Topic: Game Themes, Settings, and Backdrops - the When’s, the Where’s, and the Who’s

@Yousef- @colonelkilgore @Th3solution

Oooh, allow me to bulldoze in with the real solution to this discussion.

Americans generally don't understand parody and satire, and can find it hard to mock themselves and their "culture", thus Americans find it hard to like GTA beyond "guns'rrr fuuuuun" which may influence Sol's prejudice 😁

There is a large group of people that like GTA just because it is shooting stuff, and being a criminal with no consequences, that can't be denied, wherever they may be from. But it doesn't mean that people with brains cannot see that it is overall one of the best crafted series of games ever made either, and the Hausers in top form are undeniably unstoppable. The love the dev teams show for their cinematic inspirations over the years is almost second to none, and Kilgore and Yusef have covered most of this already.

GTA on the whole is a love letter to crime drama cinema and tv, a whole heap of satire, parody and poking fun at all walks of life, but mostly the American Dream side of things due to the setting and premise of most of the games, and then it's own unique tale and set of characters. It is also a destruction sandbox for low level brain activity gaming sessions too, which is why it appeals so broadly, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have strong merits at its core.

I would say that GTA4, for me, is the pinnacle, and GTAV lost me alomg the way with the long dragged out and poorly executed heist set ups that killed all gaming momentum. It nearly gave people what they craved, the bank heist mission from GTA4, but bigger, better and more often, but it didn't really nail it in execution, for me. It still had some really memorable missions though, and the way they interchange and weave the stories between characters is where it is at its strongest. I find it a hard game to replay because of the dragged out sections though, whereas I probably replayed GTA4 about 10 times, and I've been tempted lately to get it in Xbox as its been so long since I last played it 😅😅

I'd really recommend to anyone wanting to try out the series to start with 4 as it is the least like anyone's prejudgements of the series. It's a proper crime drama, and maybe an eastern bloc protagonist will help Sol settle in, as you get to see America through the eyes of an outsider, and that is peak Dan Hauser, right there.

RDR, RDR2, LA Noire and GTA4 could be bundled together as the 'American Crime Collection' and maybe that would tempt you in without the "GTA" label holding it down? 😉

@Yousef- yeah, I think in 5, for me, steal a bin lorry for the heist, that type of stuff, just got grating. Steal a submarine, ooh. But then it led to pretty boring missions anyway. A lot of the missions were really grand in scope, especially ones where you escape a region, they were great set pieces. But some seemed a bit more like busy work with no real pay off in the middle. And that, on top of the story literally being "no real payoff" it just grated on me in the middle sections a little bit. That's all, really.

I was slightly tempted the other day to start over, or pick up an old save just to relive some of the bigger scenarios. And like I said, the character interactions and that interwoven tale is some really top notch stuff.

@Yousef- As much as I do enjoy the discourse about discourse, you’re right to suggest moving on. I mean, although everything here on forums is fair game (we have threads on food, music, books, F1 racing, and mental health) so I don’t think the discussion is unwarranted, but I think we can conclude we see eye-to-eye on the subject, just from different perspectives. I admire your passion and adherence to fairness and objectivity.

And I appreciate @colonelkilgore ‘s observations because indeed, I value open-mindedness quite a lot and consider myself above average as far as well-roundedness (there’s a made up word for you). Not only in video games and entertainment, but throughout the swath of life’s experiences. I try to be quick to defer to someone who knows better than I or has first-hand experience. I find that the world is too full of people with strong opinions about things of which they actually have no knowledge or experience. I’d consider it a related form of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and so I usually advocate a person experience something before judging it. (Like Musous for example, which I really wanted to learn and experience before passing judgment)

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And so… as far as GTA goes, crime drama would fall into the lower quartile of my usual thematic interests. I know I’m about to open myself up to ridicule and disdain, but hey, I’ve come this far so what have I got to lose — I’ve never watched Goodfellas, Scarface, The French Connection, the Godfather series, or the Sopranos. I think maybe I saw part of one of the Godfathers, I’m not sure. Was there a decapitated horse in someone’s bed… Or was that one of my personal nightmares?

As @Ravix states, maybe there’s kind of subconscious aversion to looking in the proverbial mirror with GTA although I doubt it. I don’t mind poking fun at the American Dream and American culture (goes back to the discussion of being a big target, so like I say, it all comes with the territory). But like I mentioned, I’m not particularly interested in urban crime as a backdrop. But I am interested in the subject of redemption, morally grey thought-provoking narrative, class conflict’s effect on individuals, and the general exploration of the human condition. It sounds like GTA gets into these types of topics, which unfortunately has not been clear to me before. Some of the wrong perception is unfair, but in my defense some of it I would suggest is brought on by marketing also.

I do appreciate all the feedback about the series though. Besides GTA, what are the other good urban crime drama games? The Mafia trilogy, Saints Row, Sleeping Dogs, …. maybe Watch Dogs…? Yakuza? CyberPunk could be considered close? There’s not really very many.

@Th3solution that's the problem. There's barely any, as we discussed last week. There is a severe disconnect between the popularity of the genre, and games recreating it. I really enjoyed Mafia 3, as it really went the route of: the 60's were total sh** politically and more importantly with the racial divide, with its story (oh how times have changed... ... ... ... dot, dot, dot...

Oh, I ran out of dots) 🙄

((sigh))

But like @yousef- mentioned, the game was pretty much broken for a long time, and the game design itself was kind of bad too. I actually played only a couple of years ago, and it was fine bug wise for me, or at least I don't remember major issues, but the design was still a bit like the story was written and the devs didn't know how to just let people enjoy that, so had to section it off with bad gameplay based around controlling regions and really, really long fetch quests. It's a game that sticks with you regardless though, because of the stuff they did right, and I think maybe the best soundtrack in gaming, the one that has stuck with me most, anyway. As the 60's were so sh**, the music was insanely diverse and emotional, and just plain good, as people had something to say and did so. (I mean, I won't even mention how people seem to think that only since about 2015 have people decided to put their political and philosophical beliefs into media and art hahahahaha people are so f***ing dumb I could cry, but then a really intelligent catchphrase-repeater would appear and declare me a woke snowflake whilst raging about how sensitive they are to everyone elses personal thoughts! Oh, how did we let it get this way 🙃)

By now you've probably guessed I've veered off on one 😁

And you know I'm only teasing about the American stuff, I just like to get a jab in here and there for no real reason haha. Although, overall I'd say there is some correlation. I imagine the ratio of Americans that like GTA just because it's "fun with guns" is way more than Europeans that appreciate the other elements. But again, overall there's more people that are just playing it for the dumb fun than anything else wherever they are, and we appreciators are really the outsiders of the GTA player base. But because of that, we are the ones to be trusted on its merits as art 😁

Oh, back to the other crime drama games. They all fundamentally have something wrong with them. Saints Row (the first ones) are kind of good, but also bad. And then they got worse. But kind of enjoyable as their own thing, and had some really memorable moments, mostly sing-alongs. They were goofy, but they were supposed to be, so it kind of worked. Totally bats*** crazy, but unapologetically so. Until the latest one, that wasn't necessarily bad because of its characters or the new direction, it was just bad because it was a God awful game, made terribly by devs that must have just been hamstrung by the publisher, or just incapable, which I don't want to say. There is no explanation for how bad it was as a game. You could load in and within a minute there'd be a car crash where cars and trucks would just flip into the air and get stuck there, with no involvement from the player. It was just badly coded. They didn't even bother to get the sound levels for anything to work properly, which is what annoyed me the most, as it actually passed QC or testing of some description. It was like some kids had a go at game development in detention it was that badly made.

What I might do is turn this into what my hopes for GTA 6 are, and my expectations which fall short of those hopes 😪 but not right now. Mostly it will iist be listing a bunch of films they should have used for inspiration, and whether I trust that the new batch of writers will understand what is fundamentally good about past GTA's, rather than just what they think people might like because they don't really get what makes the series tick underneath all the mindless violence and silly sh** that 90% of the people think they like, but will not enjoy as much if they don't get the other stuff right too. I.e make a soulless GTA copy now Dan Hauser has had enough of Take 2

@Ravix Oh, that’s right — you did want more quality urban crime dramas, like Training Day. At the time, I didn’t know GTA for this classification. 😅

Of the genre, I’ve played the opening hours of Cyberpunk, Saints Row 4, Saints Row reboot, GTA 3, and Yakuza 0. I finished none of them. I made it furthest into Y0 and really was enjoying it, but the minigames and side activities were so overwhelming and I got into the real estate mini game and then sort of lost interest. It’s too bad because I was liking the story. It has Saints Row levels of silliness, although felt a little less egregious, at least there wasn’t sex toy themed weapons but I do remember a side quest about some school girl’s underwear.

If I tried Mafia, then I would plan to start with the first game, which I hear is the strongest.

😔 there are… no words…

@colonelkilgore there are indeed no words. Also Donnie Brasco is another excellent film. Gives extremely strong similar vibes to gta 4.

@colonelkilgore Just when you thought your opinion of me couldn’t sink any further… 😅

I tried to watch The Irishman not too long ago. I’m ashamed to report I fell asleep somewhere around the one hour mark and never bothered to go back to it.

Occasionally there are times that I feel ‘in the mood’ for some mafia gangster entertainment, but it’s not my default.

@LN78 Honestly, that dissertation sounds like it would be interesting. In contrast to the gaming space, there are many, many well-regarded movies about the subject.

@Th3solution I fell asleep in The Irishman too in all honesty bud 😅

@colonelkilgore 🤣 Whew! I feel vindicated!

@Th3solution I appreciate your expansion. Unfortunately, I am going to somewhat disappoint you by saying I got very little to add and as such this will be a much lighter reply.

While I lack regional understanding of a country as big as the states, I do feel obligated that I know what “west coast rapper” means at least, if only for the association of Los Angelos and subsequently, GTA San Andreas. I was getting really into rap, especially Ice Cube and I was able to find out they’re “west coast” and that was interesting to know. That there’s also Weet Coast vs East Coast rap war going. And I do mean war, as in Drive-bys (hopefully you know that word) kept happening and it’s how Notorious B.I.G lost his life at age 24. Based on his work, he was a real hero to me and a role model. This is really tragic and nothing can be said about it that wasn’t already said.

I think you may have gotten confused a bit with my fish example, as I already pointed out the joke that you did. Re-read that paragraph, I was praising Niko’s clever mockery of his friend. So your interpretations, while interesting, contradicts the clear and concise explanation I’ve laid out in that one short paragraph.

Shrug indeed. It’s interesting how R*, which is already a British dev, went quite hard on this. I suppose they only wanted you to have the basic understanding of these references because in a paragraph I was going to write but failed to remember to, GTA V turned out to be nowhere near as reliant on those slang to enjoy the story as I initially presumed, they did distract me. This I cannot deny. When someone distracts me with a word I don’t get, I’m less likely to understand what they’re getting across. It’s like if a politician tried promoting pepsiman as part of his campaign. I would not be against it, but I would fixate more on that than anything else he said.

As a final note, it’s actually possibly healthy to point out that my specific examples were a personal subjective dissection, and not meant to be taken as an objective dissection of the use of lingo and slang. Because I ultimately think that that’s a good thing, which is partially what I alluded to when I was saying this isn’t a rant, despite being framed at one. It’s quite interesting how I could come off more negative than I want. Comes with the territory of choosing to be analytical, rather than casual. You cannot avoid sounding cold and robotic. But at least I won’t look weird when I complete my plan of world domination.

Edit: hmmm, I guess this is my version of a “light reply”.

@Yousef- Oh, you didn’t come across negative. No worries.

And I’m sorry I misread your comment, which was more of a recognition of the “smelling fishy” figure of speech and a clever use of it in the game’s dialogue, rather than a reference to it being confusing to you. My bad.

I’ll also apologize for being pedantic in general. I think you and others outside of the States already have an understanding of most of what I wrote about, including the regional prejudices that exist here which are oft referenced in media and entertainment.

It does sound like Rockstar has done a really good job with re-creating the US settings and backdrop. Honestly in my travels I’ve found that most of us are more similar than we are different, even when we have a different flag waving above our heads.
… I’ll never understand beetroot, however. And don’t even get me started with marmite. I think even our British friends are torn about that one.
To plagiarize a famous comedian, “They could discover that marmite cured cancer and I’d say, ‘Give me the chemo!’” 😄

@Th3solution beetroot isn’t this gigantic enigma you’re thinking. It’s just likely prepared badly in countries that don’t eat it as part of the culture. Here we have it with a lot things. Juices, hummus, even burgers and it’s quite tasty. If anything, I’m the one confused by someone finding it gross. Must’ve led a really sheltered life. Well, no time like the present.

No need to be quite apologetic, I never had the impression you were being pedantic. And no need to apologize for the other thing either, matter of fact I’m grateful you fixated on that. As I always fully expect when people read my large posts that one or two things get lost in translation, and feel really happy when asked to elaborate as it’s another opportunity to better convey myself and learn how my words sounded from when external point of view.

I’m quite glad I don’t come off as harsh as I fear. Sometimes it’s a pill you have to swallow if you’re trying to dissect ideas, not people. But I’m glad we see eye to eye.

@Yousef- I read your reply, but I'm not really in a very typey mood, so I don't think I'll try saying much else 🙃 it was an interesting read, though.

I believe the discussion has turned to beetroot now anyway, of which I will say, I agree. A boiled or basically cooked beetroot is foul, but pickled, roasted or made in to other things it is a very good ingredient 😁

I also love Houmous, despite not knowing why it's spelled about 14 different ways in the UK 😅

As this is the game settings etc thread I'll pose a question, to you and the other GTA appreciators: what are your hopes and expectations for GTA 6 overall? I will talk about mine at some point here abouts soon enough, I imagine.

I'll even leave a teaser image that basically sums up my answer for my GTA 6 hopes, although there's a bunch of different inspirations I have in mind, and, in isolation, this is maybe an awkward still image to have used haha

10 forum points if people know the film though

@Ravix I’ll detail my thoughts on gta 6 since I’ve actually been waiting my chance to say my piece but as a super quick heads up I wanna address the hummus thing, there’s two explanations. A linguistic one, which I can happily provide, and a cultural one, which I cannot provide because I don’t know British culture (but I proudly own the Wallace and Gromit telltale game on steam so I’m a reliable source wink wink)

Arabic does not have a vowel system that functions similarly to Latin based languages or virtually all European languages you can think of.

As an example, if the English language wanted to imitate Arabic, hummus would be written with three letters, HMS حمص. Sounds complicated? Well, there’s usually markers in Arabic to indicate how a word is read, like this: حُمُصْ. But they’re not needed if you’re a native, they’re for outsiders or to learn new words.

English, and even Germanic/Romance languages, has nothing that imitates this. As a result, something will be bound to get lost in translation. To add further complication, the A-O-U-E-I five root vowel system does not exist either, instead it’s a three root vowel system, which, as you can imagine, leads to 5,000,000 million disagreements on how Evan the simplest Arabic words are meant to be spelled in English. Including names. Ever met a bloke named Ahmed? You should meet his friend, Ahmad. Or maybe you’d like to meet his other friend, Ahmid, or his cousin Ahmud.

Oh, sorry, they’re all the same jolly bloke. If you’re free, do drop to my cousins, Yousef, Yousif, Youssef, Youssif, Yousuf, Yoosuf and Yusef. All jolly fellas.

@Ravix oh also if I’m not wrong, that’s true romance.

@Yousef- indeed it is, True Romance. One of many, many films I hope will have inspired this latest bunch of R* writers, mainly due to the relationship angle that seems to be the base of this game's story, character development, etc. But I do worry that without Dan Hauser's lead, they will be veering more towards something like the fast and the furious, or FAST as it cleverly rebranded itself to be even more digestible to the dot dot dots, of this world... 😪😅

Interesting about the vowels, it's not something I'd ever considered, despite it being a common occurrence in names and the like.

I will await your hopes for GTA 6, anyway. Now that the Houmous is out of the way 😁

Sidenote: I was just going to see if I had any current saves on the PS5 version of GTA5 as its been installed on my extra SSD for ages. I... do not. I think I mostly played the game on PS3 tbh, and maybe once more on PS4, and just did the intro mission on PS5 once.

Franklin currently has $216 dollars, so maybe I'll feel inclined to help him out for a bit 🥲