Oh boy, this whole Days Gone thing just won't stop churning, will it? Speaking in David Jaffe's latest interview video, Days Gone director John Garvin has strong feelings on the sequel situation — as you'd expect. Garvin left developer Sony Bend around two years ago, so he's free to speak his mind on Jaffe's show.
And it hasn't taken long for Garvin's impassioned comments to do the rounds online. "I do have an opinion on something that your audience may find of interest, and it might piss some of them off," Garvin admits, as transcribed by VGC. "If you love a game, buy it at f***ing full price. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen gamers say ‘yeah, I got that on sale, I got it through PS Plus, whatever.’"
Garvin's argument is that by buying a game at full price, you're showing direct support for the developer — you're doing your part to maximise profit. And in the case of Days Gone, Garvin's suggesting that if more people grabbed the game at launch, Sony may have been more open to a potential sequel.
Jaffe asks how buyers would know if they love a game before they've even played it. Garvin replies: "I’m just saying, you don’t, but don’t complain if a game doesn’t get a sequel if it wasn’t supported at launch."
Garvin continues: "I think the uptick in engagement with the game is not as important as, did you buy the game at full price? Because if you did, then that’s supporting the developers directly."
Of course, it's not always that simple. The obvious truth here is that not everyone can afford to buy games on release. For many, gaming is an expensive luxury — and suggesting that these people are, in part, at fault for Days Gone's lack of a sequel is a slippery slope. We would hope that Garvin knows this, and he's just trying to make a point, but it doesn't come across particularly well.
What do you make of these quotes? Watch out for freakers in the comments section below.
[source youtube.com, via videogameschronicle.com]
never before have I heard something so controversial yet so true!
Edit: Upon reading the comments, I remembered that the game was a buggy mess at launch.....So I'm sorry, don't buy games at launch but buy them when they are ready, Cheers!
Like the comment below me, let's get the man to 100 upvotes!
Update : We did it!!!!!!!
@everynowandben congrats lol, @get2sammyb can you confirm the WR?
Note to self: Make sure to wait for a sale before buying content John Garvin was involved with.
If you want people to buy a game at full price at launch, release a game that works, and is fun to play.
I did buy it full price and it was a buggy mess.
Perhaps if companies didnt release half baked uncompleted games riddled with bugs and glitches on day one, to quote his words. we would swear word buy it at full price" Something to think about.
Umm wasn't the game a buggy ***** mess at launch? Maybe a big reason people held off buying at launch... though the game is pretty good now though after playing on ps5
Didn't Days Gone outsell God of War during its launch window? Sure there was a larger install base a year later but this narrative that it didn't sell well at launch is strange to me.
Making games is hard work He looks very tired
There is some truth in what he said, but at the same time, he's so disconnected from the average consumer view. Doesn't he realize that big AAA companies set unrealistic sales "expectations" and when games don't reach those numbers, they automatically "fail".
It's Cliffy B. all over again -.-
That's fair enough. I agree with him. If you aren't a day one buyer then don't complain. Fair enough if you dont buy day one though. Everyone spend their hard earned money the way they want to.
The saddest quote is when he says metacritics is essential. It's credibly sad to give so much power to some random BS scores. Metacritics needs to die.
First off this game needed someone to edit it. The main campaign was 10 hours too long. Second, if you want people to pay full price for your game you better make sure its not a buggy mess.
🤔Can i get syphon filter remake or a collection..gabe logan the icon.word up son
Well there's going to be less people paying full-price now games cost £70/$70.
This is my preferred pastime and I spend a lot of money on games, but even I can't justify these kind of prices I don't think.
I bought it full price at launch, in fact the collectors edition, worth every penny. Sad about the fact it's not getting a sequel
@Jayslow no it wasn’t even close. God of war sold over 5 million first month days gone didn’t even sell 500k first month.
Yeah I definitely get where he's coming from, but if you wanna take it out on someone, vent to the management that decided a few million copies for a new IP isn't enough, instead of accusing people of being cheapskates;
since, y'know, those who denied the sequel are also the same who apply prices, decide how much is enough, and are probably leagues richer than the average Joe's you're asking to be good boys and swallow the pill.
How do you know if you love it until you play it... How about do better marketing so your game doesnt look generic and cheesey you nerd.
Buying a launch title is typically the most money for the worst version of the game. From others peoples comments, seem like this applied to days gone.
He's spot on. I am a cheapskate. £20 games ftw.
Nope, that's a very bad take, even if I understand where he's coming from.
The moment games will generally come out complete, polished and without any risk of post-launch microtransactions, I'll revise my way of buying games exclusively during sales.
I understand what he says, but it's not the customers' fault, so his anger is completely misdirected.
Anyone would think the gaming industry was scraping by on pittance. Oh wait. plays worlds smallest violin
Days Gone sold millions. Maybe the problem is that the people making it are paid too much... Or they foolishly believe every game will sell like GTAV.
Can’t blame people for not buying games at launch when a growing number of them are virtually unplayable months after release.
Clearly people in the industry haven’t learned from Microsoft’s ‘deal with it’ disaster. It rarely ends well to sound off like this.
Sorry, I learned my lesson: A lot of games are buggy at start. If you wait for 6 month they are patched and much cheaper. And the new price for PS5 games like 80 Euros is a no go for me. I will even buy less games in the first week after release.
Fair enough and I agree. £70 is too expensive and I won't buy as many games day one for that price. However the context was Days Gone and, fair enough, if you didn't buy it at full price and supported it then its a bit cringe to complain about no sequel.
Being understood it's completely fine to get games as cheap as you can.
We can cut him a little slack since he still seems very much in this heated moment. I get the logic - I bought Persona 4 and Strikers on PC at launch because I wanted to help prove that these ports were worthwhile for Atlus.
But at the same time, I just don't think Days Gone was the kind of game to inspire that kind of loyalty at launch. The vibe I got from the community at the time was a lot of "another zombie game, and another open world game with jaded beardy man protagonist...no thanks".
If there's a message for anyone it's that you shouldn't wait to buy a game at $20 AND THEN complain when the sequel gets canned. We just kind of have to accept that a game didn't inspire a bunch of people to pay $60, then there probably won't be a series. That's ok - there is no shortage of cheaper and more interesting games out there.
I get what he's saying, but no way can I afford, not would I want to pay, full price for a game on day one without knowing if I like it. I rely on sites such as PushSquare for reviews, etc, to see if it's something if like.
What happened to the days of getting a demo of the game to try out? PS+ could give out a few demos a month before release. That seemed to work before. I'd play a demo and know right away if I liked it, and be more receptive to paying full price for a game then. But you don't see demos very often nowadays.
"Despite mixed reviews, Days Gone was the best selling physical game in the United Kingdom in the week of release. It went on to be the best-selling software release in all the format sales charts for three consecutive weeks. Days Gone would also debut at the number one position in the retail charts in Switzerland, where it remain there for three consecutive weeks.
In Japan, Days Gone outsold two other PlayStation 4 exclusive games at launch, God of War and Horizon Zero Dawn. It went on to surpass the lifetime sales of God of War and another exclusive PlayStation 4 game, The Last Guardian. In its first three days after launch, it sold approximately 114,319 physical units.
In North America, Days Gone was the second best selling video game software for the month of April, behind Mortal Kombat 11. This marks Days Gone as the 7th highest debut in sales for a Sony-published title, and the best selling game developed by Bend Studio.
Days Gone proceeded to become the second best-selling video game software in North America for April 2019. By June 2019, it was the eighth best-selling video game of the year. It was the 19th best-selling game of 2019 in the US.
According to game director Jeff Ross, Days Gone sold more copies than all of Bend Studio's previous games combined."
Excuse me, could you repeat please, Mr. Garvin?
Still sure you wanna throw your customers/fans under the bus and not the executives?
P.S.: From Wikipedia, I edited out the links to sources (obviously) but you can easily find them on the article.
Some film and game franchises have had slow starts and then gone on to great success after building a big audience over time. How well a new IP sold at launch shouldn't be the main barometer for whether it gets a sequel, how well it has done over time and how big a community it has generated should be. His complaint is rather silly. I get it for sequels - if people don't buy #2 at full price then they shouldn't complain about a lack of a #3 - but you can't criticise people for taking time to discover a new IP. And slagging off lots of people who love your game isn't the best way to convince them to support your next effort.
That’s a dreadful take. How do we know we love the game without having played and bought it?
"If you love a game, buy it at f***ing full price"
How do I know I will love it before paying for it? I'm a patient guy and I can't afford to be burned. I know I would have felt like that had I payed full price for Days Gone.
Maybe if you can't handle your game going on sale it's your business model that's f'd and not the conscientious consumer who's been burned one too many times.
I'm just saying
@fR_eeBritney "Maybe the problem is that the people making it are paid too much... "
I wish that was the problem!
Thing is, the people actually putting in the long hard hours are underpaid and treated like cattle, while management cuts losses by laying off devs and check out their bonuses.
Obviously this is an exaggeration and not every workplace is like that (I hope), but if people like Bobby Kotick are legally allowed to lay off 190+ employees (which means 190+ more struggling families) while at the same time awarding himself a $200 million bonus on top of his $40 million salary, well, I have no hope for this world in general.
@BionicDodo yes, that's very true. I played Uncharted, and loved it. Since then, I've bought the sequels at launch because I know I'll love them, and to support the developers so more will come.
I paid £25 for it on disc (after all the bugs were squished), played to platinum and then sold on for around £20
Does that make me a bad person?
Everything has a knock on effect, if it released in a more stable, bug free state - it would of got better received in reviews and more gamers would of been inclined to pay in full for it. I really enjoyed this game....just not when it first came out
Well, but it is the first game in that installment, how should I know if I'll like it or not? If it is a game like Zelda which has already many entries and I love every one off them then yeah, I'm willing to pay full price for it cause the chance is very high that I also like the new game. But I rarely buy a game where I have no previous experiance with
I was looking forwards to days gone but after reading reviews and the piss poor performance on the base ps4 i decided to give it a miss...been given the game free twice now lol and i still dont think much of it..there are only a few games in recent memory that i thought "full price" was deserving..got,sekiro,monster hunter world and even those 3 had a few little niggles..must try harder you pratt..
I'm looking forward to playing it now it's come to ps plus but I'm sad there won't be a sequel that I could get on ps plus in a couple of years.
It really ****** me off when someone resorts to swearing to get a point across. Is there no better way to put an argument forward than this?
Nintendo is the only company I will buy games from at full price anymore. PS games just go on sale so quickly, and if I'm patient enough I can usually get them super cheap.
I get his frustration, but blaming fans (who are vocalizing support for the game and a sequel) for not spending enough money on said game is not the right path here. Not a good look, bro.
@Splat That right there was the exact reason I didn't buy it at full price at launch and now own it through PS Plus.
If I get a game on PS Plus/Now or dirt cheap and I've really enjoyed it , I will sometimes buy some dlc to show my support to the developer.
I paid full price for it and LOVED IT but I'm not a fan of the direction they wanted to take for the sequel so it really doesn't bother me if we don't get one. Sucks for them though
I won't buy it at all now. Games of this nature bore me to death personally so he can ***** right off. I'll buy a game at whatever Price it's available for and if he doesn't like that well tough *****.
Don’t release it in the state you did then. It ran as well as I do when I’m drunk when you launched it. I absolutely loved it when you finally got round to completing it though. Shame
I bought The collector's edition an the special edition on lunch so i did my part. Will do the same in future
Yeah how will I love the game if I never played it yet lol.
C'mon man. I waited on buying Days Gone cause I remember it being buggy as all hell on launch.
I have bought special edition D1, so i did my part.
@munstre Not interested. I buy most of my games at launch at Full Price already so tbh I find his remark here insulting.
developers have to accept the truth of buggy games ruin reputations and there for alot of people wait till they are fully patched before they play them
There were some bad points about the game:
Camera and Controls.
Everytime you move the camera so that you can find what it is that is stalking you, the camera always moves into central position.
Well, according to Lougle, days gone sold 114k+ copies, in the first three days. Seems pretty good. But, if there was a sever drop off after this, it must've been word of mouth on how buggy or glitchy it was. So to counter his point of "buying games at launch", make a game worth buying, at launch.
Wow, a lot to unpack here.
1) Developers aren't obligated to anyone's money, and nobody should feel obligated to pay full price for games. It's your money, so spend it how you're comfortable. While I'll happily "show support" for series and/or developers I love with day one purchases, I don't feel the 'need' to. It's a purely economic arrangement.
2) How do I know if I'll like a game that's a new IP before I get it? Particularly from a developer with games like Bubsy 3D on their resume, lol.
3) Don't put it on sale and/or PS+ if you don't want people experiencing it on there.
4) To echo @Arckadius , maintain price integrity for your products if you don't want me to wait. Nintendo's games rarely go on sale and maintain their value, so I usually just buy the ones I'm interested in ASAP. If you juice day one buyers like suckers and then tank the price of the game after half a year, then I'm going to wait for that price depreciation to max out so that I don't get screwed over.
5) Statements like these are going to backfire and make even less people want to buy your next game. I'm not your pay pig. Don't treat me like I am.
I think people are missing his point. His problem is clearly having all these people sing the games praises years after it released and acting stunned that there isn't a sequel when they're the same ones who didn't support it originally. Like it's fine to wait for cheaper prices and patches, but then you can't complain about decisions regarding dlc or sequels. It's a trade off. I get the frustration of everything happening now being pointless and feeling too little too late.
Sony does devalue their games very quickly, which doesn't help. I got LOU2 a few months later for 50% off. These days with s-t wages, rising costs of living, $10 added to new game prices, and a personal backlog already a mile long, I'm not buying a whole lot at full price anymore.
ps4 Xbox one generation taught one one thing dont buy games at launch because they are invariably broken and buggy.
Maybe dont release a game full of bugs, when you want customers to pay full price. With the amount of buggy games nowadays i rarely buy a game day 1 because those simply arent worth their full price.
@QueenOfHearts38 whoops you're right. I remember seeing articles about that. Just did a quick Google and it was in Japan it outsold God of War.
@get2sammyb I agree! The £70 price has destroyed any chance of me making an impulse buy. Poor timing from the lad.
Note to self buy all future games by this Director used.
@munstre “It was more down to his personality and style clashing with how the higher ups wanted to build the studio.”
Based on his little outburst and language I can certainly see that being the case. Nobody wants a loud mouth know it all throwing their weight about like they own the place. Seems to be a common trait in this industry.
I do buy a lot of games at full price and the "don't expect a sequel if you didn't buy the first one" part makes sense - but to be fair: How are people supposed to know if they love the game if they don't buy it in the first place? It's up to the studio and marketing teams to convince players that they will love it. Don't blame gamers for not buying the game.
@mariomaster96 I was going to say the almost exact same, with Zelda in mind as example of a proven series that i DO buy blind on day-one... How do we know if we will like the first enstallment of a new franchise that looks and sounds pretty generic on paper?? Credibility has to be EARNED. I downed it from PS Plus and will give it a try.. A title i already chose to skip long ago. BE GLAD WE CAN CHOOSE TO GIVE IT A SECOND CHANCE, Mr GARVIN.. Most of us can afford only one, or maybe two new games a month. .Maybe we will like it even more than we expected and pick a possible sequel up for full price!!? This Ain't no Zelda, Metroid, Uncharted or Metal Gear Solid (yet) duh!
I do hope it's good, and am happily surprised i will be able to check it out finally. It didn't survive the selection from to-buy list to actual purchase back then. Open world, zombies, post apocalyptic setting, survival, rpg elements... bla bla..C'mon, every gaming enthousiast knows why it didn't make it, lol😁😜
Release a game that isn't broke then,simple
You can be pissed about what he says but its true.
If you want people to buy games at full price release ***** demos ahead of release!
@munstre He resorted to swearing and it comes across as a personal attack to those that do. Sometimes depending on the game I'll wait for a Sale and therefore I didn't take kindly to his remark here. I'm playing Days Gone on Plus now and to me personally it's not even that good.
I bought days gone at $40, not full price but at least not at $20 like jedi fo. I really think sony should offers refund like steam so people can trust its store to buy games at full price.
I usually bought playstation exclusive at day one to support them, but with playstation porting their exclusive to pc now I only buy it if I think it's worth it $60 (now $70).
@Jayslow I remember the game is on npd no.1 chart a couple of weeks after launch.
@get2sammyb How many people will buy a €60 game and the seasonpass /gold edition/and the seasonal roster update of any sportsgame with MT and monetization.
Thats the part you seem to forget about the PS firstparty exclusive games Sammy.
To be fair Pushsquare did quite the job of making Returnal look like a game thats not worth the full price on multiple occasions.
One more thing people complain about the sequals but also complain about paying full price for a new IP make up your mind please. And its not like the yearly updated IP's and roster updates are worth €60 with the extra monetization and MT liveservice crap shoved in there.
Ubisoft/EA is knows that the people complain and still buy their broken games day one anyway. Its not quality that sells thats for sure.
Didn’t sell well enough at full price to justify a sequel... that people played it later at $20 or PS+ does not matter
Stop asking for one... stop blaming Sony. Not that complicated of a statement.
Indeed. I love when someone like him speaks their mind. All of us, here have been saying the same thing. You support what you like, the franchise you like. It's basic knowledge among gamers but out of context articles bashing what he said will push people to overreact.
Haha, he's kind of got a point BUT Days Gone had a lot of issues at launch which may have put people off from buying it. I eventually did but much later on in 2019 and a lot of bugs were removed by the time I eventually played it.
It's an interesting issue though. Some gamers are going to grow up expecting never to have to buy a game at full price ever again. Those that do will be labelled as 'boomers' or corporate shills.
It reminds me of the piracy debate. If everybody did it then nothing new would ever be made as nothing would make an actual profit. People need to continue to buy things in order for new things to be made. It's that simple.
I never bought it at all, not interested, don’t care about it, and this only reaffirms that. There is a less bitter, dickish way of suggesting that gamers support the games that they like and want more of. Also, sales tend to lure people who otherwise wouldn’t buy at full price, obviously.
Muzzle your dog, Sony.
@munstre it’s hard not to form an opinion of a person when you see a comment like that - someone in his position really should know better - but he could just have been having a bad day.
Still, he must have known his comment would cause this kind of reaction (how could he not?) so I don’t have much sympathy for him either.
But I’m not going to hide in the bushes outside his house and hurl eggs at him as he leaves, or anything like that 👀🤣
Ha, I did when it was new. Watched quite a few gameplay videos before buying, which often tell me more than reviews.
this is why I buy the games I’m interest in full price to support the developers. people get sad when game studios shut down that made good games but the same people champion not buying games full price.
Sorry, but I can't buy a game at full price in the country where I live. Games are very expensive, consoles are expensive, isn't like America where everything is cheap.
@fR_eeBritney he got the knee jerk reaction that he wanted..free publicity..annoy everybody..everybody starts talking about how bad it is for him to swear...job done..
If you want to make a sequel make a game that people want to play at launch, not months later on sale or free on PS plus.
@JJ2 I really thought they had a personal vendetta with Returnal man man they did have any hesitation putting the game down.
@figboot Not a Sony employee dude.
Sorry, buying games at full price is like going to the movie theatre on opening day paying full price. It is just not a sustainable habit no matter how much you want to support the corporation who is selling it. If I can wait 6 months, I can play games at the same rate but half the price, it is just obvious.... And I do the same with 90% of movies waiting for blu-ray or streaming.
Of course with both media I occasionally fall for the hype train and pay full price, but it is rare and I can’t afford to do it often despite a good salary.
To expect the average wage-earner to pay full price ever is just insane.
@God_of_Nowt Who says the people that think this guy is a clown and those asking for petitions are the same people? You do realise that different people can express different opinions?
The Sad Truth I guess. I know a lot of people who will buy a single player game later at a discount, borrow it or play it through Plus. However those people Buy FIFA, COD, NBA, NFS day one.
Since money doesn't grow on trees everyone has to decide what to buy, thats why I give my money to AA Developers, I Bought Yakuza 7 last year, havent played it. Also imediately bought A Hat in Time DLC (Indie Love). A friend of mine tried to convince me to pick up Black Ops Cold war around Launch, but Activision already makes enough money, even without my purchase. A lesser man would feel left out, or really really likes COD
@Boon520 HZD is definitely overrated. I’m glad I played it because of the story but I found the open world very boring. Had no interest in exploring it.
1.I understand the frustration of people involved with a game when it does not do well or does not get a sequel. But:
2. No one should lecture anyone else about how to spend their money. And:
3.The best way to ensure a sequel is to create an amazing game. I played and finished DG. I liked DG. It is by no means a stand out game.
I finished Ghost of Tsushima, but I didn’t pay full price for it. Somehow that game is getting a well deserved sequel. Wonder why?
@get2sammyb yes Sammy i would buy ten games day one at €60 before i ever buy one game at €70 and will not do it out of principal and i hope others follow suit wont be long before Sony reverse the price hike
It’s true sequels won’t get green lit if nobody buys at launch and publishers only get meagre sale money.
I personally never get games at full price, but for this reason I’d not complain if games I liked didn’t earn enough for a sequel.
It would help if the market wasn’t so saturated and games took more risks to be different, also if they weren’t half finished at launch of course.
He somewhat has a point but at the same time developers should make it so people will want to buy it at launch and not release a broken, buggy game like Cyoerpunk for example.
I have no problem buying a game full price at launch if it's complete and not broken.
I recent bought MLB The Show on Xbox Series X. Yes it's going to be on Gamepass but I wanted to support the Xbox version by giving them my hard earned cash and I know it will be a top notch game as I love The Show series.
Totally agree with you about scores. The saddest part is gamers are also being part of the problem giving too much power to random scores. Its a catch 22 situation that only favours the media.
I would agree with his comments for well established game franchises. Not unknow games that really need to bring the hype and the reviews. Days gone was lacking in the latter unfortunately.
I personally don't think he understands this topic though, the game was not critically well recieved which hiders sales, except by the end of the year Day Gone was on many site/journalists top 10s.
This lead to renewed interest along with discounted sales! Now many people remember a good game, and wonder why they wouldn't make a sequel.
@Salt_AU Here's a quote from the PushSquare review: "Bugs can be problematic as well – at least in the review build we played. One side-quest completely glitched out on us, rendering it unsolvable; clipping, sound issues, and other minor technical hiccups also detracted from our experience."
@munstre he was the Game Director during the games development, not the office tea boy.
Vulgarity is no substitute for wit 😉
Its OK to release a game broken at launch, but if you buy it at a discount you are preventing further projects? I would love to blame the customer for my failed product in my job. Once again, proof that the gaming industry has some of the worst executives in any industry. Thank you Devs for working your tail off to make it great! Unfortunately, when you sell a defective product, it ends up on clearance - free market and all.
I did the same in regards to MLB The Show. I thought about cancelling my pre-order but i wanted to support the Xbox version. By the way see you on the diamond if we ever cross paths
This should also be a great example to publishers, if you keep releasing broken games more an more consumers will learn to wait for the sales.
Those points will most likely be 8 different articles on this site over the coming days.
So we can only get Sony exclusive sequels if we buy full price and launch even if buggy.
Over at Xbox they include them in GPU.
Half the amount of them though.
As I’ve always said both companies don’t get it right.
Ps NOw needs a revamp and use that extra money to fund stuff like this.
@get2sammyb can I introduce you to boomerangrentals? Ps5 games included!
@Stocksy What Xbox firstparty titles are not using monetization. From shaders, boosters, in game adds that you can buy as skins.
It was odd how they never had any dlc or side content. Days Gone seemed quite old fashioned in that regard.
The gaming industry has had to adapt over the years. And as much as I don’t agree with micro-transactions or charging for cosmetics in full-priced games, maybe that could have brought in more money? Or kept the game ‘alive’ for longer with re-releases and such?
I would have bought story DLC in a heartbeat but they didn’t make any 🤷♂️
I enjoyed the first game and i even bought it with the launch month which is a rarity for me lol
I don't think it deserves a sequel as it was mainly the zombie horde that made it unique and the novelty will wear off in a sequel.
A new fresh IP is the best option for Bend Studios.
Whether we like it or not a game's success is based on first month sales and metacritic scores. This wait for sale mentality (which your entitled too) only harms certain game's long term prospects because selling them cheaper means less of a profit.
It would not surprise if this is what happens with Returnal.
Game launches to decent but not amazing scores.
Launches in top ten charts but quickly drops out.
Several months later it gets good post release support.
Commenters on here say "bought it in a sale and I've been loving it".
Sony then decide not to work with Housemarque anymore due to Returnal's poor sales.
People on here will complain about Sony's decision.
This guy can ***** off, buy games when you want, especially now that first party titles have gone up in price thanks to Sony’s greed.
Happily got Ghost of Tsutshima at full price as it looked absolutely amazing. Did not buy Days Gone day one because I heard about bugs, a very mixed reception and then got it on sale.
Hey Girvan, work for a sequel goes both ways. Appeal to us enough that we want it at full price.
@Mince I lost faith in boomerang when they deducted 20,000 loyalty points from my account without warning, claiming their system had glitched ‘over the years’ and I had been awarded more points than I was due. But when I asked for evidence or a statement I could reconcile, they refused to provide it...
The actual service is ok though. Just don’t rely on the loyalty scheme.
I pre ordered so I did pay full price & I did love it however there were quite a few bugs at launch
@Fenbops They can go the normal triple A route. Break up the game into several editions cut out story that you can get but only after you get the gold or whatever edition it is and then make it look like a free to play game if you look at the monetization just like Ubisoft. Those games are never really €60 because there is always something which will be left out.
I bought the game 2nd hand and then sold it. It cost me like $5 to play it. That’s $5 more than you deserve you ungrateful piece if *****.
Reading between the lines, his point is completely valid and I support why and how he said it within the platform it was said. Gamers and media can be incredibly fickle, especially in the age of politically correct internet mob rule, and I don’t blame him for feeling frustrated by it. People swear. It’s reality.
Hi there fellow gamers.
My comment was way to long, I was rambling a bit to much, that´s true, so I´m just going to say this on this matter.
I enjoyed Days Gone a lot. More than I thought I was going to.
I bought the collectors edition of the game on launch week, but only played the game a few months later. Not because of initial bugs, but only because I was playing Devil May Cry 5 and Sekiro: Shadows Die twice at the moment. And loving them both so much.
I am probably one of the very few people that liked the main character of the game, Deacon St John and the other characters as well, wich I won´t mention their names because of spoilers.
I tought it was a very good open world post-apocaliptic zombi game.
I enjoyed the narrative, most of the cast and the dialogues between them. I think it was because they felt like real people with their reasons, feelings, motivations and flaws. It was like they were characters written for a really good tv show.
Some say it´s to long of a game. Not for me though.
There is a moment in the game when I felt it was closer to ending and then I was like: "wait, there´s more of this game? Cool! I wonder what else are they gonna trow at me and what else am I going to experience".
And with that being said, and especialy with how the game kinda ends in a cliffhanger, it´s sad if there won´t be a sequel to this game and it´s story.
We know that Bend studio is making another game and I hope it´s good, whatever it is.
Maybe it´s a Syphon Filter game, a reboot of some sort or a Socom game with a strong narrative singleplayer experience, with some co-op in the mix.
But can we get a Days Gone 2 as well?
A even better looking game, running smothly on PS5, with some fine tunned gameplay mechanics, with even more ways to deal with the freaker hordes and a follow up to the story?
Pretty please Sony?
Maybe one day we will.
Cheers, stay safe, stay well and happy gaming experiences to us all around this big old world of ours
what an absolute PoS
My trouble with his statement is the same trouble I have with big grand collectors editions of new IPs. I know nothing about your game, it’s not an established IP, in this case it had a very generic sounding concept, I’m not buying it day one.
While I love that an Englishman runs PlayStation - a Geordie, no less - it's absolutely time that Mark Cerny took the reins. A passionate gamer and developer, he'd never have let Sony end up in this slight PR snafu.
That’s odd coming from a corporate spokesperson. Doesn’t he realize gamers want to pay as little as possible just like corporations do?
@fR_eeBritney Damn I wouldn't be happy losing that many points!
I use my point almost immediately, but I do remember there was a couple of months, a year or so ago where I seemed to have about 2 bonus games a month....they should have offered you a couple free months at least...Or better yet not taken the points, probs worried you would use them to buy or keep new games!!
Ohh spicy 🌶 🌶 🌶
Would I buy a Days Gone 2 at full price? No, I’d wait for the general population to QA test it first. Especially given how messy the first was when it was new (at full price).
I mean, he's got a good point.
Then again, I almost never buy at full-price. I'm almost done with school, but money (as is the case with most students) is tight. I would love to show more support to devs, but in the end, bills and groceries come first.
@Don though I stand by my position, this was a deliciously biting comment 👍
I'm a serial offender If I love the the look of game I am in day one including Anthem, Cyberpunk, Days Gone etc.... I figured you have some bad eggs but mostly the games where finsihed. What i've learned the hard way, is day one is playing full price for the privilege of an inferior experience and is almost never worth it. I used to rationalise it about supporting the devs and being an early adopter. This has only gotten worse tho. WD Legion was a mess. Valhalla was a mess. Games are now £70! Days gone frame rate at launch was a mess. They fixed it yes. So what I really paid for was the 90% finished product which was then finished and given for free on PSN. People know the game will drop in price and we live in a world where if your game struggles it's going to be all over the internet. I get his point but it's a two way street.
I also don't get, let's say you're unsure about a game and wait for a discounted price and end up loving it. Is he expecting you to cut the developer a check for the difference at that point?
I want Days Gone 2 to happen! I paid full price for Days Gone! But get over yourself man, not everybody is going to pay full price for games, especially if they aren't sure about them. Plenty of times I have bought a game on sale after deciding that at a lower price its worth the risk and only then realised how great it is.
I understand Garvin's feelings but release the game that is good from the beginning and it will be bought at launch. Customers will always complain and they have a right to when they buy games unplayable and have to wait for weeks for a justification on a product they bought. I understand that it takes a lot of work, but then don't release the game until ready.
All the people say “it was buggy at launch doesn’t deserve my money” are the same people who preorder Cyberpunk, Valhalla, and most recently praise Outriders - 3 of the most buggy and half baked experiences to come out this generation
Aa a consumer. If I buy something I expect it to be good. Not a hot mess. Love supporting developers and God knows I have bought some really crappy games. But, if games are not being bought at launch, a lot of it is on the shoulders of developers not the consumer.
@2cents well I didn't buy none of the games you mentioned at launch precisely because of the buggy mess developers have the audacity to release and expect to be bought. I used to buy immediately, now I sit back and wait. Didn't buy Valhalla, Cyberpunk nor outriders.
@OrigamiCrane not only insane greed but poor effort in game development and lying...worse thing that happened are these patches. They have come to rely on those patches to release buggy messes and we just have to support and believe that they will fix it. Nonsense. Delay the game. Take your time and give us a game worth $70. I will gladly buy it
The game was a buggy, unpolished, unfun piece of garbage at launch you frickin goon. It's only now enjoyable to me on PS5 where it doesn't stutter constantly, and even then there are still TONS of AI issues.
It doesn't deserve a sequel at all, because Bend obviously could not handle the size and technological depth this kind of game required.
They need to be put on smaller projects, because they obviously can't handle big ones like these
And if they can't handle those, the studio needs to be reorganized. The launch state of Days Gone was un****ingacceptable, and obviously not up to Sony's QA standards.
Blame yourself. Not the people who tried to support your broken pile of crap.
Don't worry. I'll never make that mistake again.
@Alan_cartridge_ agree. I work hard for my money. It's like buy a new car and then waiting for the steering to be fixed. Come on now
I think at this moment in time the only AAA studio I buy from day 1 is Rockstar. (Maybe SEGA/Atlus if they count as AAA).
Whatever, Mr. Gavin.
PushSquare should close this discussion with a PushSquarey key: Creating a poll to let us vote for which game from Bend Studio we most want a sequel.
I don't want to influence anyone's vote, but I will choose Syphon Filter.
So now its the consumers fault, if a product failed to meet the corporations expectation? I bought Days Gone at full price and didn't return it - even though Gamestop was offering a full refund within 48 hours, if you didn't like the game.
Garvin is literally saying "don't even try to complain about a sequel, if you didn't buy the game at full price." F this guy and his future projects. Not everyone have the money to buy games at full price.
There is a point in and amongst what he's saying, but at the same time it's becoming less and less tempting to grab a game at launch. With prices going up for the base game, along with Deluxe editions and microtransactions, it's getting quite pricey. Plus too many games release in a poor state.
I get where he is coming from, the bulk of the revenue comes at full price in the first month along with all the press coverage and marketing, be nice if most new releases weren't a buggy mess at launch.
I bought Cyberpunk on release for £50, returned it due to the state and just rebought for £30 and the game works now (mostly).
We all know most big titles are half price within months, I picked up Resi 2 from the supermarket about 3 months after launch for £12... £12!
You know what I buy at full price? Nintendo first party games, due to a. they tend to hold their price and b. they actually work on release.
So Returnal is £70 with no demo. Resident Evil Village is out a week later and is £55 with 4 demos and an established I.P. RE doesn't need reviews to sell. A new I.P. with no history and no demo only does well based on review scores. No other way to risk the purchase. Days gone had reviews dragged down by technical issues. Outsiders has done well because it had a demo and gamepass amid technical issues.
Yeah, if the £60 plus was going to the dev alone this would stick but it doesn’t and that’s why those prices are getting steeper and steeper.
Oh and yeah, Days Gone was buggy as *****.
Why don't people understand how to cuss?
It's "full F%&*^$# price" You always put the statement piece in the middle.
Yeah how did that statement work out for Cyberpunk 2077 and Anthem.
why all the hostility Mr Garvin? i bought this game on day one loved it that much i bought the steele book edition. and now pre-ordered it on Steam. so if mr ryan gets his head out of the clouds he will see that there is fans of the game. pc sales will hopefully bring a sequel. if not the mods will be insane. #pcmasterrace lol
This mindset that developers deserve any form of support just by existing is a load of garbage. Prove your worth and maybe we'll let you succeed. This last decade has been hell for releases, nearly every triple A title has released half baked, buggy, or straight up unplayable. Days Gone was a buggy mess at launch and they paid for their incompetence. Higher game prices this generation will only make consumers think harder about their game choices going forward.
Let's see how many times we can shout the phrase "buggy mess" down the echo chamber 😋
While he makes a valid point, actually more than valid, it is completely true from the perspective of game development, the way he delivers this message is completely wrong and rude.
I am of the opinion that game development costs need to be scaled back for the majority of developers. Most gamers cannot justify the recent price increase, so developers must scale back development. I imagine most gamers would be happy with game experiences not exceeding a particular time frame, that way they can finish the game.
But this is just my opinion.
Apologies if mentioned above in which case I repeat..... I can't understand why all games don't have a 60 minute demo. That way if I like it I buy it and if its a middle of the road feeling for me I wait for the sale or PS+.
There's very very few games I'd take a £40 punt on let alone the new ridiculous £70 level.
Simple. There's no way you could lose sales with a demo, surely there aren't that many 'gamblers' out there - so why not?
Hey, come closer! closer... little closer. Okay hear me out.
I DO WHAT I WANT WITH MY OWN MONEY!
This is why companies have PR departments. The court of public opinion is ready to trounce.
Don’t go into politics, Mr Garvin.
@Grimwood Wrong on so many levels, the consumer can make an informed assessment of the steakhouse by reading reviews and listening to customer feedback.
Games are entertainment. And thus is subjective. Subjective pieces have different values depending who is buying it.
Most people clearly didn't think the game was worth £70 at launch. So here's my suggestions;
Match your budget to your audience.
Don't blame the audience for your piece not doing as well as you wanted.
Worst part of this, is that those asking for a sequel, most likely did buy at launch for full price. And rather than self reflect, he's going to deflect his issues as being our fault.
@Dubbicakes which all comes after the steakhouse has been around long enough to get reviews. But if you wait for reviews of games to come in, you're a no good stingy git, according to this Sony dev it seems.
The guy kinda have a point. Don't complain about a sequel if you didn't want to take risk and purchase day 1.
Unfortunately, I didn't buy the game day one. But that wasn't cause of the bugs or the poor reviews. It was simply cause I was not happy with the PS4 overall and just completely stopped playing it.
I'm someone who will simply buy any game day one as long as it not Cyberpunk levels of broken to just support the developers and their families, and to make sure these companies continue to try and take risk.
It the same thing with the closure of Japan Studio. A bunch of people started complain, but I sure 75% of the people complaining never bought any of their games.
But now we have a bunch of people acting all 'surprised pikachu' when Sony wants double down on established franchises, and make a Last of Us Remake
@Richnj Reviews come out on the day of a game's release or several days beforehand. You're a "no good stingy git" if you wait for a sale, not if you wait for a review.
Edit: Just wanted to specifically point out (because apparently it was not obvious) that I was quoting comment #172 and not actually calling anyone names. Richnj said, "if you wait for reviews of games to come in, you're a no good stingy git, according to this Sony dev it seems." What I should have replied with was perhaps something like, "I believe your statement would be more accurate if it was phrased as follows: 'if you wait for a sale, you're a no good stingy git, according to this Sony dev it seems.' " because Garvin was talking specifically about gamers waiting to purchase games at a discounted price, not gamers waiting for reviews. Hopefully that's clear enough to understand. If you would like to know what I think, scroll up to comment #2.
Hopefully people read this and think twice before attacking their fellow community members without taking the time to understand the context of what is actually being said and to whom.
The comment makes sense, but game developers and publishers have created this problem. When games are constantly discounted as soon as weeks after release, it incentives people to wait to buy games. I fall into this camp because I may want a game, but know I won’t play it right away. By the time I do play it, it will likely be discounted. On the other hand, Nintendo’s first party titles are rarely discounted and people buy them at full price more often than not as a result.
"Pay to be our beta tester"
No, thank you.
I did pay full price. Pre-ordered. Love the game. Experienced just one bug. As I've said previously, it turned out to be my favourite game of the PS4 generation. I would pre-order a sequel without knowing any more about it.
All of that being said, I understand why some choose not to... so many (too many) games are quite obviously released with little or no testing these days, only being patched after release - so people are increasingly cautious. The (in my opinion) unnecessary price hike for PS5 games will do very little to help the situation.
I bought it day one. As I do with everything I want to support.
@Spoonman-2 Yes. After paying £20 and enjoying it, you should have gone back to wherever you bought it from and insisted on paying them another 30 quid. Apparently. I don't make the rules. 🤷
Haha what a sad loser, he can frankly sod off with his moaning he's not rich enough! If he wants games to be purchased at £70 then he can damn well provide a full proper demo first then!!... but obviously he won't do that because it'll affect his pay cheque.. what an idiot. Because getting a refund out of Sony for anything is harder then tying a rope around the moon and pulling it closer to earth... so if the game is a buggy mess at launch, as they seemingly tend to be these days Sony being no exception, and they want you to buy it full price on Sony then they can actually offer a refund policy even if you've played the game for an hour or two. Or you know, actually launch game worth the money and that isn't a buggy messes...
@everynowandben Journalist reviews mean nothing. Firstly, publishers send them selected or limited versions of the game, secondly, they can and have been DNA'd about bugs and full story elements, thirdly, half act like shills.
You want customer reviews, which takes a while.
And no, people who buy on sales aren't stingy gits. They are judging the amount they are willing to pay for their entertainment. Sometimes that means they have a limited budget, other times it means the game isn't worth the asking price, at least to them.
@everynowandben So do you generally in life only go by other peoples personal opinions in everything? Because that's all a review is, someone else's personal opinion. Do you use others opinions in what car you buy, house, your girlfriend or wife, what you eat and wear? You can't have your own taste and opinions?
If you want people to buy your game at full price, then don't try to sell them a buggy mess.
The idea of patches fixing a game (sold at full price) after release, is the thing I hate most about the modern gaming industry. How about going back to the days when games were delayed if they weren't ready for release?
@lindos They don't offer demos because it costs them money to do it, and they are afraid it'll damage sales because people won't like the game as much. That's why Game Pass is good in this sense as you can play the whole fake for nothing, but they should similarly offer the same thing for game demos on PlayStation. You have no idea if you'll like a game and if it's worth the full price till you've played it personally.
@Richnj Dude, I wasn't actually calling people stingy gits, I was quoting your previous comment, sarcasm included.
Also, of course "professional" reviews are not perfect, but they obviously can guide you. The PushSquare review for Days Gone for example pointed out that the game has bugs that detracted from the experience. Additionally, user reviews are not a fail-safe surefire way to look into a game either - look at how many games get review bombed or sometimes the opposite like what was going on with Balan Wonderworld. On top of saying that, user reviews also do come fairly quickly anyway.
@S1ayeR74 ...Are you being serious?
I kinda agree with him. How many times have you seen people ask for a big AAA game to come to PS+ while the game was already one sale for under $20 maybe even under $10!
I have a list of big AAA games I will always buy day one. I also have second tier games I wait for sales on. I also have bought a few games on deep sale I haven't even played just to add them to my collection of physical games.
My last comment on this. If you make a great bug free game then people will buy it, if its a bug ridden broken POS people wont buy it Full F***ing Price.
LMAO!!!!!!!! BUY SOMETHING FULL PRICE THAT IS COMPLETELY UNPROVEN AND UNREADY FOR RELEASE!
Appreciate Jaffe pointing out the flaws in his logic. I get his sentiment, but like as has been said, if I bought every game by every dev I loved at launch for full MSRP, well, I'd have some significant credit card debt.
I think Sony Bend were likely in a difficult situation. Playing in the first-party AAA deep end for the first time likely means they needed huge initial sales and although the game seems to have a passionate fan base post-launch, it has been on sale constantly.
@S1ayeR74 If you're not trolling, please re-read what I wrote and the comments I was responding to. Your response is overly-aggressive and misses the point I was trying to make.
@everynowandben I am not trolling and stand by my reply to you, you accusing people as being 'stingy gits' for not buying games at full price, and relying entirely on reviews to purchase a game.
@S1ayeR74 Yeah, you didn't read my comments. Please try again.
#s 168 ,170, 172, 174, and 186
@S1ayeR74 I don't mean create a unique demo experience I mean simply release a timed version of the game. Surely that '60 minute only' is something Sony could help make a generic slap-on rather than additional coding.
@everynowandben I just wanted to be clear on the 'stingy git' thing.
And yeah, profession reviews might mention bugs, but like I noted, their experience can be very misleading due to the nature of the business.
And no, user reviews aren't perfect either, but that's even more reason to wait. Over time a better picture is built as more people review, and if you wait, you can hear about backlash related review bombing. And you can find the reason for say, lots of negative reviews. If most of the reviews talk about the trans character or the overly buff female, I can feel safe to ignore them. If they all talk about not being able to finish or enjoy the game due to the bugs, I'll take those in to consideration.
Ultimately, yeah, the best way is to experience it yourself, but as others point out, £70 is a lot of money to gamble everytime you want to enjoy a new game. Which again, makes his comments look like a joke. I learnt back in 2014 that games are so broken at launch now that buying at launch, and at full price is a fool's game, and it's especially so now, in a post Cyberpunk world.
@Richnj Look at comment #2 - I agree with you, dude. All I was saying in my reply to you was that Garvin is upset with people waiting for a sale, not people waiting for a review.
This guy is popping off like he’s some video game auteur, as if he didn’t directed the most generic contemporary game imaginable.
I appreciate the frustrations brought about by this - the industry is too beholden to metacritic scores and Day 1 hype, and games that grow by word of mouth over time should be rewarded - but let’s not pretend we’re going to lack zombie open-world checklist games if Sony won’t green light this guy’s project.
“by buying a game at full price, you're showing direct support for the developer — you're doing your part to maximise profit.” What a strange argument. 🤔 Last time I checked it’s not my obligation to maximise anyone’s profit. I get they want more people to buy full price instead of waiting for a discount. But even the bargain hunters and PS plus subscribers clearly demonstrate there is an audience for this game. And maybe, just maybe this audience is willing to pay full price for a sequel?
@lindos Some do that already, you'll have to ask Sony why they don't allow it for all games but again I suspect money and cost and potential most sales will be your answer.
Let me remind you guys that Knack, which currently has a 54 on Metacritic, got a sequel approved by Sony, while Days Gone, which has a 71 on Metacritic, way higher than Knack's, got its sequel project rejected.
I dunno I just find that funny.
@everynowandben You didn't make any comments at those post numbers? Sorry but your comment still reads the same, so my reply is the same. Perhaps you could rephrase what your point is? Because others seem to believe you are calling people stingy gits for not paying full price too it seems.
Make a game worth buying full price and I will. I bought Monster Hunter Rise and guess what, Capcom released a full complete and not buggy game. (Any that exists are very trivial).
Don't expect us to brainlessly buy things that aren't finished or aren't worth it. We’re not sports gamers.
@S1ayeR74 Of course they're not all my comments, I listed 5 comments for you to read again because that is the conversation I was responding to. It's not a lot of text. Re-read those comment #s please.
Okay, I assume you actually read those comments now. Do you understand now? Problem solved?
Maybe re-reading #199 and #200 would help?
@Wardenknight133 Knack II was pretty awesome though. I’m really glad it was made. Bring on Knack III. Probably not under Jim’s roof though!
I actually think there will be a Days Gone sequel eventually. Despite what’s being said now.
In a few years, when Sony need to pull something out of their arse because they’re afraid of coming up short against the competition... they’ll announce Days Gone 2 to the surprise of everyone and the internet will explode. OMG. WTF. Say wuuut?!
But realistically the game won’t even be in the development process and will eventually arrive 4/5/6 years later, after an extended period of absence.
I did buy it at full price, so I can complain.
But hey, maybe next time finish and test your game prior to release! The game probably scored 5% lower due to technical issues.
@get2sammyb Agreed. I always wait for a sale, specially if it's a digital version. Unless it's an indie game I've heard nothing but great things about, I'm not spending $70 on a "Triple A" game. I'm currently hooked on Children of Mortal (which I'm ashamed to admit I bought on sale last month) but I'm having so much fun with it that I bought their only DLC they have (even tho the money is going to charity, which actually made me WANT to pay for it)
@Wardenknight133 I feel like Knack was in a different situation. Since Mark Cerny directed that one, I bet he was able to pull some strings and get Knack 2 greenlight.
"Can I make Knack 2?"
"For the last time Mark, no, it didn't sell or review well!"
"....Ok but in exchange you'll have to advertise and show off the PS5 for us in a couple months."
".... Anything for my little blocky boy."
Maybe people don’t want to pay full price for another buggy zombie action game
My friend, game was buggy as all hell and was the main reason it didn’t reviews well. Why should people buy that full price?
But that's a dumb comment, if you don't know youre gonna love it then why would you pay full price? It's the sequels sales that would matter most because that's actually applicable
@peppermillian it did sell well though for a new IP. What is it now, 6 million copies WW? That’s amazing for a game that’s (let’s be honest) pretty niche (Horror, 17+).
What do they expect???
The game was awesome and it has huge support from fans (despite the overly harsh ‘professional’ reviews).
It reminds me of the Tomb Raider debacle, when ‘Rise’ got a year exclusivity on Xbox One because ‘the poor sales’ of the reboot meant a sequel ‘wouldn’t have been made’ without Microsoft’s dirty cheques (b*llocks).
They still made a third game though didn’t they...
@get2sammyb This is pretty strange coming from someone connected to the industry. Games are super expensive to make, expectations keep rising every year/gen, and you don't understand why Sony wants to charge $70 for AAA products? Games are not movies, you don't have to grab every 9/10 release. I would go on a limb and say most folks posting and enthusiasts can certainly afford that.
I haven’t played Days Gone. Don’t know about it’s history. BUT... its refreshing to hear somebody speak what’s on their mind. I get tired of the “corporate” sounding replies to everything! I still wonder how companies are going to sustain, through services like Game Pass.
I had no idea David had his own show. I used to follow his blog, religiously, back when he was working on rebooting Twisted Metal.
If full price is half today's prices than we buy it, not waiting for 80% drop. So go f**k yourself Garvin! Learn basic counting you idiot!
full price 70 - 10% purchases - 700 profit
lowest price 15 - 60% purchases - 900 profit
preowned 30% purchases - no profit
TOTAL PROFIT 1600
If half price without deals:
full price 35 - 85% purchases - 2975 profit
preowned 15% - no profit
TOTAL PROFIT 2975
Gets a 10 foot pole, nope not long enough.
i like it when developers or company men whatever, speak BLUNTLY! Tell the audience properly instead of dancing around it. It leads to a more interesting discussion as well and contrasts better with a strongly opinionated comments on the internet.
I loved the ******* game.
""If you love a game, buy it at f***ing full price."
Sure, if more developers want to put out working games that don't require endless patching in their first year to iron out a multitude of issues including performance, broken quests, crashes etc, I might consider it.
As it is, I know if I wait I can usually end up getting fully-patched GOTY or similar "complete" editions with all the DLC they'd normally expect extra for, and have no incentive to change that behaviour when I've been burnt several times in the past, thanks Mr Garvin.
Maybe now he's not part of Sony Bend he can work towards making that happen, rather than trying to lay down the law with savvy gamers who know better 😂
What a jerk. Hey — make a better game and maybe I’ll be motivated to buy it day one.
@get2sammyb Exactly Sammy. When you can wait and get more for less (a "fixed" game with everything included), why would you pay full price to be a beta tester?
Gaming nowadays means I almost never buy anything Day 1 due to it needing patches and being littered with bugs.
I give a single player game at least 6 months before i consider it because the industry has taught me that games rarely ever finish complete these days.
Er i can't afford games at full f##king price(sorry for swearing) In my 25+ of gaming I haven't bought a game at full price. Maybe that is bad, I don't know.
Cyberpunk make me learn to not buy a new ip at full price. i only buy at full price games i really know i will like of them.
The reason a lot of games are releasing as "buggy messes" as a lot of you put it, is because a lot of gamers want things cheap or free. Developers have less resources to work with, which makes them cut corners in development. Cutting corners means "buggy messes", so I agree with him when he says buy games at full price. @Carl-G who posted above me, YES that is bad. You can't afford $70 games but can afford $1000 console and $1000 phones every other year. Support game developers or get bad games from now on.
Yeh buy games at full price .... Wait I did cyberpunk .... That went well
@ATaco Well said my friend, want to sell games for dumb peaple? Go to sports
He’s clarified his comments a little on Twitter
Why would I pay the highest (retail) price a game will ever cost for the worst playable condition it will ever be in?
@kyleforrester87 that's more thorough and less incendiary but I'm still not sure it's the customers' fault when something doesn't sell well, which still seems to be what he's hinting toward.
Still the Twitter take is at least a more balanced one.
@GamingVeteran so cyberpunk released a buggy mess because of the 10 trillion preorders?
@zupertramp I think he’s just stating it as a fact, no ones fault I guess but it’s just the way she goes. No doubt publishers and developers could do more to help themselves mind you.
@kyleforrester87 His argument is stupid. He assumes that every person who complains about a sequel didn't bought the game at full price and if you bought the game cheap then your opinion doesn't matter - to hell if you didn't have disposable income to buy $70 games. Let's support the developers because nothing is more important than filling the pockets of these corporations.
@BrainHacker that’s literally not what he’s saying. He’s saying don’t wonder why sequels don’t get made if the original product didn’t make money. That’s it. Why the original product didn’t make money is an entirely different discussion.
@kyleforrester87 yeah just wish he'd acknowledge somewhere that if no sequel gets made it's also entirely possible the dev mucked something up i.e. the launch, the price, the gameplay... Something kept people from buying it and it can't just be about cheapskates or else no games would ever get sequels.
And obviously this is directed at him not you.
Edit in bold.
@zupertramp true, although judging by the responses here that’s pretty self explanatory.
@get2sammyb 100% I REALLY want Returnal, for example, but I cannot justify £70... but that's most down to the horrendous decision to equate £70 with $70. If it was £55 I'd be all over it because that would be fair.
@Mintie I'm confused by this because if you all get paid in pounds how is 70 pounds more? I mean sure it's more in relation to the American price but you're not getting paid American money so doesn't it all shake out the same?
Not being an intentional jerk btw... just never gotten this argument and so perhaps I'm missing something.
A ***** motherf... Capitalist. I will buy for sure at full pruce. But is not evryone that have money you d..*****! Even if thi live the game(s). We can live and suport but not all have money.is moree important things.like food, rent, bills, medics, etc
How someone like him is talking this?! Shame on you d..bag
Make complete games at launch and you have a deal.
We are here cause of company greed. No use crying to the customer about it.
@kyleforrester87 Really? He simply could have said that sequels are guaranteed, if the game was commercially successful.
I haven’t seen this many comments since the war of TLoU2 🤣
YongYea will have a field day on this one
@BrainHacker he probably should have said that, apparently there is not a lot of room for ambiguity.
People like this make me want to buy their games on sale even more than I already do
@zupertramp Yeah, as an American, I’m not sure how well the exchange rate communicates the cost. £70 and €80 equate to about $95 in an exchange rate calculator. But I guess that doesn’t take into account the cost of living, minimum wage, etc. I do know that others have mentioned the sales tax is baked in already over there, whereas we actually are paying about $76-77 of actual money once sales tax is added. It’s still a discrepancy, but not as large of one. I wonder how much of an items price is government sales tax in the UK and Europe. It could account for some of the higher price tag
Also, having just pre-ordered Returnal (yes, I’m one of those filthy gluttonous scoundrels that actually preorders and occasionally buys games on Day 1 😜) I know that you can typically find about a 10% discount online or at some retailers. I ended up paying $65. $5 more than what I paid for Ghost of Tsushima... to have all the fancy PS5 bells and whistles, I hardly find that price unreasonable.
With all this fuss about Days Gone 2 I'm getting worried Sony scramble to green light the more of the same so so cross gen co op game they were planning instead of waiting a few years and get a full on new gen incredible single player game.
I had no interest in this game, just based off its marketing. Thought it looked ***** stupid. Saw it on sale when I was waiting for the Last of Us Part II to release and figured I'd see if it'd scratch the itch until then. Ended up loving it. TLoU2's marketing did more for my interest this game than its own did. ***** this out-of-touch tool of a man.
If Bend Studio makes a new Syphon Filter game or better yet a sequal to Syphon Filter: Logan's Shadow then I'll be happily give them my money.
@Arckadius Me too, but that's because they don't go down for some reason so you really have another option.
He has a point, so many games don't get a sequel due to low sales but in this case, Days Gone was pretty buggy at launch so it's no wonder why most people didn't want it day one.
I waited until it was on sale for 30 and loved it!
If it didn't have as much bugs as it first did I imagine I as well as many others would've bought it day one.
If you want to sell a game, offer it at a price that sells. We know what's worth AAA prices (most of the time) and what's better to wait for a sale. Make your sequel, don't make your sequel. Might be a missed experience for me, but it's a missed sell for you. IDGAF. How many games started out small and then went huge? That's on you don't blame the consumer. That's the equivalent of a singer starting out at a small event and then spending the rest of his life blaming the millions that didn't show up that first night for why they never made it big.
lol. day's gone was not a well received game critically. that is why it didn't get a sequel. has nothing to do with its sales as we know it sold very well for a new IP. and no, i won't buy any game at full price for $100 lol... bend studio as we know it is no more. that might be a good thing to be honest. they did not put out a good game in 10 years... the jaffe interview was enlightening... sounds like there were issues with management at the studio as well. and to take 6 years to make a "decent" but not "great" game with such a massive budget is not acceptable for a sony 1st party studio. i respect their effort but it wasn't good enough. let's just be thankful bend was not shuttered and has one more chance to redeem itself (with new blood as the top level guys have since left and or were fired).
Then make sure it fully works at launch. Dingbat
That Jerk has 4 million in the bank thanks to gamers, and he complains about us not giving enough. Go &%ç* yourself Garvin!
@Th3solution @God_of_Nowt Yeah I'd assumed there's likely going to be fluctuations in cost of living and minimum wage and such but as there's really no way to account for all that I'm mostly left with the simple fact that while the UK prices are higher in American dollars, fortunately people in the UK get paid in pounds. Seems a fair trade off.
And wow at that tax rate. I figured maybe 10-15% was VAT but I was quite off the mark apparently. I'm over here stressing my 8%.
This just in: news site amplifies random bad opinions for profit and “engagement”
@God_of_Nowt Thanks for your clarification. Good to hear the perspective of someone who’s lived in both economies.
If you can afford a 500 dollar system you can afford to buy the games. If you like a company you should support it by buying it full price. Simple economics. Just like I love Housemarque so I have Returnal pre-ordered and it will be well worth 70 bucks to me.
What kind of logic is that? You can't know if you love a game until you play it. Especially fresh IP. What an idiot.
Especially when the game you think you want to play ends up getting mixed reviews and is said to be glitchy and buggy as hell, as DG was at launch.
screw you mr John Garvin, with how broken & bug ridden games are at launch there is no way i would ever give you my well earned cash to lazy layabouts who can't finish a game in a playable state.
@MFTWrecks exactly, days gone is just yet another example of how much of a mess it's launch was.
What a nasty person. Paying full price at launch is a risky gamble considering games are often unfinished and never reflect what was shown on trailers.
So many comments here and not a single one from me, I guess this one will do just fine 👍
I get what he's saying to some extent, Sony needs to have the artistic forsight to assess the value and impact of a new IP within the first year or so (not just launch window). These are complicated calculations, the value of a vibrant new IP is incalculable. Just ask Nintendo if they'd like a new IP. Sony made a mistake downsizing Japan Studio and canceling the Days Gone franchise.
I actually agree with him somewhat. Gamers treat gaming like it should be some cheap hobby when it’s not. They love to spend five dollars on a game then complain it didn’t get a sequel while being armchair developers it’s crazy.
I don't pay full price for western games, they are often works in progress, heck I am still waiting on cyberpunk as I hear it still needs work.
@Exlee300p Why didn't you pre-order the deluxe edition of Returnal? Now, Sony and Housemarque wouldn't know that you love them $10 more 🤣
It's not even bad opinion. It's one sentence taken out of context from a live stream.
Very disappointed in PushSquare bashing the guy for just stating facts. A commercial failure won't get a sequel is all he meant. People prefer shouting lalala rather than hear the truth.
He never 'blamed' the gamers who didn't buy full price.
Full price does not necessarily mean at launch either..
Wouldn't it be fair to update and post his response and clarification instead of just inciting hate for no reason?
Fair enough comments. So many gamers want something for nothing, with zero thoughts about the wider implications.
@JJ2 exactly. There are way too many tabloid level articles on this site. Quantity doesn’t mean quality...
@kyleforrester87 Too late now, he said what he did originally and now is deservedly getting the anger. He still sounds like an arrogant t*** in those tweets.
@everynowandben Your not making any sense at all, if you are unable to clarify your original comment and instead just keep on referring to others comments, then it's a waste of time. And my original reply to you still stands. The posts you keep referring to still don't make any excuse for your insults.
@ShogunRok From a previous one of your articles on the subject: the Japanese giant pointed to the lukewarm critical reception and lengthy development cycle as a reason to skip on the sequel." Would be a nice touch to be addressed in the article.
So, what is it, mister John F***ing Full Price Garvin?
i don't get it lol.
why is he complaining about people when sony canned it based on critic ratings... this is worst way to handle things.
@kyleforrester87 Such arrogant tweets. He was literally answering a question about Days Gone, and now he's saying "well, that's about games in general". Garvin, be a grown-up and just say "I didn't mean it like that, but I can definitely see how you've interpreted it that way." Instead of acting like others are stupid for not understanding you perfectly.
@H4ilHydra he's arguing that the game (and other games like it) didn't get a sequel not because of critics' ratings, but because it didn't sell well enough. He's obviously misinformed.
@naruball That's not what Schreier has been saying in his report. And he has already been walking back the comments that he made, so... No, the guy makes no sense.
Agreed. Generally basing articles on primary source (here the video they could have posted) instead of secondary source (here a transcript from another site when the actual friendly tone is lost) would help quality of reporting.
Nope. He clearly said metacritics is just as important as sales unfortunately.
@thefourfoldroot since you are usually quite sensible, I do need to point out to you that if developers took many risks to make different games, people will claim the same thing that they are saying in these posts above.
"we have no idea about the game! How do we know if we are going to love your game?"
There are times when developers simply do not want to take the risk because of thst very reason.
Why change the recipe if the final product keeps selling?
Tricky but both sides are quite valid and it is tough to find a common ground between the 2.
Not many developers can pull it off and then there is a factor of people's bias in favour or against a developer.
Last but not least, people keep crying over how "...rather buy games, and not rent from game pass" but doesn't it solve that very issue every one keeps moaning over?
You play the game. You like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Well continue trying another game.
But when it comes to game pass, narrative changes rather quickly around here. Every one is suddenly willing to pay 70 bucks for every game and no one is looking for any discounts.
I am literally just looking at people in here who are talking about their wallets and their choice on how they want to spend their money... While not wanting to support a developer unless game is half priced.
As far as bugs go, I am unsure how old people are in here but I can't remember name of games very well that released without bugs and glitches back in 1980s and 1990s.
I mean as a joke, we used to call em features. Because they extended the play time of a game by a significant margin. A glitch happens, and people lost progress, we used to start over. But now every one wants these perfect crafted games! Demanding every developer to spend ***** tonne of money on QA, WHILE not wanting to buy games at full price.
At the end of the day, yes half priced games are supporting developers, but you are cutting the budget for things like sequels and their potential QA costs when you decide to buy things for half price.
It doesn't justify cyberpunk like situations where developers had absolutely messed up on QA. But games like days gone shouldn't have been treated like 3rd rate commodity.
At the very least, game should have been priced around 50$ to begin one to attract sales.
At the end of the day, game pass makes sense to me for this very reason. I can try games without worrying about spending money up front. If I like it, I buy it full priced.
Regardless of harsh words used by developer in his interview, he has a legit point.
People just get too caught up with "I do things my own way" crap when his point is still valid, regardless of its bitter surface.
People need to grow the ***** up and stop behaving like its end of world when someone speaks out of frustration.
Understand the underlying problem, discuss it, and move on. No one is asking you to lick their boots.
Comments I have read here just boggled my mind.
@AdamNovice I don't agree often with you but your post 123 is spot on.
But he didn't get the 5 bucks.
So did you dislike the game? Or did you dislike him?
Did you sell the game after you read his interview? Or before?
And if you did before reading his interview, then was his comment "really" the reason for you to become part of the problem that was he was complaining about?
@JJ2 I stand corrected. I missed that part and focused on the twitter posts from comment 234.
Tell that to proud Cyberpunk 2077 owners
@TrolleyProblems Or devs could do what they used to do and release demos. Legit demos like People Can Fly did with Outriders. Or Capcom did with Resident Evil Village. Both those demos easily sold me on their games. There are also reviews. Even though most game reviews from so called critics bite the big one. There are a few who's opinion I trust. Then you have history of the game maker. Or if the previews sound lime something you'd like. Also take a chance on a game that's part of the fun. I'm sorry but they are not that expensive. Or try gamefly. It's not a difficult thing to figure out. The bottom line is if you don't support the companies and games you like they risk going away.
I've got nothing to say on the matter. I'm just here to push the comments past 300 because I've never seen it so high on Push Square. You're all bonkers. C'ya!
@BrainHacker I would have if they had it with the physical edition bud. As I said, I have no problem supporting Housemarque. I know Returnal will be quality.
Gamepass: “ You play the game. You like it? Buy it. Don't like it? Well continue trying another game”
I’m not sure it generally works like this unless the game is only on Gamepass / Now for a limited time, and it’s an ongoing service game. For single player adventures with a strong narrative and thus less replay value, the idea of buying a game to own after finishing it on a subscription service would never occur to me. In fact there are currently games I would buy, but am not, because I know the are on Now and I’m waiting until Now has a critical mass of games I want again before resuming my subscription.
The point about new ip or riskier mechanics making people reluctant to buy at release is valid for some, but generally not I don’t think. I mean we have older gamers like ourselves who read reviews or know how to judge after decades of gaming and generally crave new experiences; more general gamers who might not read reviews but wouldn’t want to keep buying generic sequels as they get bored; gamers who do generally buy the same types of games as it’s a preferred genre or developer; and then gamers who only play GTA/COD/FIFA/Fortnite...
The last subset are a lost cause anyway, the first two would either not care or even be generally discouraged by sequels and cookie-cutter games, so it’s only really those stuck in their ways who would avoid new game experiences. And then they still might buy if it’s from a developer they trust.
Still plenty of a market for more experimental games I think. I mean PSVR is hugely experimental and has a much larger barrier to entry with price and sickness for some, but that’s sold 6 million units 🤷♂️
And yes, his point is valid, when taken in his context of people crying for sequels. But many publications didn’t report it with that focus unfortunately, so I can understand people jumping to more visceral reactions.
@Wardenknight133 Knack I think is a more unique situation. One, Knack clearly costed significantly less to develop than Days Gone, and two, it was Mark Cerny's baby. Saying no to the architect of your incredibly successful hardware is a different proposition entirely. Three, Japan Studio was an odd entity in Sony's first parties. Their output was kind of all over the place.
On topic, I would be curious to know what percentage of Days Gone's lifetime sales were at what price point. Publishers love to flout big sales numbers when they have them, but the truth is clearly only a fraction of those sales were at the initial sale price. Tekken 7 recently cleared 7 million copies, an impressive feat for a fighting game by any measure, but the base game is $10 right now and is marked down several times per year. This isn't to say it isn't still profitable, but if 3 or 4 million of those sales were at $15 it doesn't seem nearly as impressive.
I also agree with people that had mentioned marketing. I don't think anything would have gotten me to buy it at launch - I usually only buy 1 or 2 games at launch per year - but Bend and Sony themselves failed to sell me on the game. It looked like a generic open world zombie game. Yes it had a motorcycle (Xtreme?) and it had hordes (cool?), but otherwise I could not have given a crap. I only felt vaguely like I should care because I usually get around to every Sony first party game.
If it makes him feel any better I've only bought a single Sony published game the entire generation at full price, and that was Everybody's Golf. Its initial price was $40, which is less of a stretch for me at launch. Plus it's a brand I know and trust.
@everynowandben How do you feel now,
Having (most likely) the most liked comment on pushsquare?
@ApostateMage Who would have thought huh?
That a post about days gone (not really but you get my point) is gonna be the most commented post! I would have thought it would be about cyberpunk 2077..
John Garvin should just go work for nintendo - where first party games stay at (or near) RRP forever, sales are as minimal as possible and the idea of a giveaway or a subscription model is practically a swear word (yes I know that nintendo has a subscription, but it doesn't really net you anything significant in terms of games)
They are reinforcing these kinds of consumer behaviours i.e. if I know a game is going to be discounted in a few weeks' time AND be patched to play better it's a win for me. This is always the case with PS games (not Nintendo, though, but their games are not buggy messes).
Offer me something substantial at launch to draw me in if you want me to take a risk by spending £70 and showing support. A free costume is not enough, make a difference to my launch experience that I will otherwise miss.
I can just echo what so many people have said above. A large amount of games launch in a buggy and broken state.
You can chose to pay the publisher to be a beta tester or wait a couple of months to get a better game at half the price. The only place this doesn't happen (in general) is with Nintendo - a day one purchase from them has almost always been rock solid - they get the pre-orders.
In an ideal world where we didn't have games launching in the state that some of them do, many weren't massively over hyped, and where everyone had plenty of spare money to spend on full price games, then maybe. Perhaps some developers should spend more of their profits on ensuring that games are ready for release, and less on advertising.
@S1ayeR74 LOL Dude, chill. Take a deep breath and go for a walk or something. You seem to have a lot of pent up anger. You attacked me over something you obviously misunderstood. I didn't insult anyone, I was quoting someone else - Just let it go.
Haha so glad I didn't sign that stupid petition! I would have got the sequel, though... On sale. On a side note, you're also paying the publishers, probably a larger chunk, not the devs. If you get games on sale, just ignore this man.
@Kidfried 🤷♂️ Maybe he should sugar coat his comments a little more if it upsets a certain type of person, but his point would remain I think.
@lolwhatno Haha.. Most liked comment of the day maybe, but definitely not ever on the site or anything. You might notice that comments towards the top of an article typically get the most "likes" regardless of content. Oftentimes this is simply because whoever comments first (or close to first) is really just the first person to say something a lot of other people were also thinking - I think that's what happened here too.
I won't judge and I'm not on any side but I understand where is this guy coming from. I read too many comments in the past like "ohh this game looks promising or/and amazing I'll definitely buy on a sale" So that's how a lot of people start with. Gaming is not a cheap hobby as it was mentioned above. Never been and never will be. Thought i understand many people just can't afford to buy full price games and that's fine for me but there are two sides of the coin. I think if you can afford it and you're interested in a game, the best way to show your support is buying a game around launch.
Personally i don't bother too much of buggy starts because they are usually being fixed after lunch with some patches ( not like Cyberpunk but that's a different story) So keep peace guys and try to understand both sides.
@God_of_Nowt This is true. Feel rather silly participating in that. However, I'm glad there are some people raising the issues of companies laying off devs (or non gaming corporations laying off workers) and then proceeding to pay themselves a ridiculously large bonus etc. Whenever there is some sort of argument about why things don't get done or why the state of things suck or why people don't have as much as wealth as they should, then it it always a good thing to note the problem of greed and what seems to be little regulation of it... Because the politicians suffer from the same condition. A good discussion but one I'm sure you're aware of.
why i should spent $60(R$300 here in Brazil) when most of the games is released unfinshed or filled with microtrasations? games is a expensive hobby and we don't have a lot of money to spent on games on lauch days.
@Machines 100% agree. Sony can ***** themselves. Returnal for $70 lol. That game is worth maybe $50 at the most on release.
I totally understand his sentiment here, even if it was a little confrontational. I always buy certain games, the ones that I want to give grass roots support to, at full price at launch. Though this means that I often end up sitting on that game until it's fixed, here' looking at you Cyberpunk ...
But I know that this is the sales figure that counts so if I ever have hope of a sequel, especially to new IP, then I have to take the hit. Speculate to accumulate!!
Bought it on sale, still haven't played it yet. Couldn't care less it's not getting a sequel. A game needs the "go ahead" before it gets cancelled, so it was never cancelled, because it never was a thing.
It's sickening listening to self entitled, so called gamers, taking the moral high ground on everything.
@everynowandben Totally correct statement (I noticed that myself),
but from the year or so (was lurking here before creating da account), never saw so many upvotes.... Stop being humble!
You threw on the floor the crown that I gave you, so let's do this again, shall we:
You dropped that king 👑
@God_of_Nowt very well said. It's shameful, but it sells, so it'll keep happening. Gaming sites have become no better than tabloids and people who read/visit them (including us) are also to blame.
@tinCAT-zero just people online in general, I'd say.
I am somewhat affronted by this comment on the basis that I did buy it at full price having pre-ordered it on disc. I also played it day one, and whilst I do have an admittedly poor memory, I do not recall encountering that many bugs (I actually don't recall any, but that doesn't mean that there weren't one or two).
I do think that with todays huge scale games, some bugs are to be expected, as not all will necessarily be revealed upon play-testing, so I don't think we can expect to find a massive masterpiece that has absolutely zero problems whatsoever, and to expect that is to expect too much.
Mind you, as I approach my 60's with alarming speed (which may explain my diminishing memory), I am reminded of a time when games came out in whatever condition they materialised. There were no refund policies. Games had many faults, and no way to be fixed. If a game didn't work, or stopped working, you just had to move on to the next. Much like if you got stuck in a game (as I did in the very first Resident Evil) there was no way to find out what to do. No internet walkthroughs, no forums...!
That isn't to say that releasing a buggy mess is acceptable, but you cannot expect perfection either...
@God_of_Nowt Definitely should have not been made an article out of this. A mere minute after his hot take he states that he knows nothing about Days Gone sales. He isn't in any position of relevance for Sony anymore either, so it doesn't really matter anyway. Also, the Schreier article stated Days Gone 2 was cancelled because of lukewarm reception and long dev cycle of the first game, not because of how well it did in sales.
I think there's responsibility with journalists to not report on such a thing at all in the first place. Or, at the very least, provide the right context.
That being said, also a part of the responsobility lies with John Garvin. He sought the media attention. He got asked a question about a sequel to Days Gone 2 and then he literally said this. It's not strange people will interpret that as being the reason behind it. He doesn't deserve any insults or threats, but he should also really distance himself from the company he left and let current Sony Bend control the narrative. He is not a dev anymore.
@lolwhatno LOL 😂 Thank you, I needed a good laugh to brighten up my morning. Cheers, buddy.
@Exlee300p Does it really matter if the deluxe edition is only digital? I pre-ordered the digital edition of Ghost of Tsushima but also bought the collectors edition which contained the physical edition inside. It's not out of the goodness of my heart to "support the developers" but its because I actually want it. However, since supporting the developers is such a noble idea. I thought you'd buy the deluxe edition to maximize their profit because apparently money is not an issue in all of this.
When did everyone start with this "show your support, pay more to fund them" nonsense like it's your duty to raise corporate employees as your children? There's some merit toward that attitude with smaller indies that are legitimate mom & pop type shops. Not with AAA content. We're consumers buying commercial products, not patrons of the arts. I'll accept this line of "support the developers" art patronage the day I see the publishers delisted from the stock exchanges and registered as non-profits. Nobody ever says you should invest in that timeshare so you can support the real estate agents.
@God_of_Nowt Have you considered creating your own site? Seems like you have a lot to say that other people aren't saying, and with a unique voice no less. You seem more than capable of making it happen if you really wanted to.
Dear Days Gone Director,
I DID buy it at full price. Not everyone can afford that. You seriously in it just for the money? Not everyone is rich. What a selfish person you are. A lot of people live paycheck to paycheck. It honestly doesn't matter if it was full price, sale price, PSN+.... people still bought the game or the subscription for the service for the game. Now, please make the sequel and stop bitching you didn't make enough money. You, the director sounds like a serious douche
@Jester1701one You mean between $25-$30
@God_of_Nowt I don't remember that last time I agreed with one's comment so much. Brilliantly said. All the points you raised.
It kind of reminds me an episode of Captain Planet where planeteers are competing against polluters on a TV show and polluters mention that planeteers simply don't stand a chance at winning, since it's faster to pollute than to clean up. Similarly, it's easier to rally people up than to do some research and provide some links. In other words, offer a more balanced view. Plus, that won't get you the same traffic, because the vast majority of people simply wants to confirm their bias, as you said.
The reason I keep coming back to pushsquare is people like you, whose comments I find much more informative than anything posted in the main article. I even skip those, because, with a few exceptions, it's always the same approach. A clickbait title, the truth twisted here and there, and boom! Thousands of clicks.
@God_of_Nowt More power and good luck to you then. Seems like that could be an interesting community/platform/resource to say the least. Be sure to let (at least some of) us know when the concept comes to fruition.
@NEStalgia Tell me about it. Even the PS5 community on reddit is crucifying this guy and you have people in here defending statements like this.
The gaming community is behind the devs of Days Gone for a sequel against a remake of TLOU, a game that is considered to be greater than Days Gone, and this guy just needs to ruined it. What a way to insult the gaming community that actually supports you.
Don't blame it on users.
Games are expensive, gamepass is showing that in a dangerous way.
People are more willing to pay a subscription than full price, which honestly, subscription is really bad since you don't own anything.
I bet more more people would buy new games if they werent $60 (PS4) or $70 (PS5).
And the income curve would be higher.
Sell more at lower price, get more income from increased sales numbers.
Not only that, his game was very buggy at launch, so no justification there. It wasn't a good game at launch.
His whole interview sounds just bitter.
@The_New_Butler Very true, for those with poor self control who don't mind being exploited by shady developer practices, loot boxing and MTX is a huge issue, as are "remasters" when they just end up being straight ports of "Complete Edition" type games. Nintendo is getting guilty of the latter now, after holding out for years.
@Phelaidar "People are more willing to pay a subscription than full price, which honestly, subscription is really bad since you don't own anything."
While I see your point, that's not necessarily true when you can buy the games you like on 20% discount and if you choose, cancel your Game Pass subscription. Or isn't a concern for people who buy games once, play them until they complete/get bored, and then would have sold the game anyway, they probably won't ever feel like they've lost out due to the way they consume their content.
How do you know you're going to love a game before you buy it?
@Logonogo Hehehe you're only about the 50th person in the comments to point that out 😏😃
@Phelaidar Basic sales economics seems to go over gamer's, and gaming executives, heads for some reason. If the Push Square commentariat on value and pricing were to be believed, Amazon would have failed by 2005 and Walmart would have been crushed in the early 90's, since their entire strategy was cut prices to the bone by shrinking margin to pennies and selling in tremendous mass. Gamers aren't used to having competition from different models. Neither are executives.
And then there's the perennial argument about inflation, which people seem to never realize is an argument against higher prices. The rapid increase in inflation would have justified higher entertainment costs if incomes kept up with it. But the US has been mired in "stagflation" since the 70's. Rising costs and relatively stagnant incomes that never keep up with inflation, meaning essentials continuously consume a greater and greater percentage of the majority's income leaving less discretionary income for entertainment and luxuries. Currently that's worsened by an "upper" third of earners that have seen incomes eclipse past inflation rapidly, and have more discretionary income than ever, leaving an entire economy driven almost exclusively by whales seeking luxuries to sink money into, driving prices up further in many areas, compounding the issue. Gaming and tourism seem to be the only entertainment sector industries that can get away with rising prices. Tourism is understandable, it was a hobby of the wealthy primarily since time immemorial. Not gaming, so much. The potential market is tremendously larger.
We have MS and Amazon breaking in with subscriptions, and the value they propose, long term, seems guaranteed to permanently affect the pricing model. It's the Walmart/Amazon effect all over again if it ends up successful. Minimal margin per player....tremendous volume of players. Everybody wins. If it works. And if it works, this old stodgy "authorized dealer pricing" model can't hold up against it forever.
If people, "whales" are sitting there wagging $100 bills, of course they're going to take them. They're not going to walk away from that model while they have a sizable market throwing money at them, even if it's a relatively tiny market. But what will impact them is if everyone including those whales just decide that $10/mo (or free with Prime) makes more sense than wasting money $70 at a time.
@The_New_Butler Exactly right. Record profits, milking a luxury seeking market of wealthy that are getting ever wealthier. I always like to reference a report, I don't think it's available publicly anymore, that was done for the US retail industry by a UK firm breaking down the "retail apocalypse" real cause. And it wasn't "because millennials want different things" and "the experience economy" that we're always told is the reason. They found that young and old had roughly the same spending habits by income. There wasn't a "millennial" difference at all. What changed was especially since 2008 the growing income divide. They identified roughly 3 thirds of the economy. The bottom third was for the first time making less money than is needed for essentials. One full third of the economy can't even afford essentials let alone luxuries. Expenses eclipsed income with housing consuming over 3/4 of all income. The middle third saw a massive drop in disposable income as other costs including healthcare rose, and were thus spending much less. Almost all growth in retail was seen by the top third who had seen incomes grow to such an extent that their new spending almost entirely erased the spending decrease by the other two thirds. However their buying habits were almost entirely in the high luxury category.
Thus the retail apocalypse. The mainstream/middle class retail market sank into an unrecoverable abyss and closed up wholesale. The high end luxury market exploded to never before seen paces as the average person can afford less discretionary spend than ever, and the wealthy can afford more luxury than ever. Thus luxury products and services almost entirely replaced commoner products and services on the "high street." Meanwhile, on paper, they can boast about a stable retail economy with growth, while neglecting to mention that's referring almost exclusively to luxury goods and services to an elite clientele, while everything else languishes and craters.
That's a very broken, and very unstable economy. And that's the economy the games market appears to be tapping into and making money on. I'm not sure positioning Playstation as a product akin to Gucci and fine French cuisine is a long term sustainable product placement.
@zekepliskin hahaha my bad i didn't read any of them
@AFCC Your profile pic matches your comment perfectly.
@Logonogo Hahaha no worries man, I usually write a comment and then go back and read the rest... it just made me chuckle. 😃👍
@NEStalgia though I somewhat agree about inflation, you should also take into account just how much a game back in the day used to cost compared to the budget the average AAA game needs nowadays. The difference is absolutely massive and for every GTA that pulls insane numbers, there are hundreds of other games that struggle to be profitable. Sure, there are more gamers than a few decades ago and there's DLC and MTXs that increase income, but still, some games rely entirely on how the base game sells to make a profit.
So, even if you take out the argument about inflation, the mere cost of modern games is significantly higher than that of older games that cost about the same. With detailed graphics, motion capture, voice acting, etc, the difference is day and night.
@UrbanPlaystation I've read parts of the Jaffe interview and this guy openly admitted that his departure from Sony is because of his personality and not that the sales performance of Days Gone. The guy was probably an ass to his devs that Sony wanted him to attend "training" to deal with his behavior/leadership problem.
The PS5 community is chewing this guy out. This is the only website where I actually found people defending Garvin.
Maybe you should read it. Can't believe you actually watch a 4-hour podcast.
@UrbanPlaystation It's better, If I just post it. Just in case I'm accuse of making things up for no reason like I'm working for Microsoft 🙄
"Elsewhere in the four-hour interview, Garvin confirms that his departure from Bend Studio was based on his personality, rather than anything to do with the performance of Days Gone or any potential sequel talks.
After being asked directly by Jaffe if he was fired, Garvin replied: “It was a hard, long development, six years, and I worked six years of crunch. And here’s the thing, I love working crunch. […] I love what I do so it’s not that big a deal, but that doesn’t mean it’s good for me. So the last two years I’ve actually been away from the studio have actually been a blessing. I have been able to get up and do what I want, I’ve written three books, and it’s just a different thing.
“When you’re in development it’s a non-stop pressure with milestones, profitability and people management […] and to be honest, at the end of the day, what it really comes down to is, we had a few heated arguments over the last year or so, and I would end up yelling and saying something like “just give me a package so I can get the ***** out of here”, some ***** like that.
“And when it was just Chris [Reese] and I in a very small studio, that kind of heatedness was fine, but by the time you get to a 100-person studio you can’t have one of the directors losing their temper, you know. And I’m not a great people person anyway, and it’s not like they didn’t try, I was put through training a couple of times, like ‘hey, here’s how you go out to lunch with people more, and be a better director’, and dude, I just kinda sucked at all that.”
@naruball It's true that older games cost disproportionately more compared to income, but there were multiple mitigating factors there as well. First was the rate at which they were discontinued on bargain bins, even moreso than today. I have a huge carton of NES games I had ages ago...most of them weren't more than $10. You may not get SMB3 for that price, but virtually everything else fell in price rapidly. The US had just come out of the video game crash. Retailers didn't want unsold stock sitting a second longer than necessary. Second was used games. It still exists today, but back then used games were abundant and cheap in part due to the rental businesses. Game Stop effectively raised the prices of used games considerably. And third, the rental business. It wasn't too common to own more than a few games back then, most of our games were rented. It was the only way to make it economically viable.
That's why I tend to snicker when people disparage Game Pass and the like by calling it rentals, etc, etc. I'm like...well...yeah? It's less money than most of us used to spend on actual physical rentals back in the day, with a ton more value, and that's how we played most of our games back then, too! It's like going back in time, without having to race down the street at midnight to avoid the fine on Earthbound being returned a minute late, which probably says something about the cost of games and the amount of competing studios looking for that money.
There's also the issue that, from the consumer perspective, the cost of each game went down in comparison. But from the perspective of the industry, a lot of the money they were charging back then didn't pay for the game development, or profits, but rather the electronics you had to buy the game on in the form of a cartridge. The savings from that was one of the biggest ways Playstation had so much developer support as a newcomer with their fancy CD-ROM format instead of cartridges. Especially with Nintendo's extortionary blank cartridge pricing at the time, so many publishers were spending a lot of the purchase price of the game just on the cart to stick it on. Even if the sticker price went down since then, the actual revenues didn't necessarily drop the way it would appear, an electronics manufacturer was getting a lot of that value (or in Nintendo's case, pure profiteering off their licensed devs.)
@The_New_Butler Yep, very dystopian. The science fiction writers in the 60s and 70s saw this coming back then, with so much written on the concept. I've believed for a while we're essentially heading back into feudalism under a fancy new name. But it doesn't look much different. Feudal lords, corporations, the structure isn't much different as it all consolidates, and a sharply divided upper and lower class without much, if any, middle class. We're going back to the 12th century and declaring it "progress"!
@UrbanPlaystation Did you read it or what? I don't even know if your sarcasm is supposed to be funny.
The fact that Sony even paid for his leadership training says a lot about this guy.
These comments. Wow!
Gimme a game that's very good and well done from day one, and i'll buy it full price, Deluxe Edition even.
If you don't/can't/won't, then quit yapping... it deserves to be bought at a discount, the cheaper the better.
The blame rests with you, Mr Garmin, plain and simple!
@UrbanPlaystation It didn't come out of my mouth. That is his own words. Why the hell would Sony put him into "training" to be a "better director" if he wasn't being an ass to his people smh.
@UrbanPlaystation So, now I need to work with a big company to know if my boss has anger management issues. The mental gymnastics to defend this guy is unbelievable.
@UrbanPlaystation Dude, the guy admits that he is not a people person. I'm not saying that he's a bad guy. Frustration is guaranteed at work but it doesn't make it right that you have to vent your frustrations to your employees. Even Sony think that he needed training/intervention. That came out from his own mouth not mine.
@The_New_Butler Game Pass is going to make it even harder to justify AAA prices.
The game was brilliant at launch and had very few bugs. I bought it full-price and loved every moment of it. It's still an amazing game that has only improved with time. Sad that Sony doesn't see the potential. I blame the SJW review onslaught that followed its release for this as much as I do Sony not investing in a clearly great franchise.
This was clearly a 8 or 9 out of 10 title AT release.
Release them when they're actually playable and not buggy messes, and people actually might just do that!
Wow! How out of touch is this man? If someone buys your game period they are supporting you. I bought days gone on launch and loved every second of it, im sad it didn't sell enough to warrant making a sequel. Going and telling fans they are only supporting the game if they only give the most amount of money is just plain bulls**t.
I get the frustration but not everyone can afford to buy games at full price, so games are only for the wealthy? You suck if you buy games on sale? Utter bollocks!
@God_of_Nowt Well said. I don't blame pushsquare either, it is clear that an article like this will pull more comments and views because people seem to be more engaged when they're outraged now. Perhaps this is something in human condition, or perhaps that's where our culture and influences have taken us. A lot is going in the world and I suppose some are venting at something like this to maybe get some release, though in the long run, it won't help. Let's all have a cup of tea and be more zen.
@God_of_Nowt Ahhhh, I see you have had a similar discussion with @naruball already! Good luck on your project, though. I'm interested!
Cyberpunk...... learnt my lesson there buying a full price game I really wanted.....
This is just a sad situation and an awful trend in the press. I feel so sad for John and I know he meant well giving a fair advice specifically aimed at David Jaffe audience (who are used to his hot takes) and one sentence got picked up from a 4 hours stream. It's no wonder it's so difficult to have developers speak their mind.
The irony is the press will be just as quick blaming gamers for their toxicity like PushSquare did for that random guy they singled out for just asking for a suit for Spiderman. Or attack some random youtuber for telling lies but ignoring the fact they have mental issues. The readers are easily manipulated and unfortunately part of the cancel culture hate mob.
There is a dangerous dehumanisation side where the press forget that the individuals of their choosing they attack are only humans and there can be consequences.
@B_Lindz and your profile gif matches yours LOL
Maybe I should change mine to the gif, don't know how though!
Hahahaha hahahaha hahahaha 🤣🤣🤣
This has to be a joke...
@get2sammyb no, neither can I that's why I'm in no rush to get a ps5 tbh
@Bingbongboyo those days are long gone now unfortunately
@TrueAssassin86x or for free 🤣🤣
Yeah how can I know I'm gona love a game before I buy it? what he needs to understand is that in todays real world to offload 60 bucks for a new release, with mixed reviews is a real big ask. Its why it should be like the old days where they have a 1/ 2 hour demo or 2 demo missions from the game to help determine whether it's worth the full price or not. Now I have the game for free part of ps plus its an amazing game and I like it a lot, would I have paid full price for the it had I known what it's like? probably, but I didn't so.... Tbh i get where he's coming from, but developers need to understand that there word alone is not enough to justify 60 bucks on a new game, and with other games out there and the mixed reviews tha game got he shouldn't be suprised nor slate anyone for choosing there money elsewhere. One thing I will say is that for a while now reviews are getting worse overall, I see/hear bad reviews orange mixed ones like this and when I play it i find them excellent just like days gone. Needs to be a better try before u buy system to help otherwise its a 60 quid gamble
@munstre You’re right, but the implication is definitely “if you want more games like this...”, and let’s be honest, there will never be a shortage of generic games. I feel enough pressure to buy games to “support” them when they are bold and unique.
id love to be a video game dev so i can tell gamers off like him. gamers need to be put in their place more.
Garvin is a total moron. No video game, not even my favorite games, are worth 80 dollars, which is what a new game goes for here in Canada. Not one video game ever made is worth 80 dollars.
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