Topic: Game Themes, Settings, and Backdrops - the When’s, the Where’s, and the Who’s

@Ravix Yes, no worries, mate. Agree with what you’re saying in general.

The discussion surrounding AC Shadows is its own puzzle, but I generally feel (and this is what I was alluding to in the article comments) that fictional history is a good thing, especially when it inspires people to look up, investigate, and learn the actual true history behind the fiction. I’ve learned many things through that method — seeing a show or playing a game that’s loosely based on a historical setting or character and then having my interest piqued to read about the real people and places referenced. Gaming and good movies/TV makes history ‘come alive’ and is so much better than just reading a textbook in school.

However, the problem arises when fiction is presented as fact, and purposefully created to deceive or influence others for some purpose or scheme. I actually don’t think this happens very often though.
And secondly, some of the public is unable to differentiate between fact and fiction which is inspired by fact, and so will go about their lives believing that, I don’t know - George Washington was in kahoots with Napolean Bonaparte as a member of an international Illuminati organization. Or maybe some idiots believe King Arthur was a real person, for example. 😜 Unfortunately, some people are gullible and unable to think critically. 😄.

@Th3solution
George Washington was a vampire hunter
Achilles fought Joan of Arc
Zhuge Liang was a pop idol star
Sima Yan was a cute anime girl
Masamune Date used his horse like a motorcycle and fought with six swords and spoke fluent English

@Yousef- how disrespectful of those cultures to fictionalise anything about them. Begone, foul cur!

And there lies the problem with this AC hoohah being such a big thing to people. It really is not a big thing. It's just because it happens to be a black man and a woman. And that is adding a whole bunch of loud voices to the mix that aren't really bothered about culture in any way, and I imagine the character Yasuke in the game will be far more cultured than those... ahem, self censorship mode kicks in.

The fact that half the internet arguments seem to not even recognise that there is a female lead character from Japan in the game kind of makes it feel it is as much a sexism issue as anything. There's even memes about how she is the most successful assassin of the series as no one has noticed her 😂

@th3solution

Yeah, it was only the mention of the discussion you were having that made me rant about the overall Internet witch hunt that is kicking in to full gear. It's been properly blown out of proportion. And I'd much rather talk about it with regular people lile yourselves, than those... types

@Ravix those are legendary memes. And yes, I also heard there’s a petition from….. non Japanese people. How silly! It’s one thing to respond to genuine criticism from those with an authentic PoV, but it’s different when it’s just a lousy snot nosed bratty keyboard warriors.

And besides, Yasuke’s depiction peaked with Koei’s Samurai Warriors 5 anyways.

@Yousef- Uh, correction — it was Abraham Lincoln who was the vampire hunter.

And look at that, another reason to try Samurai Warriors 5.

With that in mind, I expect an academically researched 100 page analysis comparing and contrasting the depiction of Yasuke in the two games on my desk by the Monday following AC: Shadows release. If you don’t hit deadline I cut your pay by 75%.

@Th3solution LOOOOL, I actually did come off incredibly strong there upon a re-read (don’t worry I’m extremely difficult to actually annoy). Funny part, I was even preparing this giant “patriotic gamer” speech I was gonna post about how playing GTA IV was no longer about Artistic integrity but about your patriotic duty towards the gaming nation to fight the evils of Jack Thomson… but my sleep deprivation overcame me. XD

But yes I’d definitely have to apologize there. I tend to come off, let’s say, passionate. and you may have deduced this isn’t my first time coming across these complaints either, and the fact I hold IV to such an insane regard.

In regards to the Jack tompson rant, while it was gonna be in gist, I did actually plan to sneak a serious complaint about how while he clearly failed to stop violent video games, I think he may have had succeeded at convincing people gta was this mindlessly violent game with no depth or character and that’s when I really started to get pretty passionate in my writing.

Lol, you get brownie points for that MCU diss. But you’re not a comic book nerd so I won’t waste your time.

I find the CoD discourse to be… a bloated one. Which is why I neglected to bring it up as a comparison, despite the fact it would be completely valid to do so. Remember my point about comparative writing? I was afraid bringing up CoD would run the risk of detracting from my main point. So I played it safe. Luckily we do seem to be on a similar wavelength, however.

“Similar style of storytelling”

Similar quality? Yes. Similar style? Well, one is a cowboy drama, the other is an underworld crime drama. I’m sure you can do the math.

One thing to note about IV is that despite being in NY setting, it deliberately avoided being a drama about Italian mafia as they worried it was too worn out by now and needed a pallet cleanser (how right they were). GTA IV instead might be inspired by Russian dramas.

I understand where you’re coming from with the ND comment but I will verify once again not to hang on that thought. Not a solid comparison when talking GTA vs RDR. As a matter of fact, this rivalry does not exist. It’s a fabrication from so called “R* fans” who played RDR but never gave GTA a proper shot. Downplaying GTA because it’s not like your precious Yeehaw-simulator is something seeped in ignorance. And by the by, RDR isn’t ungoofy. If you never played Undead Nightmare, you will be revoked of your RDR fan status. (Unless that wasn’t ported outside of 7th gen in which case, R* may kindly go kick a goose).

You’re right about using the Suckerpunch example I will quickly shoot down one part I disagree with and that inFamous is still pretty serious and I don’t quite recommend downplaying that part just to make GoT seem… serious-er…. This language needs new words.

Huh, BioWare, I will keep wise and not say anything there since I did not finish their rpgs yet but one day I will do a giant WRPG binge one day, with ME being on a high priority list.

ME as in… mass effect… not me as in caps…

Yeah, GTA definitely has high praise. I got pretty strict in my wording because GTA can be a big victim of moronic comparisons. But yes 4 and 5 are highly praised, for different reasons, but still have similarly high quality gameplay and story. Both are a ride and both are… longer than your average campaign? I feel that might be unnecessary to mention but it’s not harmful to point out.

Your list of “popular games I don’t like” is shockingly similar to mine. Some of the examples you mentioned are things I frankly can’t get behind. CP, as an example, still looking like it’s in pre-alpha for me.

Hmmm you make a fair point about expectations. This might be a tall order, but go into both with a relaxed mind. Don’t worry about anything and just have fun.

You know, I kinda wanna discuss the whole “gta and Minecraft are best sellers” as I believe there’s an angle that English speakers are ignorant to and that’s the absence of a language barrier.

(Also as a random tanget, I don’t like Minecraft. There I said it)

Don’t worry about length, I have an extremely high attention span. But I have an issue where I miss edits. If you make a major addition to your comment, please put at the bottom for easier navigation.

@Th3solution personally I have no problem with comparisons, or questions of connective-tissue between the GTA and RDR games. While there is clearly differences in terms of era and tone, they are both essentially elite games-writers odes to classic movies - crime movies in terms of the GTA games and obviously the western in regards to RDR. And it just so happens the elite games-writers in question wrote both. You can almost chart each game by the movie and tv shows that influenced them.

Not only that, they are both clearly open-world, that involve long multi-strand main missions as well as side missions that involve a wide variety of crazy characters that represent a pastiche of various characters from the classics. At their bare bones, I’d also argue that they play fairly similarly too apart from the obvious difference between automobile and equine.

One thing I would say as a kinda quick-and-easy differentiator… is that the GTA games are more fun and the RDR games more serious, which in turn has led to the RDR games being considered the ‘better’ game by serious gamers. My position would be that the narratives have definitely hit harder in RDR but I’ve actually enjoyed the GTA’s more. And that in no way discounts the quality of GTA’s narratives nor the enjoyment i had in RDR.

personally I have no problem with comparisons, or questions of connective-tissue between the GTA and RDR games. While there is clearly differences in terms of era and tone, they are both essentially elite games-writers odes to classic movies - crime movies in terms of the GTA games and obviously the western in regards to RDR. And it just so happens the elite games-writers in question wrote both. You can almost chart each game by the movie and tv shows that influenced the,.
Not only that, they are both clearly open-world, that involve long multi-strand main missions as well as side missions that involve a wide variety of crazy characters that represent a pastiche of various characters from the classics. At their bare bones, I’d also argue that they play fairly similarly too apart from the obvious difference between automobile and equine.

One thing I would say as a kinda quick-and-easy differentiator… is that the GTA games are more fun and the RDR games more serious, which in turn has led to the RDR games being considered the ‘better’ game by serious gamers. My position would be that the narratives have definitely hit harder in RDR but I’ve actually enjoyed the GTA’s more. And that in no way discounts the quality of GTA’s narratives nor the enjoyment i had in RDR.

I have very little to add here. This is an extremely excellent summary.

Why thank you @Yousef- , I could say the same for your wonderful précis on beetroot recently 😉. I love beetroot btw 😁

Hell yeah rock on man, Beetroot buddies for life.

Edit: I still wish I can find that one beetroot burger I ate 5 years ago…

@Yousef- You struck on something that has me thinking about my own prejudice regarding GTA — I wonder if I’d feel the same about the series if it took place in Kuwait City, or London, or Lagos or Helsinki (or at least a fictional depiction of one of those non-American cities). Modern day crime dramas that take place in your own backyard aren’t nearly as compelling as taking an adventure into a historical past or a culture across the world, or to a completely fictional fantasy land. If I want to get shot at in the red light district I know exactly where to go. I play games for escapism. There’s a reason I don’t ever turn on the news.

That aside, your and @colonelkilgore ‘s synopsis and explanation gives me something to think about, for which I am grateful. Especially GTA 4 seems more up my alley with the plight of the immigrant slant.

I will push back on one small thing, though — When a game is the second best selling game of all time, is one of the most financially successful entertainment products in the history of the world, one of the most critically acclaimed game series of all time with Metacritic scores 97-98… well, that game can’t really claim being a victim or feel picked on at all. I understand as a fan of the series you’d jump to defend it, but… I mean, it’s friggin’ GTA. It’s a large target and anything that big and successful is going to have to tolerate any and all criticisms levied at it, which just comes with the territory of cosmic success like that. It’s like when XBox says “oh, poor us. We don’t have the marketing budget that Sony has. Please feel sorry for us…” I mean, you’re Microsoft; you’re not going to get much sympathy from the public while you trip over your bags of money. In the same way, GTA is a dominant force in the industry and whatever fan criticisms are made just unfortunately come with the territory.

However, I get it — when everyone review bombed TLoU2 and were sullying the game (and still do) I feel a twinge of ‘passion’ to defend the game which I loved so much, and the need to explain why they are being so prejudiced and misinformed. But I understand. People are going to get hypercritical with anything that’s popular and successful.

It’s a large target and anything that big and successful is going to have to tolerate any and all criticisms levied at it, which just comes with the territory of cosmic success like that.

Strong disagree here. There’s no real excuse or license for poor criticism. You don’t shield something from ALL criticism, that’s just not going to happen. But poor or ignorant criticism can’t be excused or tolerated under all contexts. Trust me, I’m not gonna budge on this. But I have deciphered already that’s not what you’re particularly claiming. So it’s all good, don’t worry.

@Th3solution but I must address something, your perspective is ultimately very understandable and it’s one that exposes a particular bias in me that’s subconscious and I’m often ignorant towards; I was never in my life an outsider to gta. Loved it since day 1. All I needed to know was that it was a game where go whatever you want and I was instantly sold. do whatever you want, whenever you want, no game overs, no levels, just a giant world thats your oyster and with a story to boot.

And as I grew older? I only started to like it more and more. Realizing GTA III has the cast of goodfellas, realizing Vice City starred the late Ray liotta and the awesome Danny Trejo who do a tremendous job bringing their characters to life. And San Andreas featuring Samuel Jackson…

And that’s barely scratching the surface. I can go on for hours, nay days talking about the soundtrack.

Y’know, the fact R* is a British dev who does a tremendous job portraying America, you may be right. R* did sorta try to make these games into virtual tourism according to some interviews.
However it cannot be understated how much love there is poured into these games. Especially 4 and 5. RDR’s detail wasn’t created in a vacuum, it has GTA IV to thank for for creating the framework, such as this rare feature where if you fail a mission and have to repeat it, you won’t hear the same chit-chat dialogue. Ironically, this will make you want to fail. But thankfully all the dialogue is archived on whatever57010’s channel. Phenomenal channel. Link below.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8E0_qbRVNvSYjuq9PpPWz...

And hey, Saints Row? GTA? Ultimately it might not matter, so long as you’re not playing Mafia 3.

@Yousef- Wait… what? I thought the Mafia games were good. I’ve considered playing them before. I think I have all 3 via PS+

@Yousef- Oh and somehow I missed the top part of your comment.

I know what you’re saying about poor criticism and it’s true, but I’ve just come to the conclusion because of my station that no matter how unfairly someone of success is treated, the public isn’t going to ever give them benefit of the doubt. It doesn’t make it right, I’m just saying humans like to bring down the big success people and entities.
It’s just my perspective from life experience and I’ve come to accept it.
It’s why I’d never want to be a politician or a celebrity. People don’t allow them to make mistakes or be imperfect. It’s just the way it is, fair or not.

@Th3solution oh? Then you likely missed out on the i mafia 3 bugged launch that puts CP2077 to shame. That’s what my comment was alluding to, not the trilogy. A lot of these glitches still exist.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZokdmzvDGA&pp=ygUQbWFmaWEg...

A lot of these remain unpatched. Some audio bugs too. Shame cuz the story is the best in the series. But what are these bugs, pray tell?

Well, maybe you need some fresh air. How about we go out walking in the sky?

Maybe you’re feeling a little light-headed, you wanna hang? This guy loves hanging. Look at him go.

Maybe you need to look at yourself in the mirror. I’m sure you’ll see a wonderful face.

Perhaps you just wanna explore? Well the city looks great from the downside I’m told!

But I get it, maybe you want a superhero game. Well you can phase through walls, I gotchu covered.

Ok maybe you don’t wanna do any of that, maybe you wanna go out for a casual drive… on air… above water.

Upon further reflection and giving myself time to gather my thoughts before sending a word, I still take issue with this line of thinking and find it, if logical, somewhat misguided.

The reason I take issue with feigning knowledge in a topic one person is unfamiliar with has little to do with the nature of the topic itself, but rather the general attitude of elevating one’s perspective above others who’s more acquainted with the subject.

(Trust me, you will soon realize this isn’t a reply to you but rather a general observation and dissection/monologue. I’m wise to know better, I just want these thoughts out of my head)

In the case of GTA, the perspective you expressed comes off as skewed, emotionally charged and seemingly suffering from tunnel vision. Obviously not the intention, but as an example, I can’t say something like “I would love to go on a date with Godzilla” and try to shield the statement or remove myself from it. Every statement is subject to being dissected irregardless of the original intent behind it. This can better help communication and help us get an outsider’s perspective on what our words sound like to each, like how I would sometimes come off as confrontational, even if my intent was to express my passion.

But back onto gta itself, while it’s not unfair to think GTA V/Online has somewhat poisoned our image of the franchise, it is not unfair to point out that GTA was not always what it is today. To the point that R* wasn’t called R* when GTA came out, they were called DMA design. They also made lemmings before Sony purchased the IP.

in other words, R* and majority of GTA used to be far more humble and to top it off, far more sincere. GTA IV’s devs traveled to NY and actually had cops drive them around the city. They wanted to pay as much respect as possible. When these are the devs behind the games, I would indeed find it to be “barking at the wrong tree” when talking about hyper big hyper evil corporations, and many things that can be thrown at them can feel misguided or missing the point, or just adding a lot of filler.

Worst of all, it potentially risks drowning constructive feedback. Acknowledging the existence of unfair criticism is one thing, but having a quitting attitude or an attitude that encourages/vindicates them is ultimately harmful to the discourse.

It’s why I think that the whole “they’re big guys, no one loses by bullying them” is a fundamentally flawed and frankly, emotionally charged argument that risk derailing the discourse.

I don’t want this to devolve into “discourse about discourse” thread though as those discussions can either be great or risk going nowhere.

On the other hand, the GTA IV parody of Hillary Clinton is pretty funny.

I propose we call off the “discourse about discourse” thing and try begin dissecting the actual games otherwise we may be stuck at step 0 without further advancing the discussion.
Did you know that just like RDR1, you can find a Sasquatch in GTA V, except unlike RDR’s Sasquatch who’s real, it’s just a guy in a costume?
“Yeah, evolution is a b*tch”.

@Yousef- in fairness to @Th3solution theyre about as open-minded a person as you’ll meet on the internet. They might have a preconceived idea about things, as we all tend to do but sol is more than prepared to have their mind changed on a matter. Case in point, Dark Souls 2 - sol was intent on jumping straight from the original to the trilogy-capper due to all the negativity online around the sequel. It took a bit of gentle nudging by myself and a couple of others on here but here we are, they’re about halfway through Dark Souls 2 atm and enjoying it.

Ultimately I think preconceived perspectives are fine as long as the person is open to discussion and to listening to a more experienced perspective. Now not all of us are and that is where the dangers lay that you are concern with and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sol on the other hand will be making their way through GTAIV and GTAV before taking on GTAVI no doubt 😉

Have no fear. I’ve arrived to that conclusion long before I’ve made my post. I just tend to have this habit where I slowly begin to monologue and only address the ideas being presented and forget I was talking to another person. In no way do any of my points tackle the person himself behind the arguments.
I am… quite particular about how I debate topics, and can come off a little robotic or cold/distant. Sorry about that.

Interesting, I did not know they were a DS2 disbeliever. I’m glad they fulfilled their patriotic duty to the Miyazaki nation and respected that game.

And thank you for helping them see the light. Skipping Emerald Herald woulda invalidated their future takes.

You’re right in the last paragraph. I have nothing further to add.

@Yousef- umbasa🍻