there, but not mechanically.

As for its sequel, 10-2, it sounds like you’d really like it if the idea of a girl band isn’t an immediate turn-off. 😄 Because the game itself is pretty good. The combat is a job/class-based system and so your party of girls change clothes when you change their job roles (like from a healer to a slasher or a mage, etc). You can switch classes mid-battle through the use of “dress spheres” on the “garment grid”. I’ve joked that it feels a lot like Final Fantasy: The Barbie Dress-Up Edition, but it’s actually mechanically deep and has all the RPG elements. It’s just the girl dress-up features and pop-music elements are how the roles are shown thematically. Do you need to play 10 to play 10-2? Yeah, probably best. There’s clear narrative links between the two, as nonsensical and corny as they are. FFX ends in a pretty definitive way, and so this story is more about life after events in the first game, rather than tying up an unresolved narrative cliffhanger, if that’s makes sense. It would be perfectly reasonable to watch a summary of FFX though, and then jump into X-2 if you really like the sound of it and want to fast track to it. You’ll lose a little context and feeling for the world and locations, but it would be okay.

Regardless, the world is your oyster as far as Final Fantasy, and there’s multiple ways you could try out the franchise. FF7 Remake is probably the best first step. FF16 is another good one. But you could always do some of the older titles, or of course, none at all. 😄

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@Th3solution Ah! I've been summoned into the nerdiest of all the nerdy places! A Final Fantasy thread! Long have I dreaded this day, but I shall succumb to it without struggle (aside from the mild complaining already). I applaud (and appreciate) you for rewriting your whole response though. This wasn't just a short reply! If that happened to me, I think I would flip my table in rage and then cry that I broke my computer probably. I usually pre-emptively write out all my replies in Google Docs and then copy/paste to prevent this exact situation. Maybe this contributes to me also being the intense yapper I am... Ah well, let's not think about it too hard. That's not my vibe.

Frankly, I'm even more avoidant of anything about a game than you are I think. Playing a demo is a huge step for me, especially as I intensely hate replaying sections in games no matter how small. That extends to me even watching just video coverage or reading about whole sections of the game. I try to go in entirely blind. A short synopsis of what the narrative/mechanics are about, a genre and maybe some pedigree from a developer I like is usually enough for me to decide whether I want to give it a shot. I don't really search out more than that either, unless I'm already incredibly excited for a game and know I will enjoy it and play through it nonetheless. Then replaying something I've already seen or read feels like less harm to me, since I know I will get through it without issue anyway. I don't know if that makes any sense. The brain is a weird place to be. Octopath Traveler II had the benefit of it just being the start of the game with cross-progression to the main game... though now I'll eventually anyway be replaying the first chapters of two characters whenever I get to it.

I think (and don't count me on it) I heard that the FF16 demo was very action-focused and based around one of the areas in the middle of the game. It sounded to me like that's why there was such a difference between the reception of it compared to the main game. It took one of the highlights of the narrative apparently and put that forward as a representation of the full game. I guess you can do a quick Google to see exactly what part it is and if I'm selling you any bullcrap here, but my senses tell me I'm remembering the discourse correctly. It definitely seemed like a case of the demo doing a disservice to the game when it came out at least, but only because it just upped the expectations a little bit too much. As a question on the side: if Werehog is to be believed, I saw you occasionally have a reluctance to pre-planned DLC. Did you end up playing the DLC for FF16? I don't think I've ever seen anyone talking about them, so I wonder what the consensus on those were compared to the eventual reception of the main game.

That's interesting that FF13 sold so well in Japan and was presumably better received there! Why do you personally think that was? Is it tonally just more tuned into the Japanese public, or do you think there was some other reason for why there was such a difference in reception? I'm happy to hear that you enjoyed it at least, which is ultimately the only thing that matters. I have now assigned you as my resident Final Fantasy expert, and therefore only your opinion will be taken seriously. A shame you missed out on completing the sequel despite your enjoyment of it. Shocking to me that it hasn't made its way to more modern consoles by now. I thought pretty much every single one of the games in the series were available on PS4/PS5? They even remastered the PSP Crisis Core we've talked about before! Though I guess that one was specifically playing into the hype of the FF7 remakes, so that makes sense there. Hopefully they'll get to it eventually so you can finally play it to its completion without being sued for sabotaging the electricity. First AI with taking away all the water, now you with all the electricity! How much more can go wrong in the US?

Sorry to hear that life got and continues to get in the way of you enjoying FF15. It sucks when stuff we got excited about get attached to all these negative feelings surrounding it. I've definitely had that experience with stuff here and there, so I get it. Do you have similar feelings with FF13-2 since you also said life got in the way there, or is that really just exclusively the PS3 prison holding you back? Maybe one day you'll get to experience both of them and fix up this hole. Neither seem like the most pressing of priorities to you at least, so maybe within the next decade I can touch base with you on that one. And another random question regarding FF's you (might not have) played, I wonder if you touched Stranger of Paradise: Final Fantasy Origin at all? It always struck me as such an odd duck in the series being a spin-off of one of the least played games in the series by now probably. I know you didn't play the first 6, so I'm sure you have no nostalgia for it, but I wonder if you still gave it a shot.

It's good to know that any games from FF12 and on don't have random encounters. That's definitely a plus in my book, even if I'm slightly more open to the concept of them after having gotten used to JRPGs more. Both Metaphor and Xenoblade were ones where you could actively avoid the encounters, but funnily enough... as soon as I had the choice to not engage, I started choosing to engage with every enemy on the map. It's a bit hypocritical, but I guess it's about not having a choice that gets to me? It's another one of those weird brain things, but now that I've realised that about myself, maybe knowing I'd engage anyway will soften the blow of them being ''random''. I haven't tried any game with random encounters since playing those games, so I'll find out eventually whether that's true or not.

Do you enjoy engaging with those kinds of side-games within games like Blitzball and Gwent? I honestly tend to avoid them unless the narrative calls for them, so I imagine it'd be much the same within FF10. I think I did a few Gwent battles in The Witcher 3 to complete some side quests, but eventually stopped doing them as soon as I realised they got too hard without actively customising my deck. I couldn't be bothered to do that, so I just ignored the whole minigame from that moment on. I'm trying to remember what side-games like that I did engage with, but I'm drawing a blank. Not even because I can think of many I chose to ignore, but simply because I can't even think of a single other side-game that fits the mold. Maybe this is where my lack of love for open-world design starts showing, since I feel like that's usually the types they show up in. Even playing The Last of Us: Part II these last few days, I've disliked the more open-ended sections of Seattle Day 1. I hope there's not too much of that splattered throughout the game and it starts being more consistently linear again.

Do I hear dress spheres? Garment grids? Barbie Dress-Up Edition? No one has ever been selling me this hard on a game before. My completionism will require that I finish X first at least, but this is a great motivation to prioritise that one. Not sure how many people you will convince with a description like this... maybe I'm one of the few, but I appreciate a game that sounds like it's specifically catered towards me! I'll see in what order I start tackling the franchise. Most likely, I will start with the 7 Remakes as they're just the most relevant currently and it's best I get that going before the third game is also out already. Whatever I choose and whenever I do, my resident FF expert will be the first to hear about it!

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@Tjuz I truly have pulled you into the depths of nerdom! 😂 If we Final Fantasy fans have our way, you shall never be normal again!

As for demos and replaying sections, I think we’re on the same page. I’m not fond of replaying long sections. And yet for some reason I don’t mind farming for souls over and over in Souls games. I guess the difference is there’s still progress being made in that situation, as opposed to replaying part of a game again where you end up at the exact same place in progression with no additional XP or anything.

Regarding the FF16 demo, I looked it up and it does appear you are mostly correct, although according to IGN, the demo has two parts, the first is the opening section of the game and the second is a carved out battle from later on. I guess they wanted to cover both bases and show the opening of it and also give a taste of one of the huge boss battles for which the game is known for. According to the article it’s a boss battle, which if I recall correctly is still early-ish in the game. Perhaps the 2nd or 3rd boss…? But it does drop you in with more advanced skills and magic to get a taste of that. The particular boss included is one of the more underwhelming bosses compared to the late game encounters, from what I remember. So if you do choose to try it then take that into account. So yeah, the demo isn’t going to be a true barometer most likely.

And yes, Werehog knows me well, I have an aversion to DLC in general, but especially pre-planned DLC, as in the type that comes with a launch roadmap, season pass, or other scheduled expansion for some future date post-launch. I’m weird that way. Part of me feels a little short changed as if I’m getting an incomplete product if it’s clearly scheduled for development but not included. And I know a lot of games are perfectly complete games and the planned DLC is not carved out to sell separately, but some of them do seem that way (with FF15 being a prime example). I don’t mind post-launch DLC when it’s announced later after a game has clearly been a hit and the team wants to add more content for the fans. It’s just when they are up front saying “Here’s this game and then in 4 months you’ll get this part of it… but go ahead and pay for it now, sight unseen”. Some DLC ends up being really good and I quite like the option to buy a complete edition with all the DLC a year to two later (like I was mentioning earlier with the FromSoft games over on the other thread. Another example would be the Legendary Edition of Mass Effect). But in the case of FF16, no, I didn’t play any of the DLC and I think the reception was mixed. One of them had a lukewarm reception and the other was apparently pretty good. As much as I liked the game, by the time the DLC launched, I was over and done with it and had moved on.

As for FF13, yes indeed it is a weird outlier by being the mainline entry, aside from the online only multiplayer FF11, that is not playable now on PS4/PS5. There was the front page article this week that mentioned that and how a PS5 version would make a lot of sense for the upcoming anniversary.

On the subject of whether FF13-2 has any collateral negative feelings attached, maybe a little. Not as severe as FF15 but there was some unrelated turmoil that it became associated with. And Stranger of Paradise… no, I never tried it. I came close a few times but it just didn’t really do well commercially or critically, and I never got the feeling that it was good enough to invest the time.

As far as side games and open world mechanics, the FF games tend to have some minor mini-games, although most of them are smaller diversions that don’t really require a whole separate strategy and large time commitment. Blitzball is relatively unique in that regard, because I do remember spending a lot of time with it, building my team, playing matches, strategizing, upgrading players and so forth. It’s probably the most ‘into’ a side-game that I’ve ever been. Usually I skip over them and only engage with them when required, like you did with Gwent. When I retry Witcher 3 later this year I do wonder if I’ll latch onto Gwent or not, but when I first tried playing W3 I played the one intro Gwent match and it didn’t interest me. The most recent similar example I ran into is Star War Outlaws, which has among other diversions, a card game called Sabacc and I barely played that, only doing so when the main quests made me do it.

If you can’t remember any games you’ve played with major mini-games then you must not have played any Yakuza games. Yakuza is the poster child for mini-games and side diversions. Lots of side games both small arcadey games and large time-sink simulation games. It’s really overload. I have heard frequently that FF7 Rebirth’s mini-games are rather egregious, so fair warning. Remake only has a few, so you’re safe there.

I’m glad that I mentioned FFX-2 then, because yes, I didn’t know that it would sound so appealing to you. It is one of the forgotten games in the franchise. If the description of the garment grid and dress sphere system integrated into a solid JRPG excites you, then I believe you owe it to yourself to consider it. It sounds like X-2 was tailor made for you! (pun unintended 😂) And maybe that would be a good approach to prioritize X and X-2 after trying VII Remake.

And just to clarify, because you probably mentioned it but I must have missed it or forgotten (which I’m apt to do lately), is this your first playthrough of TLoU2? What an awesome game that is, and I’d really like to hear how you’re getting along with it. It’s clear that you’ve not liked the open area (don’t worry, that’s probably the most ‘open-world’ part although some later areas have some openness, especially related to combat encounters, but the story path is more linear through most of it) but how are you feeling about the game overall and the story? I thought the combat was brilliant and the story a masterpiece. I’d love to hear how you’re coming along over here:
https://www.pushsquare.com/forums/ps4/the_last_us_part_ii_-_o...

Heaven forbid we mix The Last of Us discussion in a Final Fantasy thread. The resulting disruption to the ether from crossing those two diametrical wires would spell doom for the whole galaxy.

—Sincerely,
Resident Final Fantasy Expert (but not really)