Sony has dipped its toe into the hypothetical subscription future with its revamped PS Plus tiers, but it’s resisted the temptation to include tentpole AAA titles in its service on day one, like Xbox Game Pass does. It’s argued since the beginning that this business model is unsustainable, and with projects like The Last of Us: Part 2 and Horizon Forbidden West costing upwards of $200 million, it’s not hard to see its point of view.
And speaking with lawyers as part of the FTC’s ongoing lawsuit against Microsoft as it seeks to buy Activision Blizzard for $69 billion, PlayStation bigwig Jim Ryan implied that the publishers he speaks to aren’t exactly enamoured with the potentially disruptive business model either. “I talked to all publishers, and they unanimously do not like Game Pass because it’s value destructive,” he said, as reported by The Verge. “I talk to publishers all the time, and this is a very commonly held view over many years by the publishers.”
Microsoft has already admitted that subscriptions impact full-price sales, and we suppose the fear for publishers is that if customers are consuming the vast majority of their content through a monthly membership, they may be reluctant to spend their money on titles that aren’t included in them. We’ve obviously not reached that tipping point yet – subscription growth has actually stagnated in the United States so far this year – but it’s easy to understand the potential concerns.
Elsewhere in the court hearing, Ryan expressed surprise at Xbox Game Pass’ confirmed subscriber total of 25 million in January 2022, as he admitted his company was “expecting a larger number given all the money they have spent”. Fascinatingly, the Redmond rival has yet to give an update on that figure, implying growth may have plateaued.
[source theverge.com]
Comments 63
The proof is right there for all to see, 95% of AAA games do not come to Gamepass or PlayStation plus until many months after release when sales have died down. He's only speaking the truth.
Even with Gamepass Microsoft are coming up with ways to get more money so it's more sustainable for the big hitters like Starfield. They have recently upped the price of gamepass and are offering gamepass users to play Starfield 5 days early for £35...
Now that games like Starfield will launch on GP day 1 this narrative might change.
I’m happy to pay for new releases, gotta support the developers
Then why do many of them, I clouding Capcom and Sega/Atlus, keep adding games to the service???
Does not sound that “universal” of a perception to me.
@Tharsman With the publishers you mentioned, games like Exoprimal could do with a healthy pool of players at launch so that's probably Capcom's thinking there. And the Yakuza games would probably have limited sales on Xbox as it is so it's probably better then to be on Game Pass.
I mean ... it's true because it can completely f*ck your sales BUT if you game isn't going to sell anyway on xbox of course you love the secure gamepass money MS can give you.
That's why it's funny when Xbox said exclusives are more expensive for them because of their player base when actually having games on their service it's actually "cheap"´compared to PS because of the playerbase demographics.
@AdamNovice he said “universal” dislike. And it’s not just Exoprimal, there is also the new Capcom IP Path of the Goddess, and we also got Plague Tale Requiem day one. It’s as if those publishers that try the model end up liking it and coming back.
@Tharsman He's more referring to AAA games which those games aren't. They won't have had budgets exceeding £100m. It's more easier to take the short term gain on smaller titles but it doesn't add up on bigger games.
Well I definitely don't buy games anymore since the PS+ revamp
@AdamNovice Redefining markets terms to fit narratives is the name of the game this week, at the end of the day.
@Tharsman I think subscriptions do have a benefit for some titles (like multiplayer games with microtransactions), so I suppose Jim is referring more to those tentpole AAA single player games.
It's a fair counter-point, though.
For games at launch, I agree. I make a point of not buying anything that go free to GP or PS+ until they're bargain bin prices for just that reason. I'll either it play the "free" version or (more likely) ignore it entirely.
That said, I think the tactic of reducing games to practically nothing in sales, as Sony was notorious for doing last gen (snagged games like GoW and HZD for $10 just a couple of years after launch), is far more "value destructive" than games temporarily being available on a subscription service.
@get2sammyb Have we heard that Path of the Goddess is a multiplayer game?
Also, not GamePass but additional counterpoint:
EA has EA Play Premium on PC that equally “devaluates” all their games and UBisoft has UBisoft+ on PC and Xbox that also does the same.
It’s not GamePass, but it’s the same model: day one games for a subscription fee.
I called Game Pass being like TV subs. It’s gonna be cool when there’s 1 or 2. But eventually every dev is gonna wanna do their own service and then you’re paying $80 a month to play the games you like instead of paying the $60 every so often to get them.
Look at all the reshuffling of staff and cancelation of shows that steamers face. That’ll happen to gaming. Or they’ll begin churning out mountains of shovelware to try and keep you interested.
@Ralizah those games make millions for the first year or so. Then 3 or 4 years down the line they’re not really making anything. I’m betting that $10-$20 price tag boosts late life sales quite a bit.
@Tharsman Don't think we know much about that one at all, to be fair! But no, we don't really know if it's multiplayer or not yet, I don't think!
@get2sammyb went to the official page to see if they had any info and it does say at the bottom of the page:
Btw my point is mostly about Jim’s claims that publishers universally feel services like that “devalue” their games. Given how many are added to GamePass, and how UBisoft and EA offer their own versions, I would say the feeling is not universal. It might had been a long time ago, that I could believe. Today? I believe for sure ABK and 2K feel that way.
@AhmadSumadi Three or four years down the line is a little different, but some publishers, like Sony (last gen, at least), Sega, and Ubisoft are too aggressive with it. As with Ubisoft, it can backfire and teach people not to buy their games at launch.
In general, it's the reason I skip most games not published by Nintendo at launch. I know it won't be long before they're half-price off or more in sales.
And, anyway, once they're 3 - 4 years old, it doesn't do any more harm to add them to a sub service.
Game Pass kind of lit a fire under me in the exact opposite way Microsoft intended. I make sure I support the games I want to continue to be made now.
Ragnarok, Tears of the Kingdom, FFXVI, etc. I'm rallying behind the giant AAA single player exclusives before I take Microsoft's too good to be true deal and help them destroy the industry.
Just like 10 years ago when these clown CEOs said Steam sales devalued games...
Capcom hates it so much they are releasing Exoprimal on the service in July.
Block it, Thank you.
@Cashews Exoprimal is going to be a live service game, so something like Game Pass heavily helps those.
@UltimateOtaku91
Wait now, so Starfield isnt day 1 on gamepass?
Wasnt all games coming day 1 to gamepass but if you buy it you get it 5 days ahead.
Why isnt people giving Microsoft ***** on this lie?
@Neverwild because it’s literally 5 days later and you can play it on Gamepass? Most people probably moved on with their lives?
@Neverwild Pretty sure it's still day one on Game Pass, but there's a Premium Upgrade that gives five days early access (costs like $35 or something). So, I guess you could purchase that and not the full game, but still get the early access?
@Neverwild buying the game still does not give you access to the 5 day head-start. Only the deluxe edition (or whatever it’s called) gives access to the 5 day “headstart.”
Most people are not giving MS any ***** over it because almost no one cares about 5 days. The few that do care have voiced their concerns.
They have a choice to put on GP, you dont have to take Microsoft's money.
What about Capcom releasing Exoprimal. It gives consumers a choice on Xbox, buy it full price or gamepass. For PS owners, you're SOL.
@MasterVGuides
You’re right, it’s day 1 on Gamepass, but day -5 for anyone who wants to pay more! LMAO.
Seriously though, release is whenever the full game is available for people to buy and play. Don’t fall for the marketing spin of making day 1 into day -5 to get people to pay more…
I bought Starfield, gotta support the devs with my $0 from bing points from past 1.5 years of nothing. Never giving microsoft money
Exactly what I expected really, the same thing happens with Netflix, Spotify, etc all streaming services. The creators don't like them but they feel they have to be on them to stay relevant. People say well why are publishers choosing to be on there then, to me it's the same as how the majority of artists hate Spotify but are still on there. If you're not, no one cares, and no one's gonna buy your album.
Eventually every damn publisher will have their own subscription service just like Netflix, Hulu, Disney, Amazon etc etc (ubi+, ea play)
@Tharsman It’s possible that developers think gamepass is eroding the value of games in the long term, but are more than happy to reap short term profits from big green’s generous terms during their drive to increase subscribers.
It’s also possible that developers speaking to Jim Ryan have been universal in expressing misgiving about gamepass. I hardly think “we love gamepass” works well as an icebreaker with Big Jim. I’m sure the execs at team green hear a different story during their face to face meetings.
@Ralizah I will absolutely not buy an Ubi game at launch anymore, 3 weeks and their games are discounted
.
I don't think anyone has spent so much money on so little success as Microsoft with Xbox. Maybe James Bond villains but that's all I can think of.
I can't speak for all Xbox users, but if a AAA game from EA, Ubisoft, Square Enix (ha ha), etc. releases on Xbox that I absolutely want to play, I buy it.
I certainly don't have the "I'll wait for Game Pass" mentality - because I could be waiting a long time (or forever as it could never release on the service)!
People always talk about Game Pass as if it is 100% the only way to get a game on Xbox or that it's required.
Of course Microsoft wants to bolster the value of Game Pass in the same way that Sony wants to bolster the value of it's subscriptions. But regardless, it's merely an option.
Publishers also aren't required to put games on there. Microsoft can ask, but they can simply say "no" and move on.
And for a game like Starfield - a game I suspect will be played by people for years - it's cheaper to just buy it outright than to keep subbing to play it.
I can understand some not liking it. I understand for some there’s huge benefits.
My worry is, are publishers just starting to pick the ‘average’ games to put day1 on services. Exoprimal is going to be a 6-8/10 game. If capcom liked GP so much, why isn’t RE put on there day1?
I think publishers are still figuring out what to do for the best. But will it change once MS stop subsidising game pass? Loop holes close etc?
@Ralizah We've talked about this several times. We buy Nintendo game almost always day one, because the bottom is basically never going to fall out of the price tag. However, I have yet to pay full price for a single PS5 exclusive, because I can basically count on PS+ or just deep sales within six months to a year. The only brand that doesn't destroy their own value is Nintendo. The others just destroy it in different ways.
Halo infinite is basically a glorified free to play game. Forza and most other Gamepass games make all their money off all the DLC they pump out for the games.
That aside, I wonder how many people actually buy games on the Xbox? I myself am thinking of getting a series S and just picking up Gamepass while buying all other games on my PlayStation. I don't see any value in actually buying games on an Xbox.
@PsBoxSwitchOwner @get2sammyb
Exactly, Capcom won't put games like Monster Hunter (new game), Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Dragons Dogma 2, DMC or Pragmata on a subscription service day one as they know those games will sell millions.
Exoprimal is a online game which will need a high player count to survive so gamepass makes sense and Path of the Goddess is a smaller AA level title and a new IP so it's less of a risk for them to put it onto gamepass on the platform that will bring it the least amount of sales.
Same with Sega, they put the games (jrpgs) that will hardly sell on xbox onto gamepass to atleast get some decent revenue off Microsoft, hence why Sonic Frontiers didn't come to gamepass as that is a wider known IP and knew a lot of sales were expected for that on all platforms.
@Rmg0731 Do you sincerely think MS Rewards is them just giving stuff away for free? MS Rewards is just an elaborate advertising racket and encourages people to use Bing to drive user engagement. You search on Bing, they collect advertising data and sell it, then give you pennies of the dollars they got paid. It's how Google makes money as well, Google just has no incentive to reward you for using Google because they're already the market leader by a country mile.
@Suda52 Steam's a must for PC players because the Microsoft versions of Bethesda games are all locked down and don't allow things like script extender. Here's hoping Steam continues to be more free to mod, wouldn't mind seeing Starfield totally DRM free and up on GOG some day.
As i said on PX i call BS here from Jim, he's basically using the "my friend said this so its true" card. I'm not saying what Phil says about GP numbers and profit are true but i would take his word on it over the man who runs the rival gaming corp.
Gaming is turning into a microtransaction filled, compulsion based grind fest. The majority of the biggest games come with stores, add ons, dlc, season passes and tat. Buy a game day 1, season pass and still they want more. (Digital art book anyone?)
We may as well get value as consumers whilst we still can. The publishers are all greedy. Gamepass and the PS plus tiers clearly cost xbox and Sony, and that can only be a good thing for us as sub holders as everything else during the maturing of gaming capitalism is getting worse.
@MasterVGuides sure. I guess it sucks that PS5 users are paying for the box while Pass users don't. Seems like a raw deal.
@UltimateOtaku91 I normally respect your opinion - but you have literally no idea what Capcom's plans are for their games. Where does it say Path of the Goddess is a AA game? Where does it say Exoprimal isn't going to sell as well as Dragon's Dogma?
For all you know they expect Exoprimal to be one of their biggest hits of the year. You are simply making things up to fit your weird narrative that 'Gamepass bad but like Capcom so...must...make...it...fit."
The reason to say this is to get the biggest cut from game sales as profit for Sony, and likely they cannot compete like a true GamePass even if they want to. It's common sense for PlayStation whom wants to grow in revenue only.
For Xbox it's more trivial to get income they want more of a hold on number of gamers. Like Microsoft said they have been in 3rd place since 2001. An constant uphill battle when they entered at a dominant PS2 era.
Just like Phillip is saying what he needs to to pas the deal, James is saying what he has to to get it blocked. Without concrete proof that every dev and pub hates it, it's just hearsay. Why the hell do you think he was too much of a coward to be there? So that no one would be able to ask him "what proof do you have?"
So that people will think his word is fact. If you believe him, good job. You been conned.
Commonly referred to as the best deal in gaming. By value destructive he means it doest bleed as much money out of the players as possible.
He won't be complaining about value destruction when he is releasing $70 live service games and charging $9.99 for a Kratos skin. Or when they re-release the last of part us 1 for full price every 4 years.
@Rmg0731 Do you want a gold star or something? Whether you know it or not, your money goes to them. They are more ubiquitous than any company on Earth. It's naive to think your money isn't going to them somehow or another.
Yet again more misinformation,starting with ,they charging £35 to play it early etc etc... ,You do know that isn't just to play it early it has dlc attached and like no one has ever done that before? , have you heard of a little game called diablo ?????? They did that too ,they must have done it to get money back from GP right ???? Oh wait they weren't on GP
I notice how no one is bringing up Ryan's emails saying how he basically wants everything sony's way or else he won't support the merger ,yet again half the truth , you can't have any negative or anything that's the truth on here
Publishers hate gp but are lining up to release Thier games say on on there ....hmmm
@Rmg0731 one and half years to get starfield ? Wow Ur missing lots , approx 30000 points a month if you do everything so 2 months half months to get starfield
@Martsmall That what I'm looking for making gaming a job.
@themcnoisy Isn't it great that you have run through games because they are leaving in a few weeks it's like having a second job next to my real job. I just finished Ghost of Tsushima in my own time and pace no rushing just playing when I want to play.
@Cashews Dont worry I'll pay and play when I please and how I please while the gamers with value can rush through the game what a deal.
I was going to make the same point, @Tharsman. My understanding is that Ryan said EVERY Developer dislikes Game Pass, yet that seems to fly in the face of some Developers putting their games Day One on the Service. I'm sure that they Developers lose many sales in the process, however, not only are they compensated by Microsoft in the first place, but what they also get it exposure. Exposure can lead to an uptick in sales of older games from people that like what they have played on Game Pass, and then seek older titles, which they then buy. That's why Microsoft's comment that Game Pass harms sales is not quite as black and white as the statement reads...
@Flaming_Kaiser 20 minutes a day is a job ? Ok pays for games by playing games
@Cashews Exoprimal is a new IP that has live service aspects. The thing would die on a vine within a month without some service including it.
And let’s be honest, even with it being on GamePass , it’s still going to tank.
If they included SF6 , you’d have a case, for Exoprimal, no.
I dunno
Not sure where value is lost, I mean
You either get one single game for 70 bucks. Or hundreds for 3. Hmm
25 million is shockingly low
@Chidoro lol okay. Capcom games die on the vine now.
@Cashews goofy trash that will tank?
Yep. Any MH, SF, RE, or other solid IP they have, nope.
@number1024 Xbot here. That last sentence you typed stung lol. Too true though. I played Outriders with my brother. I TRIED like hell to enjoy it. All I can say is thank god neither of us put money for that. And Microsoft wants to make a game with them? Yikes.
Guess the games seemed enough like Gears to give them a chance. But the balance was TERRIBLE. Cool while it lasted though.
I can see what you said as being true. Even with quality games like Soul Hackers 2. Game came out to absolutely no buzz across all platforms. They put it on not only to bolster hype and playtime, but recoup the costs of making the game. Someone put out an article asking why the game was not on GP and Sega hit themselves in the forehead and said DAMN. Few weeks later? “You must play this Atlus hidden gem on Game Pass now” articles came out. I myself bought that game day one because I didn’t know if it was ever going to be on GP and I hyped myself into it. No regrets though. I choose what to obsess over. And SMT is it lol.
@Martsmall If I "have" to do something everyday then it's a job. I don't have kids but I have a steady job and family so even if it's 20 minutes i have to pIay that sucks i play to relax. I don't want to play for value or engagement which is another word for you are stuck with it.
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