Discussing Final Fantasy games can be divisive at times, especially amongst the most dedicated fans. Each game is different, featuring its own combat mechanics, systems and story. Everyone has their favourite, which usually just so happens to be the first they played, often during the latter years of high school.
It's for that reason that we maintain that Final Fantasy VIII is the best one, and it's for that opinion that we have been cruelly ridiculed at times, but we digress.
Naoki Yoshida knows this and is getting out in front of it in the case of the next mainline entry in the series, Final Fantasy XVI, a project on which he serves as producer. In an interview with the Japanese site Comic Days, which comes to us via VGC, Yoshida speaks to the concerns some more old-school fans might feel about the series' shift to more action-based combat:
“We want the world, especially the younger generation, to play the game. Also, the mainstream games nowadays are intuitive games where you press a button and the character shoots a gun or wields a sword, and the traditional RPG style of turn-based command fighting is no longer familiar to them."
“It is also a fact that people are becoming less familiar with the old-fashioned style of RPGs, where you fight by selecting turn commands. That’s why the battles in Final Fantasy 16 are very action-based. We want to make people all over the world think that Final Fantasy is a great game.
This speaks to the sentiment that some have felt, with entries like Final Fantasy XV and Final Fantasy VII Remake ditching the turn-based roots of the franchise in favour of a more modern style of combat.
“Of course, I don’t think we’ll be able to satisfy everyone’s demands, so I’ve told everyone on the team that the first thing we need to do is to make something we think is fun, and make sure it reaches the people who like it.”
“This is not an argument of what is good or bad, but there is a difference based on the player’s preferences and age,” he said at the time. “Furthermore, there is a big difference between a command system and a turn-based system, and these are often conflated, but are two different concepts.
“RPGs originated with tabletop RPGs, and I think that gaming RPGs were invented by replacing the tabletop discussions with commands in video games. As I said, I believe I know the fun of command system RPGs, and I want to continue developing them, but I thought about the expected sales of Final Fantasy XVI and the impact that we have to deliver.”
What do you think about Yoshida's comments? Are you excited about the change towards action-based combat, or do you miss the turn-based days of the series roots? Wait for your ATB gauge to fill before venturing into the comments section below.
[source comic-days.com, via videogameschronicle.com]
Comments 60
I don't have a horse in this race. I like both turn based and action based combat alike. I'm looking forward to FF16 but turn based is far from as dead as he kind of makes it out to be in a few of his comments as proven by Persona 5 and SMT5 recently.
They are just different approaches to gameplay. No reason both of them can't co-exist.
Everything he said is very fair, and as an old-school RPG fan who has come to terms with the fact that old-school RPGs have become niche and no longer appeal to the masses, I believe what he said is very true. As much as I wish a modern, new turn-based FF game would hit the same mainstream success as the SNES and PS1 games that I grew up with, they just won’t. It’s why Square’s modern turn based RPG games are usually cheaper AA affairs or mobile games.
I’ll try and give this one a wait and see, but if the combat system is similar to 15’s then I think I’m going to pass. That’s okay. The older games still exist and I have no problem returning to them when I’m craving that old-school Final Fantasy gameplay. Sometimes we outgrow things, it’s just a part of life. Expecting Final Fantasy to continue on for who knows how many years doing the same thing is unreasonable.
I enjoy turn based and action just the same. They both scratch an itch.
Either way, if it's a final fantasy game, the memories are for me often made not with the combat choice but with the story, music, characters and setting.
If they're good then there's not going to be a huge problem turn based or action.
My one gripe with modern final fantasy games are the lack of summons which are obviously very time consuming to produce with modern graphics techniques.
Considering the latest huge games are mostly like that (elden ring, god of war, horizon etc) it makes sense why they'd go in that direction.
@Korgon
He didn’t say both can’t exist he even said he wanted to continue making them but he did mentioned “expected sales” and that is an important factor here.
Persona 5 sold great by Atlus standards (hell a lot of companies would love those sales) BUT if ff16 sold Persona 5 numbers it would be considered a massive disappointment.
Square enix wants mega sales numbers for this title you just know it.
And dropping the combat system is the easiest way to lower the risk of losing potential customers.
It will be interesting to see how the games combat is received as I get the point he is making trying to appeal to a wide range of people using modern combat.
However the style of combat at least from the trailer gives my devil may cry vibes (which makes sense considering who designed the combat system) but is hack and slash combat as popular as it use to be with the shift to slower more deliberate combat? (even God of War made the shift to that style).
Like DMC5 sold well but again like I mentioned earlier Square Enix isn’t looking for persona 5 or DMC 5 sales numbers here.
I could be wrong though who knows 😂
@TeapotBuddha
Loved ff7 remakes battle system, to me it felt like an amazing blend between new and old.
FF7 Remake found the right balance I think
This way of thinking is the most dangerous. Who cares if young are stupid or lazy to learn system of game? If you want to play it, learn it. Making things easier only supports idiocy of population.
FF7R is bright example, how easing system led into boredom.
I've played almost all Final Fantasies (except FF3 and of course FF11 and FF14) and love this series because of its system and mechanics. It is sad, I gave FFXV about 2 hours, because of action fights, but it only shows some things that work shouldn't be changed
FF7R's battle system struck a balance between the excitement of action combat without sacrificing the depth of turn-based party command. A pure action system where you're controlling one character just feels like a massive downgrade from that.
Either go action or turn based, the hybrid systems have been pretty bad. VIIR was the best attempt they've had at it but it pales when held up against something like Genshin or Tales of Arise.
I like both but the thing that gets lost without a command system is the feeling of being in control of a team. That is a sensation I always remember when playing a good JRPG. The Trails, Persona, Xenoblade Chronicles, and Tales Of series each try their own way of maintaining that sensation. I hope Final Fantasy can still maintain it. They did a pretty good job with FF7 Remake so I hope future iterations find a way.
I'm glad that Yakuza reversed this trend and went from action to turn based. Much better, in my opinion.
As long as ff stays action focused i wont touch them.
I like my jrpgs turn based.
I think he is wrong. It's Final Fantasy. It will sell the same turn based or action, maybe even better if turn based.
They should just copy the terrific combat system from FF7R, job done.
I really hope it's better than FF7Rs combat, that one was god aweful. Probably the least enjoyable combat system I've ever seen imo
If it is more in line with something like Nier, DMC or Dark Souls (combat-wise, not difficulty-wise) that would be amazing
And we already know that FF16s combat director worked on DMC5 so there's hope
That’s not something that boosts confidence in the product.
I think Square Enix's strategy is for classic FF to live on via the Bravely franchise while FF becomes your standard ARPG.
Hi there fellow gamers.
As a old school jrpg fan, I grew up with FFIV and Shining Force, turn based combat system games and have always apreciated them, as well as games like the Fire Emblem series.
But not every sigle jrpg was turn based. There were others who had action, real time combat system and they were great to.
What drew mw into these games was always the sense of an adventure, a fantastical jouney into the unkown, full of mystery and wonder, trying to fully understand what was happening with my party characters and with the games narrative.
I´ll say this, if the combat system is good and done well, it doesn´t matter what kind it is as long as it is FUN and ENGAGING as the Story and Characters. And an amazing soundtrack to make much more appealing and addicting to play one more hour before going to sleep.
Having said all that, I´m very much excited for FFXVI and really hope they can nail that combat system and have a interesting story, cause I like the setting and were it´s going.
Cheers, stay safe everyone and happy gaming weekend to us all
This sounds good to me.
FF VII Remake did a great job of paying homage to the old battle system, but also in evolving it in to something more fluid and modern.
I loved it.
@Grumblevolcano Yeah exactly this. I've had a similar thought.
They still have the old school games for those of us who love them, but the main FF games have been evolving with regards to combat.
@RaZieLDaNtE Best comment. ❤
Like somebody else said, as long as the game is a lot of fun, and the story and characters are both good, then I'll be ok with whatever battle system there is. Obviously if the battle system is awful, then the game isn't fun.
@Korgon As someone else mentioned there are levels. P5 sold 5million+ copies. SMT is in the 2-3million range.
A mainline FF game should be doing 10million+ lifetime.
I’m all in on this game regardless. But the whole ‘nobody likes turn based combat anymore’ excuse is ridiculous. Pokémon has a new release every year and sells million each time. It’s turn based menu combat and it’s more popular than FF by miles. Like I said, I’m all in of FF16 anyway. I’m not a ‘turn based or death’ kind of guy at all, I like both. But the excuse is daft man.
I enjoy both approaches. My only worry is if the battle system is well implemented or not.
I like turn based combat but now a days I prefer it on PC with mouse controls.
I hate turn based combat that's why I always avoid this franchise, but tried 15 and the 7th remake and it was really good. Turn based combat is definitely a turn off for me
@RaZieLDaNtE agreed. No one loved FF7 in 1997 because it was turn based. They loved it because of the adventure, the story, and the characters. I didn’t care what the systems were then and I don’t care now. Yakuza series is fantastic in both iterations, Triangle Strategy is great because of characters. Gameplay is king, but it doesn’t have to be one or the other if you have a fantastic story to go with it all.
Loved the combat in XV and VIIR, and honestly in 2022, I’d prefer that to turn based battles, for the most part. I mean, I grew up with the series. VII was my first one, then IV and VI, so that’s what I started with and what I liked back then, but I’m glad the series continues to evolve. While it’s an unpopular opinion, I actually like XV as much as I like most earlier entries into the series, or perhaps even more so. XV and VIIR at least have me with a strong faith in XVI, where I had lost a fair amount of interest after experiencing XI, XII, XIII, and XIV.
(yes, I know XIV has developed into something great, but it didn’t launch that way, and I know XII is considered a classic now, but for me, it just felt like a step in a direction I didn’t like after X… but what can I say? I’m a heathen that thinks IX is overrated and XV is one of the best entries).
Anyway, as I read about XVI, I feel it’s being developed with a good mindset to it. I feel like it’s understood what the fans appreciate in making this title, but they also want to push it to something decidedly next generation as well. Yoshida has definitely said the game is for adults that grew up with the series. I believe him and I hope he’s right because that’s exactly who I am.
As nostalgic as I am for turn based comment, just don't have the time for it anymore, plus I do prefer the faster action based combat.
Looking forward to this game very much so, though it's a shame they seem to also be getting rid of parties.
So give us a demo and let us find out before spending the money.
@Fight_Teza_Fight @Nalodart
Right I understand that Square wants mega blockbuster sales for FF as opposed to very successful sales like P5 did. The sales aspect wasn't the part that caught my attention.The part that made me think he said turn based is dying is this:
“It is also a fact that people are becoming less familiar with the old-fashioned style of RPGs, where you fight by selecting turn commands. That’s why the battles in Final Fantasy 16 are very action-based."
He is literally saying turn based combat is becoming foreign to the younger generation and to be fair he maybe right to an extent. However many folks that got into P5 never played an SMT game before. Heck I'm one of them although I've slowly began to remedy that ever since playing P5. That shows that yes like you guys said while it isn't a blockbuster seller it that doesn't mean it's as dead as it sounds like he is implying.
Another thing to keep in mind is this is a translation. Something might have been lost of course in said translation. I still like Yoshida he seems like a down to earth friendly guy.
If it was gonna be a good battle system they would never have to say its not for everybody. They messed up making it a dmc system
Turn based battle systems still have a place but only with some modern twists, in my opinion.
I 100% get where he is coming from. At the end of the day you have to make a product that will sell in the current climate but as a fan thats been with the series since FF2(4) on the SNES, it still makes me a bit sad to see this shift away from turn-based already completed in the industry. The RPGs of the Golden Era are long gone and won't be coming back.
But you know, at the end of the day I play FF for STORY and CHARACTERS and that is precisely where the series has really fallen in my opinion since 10. That's what they should be focusing thier efforts on regardless of battle system. I still think 9 was the pinnacle of the series. Great story, great characters that had proper arcs, satisfying ending, etc.
Anyway, if FF16 can deliver on a good story with good characters and satisfying exploration, I'll be happy. I've played my share of action RPGs and this style of combat can be really fun too so I'm willing to give it a solid chance.
As a side note, how freaking cool would it be if SE had two lines of FF games being developed at all times? Kind of like how Zelda and Mario both have 2D and 3D entries, both having different rules and expectations. One line could be new 3D FFs with all the newest gaming trends while the other line could be old school SNES or PS1 style turn based stories that were cheaper to develop?
@Korgon
Again I think he still may be right there, looking back at the amount of turn based jpgs even in the 90s compared to now.
The genre has become more niche for sure, not to say it doesn’t have an audience but compared to what it use to be it has died down considerably.
I'm fine with either old school turn based combat or FF15 combat. But anything in between is an absolute dealbreaker for me. E.g. ff13. I just find it hard to enjoy it.
@freddquadros Exactly. Even if this battle system is well made, it has to be integrated well too. For example, FF7Rs balance between old and new was cool, but that games story and exploration was so broken you never got to actually use it. I feel like there were like, a dozen battles in that entire game. Haha. To me, to make an FF tick, it has to have these things in order of importance:
1) Deep characters that you love and that have a proper arc.
2) A compelling, comprehensive story
3) Satisfying exploration and party management (not linear)
4) A fun battle system
I hope the dialog has no "uh", "hm" or other grunt sound played every 10 second, that would be a huge improvement.
Also a story that is expertly told and complete when the game is released (and not an updated game a year later to fill in all the holes but resulting in more holes) would be a win.
I expect non will be happening...
Judging by the comments this is a very marmite topic, same with when RGG announced Yakuza 7 being turn based rather than real time. I'm happy with any type of gameplay. As long as I'm drawn in by the characters and world building the gameplay no matter what type will just become second nature to me!
Tldr "we dumbed it down to chase the western Fortnite kid's big money because we haven't learned our lesson from when we tried that with 13"
Rip ff
Just typical modern sqeenix that pursues unit sales above the value of their own franchises, reinventing a franchise to a new genre every iteration in hopes of getting that Fortnite/cod/fifa/gta cash cow.
He says kids don't know command/turn based, meanwhile Xenoblade is topping charts, the world is hyped for persona again, and Pokemon eats the industry's lunch money year after year. I think it's farrier to say MOST kids know turn based/command.
"We designed this game for mass market viral sales potential first and foremost" isn't what you want to hear.
@Arisen
or imagine if Yakuza were a turn-based RPG. Oh, wait...
@NEStalgia Final Fantasy will never be that bad. Kids aren't interested in stories in games. They just want to shoot each other. It's all about the social aspect, at least from all the kids I know anyway. Always turn their nose up at the amazing games I try to introduce them to!
I still maintain the best combat system Final Fantasy ever offered was the Paradigm mechanics of 13… Ravager…absolutely glorious!!!
@Milktastrophe exactly what I liked about 13, the combat was so much more fluid yet still had a turn based element. Now it’s just garbage frankly
Looking like the first mainline final fantasy I won't won't be rushing out to buy straight away since 7 sadly.
Hope it enjoys its new audience I guess, /shrug
@invictus4000 I'd definately be up for some sort of sub series that is more like the older ones. I wouldn't even care if it wasn't big budget. I don't really play games to get amazed at the graphics any more.
I mean square could certainly do it, they are putting out great turn based games all the time.
It's always comforting when decisions are taken on the basis of profitability over artistic intent, isn't it?!
At least he was honest 🤷🏼♂️
@MightyDemon82 I honestly can't figure out the market. It's kind of obvious these companies can't either, as they race from trend to trend only for it to vanish and fail.
There's definitely that niche of social players where it has nothing to do with the game and is just a digital hangout space. But I'm not sure that's actually the market buying games at all, most of the is catered to in the f2p space and the big sports titles, cod etc. I'll never understand the"social" players... Games to be are an escape from social anything lol.
But this is just dripping with the same mistakes square made in the ps360 era of chasing the big western social game money with what they perceive the "kids today must like". They're pretty much directly saying the same is designed around business targets rather than the game they wanted to make or knew series fans wanted, but they also tried to make it not suck in the process. It's designed around what they believe the mass market probably likes rather than making the best final fantasy game they can make and convincing people why they should like it.
I hate soulsborne... But.... Imagine if from decided to make the next souls an action shooter because that's what the younger gamers and focus testing shows sells best...
I knew ff was dead... But.... It's really openly stating that they created a game to focus test well for the target market reach and then called it ff, rather than making a new ff. Which is standard for square anymore.
Meanwhile Xenoblade it's selling just fine with what ultimately is the evolution of the ATB.
My prediction, I know many will be stunned, is that despite this, this game will "underperform" with "sales that did not reach expectations."
@NEStalgia I need to play the Xenoblade games at some point. Saying FF is dead is a bit of a stretch though. My first was FFXV and I thought it was great, minus the bits cut and tacked on later approach. Since then I've played 7,9,10.1 and 7 remake and loved them all. Can't wait for remake part 2 and 16!
@Grimwood turn based still offers potential, strategy, customisation, variety than real time can hope to offer. You can give the players a list of options that they'd have no hope of processing in real time.
@ApostateMage loved like a dragon, but still wished Yakuza would have remained an action RPG and have the turn based gameplay in Judgement instead.
Y7 felt somewhat imbalanced where everything was a breeze until reaching Goro, Daigo and Kiryu. Had to lvl grind to get passed them.
@MightyDemon82 Yeah I'm in that small group that kind of liked xv as well .. Though it was very deeply flawed. I even like xiii. Kind of. But this new one seems to want to revisit the problem with xiii only even worse from everything we see about it. I'm more excited for crisis core remaster than 16 at this point.
@Ralizah Its only a one character game yeah that
will take some points away from it for me. I always different characters and styles that is why i love the older games. I still want Legend of Dragoon and Breath of Fire 4. 😁
Just... don't make the simplistic hold the button auto combat thing again.
@Shepherd_Tallon Thanks friend, I try 😁
Ultimately, I just want to play fun, exciting, borderline addictive videogames. Ok, maybe not that addictive, but still.
And in case of RPGs, eastern or western, they NEED to be fun, have engaging mechanics and interesting narrative and characters, since we are supposed to play them for dozens of hours on end.
As for the FFXVI OST, in Masayoshi Soken I fully trust.
Cheers, stay safe and all the best
@ErrantRob Hi there friend.
Yes, the Yakuza series is a godd example of a traditional real time action rpg, that decided to try something new with the latest entry and it was really good. Some people even prefer that particular style and that´s why they got the game. Who says that a game needs to be the exact same over and over?
Videogames, just like everything else, need to evolve and change. Of course, not so much that they lose their identity completely, but if the developers don´t try something different, then why even bother? Another example is God of War 2018. With was a big change in mechanics and storytelling and people LOVED the game from beginning to finish.
I know I did and I can´t wait for the sequel in November.
Oh, and I´m also currently playing and enjoying very much so Triagle Strategy on my Switch. It just sractches my itch for a turn based strategy game as well as medieval type story, wich is another reason I´m excited for FFXVI.
Good things are coming to those that patiently wait for them.
Cheers, stay safe and all the best
I like turn-based combat, I like action combat, but ATB combat has always been an awful comprise between the two. I'll take FFX (full-turn based) or FFVII Remake over ATB any day.
I have never been a fan of turn based combat and prefer my action to occur in real time so I am personally glad the FF series has gone real time as the past games I want to enjoy for the story and setting have turned me off with the combat. That and I also suck at turn based on top of disliking it.
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